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muffy



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short pillaging runs? Reply to this Post
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Actually, pillaging up to Turtle tends to be shorter than pillaging to WS, since there's so much traffic down to WS that ye can pretty much pillage it all night without putting in to port.
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[May 6, 2003 2:24:41 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nemo
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Jack Cleaves the Gordian Knot Reply to this Post
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Yesterday Cleaver and I brought your pleas to the attention of our crew's Officer of Code, and an elegant answer to a large part of the issues was proposed:

Each ship would have a simple toggle between "hiring" and "not hiring" that reports to the Notice Board. Setting off on a journey, the captain merely goes to her desk and flips the switch. She now has her standard hiring message posted to the Notice Board. She can throw the switch back and forth whenever she wants while at sea, but it will be automatically shut off when the vessel is fully populated. (It will also revert to "off" when the ship is put into port.)

This doesn't address the reliability of potential hirees, but certainly allows for easier and faster replacements with minimal crew distraction.

Jack also seemed keen to the "check your chat history" notifier appearing in puzzle screens (and the accompanying necessity of a Command text).

So, devoted pirates of the seas, much of the content of this thread is now, officially, On The List (some of it not very far down).

-Nemo
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[May 7, 2003 2:23:40 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tw11st38r



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Re: Jobbing For A Crew Reply to this Post
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A concern about the switch being automatically turned off when the ship is full. Say my crew is comprised of PPs and a few NPPs... My ship if full, so it's set to not hiring.

What happens if a jobber comes along that I want to replace one of the NPPs I have on my ship. If my ship is full, they won't be able to apply, nor will I know they are looking for work.

Know what I mean?

Blackdeath
[May 7, 2003 2:27:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nemo
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Welcome aboard! [boots NPP off the plank] Reply to this Post
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Good point, I actually meant fully-populated by PPs. Although, I imagine in the magical land of Post-Release when we can get to a lot of the other fine-detailed customization issues, you could set it to whatever you like.

-Nemo
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[May 7, 2003 2:33:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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hiring and commands Reply to this Post
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Thank ye, thank ye, thank ye! It will take much of the stress off us poor captains to have these two features!
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[May 7, 2003 5:09:52 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
stevoid



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Re: jobbing to Papaya Reply to this Post
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muffy wrote: 
Ye can job to Turtle and from there to Papaya.


Sorry, I didn't explain properly...that's what we were trying to do; but the patience was going after we stood looking at a blank notice board for 5 minutes or so at a time! All we could do was use /tell to keep chatting to each other, as you can't fight or stand in a chat circle while you've got the noticeboard open. And there weren't any jobs for AGES!
[May 7, 2003 11:00:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cleaver
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Noticeboard Reply to this Post
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I actually just got Peghead to slip the following into the next release: you won't leave a chat group (bigger than you by yourself) to go look at the noticeboard. It was starting to get on my nerves, too. Arrr!
[May 7, 2003 2:08:51 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.puzzlepirates.com/ [Link]  Go to top 
Rattsey



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Re: Jobbing For A Crew Reply to this Post
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stevoid wrote: 
Thanks for the quick reply Nemo!

Some kind of notice board change would certainly be useful; Tarrna was trying to retrieve her ship from Papaya but we couldn't get there for ages as no traders & no-one that we asked was pillaging in that direction....don't know if new pirates taking jobs so not as many around, or that we were *just* missing them each time we looked, but a visual change, or "job applications" would mean that you could keep a lookout while in a chat circle or puzzling, rather than standing on your own.


Yar, thirded. I'd love to be able to track the notice board while I be chatting or fighting.
[May 8, 2003 8:09:14 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Penndalla

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Re: Jobbing For A Crew Reply to this Post
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I, Pennsuedo, and me officers Pratzstrike and Tarrna will gladly take new players out. I routinely ask later in the voyage if any one be interested in joinin' the crew. This be how I've built one of the most active crews in less than a week of startin' play. And everyone that keeps playin' fer more than a few days developes some skill at some puzzle or another. Few who be puzzle impaired be sailin' these waters fer long. It would suit me fine if all the other crews would turn newbies away. Then the 20 Rudder Lubber ships full of crew could own the hundred sees.

I donno' want to see any ratin' system that give me a black eye fer jumpin' off me own ship. In fact, I would hate to see a system that pegs any crewmate fer jumpin' a crew ship. Let it only apply to jobbers, please. A captain has other options fer dealin' with his own crew.

Actually, I donno' think a jump-ship ratin' should be put in 'til issues with freezes and boots be taken care of.

Worries o'er bad jobbers should be less when the game has more players. Then the crews will be larger with more online at a time, and ye will find crews takin' jobbers mainly as a chance to recruit. Then it be an issue of evaluation while they be onboard.

It would be helpful fer officers to be able to tag a notice to a player that other officers in the crew could see. Then I could be taggin' Disaster with a note sayin' "skewer this jerk, cause he intentionally booched jobs on me ship the other night." Yeah, I meant to use his name. Har, har.

It would be helpful if there be a few check-box options to apply the divy this way or that. Such as one to check to divy booty based upon % time onboard since last divy.

I routinely go ashore to recruit durin' mid journey while leavin' me ship to me officer. I log off and go to Alpha and round up pps and npps to take back to the ship. I've noticed that me posts tend to go away once I set sail with me lone ship, so I also routinely leave an officer around to repost once we set sail. This may change now that we be addin' more ships to the crew.

As far as folks jumpin' ship and leavin' ye stranded, I surely think it would be a fine thing to be able to just squander the ship fer the night and have everyone jump off. It should be an officer option that kicks everyone off the ship except officers. The ship would just cease to exist fer a period of time (maybe 2 hours? or a day?) then show up back at Alpha. This be a game after all. And when it be in the wee hours, and I get stuck with a water-logged ship and no crew, it tend to make me curse and wonder what other alpha tests be goin' on out thar.
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Pennsuedo

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[May 19, 2003 5:59:16 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all [Link]  Go to top 
stevoid



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Re: Jobbing For A Crew Reply to this Post
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Penndalla wrote: 
I donno' want to see any ratin' system that give me a black eye fer jumpin' off me own ship. In fact, I would hate to see a system that pegs any crewmate fer jumpin' a crew ship. Let it only apply to jobbers, please. A captain has other options fer dealin' with his own crew.


I think that the option to rate a jobber should be given to the captain of the crew, not done automatically. I am quite happy to let someone leave in the middle of a journey when their crew come online or if they are feeling tired or whatever; I just think it's only polite to at least ask & offer to stay until the next island if possible, and the many captains I've jobbed for are very understanding too. I just don't like someone who's come along and participated in a pillage to jump off whenever they feel like it & then complain that I didn't give them a share of the booty when we divided - and I'm not going to pay anyone who does that without asking, jobbers be warned! However, people can't help disconnects or crashes, and I re-job them when that happens.

Perhaps as I suggested earlier, an option to "black spot" jobbers when dividing booty if they were not still on the ship when it reached the island -
if a captain did that to you for unwarranted reasons you would know not to work for them again. It could apply to just the captain's crew so that your other officers would know not to hire them. And an undo option would be essential for disconnects etc in the case of major problems.

Penndalla wrote: 
It would be helpful if there be a few check-box options to apply the divy this way or that. Such as one to check to divy booty based upon % time onboard since last divy.

That would be handy! No more trying to scroll up when we're in port to see when people joined, with it bouncing back to the bottom of the chat because everyone on board is talking.
[May 19, 2003 8:55:49 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Re: Jobbing For A Crew Reply to this Post
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I disagree 103% about needing a rating system. Any captain reserves the right to ignore any information the game gives him or her, so I don't see how having such a mechanism would affect Penndalla's ideas about what a crew should be like. I think if a pirate is prone to jump ship before reaching an island FOR ANY REASON -- connection, kids, cockatoos, cocoa puffs, carelessness -- other players can use this information to their advantage -- especially with a large crew. Knowing that a pirate -- part of yer crew or no -- VERY FREQUENTLY bails between islands means you'll need to grab some extra pirates (PP or NPP) as insurance. Ye olde ounce of prevention . . .


Ye can hire anyone ye want, from the most reliable to the blackest of the black-spotted, but knowing which is which would help a ton.

Incidentally, I consider this kind of background-checking "reasonable" preparation for going out to sea.
[May 19, 2003 10:58:23 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
Einstein9073



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Reputations Reply to this Post
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I think some mechanism for reliability is truly needed. A true mate would ask around the docks before they took a new hand upon the voyage, and the word would get around about a truly unreliable "scurvy dog". (Arr.)

One possibility you may consider is a rating system like Ebay uses. Positive feedback, negative feedback... BlackSpots instead of the colorful stars. *grin*
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Einstein, Fellucia
Yarr, matey.

[May 20, 2003 6:31:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.scn.org/~einstein [Link]  Go to top 
Nemo
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I got yer black spot right 'ere. Reply to this Post
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Whatever feedback we end up using (if any) it will not be accompanied by an E-Bay-style comment line. If this is going to be used, it has to be as unobtrusive as possible, and so should basically be a meter or rank and that's all (besides, Cleaver's piratey noggin would explode if people started writing "Would hire again! AAAAA+++++" and the like after every response).
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[May 20, 2003 6:41:32 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Meghaford



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Re: Jobbing For A Crew Reply to this Post
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ooh... that sounds interesting... Cleaver's head exploding... lets do it :o)
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--Ursela, Captain of the Dastards
... and a few others ...
[May 20, 2003 12:45:12 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.rjmlb.com [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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I think a rank, akin to the ones for the puzzles, would be fine. Just as a captain can ignore somebody's swordfighting ranking when hiring them for pillaging (due to friendship, crewmanship, sportsmanship, whatever), the captain can also ignore the Loyalty or Gumption or Salt or whatever the rating ends up being called.

Just to be clear, I don't have a problem with people needing to leave, letting me know they need to leave, and getting off at the nearest island. I think it's in the captain's best interest to head for an island when somebody needs to go . . . after all, ye can get an NPP replacement more easily that way.

I DO have a problem with people pestering and whining for a pillaging trip, only to have them leave -- often saying nothing whatsoever -- a few minutes after setting sail. People who do that FOR WHATEVER REASON are not good mates, because they're unreliable, and knowing that outside the confines of the crew would be useful indeed. Otherwise, they will go from crew to crew to crew, bringing people down again and again, and each crew would have to learn their lesson. In the "real" world, people's reputation precedes them; most in Y!PP aren't on continuously to transmit that kind of info, so a reliability ranking takes its place.

And I think ye SHOULD get a black eye for jumping yer own ship, if it leaves people stranded with no way of guiding the ship in. Yes, they can log back to Alpha, but the abandoned ship is then subject to penalties and whatnot, cutting into their share of the booty, if any.
[May 20, 2003 10:47:13 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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One possible solution might be to make it voluntary whether ye show yer reliability rank. Remember, not everyone is going to be a pirate, so the "no honor among thieves" thing doesn't really work.
[May 20, 2003 10:48:30 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
stevoid



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The reason that I thought maybe applying a "manual" black spot is that if I am out pillaging with a crew and one of my crew logs on & goes out, it may not suit the jobbing captain to put into an island when I mention that I need to leave, and they have enough players/npp's on board that they are happy for me to go in mid-voyage rather than go to an island just for me to leave. Or they have a member of their crew log-in and the ship is full...so I can jump ship and their crew member can join whereas otherwise a crew member may not be able to join their own crew because of jobbers taking up spaces (a situation that could easily occur as crews get larger if people take jobbers over npp's). As it's beneficial to everyone to do that, it would be a shame to black spot anyone.

If the captain only had an option to black spot you if you had left before the booty was divided, if you hadn't left or been /planked before booty division, the option would not appear so you could protect your reputation by just not leaving.

The undo option would be necessary so that if your ISP went down (as happened to me the other day - service out for 10 hours, grrr) and you got black spotted, you could speak to the officer who had done it and see if they would reverse it. The jobber would know not to sail with them again if they were unreasonable and wouldn't undo even though there was a good reason.

Any automatic black spotting would be unfair to people with certain ISP's - one popular UK one for example kicks you out after 2 hours so you have to reconnect. This could mean unfair ratings solely due to your ISP, and to avoid them you'd have to not sail for a time before this happened; in case the crew you were jobbing for had a really good run & didn't make it to the next island in time. I appreciate Homullus's point that you're still left a pirate short, but most pirates will warn that they will disappear before sailing with you. If they don't - they deserve a black spot anyway!

I don't think it should happen if you're out with your own crew; if they don't like you, they can kick you out or demote you if you're not the captain, or leave your crew if you are.

If there were positive & negatives, it could be a good thing, but possibly less unbiased - as in the eBay system, you could get false positive votes simply by getting someone to job you & give you good feedback plenty of times to balance out a justifiably earned negative. All you'd need would be a friendly officer from a different crew.
[May 21, 2003 1:16:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Penndalla

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At best, I think the ratings should be internal to a crew. These guys (the designers) have to make money at some point. How many newbies are gonna get shunned out of the game before they catch on? While we are at it, can I pin tags on smart mouths at the dock? How about know it alls? And we need tags for old-timers... Ok, I am overboard here, but everyone is griping about this be not fun and that be not fun. People putting little tags all over me, or havin' an "automatic and ubiquitous" black dot on my forehead is not fun. Just the ability for crew officers to post notes about players, or for internal use on players, should be enough to make sure you don't hire the same loafer twice. And if that other captain yer about to try to pillage hired a load of them that you already passed up... Har, har. Count yer poe and be glad the game doesn't have concentration camps.

Does it even make sense to enforce some kind of morality measure on pirates? I mean, come on...

It seems like it might be a piratey thing for my crew to secretly slip sabotage jobbers onto the mightiest captain's ship for the sole objective of throwing the fight when we attack him or her (the dual gender reference is for Ursula's benefit). Then you would need some kind of crew black dot to show up on my crew profile. T'would be a shame for a pirate to be so underhanded, no?
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Pennsuedo

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[May 21, 2003 2:12:37 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all [Link]  Go to top 
Cleaver
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Feedrack Systems Reply to this Post
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As Stevoid rightly points out, Feedback systems are extremeley vulnerable to Gaming, particularly when there's no actual cost to posting feedback (unlike eBay, where you do actually have to pay eBay, essentially, to post feedback).

I'm keen on feedback systems, and will continue to consider it, but I'm hard-pressed to come up with a reasonable system that's not vulnerable to gaming or making my head explode with 'AAAA+++++'. One thing that I will say is that from a customer support point of view we are going to keep close tracks on things like how often a player is /planked, or muted, and use this information to curtail the activities of actual griefers.

I don't think a black or gold spot could be automatic, and yet, it's tricky to make manual. Maybe if you can only give a gold spot every so often. Oh, I'm going round in circles already (this is what happens with feedback systems).
[May 21, 2003 2:16:18 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.puzzlepirates.com/ [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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I used to have one of those connections, where it timed out automatically after some few hours, and I played a lot of AC at the time. The solution? Watch the clock! When you're close to your two hours, log out and in again!

Now, to be fair, sometimes you lose track of time. I would want there to be some sort of grace period for an automatic black spot, more than enough time to re-connect. It would NOT be fair to black spot those who log right back on again (and if necessary, gets re-jobbed). However, somebody who regularly times out or loses their connection and DOESN'T come back SHOULD be black spotted. I don't care if it isn't their fault, they still won't be a reliable mate. Ten or fifteen minutes is probably more than fair. If yer ISP goes down, or there's a massive power outage, these things happen. I think you should get the black spot regardless, but if there be rankings, you don't go down 10 ranks for one accident. The goal here is to have repeat offenders labelled as such, not punish people for dealing with real life. If real life interferes that often (ISP down twice a week, for instance), then your co-workers need to know about it.

It might not be convenient to put in at an island, and it might not suit the purposes of the captain. But jumping ship when the captain is willing and able to make that trip is bad. Anyone who leaves with the captain's permission can be /planked (or something nicer-sounding), kept in the booty division, and not black-spotted. Leave without permission, and get the black spot.

The "undo" is a good idea, but should only be possible by an officer of that ship (or the de facto captain, if we end up doing that thing on the other thread), so I don't know how well it would work.

I think it SHOULD happen with your own crew. Yes, it's up to them whether to demote or boot you (or not, if there are other factors in the formation of yer crew, like friendship), but wouldn't you like to know whether a pirate looking to join your crew was let go for unreliability?

"Positives" would be earned by completing trips, very simply. This would be the way you go up in rank . . . I think I threw out some numbers like going up one rank for every 10 trips completed, and down one rank for every time you jump ship without permission. Given how easy it would be for a captain to give permission, I don't think MOST people would have problems keeping a decent rank. Again, this is really meant to tag those who are VERY CONSISTENTLY unreliable.
[May 21, 2003 2:22:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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invisible black spots? Reply to this Post
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How about if the "black spot" status of a person is not visible until it passes a certain threshhold, after which it is reviewed and then made visible? You might allow a few reasons, with different severites ("jumped ship without notice" might hit the threshhold after 10 occurrences, while "sabotaged (now former) crew's ship" or "intentionally left battle" might hit the threshhold after one or two) record the pirate who black spotted them, and perhaps allow for comments.
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[May 21, 2003 2:28:11 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
akebia



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Cleaver wrote: 
As Stevoid rightly points out, Feedback systems are extremeley vulnerable to Gaming, particularly when there's no actual cost to posting feedback (unlike eBay, where you do actually have to pay eBay, essentially, to post feedback).


Have you seen the system that advogato uses? It's intended to be robust against this sort of thing. Other than having heard of it, I can't really vouch for it.

http://www.advogato.org/trust-metric.html

I don't think I want a rating system, but in case I'm in the minority here, there may be a sane way to set up a rating scheme.

Of course, if we have such a system, I want to hear all the parrots badmouthing everyone.
[May 23, 2003 11:37:04 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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