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MakaiNoFalco

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A few simple sword questions. Reply to this Post
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I just have a few things I want answered by the people who know what they're doing. I don't want people posting links to drop pattern diagrams or past threads, because, quite frankly, I'm an idiot when it comes to understanding drop patterns, and no past thread I've seen has explained anything without requiring basic knowledge of the pattern. Please post if you know the answer to my questions.


The way I understand it.

Skull Dagger: Top notch in sprinkles and mass sprinkles. So-so 1x4s. Mass strikes are lousey. the only way you want to mass strike with this thing is if you're going for an instakill.

Falchion: The opposite of the Skull Dagger. Great mass strikes, crappy sprinkles, decient 1x4s.

Cleaver: Weakness or strength depends on an opponent's skill level. It can slice through greenies and bots like no other blade, but a master swordfighter can break and return your strikes easily.

Scimitar: It's best to send big swords with this one, but sprinkles aren't a bad option either.


And now the questions.

Am I right on these decriptions? If not, what is right?

I know the "Big Four" opperate in a rock paper scissors style, where one sword is great at killing one of the others, but can be killed easily by yet another of the big four. What beats what?

Would I be right in assuming that over 50% of the great swordfighters on Midnight Ocean use Skull Daggers?


Thanks for your time.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by MakaiNoFalco at Jan 9, 2006 12:30:36 PM]
[Jan 9, 2006 12:30:06 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Rick9109

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Re: A few simple sword questions. Reply to this Post
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I believe you're pretty on. There are situations where sprinkles are good with a falchion (against a skull dagger) and I've never used a cleaver full time. Playing against a cleaver I have trouble considering it a top 4 sword: I'd put the saber ahead of it.

Saber is a luck sword, in theory. If your opponent doesn't get enough of a certain-color breaker, they lose (depending on your sword). The lefthand version of this sword seems to have some pretty difficult-to-clear small strikes, but once again, I haven't extensively tested this sword.
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Rome
Pirates of the Damned, Crimson Tide.
I don't care what it did to them, the game's been good to me.
[Jan 9, 2006 12:52:25 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    rick9109    cactusrome [Link]  Go to top 
bronzebeard

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Re: A few simple sword questions. Reply to this Post
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Skulls aren't that bad for strikes, really (especially horizontals!). I'd say the best way to use the skull is to send a good mixture. If you send mass sprinkles alone, the sides connect up, and if that's the case you might as well us a stiletto.

Falc, yeah, big swords, lay off the sprinkles.

Scimi - I wouldn't say it has good sprinkles, but they're a definite improvement on the falc. Sides connect up easily if people are slow though.

Like Rome says, dunno why the cleaver is in your top 4.

Dunno about 50% using a skull either. It seems to me there's a fair amount of skulls and falcs at the moment, with the odd scimi. There are a few good sabers and some good short sword players about too.
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[Jan 9, 2006 3:03:45 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
TianX9



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Re: A few simple sword questions. Reply to this Post
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Skulls are excellent strike swords if you strike large infrequently with large amounts of sprinkles or very often with decent amounts. Any medium gets you killed. On skull daggers, though, I'm lead to believe that you're either excellent with them or you're horrendous. It's very hard to learn the style, though someone may correct me.

The scimitar 1x4s are superior to the falchions due to being accompanied by sprinkles if you're going the constant quick strike route.

Cleavers suck if your opponent knows what they're doing. Don't buy them.

Sabers are NOT luck swords. In the right hands, they will completely and totally eat through falchions. Against an unskilled opponent wielding a saber you're better off than if they were using a dirk or even a foil and at mid-levels they do often go to the person that gets the right breakers. By absolutely no means is it luck-based at the top level, though I've only seen two people effectively use them on the Viridian.
[Jan 9, 2006 3:14:08 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Rick9109

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Re: A few simple sword questions. Reply to this Post
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Aye, I think I've played at least one of those players quite a bit and the saber seems so much more dominant than in most hands. I say lucky in theory though, because I am pretty sure tedv posted that was the intent of the sword. Yet at least one dev in game told me that he thinks it's overpowered. I don't think it's overpowered for the sheer difficulty of proper use in one on one matchups. Now in brawls . . .
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Rome
Pirates of the Damned, Crimson Tide.
I don't care what it did to them, the game's been good to me.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Rick9109 at Jan 9, 2006 3:55:15 PM]
[Jan 9, 2006 3:54:19 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    rick9109    cactusrome [Link]  Go to top 
Demonyaj

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Re: A few simple sword questions. Reply to this Post
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I still don't think sabers hold a candle to falches. They beat up scims, but falch? Not a chance.
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Denying the inevitable for as long as possible is a waste of life's work.
[Jan 9, 2006 5:29:09 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
drc500free

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Re: A few simple sword questions. Reply to this Post
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So what's the correct way of using a saber?
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-Darvid
sundancer wrote: 
will you please explain to me one more time why it would not be acceptable to blockade us?
Squid wrote: 
Because I shouldn't have to go through all that effort.

[Jan 9, 2006 9:14:07 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
limoni



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Re: A few simple sword questions. Reply to this Post
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Demonyaj, maker of frequent and bold claims about swords wrote: 
I still don't think sabers hold a candle to falches.

My memory about our past sword matchups is failing me, so this might be redundant, but: I'm skeptical enough of this claim to ask for a set of my saber vs. your falch. I do know that my saber gives random falches at the brawl table big trouble, but I suppose there could be other reasons for that.

Darvid wrote: 
So what's the correct way of using a saber?
When I use it against strong fighters, I try to send very frequent mixed attacks, preferably after a medium-sized sword-heavy opener. I might ought to use more large swords or horizontals, in the hopes of sending more than two colors more often, but I'm not sure that the two-color clutter hurts me more often than it helps. I feel like the saber compliments my playing for speed over large combos mid-game.

As for the original post, I agree with the other voices here saying that the cleaver doesn't fit in the list, and that the saber does. I haven't fought enough against a single player with different sword combinations to say for sure how I feel about the rock-paper-scissors thing. Right now, it seems like it may be even more complicated than that (e.g. that if Tianx uses a dagger against me, I'm better off with scim than saber, but that my saber is as good as or better than my scim against another ult's dagger).
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- Limoni.
[Jan 10, 2006 11:55:18 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Demonyaj

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Re: A few simple sword questions. Reply to this Post
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Lim, whose saber is evil wrote: 
Demonyaj, maker of frequent and bold claims about swords wrote: 
I still don't think sabers hold a candle to falches.

My memory about our past sword matchups is failing me, so this might be redundant, but: I'm skeptical enough of this claim to ask for a set of my saber vs. your falch. I do know that my saber gives random falches at the brawl table big trouble, but I suppose there could be other reasons for that.
You might be an exception, but I go for the second combo 2x4-3x9 nearly every time against sabers, and get it enough of the time by hitting fast and first and making the saber player send 1 row sprinkles. Barring that, I just stay low and just let the saber player swing away- eventually, I get a nice mass in two colors- the primary breaker sets off horizontals and junk, and sets up the secondary and tertiary to be comboed off each other (usually in 2x3 or 2x4 blocks) for the finisher. If nothing else, a saber user that is mass sprinkling can give falches hell- you eliminate the ability to easily make primary color blocks. Spreading short strikes in the mass sprinkles makes life even worse- but staying low and making strike doubles can annul even that strategy in the long game.
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Denying the inevitable for as long as possible is a waste of life's work.
[Jan 10, 2006 12:09:11 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
doggie



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Re: A few simple sword questions. Reply to this Post
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This may just be me, but I know that I find Limoni much harder as a scimmy user and our matches usually go back and forth. If memory serves me correctly, she used to beat me up saber vs falch, but when I brought out the scimmy I was able to win easier.

I agree with Demon's assessment of why sabers give falchs hell.

I would also say that the cleaver does not belong in the top 4.
[Jan 11, 2006 10:24:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
rixation

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Re: A few simple sword questions. Reply to this Post
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Heh, what really cracks me up about this discussion, and the drop patterns of the swords in general, is that while everyone is of the general concensus that the cleaver is not in the top 4, while the saber is a top-4-worthy sword...compare prices on a yellow/yellow cleaver, saber, falch, skull, and scimi. Sabers are cheapest of the lot, at least on Cobalt and Sage. That's just....amusing.

Epi,
finds humor in the oddest things
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Epimetheus
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[Jan 11, 2006 10:41:34 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Demonyaj

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Re: A few simple sword questions. Reply to this Post
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For the longest time, not even considering doubs (which skews this more), a green-green falchion on Viridian was far cheaper than any of the green-green variants of the other four swords listed.

So far, saber-falch testing is coming up near even. If the saber player makes the push with two row sprinkles and short double strikes, they take control as long as they keep making attacks. If the falch player can attack first and keep ordered, they win the drag out fight as the strikes and horizontals generate inevitability.
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Denying the inevitable for as long as possible is a waste of life's work.
[Jan 11, 2006 10:52:10 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
gotty



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Re: A few simple sword questions. Reply to this Post
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No love for the Short Sword?
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[Jan 11, 2006 11:34:05 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
drc500free

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Re: A few simple sword questions. Reply to this Post
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No love for the Short Sword?
Skull Dagger--

I'm sure someone better than me will now post why that's inaccurate, but the only benefit I can see of an SS over an SD is economy.
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-Darvid
sundancer wrote: 
will you please explain to me one more time why it would not be acceptable to blockade us?
Squid wrote: 
Because I shouldn't have to go through all that effort.

[Jan 11, 2006 12:32:49 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Demonyaj

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Re: A few simple sword questions. Reply to this Post
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Stickiness- it's one of the reasons the saber can be exceedingly hard, as well. Your strikes make blocks. So, if you execute a 2x6 atop a 2x4, you take up 2x10 worth of room and maintain color layering. With a falch, a 2x6 atop a 2x4, you get a 2x8 and eliminate the color change from the 2x4 in either 1-2 or 5-6 (note- strikes are shown to pierce 1/3rd the blocks that that sword consists of unless it hits a fused brick, so a 2x6 pierces 12/3 = 4 blocks) as you duplicate the first 2 rows of the pattern atop one another. A short sword is more efficient, but less effective than a skull dagger in short strikes. You're also more likely to get high horizontals off a short sword.
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Denying the inevitable for as long as possible is a waste of life's work.
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