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margara

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Re: Were we wrong?

Here's how I see all of this:

The event group says somebody cheated and therefore is not entitled to the full prize package.

The event group states that someone cheated but came in 3rd place and gave them part of the prize regardless.

What should have happened here folks is that they should have disqualifed the 3rd place finisher for cheating and given the 3rd place prize package to the next eligible finisher. They didn't do that.

Bridalgirl to this moment is still the publically stated 3rd place finisher in the event. The event stated that the 3rd place finisher would receive the 3rd place prize package.

The time to rule on whether she cheated or not was either during the event or before prizes were handed out. Not here.

The bottom line is somebody out there is still owed 5K, a trinket and possibly a fish.

Margara
[Jul 14, 2006 10:01:02 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
BenjeminR

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Re: Were we wrong?

 
 
Just because the mechanics of their event didn't block it doesn't make it right.

Just because their method gave them an advantage doesn't mean it's wrong.



The action itself is wrong as we have been informed by those who planned the event. However bridal has informed us she did not know at the time she was doing something wrong.



if we were to go by ringer standards for this we would be forced to agree that the event planners can do whatever they like with the prizes and enforce rules that were not in writing before an event occured.

ie. Taking back of placed shop deeds after an island was lost in blockade
The banning of certain players and many more i am sure
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Legacee
[Jul 14, 2006 10:10:41 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
PogoBeta

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Re: Were we wrong?

Okay, semantics, common sense, and loophole-exploits aside:

Bottom freaking line:

90 percent of what has been said so far is rationale and counterexamples.

Bridalgirl did not follow the intended rules.
Bridalgirl did follow the rules which were posted.

We understand that while "spirit of the game", "fairness", and "common sense" are all implied, they are all often ignored.

Based solely on the point of "Not expressly stating that using undeclared outside help is forbidden means that it is perfectly legal", we can, in good conscience, give Bridalgirl the poe and the coal. This will most likely happen. This does not change our collective opinion on the matter, but based on the rules that were declared, most of us agree that it is the fair thing to do.

(EDIT: Request fulfilled. SJ will likely not be Trading the prizes to Bridalgirl, just as she stated earlier. Her "not liking" Bridalgirl affected her personally dealing with her, not the issue of making good on the deal.)

Obviously nobody is going to change their minds about what is right or what is fair, so we are, in terms of resolving this issue, going to leave it to what is in keeping our word.


(Edit: Thank you Thews for showing me where the quote was located. SJ will not be giving Bridalgirl the prizes, as she said. As this issue has become quite heated, she will probably be transferring the prizes through a third party.)
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Pogo on Midnight

I used to have an avatar shop
for someone this washed up, you'd think i'd be a little cleaner...
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by PogoBeta at Jul 14, 2006 10:35:55 PM]
[Jul 14, 2006 10:14:57 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Thews



Joined: Dec 8, 2005
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Re: Were we wrong?

better said in PM

Ye got mail for quote Pogo
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Thews at Jul 14, 2006 10:18:22 PM]
[Jul 14, 2006 10:17:15 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Thews



Joined: Dec 8, 2005
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Re: Were we wrong?

 


Bridalgirl did not follow the intended rules.
Bridalgirl did follow the rules which were posted.


This is true.

And ultimatly it seems like the wrong people are arguing against bridal. It should be the next person who was entitled to the 3rd place prize who should be complaining, if they feel there is something to complain about.

The event hosts are not out anything if they give bridal the prize. They were always planning on giving out a 3rd place prize. She didnt harm them in any way.
[Jul 14, 2006 10:26:51 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Thews



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Re: Were we wrong?

 


Bridalgirl did not follow the intended rules.
Bridalgirl did follow the rules which were posted.
.


And one more important question, do you think bridal was following the rules as SHE THOUGHT they were intended?

Because is seems clear to me that bridal thought she was following all the rules.
[Jul 14, 2006 10:30:08 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Evilosity

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Re: Were we wrong?

I got second place in this contest and I didn't have a team helping me. Heck, if I did, I would have taken first, I'm sure. If the pirate in question had only helped out other mates after she had won 3rd on her own, I would say give her the prizes and the others get nothing, but obviously that wasn't the case. I think the contest was run very fairly also, as I didnt even know of it before hand and found out about 2 minutes before it started from a hearty in DJ. I was sent a tell during the event that I needed to find Smee as well(I got Smee pretty early too, as I think i still had 3 or so more pirates to find after I got him). I had no clue what the rules were, but the thought never even entered my mind that teams would be allowed.

Edit: In fact, I got several tells from different people telling me to find Smee, even after I did.
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Blackwood - Diabolical SO of Unknown Pleasures of the flag Nub Sauce.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Evilosity at Jul 14, 2006 10:44:29 PM]
[Jul 14, 2006 10:41:55 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
catennismom

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Re: Were we wrong?

It seems very clearly to me that (as said before) Bridaldirl was following the rules listed. The fact that the no teams rule wasn't on there could lead anyone to believ you could have a team if you would like help. And not to mention (again as others have said) it IS greenie weekend and im pretty sure a greenie would ask for help from anyone they knew. So, thereofre, (according to me) Bridalgirl should indeed get the rest of the prizes since she was already given at least one of them.
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Katterina on Midnight
Wanderer of Crews
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by catennismom at Jul 14, 2006 10:48:41 PM]
[Jul 14, 2006 10:48:05 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
PogoBeta

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Re: Were we wrong?

People aren't necessarily going "against" Bridalgirl. They are voicing their opinions on the issue. The same thing could be said about the people who are going "against" Dark Judgement (or Shortyjack, for that matter, since some people still think this was all her decision). You disagreeing with them doesn't mean they aren't subject to participate. I happen to disagree with a number of previous posters, but i don't deny them right to participate.

It has been established that Bridalgirl "thought she was following all the rules", because the only significant defense on the issue was "you guys didn't say we weren't allowed".

This is also not a matter of DJ feeling we were "cheated out of what is rightfully ours". It was originally a matter of whether the full amount of the prize should be awarded to Bridalgirl or to another party. The prize was intended to be given to some participant no matter what

If it was ultimately established that it was not "fair" for Bridalgirl to receive the prize, another person would have received it.

The issue of Smellysmee not being announced as one of the hiders was already addressed. In keeping track of which seeker had found which hider, we established that Smellysmee would not (and ultimately did not) have any effect on the outcome. The event was "scored" as if Smellysmee was not participating, and this did not change the order of the winners.
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Pogo on Midnight

I used to have an avatar shop
for someone this washed up, you'd think i'd be a little cleaner...
[Jul 14, 2006 10:48:59 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Thews



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Re: Were we wrong?

 


If it was ultimately established that it was not "fair" for Bridalgirl to receive the prize, another person would have received it.


Gotcha, didnt know this was the case.
[Jul 14, 2006 10:56:22 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Peanutswench

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Re: Were we wrong?

Myfavoritesliceofsweetiepie wrote: 
Your game, your rules, you get to decide what rules were implied. End of story.


Sweeite, as always, is dead on. There is no way an event planner can find EVERY loophole and close it. It isn't possible, and it shouldn't be expected.

Just because she didn't spell out for you something that a rational person would find at the very least shady, doesn't mean you are free to do it. An event planner has the obligation to weigh the evidence they are provided and act accordingly. They must judge if a reasonable person would understand that X was a rule violation. If you don't care for how they do it... do not enter their contest. They are the referee. They make the call. This happens in real life too. When you enter a contest, you do so knowing who is running it and giving implied permission to them to judge.

Now to go into detail about this case.... I feel that the event planners actually attempted to do what they saw to be fair. The fact that you admit you were working with a group in hopes of splitting the individual prizes tells my you probably had a clue that they weren't GROUP prizes.

It doesn't matter that others could cheat in the same way through tells. That's like saying, "gee shoplifting must not be bad because others who do it in a more stealthy way get away with it." When you push the limits, don't expect to always get away with it.

I believe the compromise of offering her the fish was fair. The fact that she mentioned she would pay her people for their time tells me she never had the intention of working solo. To a reasonable person the event looks like it is a solo deal. Even the prizes are not conducive to group efforts. Don't let this discourage you. For every vocal person who tarts about your event, there are always dozens of people who loved it and sadly keep silent.
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Peanutswench
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[Jul 14, 2006 11:14:48 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shorty_Jack

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Re: Were we wrong?

 
Here's how I see all of this:

The event group says somebody cheated and therefore is not entitled to the full prize package.

The event group states that someone cheated but came in 3rd place and gave them part of the prize regardless.

What should have happened here folks is that they should have disqualifed the 3rd place finisher for cheating and given the 3rd place prize package to the next eligible finisher. They didn't do that.

Bridalgirl to this moment is still the publically stated 3rd place finisher in the event. The event stated that the 3rd place finisher would receive the 3rd place prize package.

The time to rule on whether she cheated or not was either during the event or before prizes were handed out. Not here.

The bottom line is somebody out there is still owed 5K, a trinket and possibly a fish.

Margara

I haven't read everything posted below yours and I thought about doing as you said this is the problem I came into. Denying Bridalgirl would have sent the prize to the 4th place winner which was someone Bridalgirl helped find. So I disqualify them too?

First and second place pretty much won themselves however, 3rd - 6th was very close. After Bridal won the 4th place winner found 2 people in 2 min. Kind of hard to do without help wouldn't you say? So the ranks from 3rd down did matter who won what.

The prizes I gave out weren't orginally going to be given out they were bonuses. As flaggies, hearties, and every mate that worked on this event. No one knew I was going to give out prizes to the other entries I just did, it wasn't planned. Bridal if you want a foil come see me, hell I'll give you 3 of them. (oh now there goes my swearing)

Also, I'm not "not giving" her the prize because I don't like her. I wasn't giving her the prize because it was a decision made by all. I recently decided I don't like her because of somethings that were said. Such as this was a waste of time. Running these events I get nothing out of it. Is it a waste of time for me? No, not if everyone is having fun. However, this is not the case. Mates aren't happy meaning my planning and saving poe and such are a waste of time. So I'm in the same boat with you on wasting my time Bridal.

As for hide and seek rules, I've actually never played team hide and seek. However, those rules are interesting, but I don't see pointing out rules for another version of the game imply here.

I have taken all the advice here, but I'm not running anymore events. I mainly did it because I'm always hearing people complain about how there aren't any events or we want more familiars. Tough. You want them you run the events from now on.

As for the 5k and the lump of coal, I do plan on giving it out somehow at least the trinket. The 5k was my hard earned poe and if I want to keep it that's my decision, however I recieved these trinkets to give them out not to keep them to myself.

Sorry if I didn't address all of the posts that have been written most of them I can't understand. So I'm leaving the way to give out the lump of coal to Annaleese. We may just throw it in a tourny or what not who knows.

-Shortyjack
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Shortyjack of the Midnight Ocean
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[Jul 14, 2006 11:18:02 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    silversleak [Link]  Go to top 
Thews



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Re: Were we wrong?

The point comes up againg about what a rational person would do... and I have said it before, and I dont really want to say it any more but i am going to.

There are plenty of rational people who grew up playing hide and seek working with other people when it was to their advantage. I did. I like to think of myself as rational. It seems that other people here did too.

If I beleived that everyone grew up playing hide and seek not working together, then I would say there is no argument here. But a lot of us did. And it doesnt seem fair to penalize people for that.

No, the prizes are not set up for groups, so if you choose to seek help, you will get less... unless your help wants to help because it seems like a nice thing to do.
[Jul 14, 2006 11:22:01 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Thews



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Re: Were we wrong?

 

If it was ultimately established that it was not "fair" for Bridalgirl to receive the prize, another person would have received it.



So, whats the story here? From what i see above this is not the case.
[Jul 14, 2006 11:25:17 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tarajayne

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Re: Were we wrong?

 

First and second place pretty much won themselves however, 3rd - 6th was very close. After Bridal won the 4th place winner found 2 people in 2 min. Kind of hard to do without help wouldn't you say? So the ranks from 3rd down did matter who won what.


Ok first of all, I believe there was what, 10 hiders? and you told me that the 1st and 2nd place people found all of them in the first 20 minutes, alone with out help. If that's true, it's very possible to find 2 people in 2 minutes. In fact I even did this myself, there were 2 people hiding like right next to each other almost.
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Bridalgirl

I get around.
[Jul 14, 2006 11:29:12 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shorty_Jack

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Re: Were we wrong?

 
The point comes up againg about what a rational person would do... and I have said it before, and I dont really want to say it any more but i am going to.

There are plenty of rational people who grew up playing hide and seek working with other people when it was to their advantage. I did. I like to think of myself as rational. It seems that other people here did too.

If I beleived that everyone grew up playing hide and seek not working together, then I would say there is no argument here. But a lot of us did. And it doesnt seem fair to penalize people for that.

No, the prizes are not set up for groups, so if you choose to seek help, you will get less... unless your help wants to help because it seems like a nice thing to do.

Ok, I get your viewpoint now what if Bridal didn't have help? Maybe someone who wasn't helping her got 3rd? As I stated before 3rd - 6th place were all very close. Some even being late entries.

If you were really threaten by me letting people in late (which penalized them from you starting earlier), you should tell me. I in no way broke those rules. In fact the people that entered late got a huge disadvantage. And to add, there were people who "found" the hiders that weren't even on my list? I wonder how I explain that.

As for me waiting til after the event, well blame all the stupid questions on that. The topic came up in /fo chat. Me being bombarded by tells, /fo chat, /crew chat, and house chat, did you really expect me to stop (esp the tells with who found who) and explain what you were doing is wrong and that's not how I wanted this to be played? So I give you the lump of coal, I would like to know how it can be split 5 ways. Oh you mean the poe, well that still means the fish and lump of coal go to someone. Either way, these prizes weren't meant to be split.
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Shortyjack of the Midnight Ocean
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[Jul 14, 2006 11:31:17 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    silversleak [Link]  Go to top 
Shorty_Jack

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Re: Were we wrong?

 
 

First and second place pretty much won themselves however, 3rd - 6th was very close. After Bridal won the 4th place winner found 2 people in 2 min. Kind of hard to do without help wouldn't you say? So the ranks from 3rd down did matter who won what.


Ok first of all, I believe there was what, 10 hiders? and you told me that the 1st and 2nd place people found all of them in the first 20 minutes, alone with out help. If that's true, it's very possible to find 2 people in 2 minutes. In fact I even did this myself, there were 2 people hiding like right next to each other almost.


I do know who you are talking about but the people the 4th place winner found so fast were the last two people to be found anywhere. They had decent hiding spots and people were having trouble finding them.

Also, the 4th place winner found 3 people they didn't find anyone for a long time. They started finding people very quickly. Yes, it could be done, however, Pogo was hidden very well as you know. Several people walked past him numerous times. You walked up to him to show the 4th place winner where he was. So I disqualify you and give the prize to him?
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Shortyjack of the Midnight Ocean
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[Jul 14, 2006 11:34:37 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    silversleak [Link]  Go to top 
tarajayne

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Re: Were we wrong?

I would also like to point out if you go back to her original screenshot, her mates agreed to give the trinket but not the poe or fish, but then she changed it.


Anyway, the way for us to split up our trinket and fish would be our problem, not yours. If you must know, the plans were to add it on to our wedding raffle prizes of which the poe is going to our flag.
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Bridalgirl

I get around.
[Jul 14, 2006 11:35:56 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Peanutswench

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Re: Were we wrong?

 
No, the prizes are not set up for groups, so if you choose to seek help, you will get less... unless your help wants to help because it seems like a nice thing to do.


So as a rational person... you can tell that the prizes are indeed intended for one person. Thus it is most likely that this is an individual event. It doesn't matter what you have played in your past... this is about an event that clearly has a solo prize. Given that information, it's clear that it is probably a solo event. In the end, no evet planner can catch all the "what if I played a game kinda like this differently growing up" loopholes. They are within their rights to decide that a person wasn't following the spirit of the event. If not, no event will ever be run because no one can close every single loophole.

Also, please note that her defence isn't that she always played hide and seek as a group. She says that she has tried to do it solo in the past and lost (thus meaning her first instinct is solo). This was an attempt to gain an advantage. I won't vilify her because she didn't violate a defined rule, but she did push the limits. When you do that you run the risk of it not playing out in your favor.
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Peanutswench
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[Jul 14, 2006 11:36:08 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shorty_Jack

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Re: Were we wrong?

 
I would also like to point out if you go back to her original screenshot, her mates agreed to give the trinket but not the poe or fish, but then she changed it.


Anyway, the way for us to split up our trinket and fish would be our problem, not yours. If you must know, the plans were to add it on to our wedding raffle prizes of which the poe is going to our flag.

Correction: I did not change it reread it again, others told me to just give you the fish. My intent was to give you the trinket however, with Aim being up I got ims from those stating you should just give her the fish. That's what I did.

For those that know me, they know I am a fair and trustworthy person. They know I wouldn't just do that because I wanted too. They also know if a group decision was made I wouldn't just change my mind and give you something else.
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Shortyjack of the Midnight Ocean
Avatar Shoppe
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Shorty_Jack at Jul 14, 2006 11:40:42 PM]
[Jul 14, 2006 11:39:51 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    silversleak [Link]  Go to top 
tarajayne

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Re: Were we wrong?

Alright well hey I was just going by the screenshot. It shows 2 people agreeing to give the trinket, and one saying justt give the fish.

I was not talking about playing hide and go seek before, I was saying similar events. Like I said, so long ago I can't remember. I'll try and dig up some old threads.
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Bridalgirl

I get around.
[Jul 14, 2006 11:43:27 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Thews



Joined: Dec 8, 2005
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Re: Were we wrong?

Ok, so another rational person argument.

A rational person would assume an event coordinator would want their event to go as smoothly as possible. So they would expect that the rules would facilitate that.

If one dissalows helping others, then that raises a whole bunch of technicalities. Like, what if someone receives help on crew chat that they didnt ask for but someone else from their crew did? Is that cheating? What if I told everyone except one person where the people were hiding, would that disqualify everyone except that one person I told?

It makes it very complicated.

so a rational person could very easily assume that talking to others is allowed because there is no way to turn off chat and no way to regulate it. so it would be nearly impossible to fairly impliment a no helping or receiving help rule. And so it would be rational to assume there is no such rule if no such rule is posted.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Thews at Jul 14, 2006 11:53:13 PM]
[Jul 14, 2006 11:49:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Whitefire

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Re: Were we wrong?

Seriosuly though, never ask Parley if you're wrong.
[Jul 14, 2006 11:52:48 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Thews



Joined: Dec 8, 2005
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Re: Were we wrong?

And incase it wasnt apparent yet, I am that 4th place finisher, Gently

And to explain those quick finds, one of your hiders TOLD ME where someone was who I was having a lot of difficulty finding. There were two right next to each other, i forgot their names. But I found the first and she said the 2nd was close by. so I spent a long itme looking, untill she finaly said right next to me. I had assumed it was one person hiding there. But it was really two. You can ask her if you want, i have it in me chat log that this is what happened.

And the last person I found TOLD ME that they glitched out of their hiding spot. I too have that on chat log. Its not hard to find someone who is not hiding.
[Jul 14, 2006 11:57:04 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shorty_Jack

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Re: Were we wrong?

 
Seriosuly though, never ask Parley if you're wrong.

I'm learning that.

However, if I want to give advice on this in the future I need to know all viewpoints.

/me smacks head for even starting this thread.
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Shortyjack of the Midnight Ocean
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[Jul 14, 2006 11:57:20 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    silversleak [Link]  Go to top 
BenjeminR

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Re: Were we wrong?

Thews, if you are going to argue in that fashion you need to make sure your conclusions are supported by your premises. You should also be able to support your premises as true. You seem to just be making up "facts" and trying to make them fit to your, in my opinion, very biased view.


Hats off to Shorty and those who helped her with the events, and also to those who participated. Sorry it went poorly.
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Legacee
[Jul 15, 2006 12:06:14 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Thews



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Re: Were we wrong?

I was hoping if i laied it out like that, people would find the parts that I needed to fix to make it work in their head. That obviously isnt wat happened.

I mean, I could do the whole thing in first order logic with an essay to explain my premecies... but I feel that would get too long and be ignored. :)
[Jul 15, 2006 12:07:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shorty_Jack

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Re: Were we wrong?

 
Thews, if you are going to argue in that fashion you need to make sure your conclusions are supported by your premises. You should also be able to support your premises as true. You seem to just be making up "facts" and trying to make them fit to your, in my opinion, very biased view.


Hats off to Shorty and those who helped her with the events, and also to those who participated. Sorry it went poorly.

Thank you that means a lot to me.

Thews - I kind of thought you were a friend of Bridalgirl's for never posting on the forums and then suddenly having a viewpoint on this topic? Really I know you are standing up for your friend. And yes I know 2 were hiding next to eachother. Did I plan that no. Who told you where they were? All of the hiders were flagmates and trusted hearties of mine, I doubt anyone would do that unless you were standing next to them for 5 minutes even then I'm still not sure.
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Shortyjack of the Midnight Ocean
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[Jul 15, 2006 12:14:04 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    silversleak [Link]  Go to top 
Thews



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Re: Were we wrong?

Went back to me quartermaster:

Annaleese tells you, "look near me for bombasa"
Annaleese tells you, "RIGHT beside me"

Those were the tells. They were like 3 or 4 min apart. The first one is why i stopped finding people for so long. Because I kept looking but didnt bother to check RIGHT next to anna

And aye, it was a good event. Dispite my issue with the posting of rules, I still think the idea is a good one and I had a good time.
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tarajayne

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Joined: Sep 8, 2005
Posts: 1311
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Re: Were we wrong?

 
And incase it wasnt apparent yet, I am that 4th place finisher, Gently

And to explain those quick finds, one of your hiders TOLD ME where someone was who I was having a lot of difficulty finding. There were two right next to each other, i forgot their names. But I found the first and she said the 2nd was close by. so I spent a long itme looking, untill she finaly said right next to me. I had assumed it was one person hiding there. But it was really two. You can ask her if you want, i have it in me chat log that this is what happened.

And the last person I found TOLD ME that they glitched out of their hiding spot. I too have that on chat log. Its not hard to find someone who is not hiding.


Ok so 2 of the hiders helped a contestant. But having people who had no idea where they were or how they were constantly changing location help, that's considered wrong.

I don't get it.

Oh, and FYI I did not know this was Gently until now. Anyway he's not the only one on my side in this thread.
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Bridalgirl

I get around.
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