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Livesey



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The B&O Sword Lesson of the Day Reply to this Post
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As a service to the Diamond Archipelago, the Bang and Olafson ironmonger is pleased to present a collection of tips and lessons about the most.

First, links to some already available resources:
The Alpha documentation on swordfighting
The Mad Mutineer's explanation of sword patterns
The Mad Mutineer's list of sword patterns by sword type
[size=9]If the Mad Mutineer's links aren't correct, just go to the Mad Mutineers main page and search for "Sword patterns on display" and "Swordfighting patterns explained".

These tips will often be targetted at new players, so some of the days' tips will be pretty basic. My goal is to help new players understand how to improve their game, instead of just getting frustrated.

And if you're shopping for a new sword, don't forget to check to prices on Turtle! You might save a bundle.
----------------------------------------
-Hethor
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[Edit 5 times, last edit by Livesey at Jun 12, 2003 3:11:51 AM]
[Jun 12, 2003 3:11:51 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Livesey



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That darn rotation! Reply to this Post
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Today's tip is something I just learned about myself last night. How many times have you lived or died based on which way the piece rotated? Especially when trying to slide a piece around a corner, being able to predict how the current piece will rotate can be vital.

As the pair is falling, notice that one of the pieces is outlined in white. This piece is the center of rotation! This is also the piece that was on the bottom in the preview.



If you're wondering what I meant by slide it around a corner, you can turn a piece through a 90-degree bend if you turn it the correct way (the short way, so the piece would end up in open space.) This definitely takes a lot of practice, but it can really help against certain patterns.
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-Hethor
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Livesey at Jun 12, 2003 3:51:28 AM]
[Jun 12, 2003 3:51:28 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Re: The B&O Sword Lesson of the Day Reply to this Post
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Off-topic, but this works the same way in sailing. It can be the difference between clearing and booching.
[Jun 12, 2003 5:28:58 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
Livesey



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Sword selection Reply to this Post
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When choosing a sword (I'll be doing other tips on different swords), find someone that owns the sword you are considering purchasing and go several rounds with them. Just looking at the patterns on the Mad Mutineers site doesn't do some of the patterns justice. Do not, for example, say the scimitar would make big blocks on the opponents screen until you have fought one and gotten big blocks.

I own one of most swords, and am always happy to let people get a feel for them when I'm in my shop.

As for what I currently use, I've got a falchion and a scimitar I switch between.
----------------------------------------
-Hethor
[Jun 15, 2003 5:05:05 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Meghaford



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Re: The B&O Sword Lesson of the Day Reply to this Post
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All things Metal is happy to introduce Ursela, Greatest* Swordswench in the Diamond Archipelago, who will be happy to show you what any of the various swords patterns look like on the recieving end (Currently excluding the Poinard and Cleaver which no one can make currently) She has also been practising with each of the various swords extensively (see her experience rating) and will be happy to reccommend a blade to ye based on your needs and available Poe.

Msg her online, or let Duncan know, and he will try to contact her via. more mundane methods.


* some might contest Ursela as the greatest Swordswench, but they're likely to be staring into the end o her blade when she finds out who :)
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--Ursela, Captain of the Dastards
... and a few others ...
[Jun 15, 2003 12:31:13 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.rjmlb.com [Link]  Go to top 
akebia



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Re: The B&O Sword Lesson of the Day Reply to this Post
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Meghaford wrote: 
* some might contest Ursela as the greatest Swordswench, but they're likely to be staring into the end o her blade when she finds out who :)


Oh, oh, me! Me!
[Jun 15, 2003 1:10:25 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LionFish



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Sword Fighting Reply to this Post
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I have read both the Alpha doc and some of your posts.
I understand how to build blocks to create swords and then shatter then to strike blows against your opponant.

However, I am not understanding the pattern info that everyone is posting about. Could someone explain the paterns, how, what and why? Please.
[Jun 23, 2003 1:47:33 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LonesomeCrow



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Re: Sword Fighting Reply to this Post
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LionFish wrote: 
However, I am not understanding the pattern info that everyone is posting about. Could someone explain the paterns, how, what and why? Please.


Did ye follow the links from the first post?

Livesey wrote: 
First, links to some already available resources:
The Alpha documentation on swordfighting
The Mad Mutineer's explanation of sword patterns
The Mad Mutineer's list of sword patterns by sword type


----------------------------------------
Tarrna: [Insignificant] Senior Officer - Sinking Feelings

Sergio Aragones wrote: 


[Jun 23, 2003 1:56:56 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Livesey



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The basic double Reply to this Post
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Here's a screenshot of an early setup from a game vs an npp. I was mainly focusing on getting the left side set up the way I wanted it, so the right side is a... ah.. challenging setup. But that gives me an opportunity to discuss what to do with it.



On the left we have one of your basic doubles. This is a sprinkly double: it will make one 1x4 sword and one row of sprinklies. I personally feel that the 1x4 sword is grossly undervalued by most swordsplayers. Sending over three 1x4's can be a lot more brutal than a 2x8.

So how did I set it up?

First, I knew from playing this npp before that their foil pattern was blue green yellow on the bottom. When I got a blue+green piece, I added it to the blue setup with green-side down. This both exposes the blue to a breaker, and protects the green from a small sword which only cuts one deep. I didn't put it on the far left because that's where the most common sprinkle drop is, and I wanted the sprinkles to connect the blue regions together.

I happen to be firing this off with a blue breaker I got very early in the game, instead of waiting for a blue breaker to be dealt to me. This setup is not something you should rely on; one sprinkle brick would make that breaker unreachable. That blue breaker/green breaker piece has been stuck in the middle for get-lucky combos. As the name implies, this backfires as often as it does good things. This is why to keep as much of the blue exposed as possible. (I would break that extra green breaker to keep the blue togther if that presented itself before the blue breaker.)

Tomorrow I'll go over the right side, just to make this a little bit more bite-sized :)
----------------------------------------
-Hethor
[Jun 24, 2003 7:13:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Livesey



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More advanced placement strategies Reply to this Post
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As promised, here is part two of the lesson. Here's the board after that blue / yellow fell and the basic double went off.



So now let's look at the right side.

I said before, this is a much more difficult setup. Why? There are a lot of different groups here, and the pieces in the bottom corner are very difficult to get to. It pretty much requires a combo to clear it. But there's still room to maneuver. At this stage, you have to think to yourself, "How do I break this up?" If your thought is, "I need a yellow breaker", then you're not looking far enough ahead.

We're going to keep getting yellow, so that's going to be the color to base the combo on. Breaking the yellow exposes red and blue.

The first thing I see is the blue block. So we need a blue breaker on top of the yellow. So yellow will break, then that blue block will get out of our way. Double. The problem here is that sword that just fell. It's going to be two colors, probably yellow/blue or yellow/green, depending on which direction this npp's foil goes. Either way, it's going to make breaking that blue piece hard. This is a part of why the setup is bad.

Let's assume that happens, for a second. That will expose a yellow breaker. So if we can isolate a yellow brick on top of the blue breaker, that will make a triple. This is unlikely since yellow is dropping on that side. Breaking the yellow breaker exposes a red breaker. Triple.

If a red block follows the yellow block, then all the red on that side goes off, and that side is basically cleaned up. Breaking the red will cause the green block to fall on to the green breaker: Donkey.

Instead of that risky approach, we can try to put a red breaker up there--back to the basic double. This may seem to waste the red breaker in the corner, but this isn't a bad idea, since the changes of getting the donkey are pretty small. And in fact, breaking the red is itself a double, so breaking it this way makes it a triple, and cleans up the board nicely.

So here's what I would plan to do. First that yellow needs to be remain connected, by sprinkle and by direct intervention. Once a red breaker shows up, it should be set on the yellow over the red below. At this point, it's worthwhile to break the yellow (a triple, but it won't be a huge attack), since it gives much better board position and the setup is consuming quite a bit of space. If you get lucky, he correct double-breaker can also make this a bingo by using what the 1x4 just put down.

I don't mean to make this sound easy. Learning to read ahead and plan quickly will almost certainly improve your game.
----------------------------------------
-Hethor
[Jun 25, 2003 1:25:16 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Livesey



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Did that hurt? Reply to this Post
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Everyone knows that you should make combos, but I don't know how many of you know what the combos actually do for you.

As has been posted before, singles send over half of the sprinklies (that's the 'technical' term for single blocks not part of a solid group). Doubles double that (so they send over all the sprinklies you broke), triples send three times as much (so one and a half times as many as your broke), etc.

The swords are made from 'solid' blocks: groups of same-color blocks in a rectangle which darken and form a solid group. I've done some experimenting recently, and this is how I currently believe swords to work:

[edit]
A 2x2 solid block sends over a 1x4 sword as a single, and grows to a 2x4 sword when doubled. 2x2's can be a powerful force.

Larger blocks make vertical or horizontal swords based on the orientation of the solid block. A 2x3 will send a two-wide vertical sword, a 3x2 will send a 2-tall horizontal sword.

Combos grow the sword. A 2x4 which is tripled will send a sword nearly the height of the board!

As you can see, in general you're better off forming more swords than big swords. Just doubling three 2x3 blocks will drop swords all across the board, taking up half of their board! Whereas the triple a 2x9, and you'll just make one screen-high sword on the edge of the board, where it probably won't entirely fit and will be much easier to send back.

[edit] Disaster pointed out to me that I was wrong on how combos work.
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-Hethor
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Livesey at Jun 27, 2003 8:55:10 AM]
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Rengor



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Re: The B&O Sword Lesson of the Day Reply to this Post
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Some seriously good tips there Hethor *tips his hat*

I remember watching you test for some of these conclusions. What were the conclusions on the effect of doubles and triples on blocks? how much do they gain in size exactly?
----------------------------------------
-= SilverBeard of The Mad Mutineers =-
--=== www.madmutineers.com ===--
[Jun 27, 2003 9:13:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Penndalla

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Re: The B&O Sword Lesson of the Day Reply to this Post
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Silverbeard, don't go takin' the wind from future lessons! He's gonna have to start givin' ye homework to keep ye occupied between classes!
----------------------------------------
Pennsuedo

My art: http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all
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crowsdiamond

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Re: The B&O Sword Lesson of the Day Reply to this Post
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Hethor-- Is it a website problem, or did the Mutineers remove the sword pattern pictures on purpose? I wanted to show them to me boy, Drizzt, but can no do so now... is there somwhere else where they be?

Oh, and Cap'n Penn, if ye happen ta read this, could ya reload that one pic on the RL forum? it will no show up on me puter anymore. :(


thankee!!
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~Faile
Once Captain of the Mighty PPA
Once Captain of the Falcon's Fury
Now Unretired and ready to KILL!!

Just point me to what you want dead, an' I'll kill it. Or die trying!
[Jul 3, 2003 11:15:04 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Crowsdiamond [Link]  Go to top 
garf



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Re: The B&O Sword Lesson of the Day Reply to this Post
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what kind of sword will be sent by a 3x3 block? i dont think i've seen a 3x3 sword fall on me yet. basic question is - horizontal or vertical?
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- Randal

[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
[Jul 3, 2003 9:13:10 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
Livesey



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Re: The B&O Sword Lesson of the Day Reply to this Post
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I believe the 3x3 sends a 2x4 (vertical)
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-Hethor
[Jul 4, 2003 5:47:25 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
uzi



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Awesome! Reply to this Post
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I think if I read this a few more times I can learn even more. I try to read all I can on swords since it is how I make me POE out in the sea.
Thank you fer every minute you spent puttting this together. If it helped one player I hope you feel it was worth your time. The screen shots help too, since I am never sure if I am setting my puzzle up right.
Now if I could just get my hands, eyes, and brain all work together, maybe I could rise above respected.

Thanks again for taking the time to post this complete with pictures.
----------------------------------------
Still hanging 10 through life and looking for the endless summmer.
[Jul 7, 2003 10:25:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Livesey



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A bit more on patterns Reply to this Post
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Crows Diamond: Heh, will you look at that! Not only didn't my links work, but I linked the same page twice! I've updated the links.

And while we're on this topic, I figure I'll go the drop pattern of swords (not sprinkles) a bit more in depth, since it's pretty confusing. The following are my observations, and are subject to change and human error. (This is really just a repost of the mad mutineers page, with a different sample sword and an update.)

Borrowing the piece images from the mad mutineers, let's look at a mean looking sword, the poinard:

[size=7]
[size=7]
[size=7]
[size=7]

A lone 2x4 sword (not sent with any other swords), regardless of where it's broken, will fall on the side (though not neccessarily the very edge, especially in combos.) I'm not sure how it's chosen whether it's the left or right side. Break two two-side swords, they will fall on the left and right side. Only if you break three swords will you get a sword down the middle.

The colors in the resulting sword depend on where it falls. Think of the board as being tiled in your opponents sword pattern:

[size=7]
[size=7]
[size=7]
[size=7]
[size=7]
[size=7]
[size=7]
[size=7]
[size=7]
[size=7]
[size=7]
[size=7]
[size=7]

That's right, the tiling is mirrored from that of the sprinkles! The colors that will appear in a particular sword are the colors in the left-most column in the tiling where that sword appears.

So that means if you make a 2x6 sword with the above poinard, and it draws from column 2 (meaning it sits in columns 2 and 3), and it stops one block from the bottom, it will become this:
[size=7]
[size=7]
[size=7]
[size=7]
[size=7]
[size=7]

So this helps evaluate the different swords strengths and weaknesses. How often the colors change and group at the bottom of the pattern determines a sword's sprinkle strength. How many colors, and how tall each color is, determines a sword's vertical sword strength. Same goes for rows and horizontal swords. So you see the foil is a fairly balanced weapon. Three sprinkle colors, and every sword is two colors. The shortsword is an excellent sprinkle weapon, but its swords are terrible.

[edit] Silverbeard pointed out that I hadn't tested swords landing at different heights, so I'd missed the effect on the pattern.
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-Hethor
[Jul 7, 2003 11:17:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
jollyroger23



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Re: A bit more on patterns Reply to this Post
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Livesey wrote: 

So that means if you make a 2x6 sword with the above poinard, and it draws from column 2 (meaning it sits in columns 2 and 3), and it stops one block from the bottom, it will become this:
[size=7]
[size=7]
[size=7]
[size=7]
[size=7]
[size=7]
.


That makes no sense, and i dont think its true.

Heres how i think it works:
Picture the pattern stacked in the backround of your board. Wherever a sword happens to land, it will change to the backround color (your stacked pattern).

So a foil stacked would look something like this:

BBRRYY
BBRRYY
YYBBRR
YYBBRR
BBRRYY
BBRRYY
YYBBRR
YYBBRR

And if a swords lands here (marked by bold)

BBRRYY
BBRRYY
YYBBRR
YYBBRR
BBRRYY
BBRRYY
YYBBRR
YYBBRR

Then it will change to those blocks.

BB
YY
YY


It matches to the pattern, or 'backround'.

I THINK, I MAY BE WRONG.
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-Tob
[Jul 8, 2003 5:59:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Hanzii



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Re: The B&O Sword Lesson of the Day Reply to this Post
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I think Hethor just made a small mistake misplacing one green brick.
----------------------------------------
Hanzii - shipbuilder (retired), Turtle
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garf



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Re: The B&O Sword Lesson of the Day Reply to this Post
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no. what you explained, tob, was what everyone thought it was working like. thats why hethor posted..

check this: http://www.madmutineers.com/viewtopic.php?t=106

and explain the results with the old theory if you dont believe it.
----------------------------------------
- Randal

[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
[Jul 8, 2003 6:55:18 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
Hanzii



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Ah, got it.
It takes one column and doubles it... making the poinard a wee bit less mean.

...Unless you try to think about this stuff, then the brainfreeze that ensues would make me loose everytime.
I like my dirk and its amazing sprinklepower against unsuspecting pirates.
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Hanzii - shipbuilder (retired), Turtle
[Jul 8, 2003 7:20:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.lauring.net [Link]  Go to top 
jollyroger23



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Re: The B&O Sword Lesson of the Day Reply to this Post
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Hanzii wrote: 

I like my dirk and its amazing sprinklepower against unsuspecting pirates.


hah. The dirk might as well only throw 2 colors.

Anyway, untill i see some screenshots, with context and explanation of mirroring and all this nonsense, i think im right.
----------------------------------------
-Tob
[Jul 8, 2003 7:24:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Livesey



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Some pirates are still having a hard time visualizing how this combo stuff works, so I snapped some combos as I was about to fire them off.





[size=9]Sorry my images were down for awhile. The web server moved but my directory didn't get copied.
----------------------------------------
-Hethor
[Aug 15, 2003 1:39:57 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
akebia



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See, that's the difference between me and Hethor. He snaps a screenshot, while I pause the game to shout "Timber!"
[Aug 16, 2003 5:04:29 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
uzi



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I think the day my sword fighting view looks that neat and orderly is the day I finally think I can consistently do better.
Thanks again for the updates.
Thanks also for the practice sessions last night, Hethor. Is alway a pleasure to Dye for you.
----------------------------------------
Still hanging 10 through life and looking for the endless summmer.
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Jaghond



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Looking at the screenshots I am thankful to see that there be an even spread along the board. When playing NPPs I always see their setups stacked on the edges and low, almost down to the scuppers in the middle.

This's caused me to worry that I been doing it all wrong, but I can see that there be no major mistakes. Just need to improve on setting the combos.

Thank ye Hethor.
----------------------------------------
Jaghond
_________________

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[Aug 16, 2003 9:12:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
garf



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these are good examples to discuss a bit more what the combos do.

the first of those will do the following:

2 1x4 and 1 2x4 sword from the yellow, 1 6x2, 3 (notice that there will be another blue block on the right when the yellow is gone) 2x4 swords from the blue.

add to this a small number of sprinkles.

but.. most of the vertical swords are likely wasted. the sword placement is still a mystery, but it can be considered a fact that "too many" swords dont combine into one larger. i would think it is well possible that the sword placement algorithm will keep the entry column free even with that many swords, and i dont think that swords are prioritised by size. so versus players, this attack might be large, but likely not killing. it *would* instakill a semi-filled npp, though, me thinks, since npps dont receive attacks the same way a player does - i dont think there is anything "wasted".


the second screenshots attack will create one 2x4 sword from the yellow and one 2x9 sword from the red, plus a small number of sprinkles.

so while the second combo sure looks a lot less potent, it might well end up in having nearly the same effect versus a player as the first one.
----------------------------------------
- Randal

[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
[Aug 16, 2003 11:54:24 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
Livesey



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For me, at least, how evenly I fill my board depends greatly on the kind of sword I'm fighting. Having two towers is very useful, as it's much harder to block your break-spot, and I tend to have them when my board is half full (but not so much when my board is empty like the npps.)
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-Hethor
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wolfger



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I followed the links from the first post, and there's no strike patterns to be found. Anybody know where I can find a collection of strike patterns to show my newbie crew members?
----------------------------------------
Wolfger
SO of the Diamond Dogs
Lord of the flag No Homers
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