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Flak_88

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Bannination for being a barrelstopper Reply to this Post
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Re: bannination #43215 permanent exile of Johndigger(not a solicitation to discuss this case, just generalities)

Ok this isn't really about him, but he's not the last in a string of folks being banned because they cannot keep their mouth shut. To me there are only a few things that I can see a permanent ban for running your mouth right off the bat. Usually they are because of spamming of extremely perverse comments. Thing is, some of those I know who are permanently banned because of their mouth, are not as bad as very many players still playing, some over 2 years.

So this whine is about the fact that this is a policy that completely relies on not being around people who will complain you. Is there actually a guideline to what is acceptable, or can you never say what you think freely unless you only talk with invited buddies into your house?

In my ideal situation only unsolicited perverted, repeated filter bypass swearing, or cruel attacks on greenie could be permabanned instantly, with other ones giving a temp ban, possibly permabanned on the 2nd offense.

Currently it seems to be saying the wrong thing, in front of the wrong people, during the time with the wrong OM on duty. I wonder I could get some of my enemies banned by complaining them?
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Flakcannon, on all English Oceans, except that imposter on Malachite.
Farming, cleaning up your poo, and making you drink it.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Flak_88 at Jun 12, 2006 10:26:26 AM]
[Jun 12, 2006 10:25:56 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    habhabhabhab [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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Re: Bannination for being a barrelstopper Reply to this Post
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Flak wrote: 
I wonder I could get some of my enemies banned by complaining them?
You can get anyone banned... if they did something wrong first.

It's like that old saying goes. If you burn down a forest and an environmentalist isn't there to whine about it...
[Jun 12, 2006 10:34:11 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dorel

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Re: Bannination for being a barrelstopper Reply to this Post
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It's all about context really, I would think.

If somebody pops into a chat circle where he's completely unknown and starts randomly asking people if they wanna scupper, then yeah, that person would be asking for a ban (although I'd probably just mute the idiot). If he goes into a circle of friends, with one or two strangers in there, and does the same thing, causing raucous laughter or extra flirtations amidst the friends, then a ban isn't necessary (although, if the strangers weren't comfortable with that kind of thing, I wouldn't blame them for muting the heavily flirtatious people or just leaving the circle).

That being said though, some people are WAY too quick to use the /complain function, trying to get people banned for behavior that they simply don't agree with. And, in cases such as that, OMs might not have the time to investigate every action individually. And when any kind of sexual harassement is involved, they probably don't want to let things linger for too long.

So, in essence, I agree with this :

 
In my ideal situation only unsolicited perverted, repeated filter bypass swearing, or cruel attacks on greenie could be permabanned instantly, with other ones giving a temp ban, possibly permabanned on the 2nd offense.

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Gather round, folks, for the Ballad of Dorel the Invulnerable!
silverkitty wrote: 
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juventus1

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Re: Bannination for being a barrelstopper Reply to this Post
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If you burn down a forest and an environmentalist isn't there to whine about it...


Why do I get the feeling you've burnt down a forest before? In a manner of speaking, of course.
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[Jun 12, 2006 10:38:49 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
yohohobob

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Re: Bannination for being a barrelstopper Reply to this Post
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This is all because of the game trying to be more kid friendly I think and maybe people are complaining more then they used to, I personally only complain extreme rudeness, scamming, stealing and other such things not just light hearted tarting.

Madyohoho,
Blaming the whining kids of today.
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Madyohoho SO of Di Cerberus-Retired
Lord of Arcana Imperii(Viridian)[quote]Remember, I'm the one that sits back and giggles at you mates while sipping masttails in my pajamas. Besides, Y!PP isn't a game; it's a way of life
[Jun 12, 2006 10:53:11 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Flak_88

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Re: Bannination for being a barrelstopper Reply to this Post
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Shurby wrote: 
Flak wrote: 
I wonder I could get some of my enemies banned by complaining them?
You can get anyone banned... if they did something wrong first.


But what is considered wrong? I have some very offensive enemies and friends, I just don't think it fair to complain someone that's a complete jerk unless they are basically ruining the game for me and others. I have a /mute function that works wonderfully. How are we to know what is over the line and not, if say you just get banned at the first bad timing after getting away with such behavior for months and years?
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Flakcannon, on all English Oceans, except that imposter on Malachite.
Farming, cleaning up your poo, and making you drink it.
[Jun 12, 2006 11:01:25 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    habhabhabhab [Link]  Go to top 
sweetnessc

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Re: Bannination for being a barrelstopper Reply to this Post
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Of course it depends on who is around, I speed almost every time I drive but I only get fined for it that one time a year I pass a cop. That's life. If you take the risk of such behaviour around people you aren't sure of and have the bad luck to use such language around an audience that cares, then your bad luck, take the consequences. Use your head and save it for times and places where you know your audience, and you won't have a problem. As between inconsistent banning for poor behaviour and a carte blanche for it, I choose inconsistent banning.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
[Jun 12, 2006 11:10:49 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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Re: Bannination for being a barrelstopper Reply to this Post
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But it's possible to ruin the game for someone and still be within your rights. Not that I know, because I've never done something like that... or anything. Stop looking at me like that! /complain you

Wasn't there something in the ToS about saying certain kinds of things in a public channel?
[Jun 12, 2006 11:11:27 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Flak_88

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Re: Bannination for being a barrelstopper Reply to this Post
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Sweetie wrote: 
Of course it depends on who is around, I speed almost every time I drive but I only get fined for it that one time a year I pass a cop. That's life. If you take the risk of such behaviour around people you aren't sure of and have the bad luck to use such language around an audience that cares, then your bad luck, take the consequences. Use your head and save it for times and places where you know your audience, and you won't have a problem. As between inconsistent banning for poor behaviour and a carte blanche for it, I choose inconsistent banning.


Which is why I attempt to always behave, but I accept a wide variety of game behaviors I find utterly replusive in RL without complaint.


Shurby wrote: 
But it's possible to ruin the game for someone and still be within your rights. Not that I know, because I've never done something like that... or anything. Stop looking at me like that! /complain you

Wasn't there something in the ToS about saying certain kinds of things in a public channel?


I don't mind complaints about ruining the game, if within their rights then no discipline should happen. I once complained someone with a swear word as part of their name, 1 year later they still existed and were playing, after that I pretty much toned it down. But it seems the stick is coming down harder recently, but nobody knows where that line is. Is this a 13 year old game, 20 year old, 40 year old?
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Flakcannon, on all English Oceans, except that imposter on Malachite.
Farming, cleaning up your poo, and making you drink it.
[Jun 12, 2006 11:21:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    habhabhabhab [Link]  Go to top 
rixation

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Re: Bannination for being a barrelstopper Reply to this Post
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Shur wrote: 
Wasn't there something in the ToS about saying certain kinds of things in a public channel?


Yup...
 
There is an exception to the swearing rule: exclamations and other non-directed instances of foul language are not considered offensive if they are not excessive. It is for this reason that the filter exists. If you let out one curse word, that is fine, but many may be a problem.

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Epimetheus
Retired

[Jun 12, 2006 11:26:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Chavez67

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Re: Bannination for being a barrelstopper Reply to this Post
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What did johndigger do exactly?


/curious
----------------------------------------
 
 
 
I did it.
clarify
It was me.

[Jun 12, 2006 11:28:33 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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Re: Bannination for being a barrelstopper Reply to this Post
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I think it's less an age thing and more a... um, environmental thing. Friendly atmosphere? Yeah, I guess a lot of people associate that with age but a Rated G movie doesn't actually mean it's a kid's movie.
[Jun 12, 2006 11:40:05 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ponytailguy

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Re: Bannination for being a barrelstopper Reply to this Post
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The way I see it, /blackspot was meant to be used for those people who are being general social nuisances, not /mute and not /complain.

/mute doesn't fix the problem, it just means you (you... unique, singular, nobody-else-but-you) can no longer hear the problem. /complain is often too severe and if you abuse /complain, I think you'd get a similar punishment to that which you'd get for abusing petitions. If you just want to send them a strong message, you've politely asked them to stop or move on, and they're being a general nuisance (annoying other people as well as yourself), then /blackspots for barrelstoppers are, IMO, more than acceptable.

So, yeah. People shouldn't be so quick to /complain.
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The Ghost of Oceans Past
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by ponytailguy at Jun 12, 2006 12:11:24 PM]
[Jun 12, 2006 11:58:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Drusilla

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Re: Bannination for being a barrelstopper Reply to this Post
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Am I reading this situation correctly? What I understand is a group of people rallying around someone who was banned for being imprudent around whom he was acting like a barelstopper. Really? I mean, I'll be the first to admit that I've abused friend's ears when I was in a foul mood, but prudence and knowing your audience is the key, isn't it? Why do we want to keep people around who don't know when it is appropriate to act immaturely?

I don't know the person in question, but if you all admit he was a barrelstopper and didn't know when to tone it down this whole quest seems silly.
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Avast! Jesus were a leopard.
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Flak_88

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Re: Bannination for being a barrelstopper Reply to this Post
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The person in question I have rarely observed being a barrelstopper, I just know he had the attitude to be one. Others apparently have. So it rather took me by surpise. Past mates I know who got banned I readily acknowledged and seen their bad side, but still didn't think they deserved bans.
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Flakcannon, on all English Oceans, except that imposter on Malachite.
Farming, cleaning up your poo, and making you drink it.
[Jun 12, 2006 1:22:38 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    habhabhabhab [Link]  Go to top 
Dylan

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Re: Bannination for being a barrelstopper Reply to this Post
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Am I reading this situation correctly?


No you aren't.

They aren't rallying around the barrelstopper. Simply querying where the line in the sand should be drawn.

The analogy of speeding is a good one: if someone exceeds the speed limit once, and is caught on camera, should they be banned from driving for the rest of their lives? Is it OK to speed as long as you don't get caught? After all, if the camera isn't there, you are using your discretion and just speeding amongst friends, eh?

Dylan
[Jun 12, 2006 1:24:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
sweetnessc

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Re: Bannination for being a barrelstopper Reply to this Post
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I once had an argument with a friend for several hours at a wedding. He was upset that he had been stopped for speeding and given a ticket when going 16 ks over the limit. He was adamant that the police should establish a bright line so that you would know exactly what speed you could go without getting ticketed, that it was wrong that sometimes they gave you a ticket for going 10 km/h over, and other times let you get away with 20 km/h.

I said there is such a bright line. It's called the speed limit.

Same applies here.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
[Jun 12, 2006 1:33:50 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Drusilla

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Re: Bannination for being a barrelstopper Reply to this Post
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I say that this isn't a case where it's possible to say that only such-and-such things are quite offensive enough to be ban-worthy. That simply limits the authority of the OMs to enforce bans in places where the line isn't so clear-cut. So the rules that we have say that you may be a jerk in private, amongst people who accept such behavior. If you can't learn prudent judgement and are unable to limit your ban-worthy activities to situations in which they are acceptable then you do deserve to be banned. If you must extract a lesson from it, it serves as a good introduction to the fact that the foundation of respectability is the ability to exercise good character judgement.

So to continue in the vein of the speeding analogy, you're welcome to speed on a private road if you own and maintain it; you deserve your punishment if you violate the well-defined rules of driving on public roads.
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Avast! Jesus were a leopard.
[Jun 12, 2006 1:48:33 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    drusilla_ypp    raspberryjamdeg [Link]  Go to top 
Flak_88

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Re: Bannination for being a barrelstopper Reply to this Post
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There's no bright line or defined limit in being a barrelstopper. Is it 3 curse words. Is it 2 curse words and used in a mean comment towards someone that could be taken as a joke if they know you well enough but not by others? Is it using /shout when saying something mean? 2 blackpots and a complain, 1 blackpot, 10? Actually I don't really care if people get banned temporarily for any such nebulous type situation, just give them a chance. If they screw that up well be off with them.
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Flakcannon, on all English Oceans, except that imposter on Malachite.
Farming, cleaning up your poo, and making you drink it.
[Jun 12, 2006 1:56:11 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    habhabhabhab [Link]  Go to top 
sweetnessc

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Re: Bannination for being a barrelstopper Reply to this Post
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The bright line is zero. Do not swear, and you will not be banned for swearing. Don't be an arsehole ever, and you won't be banned for being a booty. Anything more than that and be damn sure your judgement is sound and your audience is selected.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
[Jun 12, 2006 2:02:55 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Talisker

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Re: Bannination for being a barrelstopper Reply to this Post
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Yeah, I gotta go with Sweetie and Dru on this one. This is one of those cases where some "bright line," if set to more than zero, just causes problems. I can be offensive in less than three words. Given the proper audience, it can easily be done in one word. Or you can manage highly offensive in a several minute long speech never using anything that couldn't be said on prime time TV. As soon as you start putting a line in the sand like '2 words, not accepted in polite company, said with offensive intent' you get people arguing. 'Well, it was 1 word.' 'Yes, but it was highly offensive.' 'But the limit is 2 words! You can't ban me!' and so on.


(And I appreciate the desire to present an unedited post, but deleting it while I'm replying is always frustrating :P )
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BehindCurtai

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Re: Bannination for being a barrelstopper Reply to this Post
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But are you really saying that someone who is normally a perfect person, who gets upset once and lets out something bad, just once in their entire life, should be punished?

Wake up folks: Moses himself could not live up to that standard, not after "40 years" in the dessert with complaining israelies.

 
Why do I get the feeling you've burnt down a forest before? In a manner of speaking, of course.

And no one paid attention to him. Remember "Ransom"? No one gave him any rum for that poor, unwanted bird.

Yes, you too could have had a familiar for the cost of one sloop and one unit of rum. That is, if you wanted one on <shudder> cobalt </shudder>
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"We're trying to find the error bars on that number"

Dylan wrote: 
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by BehindCurtai at Jun 12, 2006 2:14:47 PM]
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Talisker

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Re: Bannination for being a barrelstopper Reply to this Post
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But are you really saying that someone who is normally a perfect person,


I'm pretty sure we shouldn't be considering imaginary people.
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Leif
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I can't respond because I do not understand what the hell you are talking about. Sorry.

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sweetnessc

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Re: Bannination for being a barrelstopper Reply to this Post
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That's not what I said at all. Please reread.
----------------------------------------
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
[Jun 12, 2006 2:15:43 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
quiglin

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Re: Bannination for being a barrelstopper Reply to this Post
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Leif wrote: 
 
But are you really saying that someone who is normally a perfect person,


I'm pretty sure we shouldn't be considering imaginary people.


Darnit, Leif, will you stop sniping me like this! Thanfully, I hit Preview before I post.
[Jun 12, 2006 2:19:22 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.quiglin.com    bquiglin    bquiglin [Link]  Go to top 
taelac

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Re: Bannination for being a barrelstopper Reply to this Post
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BC wrote: 
Wake up folks: Moses himself could not live up to that standard, not after "40 years" in the dessert with complaining israelies.


Lovely - now do I not only have to vacuum Dorito crumbs out of my keyboard, but I also have to purge my brain of the image of Moses parting the tiramisu while a modern day army criticizes his technique in the background...

Back to topic: Play nice. That really is all there is to it.
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~Taelac
ROMS XVII:Vanilla Filler
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Dylan

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The bottom line is that if every ToS infringement were punished with bannination, then the oceans would be a very quiet place.

If every law infringement bore the death penalty, and this were enforced, the human race would be extinct.

Fortunately law enforcement isn't that extreme. Unfortunately, the blind letter of the ToS is not.

Once again, I must reiterate that I believe that the OMs do the best they can under the current policy. But considering that they probably have to take less than a minute to make a ban/no ban decision in the majority of cases, you can see where problems might arise.

Dylan
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Grayside

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Hence the appeals process, which if followed correctly probably gets at least twice as much attention.
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Firestone, Captain, Mad Tea Party, Cobalt
Gallant, PotD, Midnight

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Rick9109

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I've had fellow captains tell me that they were complained by jobbers for things they said in crew chat. To that my response was "what in the seven seas."

I thought that was rather silly. Docks are public places and anyone can misclick into a chatcircle and hear something rather inapproprirate. But you have to accept a job into the crew and you can leave at any time and even go about pillaging.

Anyway, specifically on the Johndigger thing, I don't like to make judgement calls on why the OMs decided to ban someone, because there is probably a whole other side that I don't have access to. I agree that from what I saw it seemed to be an overreaction, because holy hell I've been apart of 100x worse. I just have to hope there is another side we're all not seeing.
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Rome
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I don't care what it did to them, the game's been good to me.
[Jun 12, 2006 3:23:21 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    rick9109    cactusrome [Link]  Go to top 
talya_mamush

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Wake up folks: Moses himself could not live up to that standard, not after "40 years" in the dessert with complaining israelies.


They weren't Israelis. They were Jews. Israel didn't even exist yet, the land was called Knaan. :P

Yes I'm completely ignoring the point.
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Tuly
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