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Cedric

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Labor! Reply to this Post
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Flushing out the people who hadn't played in 10 days has really booched the shops ability to produce again. shopowners had to work a good while to get a good workforce created, hiring and firing only people who gave them enough hours because of the limited slots available.

Now their simply isn't enough workers to go around. Not onlt are all of the old shops now desperate to hire, theres a couple of dozen new shops on Spring and all of the new islands (and more ocming ths week!)

There's nothing to be done about the previous firing, its done, but can the cutoff be rolled back to 30 days? The turnover on the workforce is killer at 10 days. I want to be able to micromanage to make a shop run better, not to make it run at all.
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Captain of the Yellow Jackets (Midnight)
Not to be taken internally (or seriously)
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[Sep 29, 2003 1:44:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Maverick1701 [Link]  Go to top 
Kraken



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On the other side of the coin. Thank you!! Now maybe we'll see some prices start to climb. Shops are going to have to compete for worker's hours.

To all those who don't own shops but have jobs at them: Check your wages. If you are getting paid low, quit your jobs and seek better compensation. I'll be adjusting my paid wages at the Spring Blade iron monger on Spring when I log in next time (hopefully tonight).
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Gorth

Midnight:
-Senior Officer of Dastardly Deviant Devils.

Azure:
-Owner of Spring Blade Iron Monger on Spring Island.
-Senior Officer of Dastardly Deviant Devils.
[Sep 29, 2003 1:54:13 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
meiadm



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again flipsiding the coin - with rising prices on - in particular - wood - some shoppes has to start raising prices in general - so prices will start to soar on most products requiring wood. - ah... whatever will we do.
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Frizzan - Gone for good
[Sep 29, 2003 2:02:25 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kraken



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Ooh, another bonus. Now wood and many other comodities will be profitable to do trading with. Pillaging will now become much more profitable too.

To anyone doing trading/foraging: We at the Spring Blade Iron Monger on Spring try to pay good prices for traded goods. We need lots of Iron Monger related stuff. Stop by Spring and check out the prices. If you don't think they are fair enough, send myself (owner) or one of the managers a /tell when we are on and negotiate a better price. Remember, "Some people call it an Iron Monger... I call it a Spring Blade.. Mmm hmmm"
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Gorth

Midnight:
-Senior Officer of Dastardly Deviant Devils.

Azure:
-Owner of Spring Blade Iron Monger on Spring Island.
-Senior Officer of Dastardly Deviant Devils.
[Sep 29, 2003 2:10:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
atteSmythe

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Pillaging will now become much more profitable too.

Unless we can't afford rum again. Ah, but how bad can it get, right? ;)

atteSmythe,
who's grateful for the rum he already has on purchase, and the rum he regularly captures from unlucky brigands
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Attesmythe receives loot: [Gauntlets of Social Responsibility]
Attesmythe receives loot: [Ring of Mandatory Selflessness]

[Sep 29, 2003 2:12:11 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://attesmythe.com [Link]  Go to top 
Cedric

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Oh is that really where we want to go with labor? The only shops who can get labor are those who are willing to get into yet another price war, paying 50, 75, or 100 poe an hour for labor?

And these selfsame people who make the wages are /still/ going to turn around and shop at the cheapest places, even if the waittime is 5 days long.

Lets face it, except for rum and cannonball, most of the end user goods are directly aimed at newbies. Most of us who are into the game a couple of months buy very little stuff from shops, so we have a large number of people who are producers but not consumers.
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Captain of the Yellow Jackets (Midnight)
Not to be taken internally (or seriously)
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[Sep 29, 2003 2:13:41 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Maverick1701 [Link]  Go to top 
Kraken



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Well, that is yet to be seen. Really, going from one booched economy to another isn't any better or worse. The only difference right now is that before we all agreed the economy was booched, while now we can only speculate whether or not the economy will remain booched. Maybe this has something to do with Jack's "experiment" he was talking about in the post when he started selling the shops on Spring.

I for one do not shop at places that quote times in days. I did that one time. It took me two weeks to get one sword.
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Gorth

Midnight:
-Senior Officer of Dastardly Deviant Devils.

Azure:
-Owner of Spring Blade Iron Monger on Spring Island.
-Senior Officer of Dastardly Deviant Devils.
[Sep 29, 2003 2:23:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cedric

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Certainly the economy was somewhat booched, but I fail to see where eliminating our workforce will fix any of it. If it was, as stated, done to get new players jobs, it should have waited until /after/ Jack's experiment and the colonization push, to see if there would still be a shortage of jobs after that.

If it was done to artificially inflate labor prices, then, since this is beta, I hope its used as a guide of what not to do.

Because now, former shops who *could* produce something in an hour are taking 30 hours or more. And there's no solution but to beg people to take jobs or make yourself uncompetitive by jacking labor prices.
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Captain of the Yellow Jackets (Midnight)
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[Sep 29, 2003 2:33:34 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Maverick1701 [Link]  Go to top 
Amberyl

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I suspect the rationale was not entirely "get new players jobs"; the "fire inactive players after 10 days" seems to be a measure designed to ensure that jobs go to players who are actually active on the game, which is a much more realistic balance, economically. If all labor that is produced is produced by the idle, but goods are consumed by the active, there's an inherent imbalance in that.
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Amberyl, SO, Cult of the Red Mantis, Looterati
Reading the forums a lot is like camping clue. --homullus
[Sep 29, 2003 2:39:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.black-knight.org/pp/    CyberLWL [Link]  Go to top 
Kraken



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Explain how jacking up your labor prices, in effect drawing in more labor so that you can produce things more quickly than low-paying shops who take days to produce the same thing, is not competetive? I would think that would be the very nature of being competetive. Being competetive doesnt mean always having the lowest prices. My shop wont have the lowest prices, I can almost garuntee that. But we do pay well for comodities, and once the labor prices are adjusted, we will be paying well for labor also. In that I think we will be just as competetive as the "old system" shops.
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Gorth

Midnight:
-Senior Officer of Dastardly Deviant Devils.

Azure:
-Owner of Spring Blade Iron Monger on Spring Island.
-Senior Officer of Dastardly Deviant Devils.
[Sep 29, 2003 2:46:52 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cedric

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And once you do get running you'll find thats simply not the case Kraken. Because most of the purchasing is done by the newbies who shop at the cheapest place, no matter the wait time. Sure, they eventually learn that they can get tings faster by paying a bitmore, and some do, but by that time they already have their clothing and swords they wanted and the deed is done.

in any event, you can pay as much as you like for labor, someone will best that price, and the limited number of people who actually seek jobs will run away from you to the other place. so you'll be left to either jack up the prices again, or live with a low amount of laborers. Or you'll be left hiring again in 10 days, because those that did say are 'inactive'.

Thus the excessive turnover in your labor force. When real skills are implemented this won't be a problem, since an expert weaver won't be able to go be a shipwright with any effectiveness.

Another issue; increased prices won't be offset by incresed income. Most income is earned through pillaging and you can only earn so much money pillaging, there is no asking the boss for a raise. It just means they ave to wait longer to make that purchase, which means fewer orders per day for your shop. Fewerorders per day is usually offset by more money per order, but since the raise in price is directly cased by the raise in cost of labor, you won't make any more money.

Its a lose-lose situation.
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Captain of the Yellow Jackets (Midnight)
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[Sep 29, 2003 2:57:59 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Maverick1701 [Link]  Go to top 
Squidbeard

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I'd argue more, but you contradict yourself! Reply to this Post
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Cedric wrote: 
...Because most of the purchasing is done by the newbies who shop at the cheapest place, no matter the wait time. Sure, they eventually learn that they can get tings faster by paying a bitmore, and some do, but by that time they already have their clothing and swords they wanted and the deed is done.

Nonsense. I've been at this since the 4th of July, and I'm still buying clothes and swords, and the islands still buy plenty of raw materials (especially the new shoppes). I learned pretty quick that it's worth some extra poe if you don't have to wait a week for delivery. It's just a matter of getting the word out about your service. (Consider this another request to let shoppekeepers put up signs.)

Cedric wrote: 
...in any event, you can pay as much as you like for labor, someone will best that price, and the limited number of people who actually seek jobs will run away from you to the other place.

...increased prices won't be offset by incresed income. Most income is earned through pillaging and you can only earn so much money pillaging, there is no asking the boss for a raise.

You've just contradicted yourself. A shoppekeeper (a good one, at least) won't price himself out of the market altogether. There's a limit to what he can pay for labor and still make sales and turn a profit. It's not a never-ending upward spiral.

I do agree with you that it's all moot as soon as the crafting puzzles come into play. I'm betting we'll see some serious (and probably painful) shaking out while the labor force straightens itself out. And masochist that I am, I'm looking forward to it!

--Sq
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Squid
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[Sep 29, 2003 3:20:03 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://looterati.goldfish.org [Link]  Go to top 
Aur

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I really don't see this problem. My shop has been open for two days on guava and I am only offering 5poe an hour. I already have 52 of my 60 employees. You can argue that not all of them are producing what they should, but for right now, all my rum times are basically down to 15 minutes for an order. That isn't too bad.


I don't see where this is a huge problem. It makes things more competitive for shop owners and give people that do not own shops a good way to make extra poe. If prices were to go up, is that really such a bad thing? People are becoming insanely wealthy right now as it is with 100k and above pirates not so uncommon.
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~Aur
Original Riot Starter

"So now you know, and knowing is half the battle. The other half is HWFO." -Hermes
[Sep 29, 2003 3:25:35 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kraken



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I still dont agree with you. It sounds like you are describing a completely different problem (one of many) with the economy (that there be nothing for people to spend their poe on after a month or so) that was "patched" by shopkeepers exploiting a (arguably) bug in the game which allowed them to use labor they should not have really had at their dispense.

The wage war may get to be very tedious, tho I just started on Saturday and haven't had enough time at it to get annoyed, so my opinon may change as I gain more experience. I agree that implementing experience based skills will help solve this problem. Even tho the puzzles are not implemented, I think this theory should be tested using the stand-in puzzle in place of real puzzles, yet giving the experience the way it would if the real puzzles were implemented. I don't know how hard it is for the devs to "turn it on", maybe we can get some of their input on this thread eventually..

And for the last issue, owning a shop isnt costing me any maintenance poe, thus I only stand to gain money, even if it is at an extremely slow pace. During which time I can go out pillaging and make the poe I would have made anyway. Now, that will probably detract from being a good manager, and will slow my income from the shop to a crawl, but there will be a good balance in there somewhere as sitting in my shop managing it all day doesnt really get me sales any faster than if I were there only half of the time or even a quarter of the time.

Really owning a shop for my partners and I isn't really to make money. It's to get experience owning a shop and seeing what it is like, while giving others in our crew a chance at the same experience without having to save forever for a shop of their own. This may be part of Jack's experiment as well..
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Gorth

Midnight:
-Senior Officer of Dastardly Deviant Devils.

Azure:
-Owner of Spring Blade Iron Monger on Spring Island.
-Senior Officer of Dastardly Deviant Devils.
[Sep 29, 2003 3:27:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
biohazard



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Aur wrote: 
I really don't see this problem. My shop has been open for two days on guava and I am only offering 5poe an hour. I already have 52 of my 60 employees. You can argue that not all of them are producing what they should, but for right now, all my rum times are basically down to 15 minutes for an order. That isn't too bad.


well these labor problems most shops are having now is hardly noticed by owners of distillers( and apothecaries) since the really short time each order takes to make... it's really rare that ye should have a any backlog worth mentioning with those...

tailors, weavers and mongers on the other hand are now forced to see their backlog increasing from around 1-2h in best cases to around 2+ days for the same amount of orders...
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Embla
Retired first mate of the Black Widows
Princess of the Pillage People

- People are calling me insane, as if that was a bad thing...
[Sep 29, 2003 3:49:02 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cleaver
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The supposition above is correct; we removed people who've not logged in for 10 days (and continue to do so) in order to concentrate jobs in the hands of people who actually play, rather than have wages paid into accounts that then just sit there forever. This is going to become more an issue still when the game goes commercial, and would in any case have happened when we introduce crafting puzzles (the idea being that unless you puzzle at your job at least once every 10 days you've basically 'quit' the job.)
[Sep 29, 2003 6:18:37 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.puzzlepirates.com/ [Link]  Go to top 
Aur

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biohazard wrote: 
Aur wrote: 
I really don't see this problem. My shop has been open for two days on guava and I am only offering 5poe an hour. I already have 52 of my 60 employees. You can argue that not all of them are producing what they should, but for right now, all my rum times are basically down to 15 minutes for an order. That isn't too bad.


well these labor problems most shops are having now is hardly noticed by owners of distillers( and apothecaries) since the really short time each order takes to make... it's really rare that ye should have a any backlog worth mentioning with those...

tailors, weavers and mongers on the other hand are now forced to see their backlog increasing from around 1-2h in best cases to around 2+ days for the same amount of orders...



Aye, Embla. I forgot about the quickness of the rum. I can see how the bigger items can cause bigger headaches.
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~Aur
Original Riot Starter

"So now you know, and knowing is half the battle. The other half is HWFO." -Hermes
[Sep 29, 2003 8:01:38 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cedric

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Cleaver wrote: 
The supposition above is correct; we removed people who've not logged in for 10 days (and continue to do so) in ordert to concentrate jobs in the hands of people who actually play, rather than have wages paid into accounts that then just sit there forever. This is going to become more an issue still when the game goes commercial, and would in any case have happened when we introduce crafting puzzles (the idea being that unless you puzzle at your job at least once every 10 days you've basically 'quit' the job.)



I'm just saying that in our current "azure" situation, those idle workers were really needed to meet the demand for labor. These new people who are taking jobs now, are for the most part, doing a poor job of it. I've had to take 3 or 4 newbs to task over the past few das as they began bragging that they had gotten 3 good jobs. I explained that by taking three jobs, they are provding very little to any of the shop owners, except take up a precious employement spot. Current owners had spent a good while molding their workforce so that it provided labor effeciently, and I'm not certain that will be possible to do in our current situation with the abundance of jobs. Posting in the forum telling people you'll pay 25 an hour if you only work there and don't forage might work, but its troublesome at best.


While we're on the subject of labor, lets revisit Alt-labor. There's still no reason to allocate 12 hours of labor to yon Maverick-alt when he has nor ever has had a job. I don't play him daily, perhaps only once a week sometimes, but he's still important enough that I don't want to destroy him, but in turn it means Ced can't get a decent job because he doesn't get his 24 hours. Can't it just be so that labor is split among "job-holding" alts. Maverick still couldn't forage since that requires a job to do. So, I lose 12 hours by simply _having_ an alt, even if I don't seek to use their labor.
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Captain of the Yellow Jackets (Midnight)
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[Sep 29, 2003 8:14:42 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Maverick1701 [Link]  Go to top 
Jothmar



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Even if things do start taking some time to produce I don't really see a problem with that. I generally order rum and cannon balls when I have no intention of picking them up for some time just because I'll know I have them when I do need them. All this forces people to do is plan ahead a little. If you need something, and you need it now, you'll be willing to pay higher prices, like Kraken plans on having, but if you're buying for a future need you'll be wanting to pay less and be willing to have a longer wait time.

On a slightly different note, would an Ultimate distiller (or whatever) still take an hour to do unskilled labor? It seems to me that they might be able to work faster then someone who was only able at them. Something like this might also help 'fix' the economy.
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Kelyon Hawk of Fidelis Bellum
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Vgnight



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ill be happy to have him working at my shop ill even hop him over i need jobbers baddly right now. For some reason my flag has still not gotten not to forage till island is up. Tho it does not pay good yet (2 an hour) i will be raising these prices soon.
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Badgundo



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Something that I would find really cool is to not be fired an hour after taking the job because the shop owner [Cailet, I am frowning at you] decided he/she didn't want to pay the wage, or would rather pay it to a buddy/crewmate or whatever. Kind of defeats the purpose of shopping around for a decent wage.

BadGundo, Cap'n of the Sea Ogres, King of the Monsters of the Sea.
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BadGundo, Cap'n of the Sea Ogres
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pacey2169



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you know what i have found worse then high wait time shops being short on a comodity (i.e wood and iron)

i like my job Mr.cleaver pays me well
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Tad officer of the Mad Mutineers
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