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Demeter
OceanMaster
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[Renamed] Commodity availability and trading discussion Reply to this Post
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Edit: I've renamed this to something slightly more appropriate - thanks for continuing the discussion after my unfortunate booch!

I moved this topic from the Bazaar as it was turning into a discussion, but forgot to uncheck the "leave shadow topic" - then deleted the original thread which was still in the Bazaar, & both have now disappeared :(

Apologies to everyone involved in that discussion.

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Demeter - who hangs her (blonde, funnily enough) head in shame and goes to hide in a small dark corner of Eleusis.
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"Demeter is sneeeaky." Trickykid

Avatar by Greylady
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Demeter at Sep 23, 2003 12:46:57 AM]
[Sep 23, 2003 12:46:57 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Re: [Renamed] Commodity availability and trading discussion Reply to this Post
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Well, I was just saying that everyone who thinks that the economy is OK as is, is wrong. Horribly, painfully wrong.
[Sep 23, 2003 12:51:35 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
Kraken



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Re: [Renamed] Commodity availability and trading discussion Reply to this Post
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Argh. I typed up this long post in response to the now deleted thread that was here.. I'll just quote myself. In short, I agree with Hom. The economy on Azure is severely booched, but I don't believe there is a solution for it. There can only be a solution once midnight is opened.


Long post from now deleted thread... wrote: 

I think its easy for shopkeepers to do this now because everything in the game is close-by. That is, any shopkeeper can go about and get anything they need in a resonable amount of time by foraging or camping or just talking to people in their own flag. Top that with every single inhabited island having at least one of every kind of shop, all of which offer every kind of product in every color, and every island being no more than 20 minutes from every other island and you have some problems.. Right now there is no incentive for people NOT to pay the lowest price, as it doesnt really take any more time or effort to sail to and collect goods from those people than it does from anyone else (with the exception of shops that have 1 day + waiting time... of which I still dont understand since their prices are the same as those with only a couple hours waiting time..). If a shops supply took a substantial amount of effort to maintain, ie; all the supplies were spread out to the point that it would take a shopkeeper 8-12 hours of sailing around just to collect enough stuff to do a couple hours worth of business, then I think the economy would start to correct itself.
It's just too easy to get to things right now. Make harder, more aggressive brigands stalk foraging routes. Make foraging routes more distant. Place populated archs farther away from each other. Place better commodity limits for things to make them more rare, then limit their location to one area of the ocean. Change the formulas for many final products to include unique commodities, that way we can make sure that each store type between archs sell different types of things, that way people will be encouraged to sail that long trecherous path to get exotic items (exotic for their arch). There are a lot of things that could be done to better the economy. Sadly, I dont think the economy on Azure will ever work because things are just too close together. We can only hope for a better setup when Midnight is opened.

----------------------------------------
Gorth

Midnight:
-Senior Officer of Dastardly Deviant Devils.

Azure:
-Owner of Spring Blade Iron Monger on Spring Island.
-Senior Officer of Dastardly Deviant Devils.
[Sep 23, 2003 12:54:16 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Bocheezu



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Re: [Renamed] Commodity availability and trading discussion Reply to this Post
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The economy will drastically change so much when flag vs flag battles, blockades, tariffs, etc are implemented that I don't see how it's worth complaining about what we have now. None of it's gonna change until release.
[Sep 23, 2003 2:00:44 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Re: [Renamed] Commodity availability and trading discussion Reply to this Post
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The economy will drastically change so much when flag vs flag battles, blockades, tariffs, etc are implemented that I don't see how it's worth complaining about what we have now. None of it's gonna change until release.


It COULD change before release. It won't, but it COULD, if players changed their short-sighted ways.

I don't think flag wars or anything will change the economy much, for the simple reason that most stuff is available on most islands . . . having one or two or seven islands blockaded won't prevent people from getting stuff.
[Sep 23, 2003 2:49:57 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
cmdrzoom

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Re: [Renamed] Commodity availability and trading discussion Reply to this Post
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More to the point, right now if a certain thing is not in ready supply/on sale for a cheap, er, reasonable price, the assumption tends to be that the supply chain is broken somewhere.

Tighten supply, and increased demand will manifest primarily in more whining.
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Starhawk of Mad Mutineers, Azure
Catalina of Twilight's Sabre, Cobalt
[Sep 23, 2003 3:27:00 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
stevoid



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Re: [Renamed] Commodity availability and trading discussion Reply to this Post
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When the trading changes discussed come in, I'm hoping that more players will start to trade - just now it's too risky that you'll be left with nothing to sell even if you're paying the highest prices to get it. The Big Board should also help a lot so that smaller crews can see prices at other islands so they can decide where to sell.
[Sep 23, 2003 3:30:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Re: [Renamed] Commodity availability and trading discussion Reply to this Post
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I agree, I think, with the esteemed Mr. Hawk. There is a skewed sense of what "reasonable " prices are.
[Sep 23, 2003 3:31:26 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
cmdrzoom

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Re: [Renamed] Commodity availability and trading discussion Reply to this Post
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There's a lot of other "reasonable" assumptions that need to be decided on before we can get to prices. Remember that every "no" answer reduces someone's fun.

Is it reasonable for everyone to be able to get clothes in the color (other than black) and style they want? If so, how soon after they wash ashore? If not, how will you deal with the ragamuffins and paupers in brown?

Is it reasonable for your average pirate to be a shipowner, eventually? If not, what percentage? How long should it take to save for that first small sloop?

Is it reasonable that there will always be rum and cannonballs cheaply available so players can go out and have fun on the seas? If not, how will you deal with the restless crowds on the docks?

I'm sure there are other questions I don't know enough to ask. I'm also sure that new players will have different answers from older ones. These are all issues that will have to be addressed at Midnight launch; Azure's economy is probably too muddled, and too hampered by the beta-assumption that anything unfun is a bug, to have any hope of being made "reasonable" now. (That, and the explosive growth of beta makes it hard to do much managing of the economy on-the-fly, except in a patching mode.)
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Starhawk of Mad Mutineers, Azure
Catalina of Twilight's Sabre, Cobalt
[Sep 23, 2003 3:44:41 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Slummock



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Re: [Renamed] Commodity availability and trading discussion Reply to this Post
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cmdrzoom wrote: 
There's a lot of other "reasonable" assumptions that need to be decided on before we can get to prices. Remember that every "no" answer reduces someone's fun.


maybe in the short term, but having something to aim for will keep people on the game. i dont really know how many people are going to bother with the "meta-game" or whatever but i think that kind of thing is vital to the long term greatness of puzzle pirates.
7
 
Is it reasonable for everyone to be able to get clothes in the color (other than black) and style they want? If so, how soon after they wash ashore? If not, how will you deal with the ragamuffins and paupers in brown?


the only reason people expect that now is because its usualy true, it wont seem unreasonable to new players who come in when its not true that its easy to get everything. having black as the only badge of status would get very dull when, after a few months everybody has black

 
Is it reasonable for your average pirate to be a shipowner, eventually? If not, what percentage? How long should it take to save for that first small sloop?


thats a tough one, if everybody is a captain then who will be their crew? hopefully not everybody will want a ship, or will realise that captaining is not for them, or something, so it will balance out.

 
Is it reasonable that there will always be rum and cannonballs cheaply available so players can go out and have fun on the seas? If not, how will you deal with the restless crowds on the docks?


yes thats totaly reasonable, if the meta-game gets in the way of people who just want to play then something is not right.
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Glub (again)
[Sep 23, 2003 6:18:35 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kraken



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Re: [Renamed] Commodity availability and trading discussion Reply to this Post
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cmdrzoom wrote: 
Is it reasonable for everyone to be able to get clothes in the color (other than black) and style they want? If so, how soon after they wash ashore? If not, how will you deal with the ragamuffins and paupers in brown?


Yes, but it should require a great deal of work more than it does now. Some styles and colors should be fairly easily obtainable within your arch, but each arch should have different styles and colors readily available (ie: fix the every shop has everything anyone could ever want problem)

 

Is it reasonable for your average pirate to be a shipowner, eventually? If not, what percentage? How long should it take to save for that first small sloop?


Yes, but keep in mind that owning a ship does not mean being captain. A good number of people in our crew own ships (not myself, im saving for a shop) but we still only have one captain. Right now its not a problem of everyone owning their own ship, its a problem of everyone wanting to own their ship and be their own captain, and sail around tromping on brigands, trying to run crews when they dont know how, etc, etc..

 

Is it reasonable that there will always be rum and cannonballs cheaply available so players can go out and have fun on the seas? If not, how will you deal with the restless crowds on the docks?


In my opinion, cannonballs should always be cheap. At least until they introduce new types of shot, in which case there should be some price differences.

Rum on the other hand should not be extremely cheap. There needs to be more of a use for swill and grog, and the best way to do that is to make rum a little more scarce and a little more expensive. (From what I gather, swill and grog have the same effect as rum, they just dont last as long.) I think this will take care of itself when people have to do the crafting puzzles and supply different qulities of hours. You'll have lots of people who can make swill, a bit less that can make grog, and a lot less that can make rum.
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Gorth

Midnight:
-Senior Officer of Dastardly Deviant Devils.

Azure:
-Owner of Spring Blade Iron Monger on Spring Island.
-Senior Officer of Dastardly Deviant Devils.
[Sep 23, 2003 6:40:07 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jothmar



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Re: [Renamed] Commodity availability and trading discussion Reply to this Post
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I would like to put in a big ditto for what Kraken posted. While it may seem that a person who wants that green suit and can't get one will be disappointed and make the game 'not as fun' I think it would actually have the opposite effect, that of making him want to work for that green suite. Either save up his money to pay the incredibly high prices in his arch or maybe save up for a ship then make the long sail out to china (you know what I mean, I hope) to be able to get the suit for cheaper. When he does get that green suit he'll have a sence of accomplishment that wouldn't come if he could just go any where to get it. While the green suit might be a bit silly I think that that would be the affect no matter what the commodity was. And when he gets back to his home arch (if he decides to go back) he'll look like a very traveled man who's gone places and seen things. For me at least it would greatly increase the enjoyment of the game, not that it isn't awesome already. I would like to be able to be a very profitable merchant and although you can make some money, the money isn't great right now, merchanting should be a viable option considering the efforts I'm sure the creators when to, to set up the incredible economy of Azure.
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Kelyon Hawk of Fidelis Bellum
[Sep 23, 2003 6:44:25 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Re: [Renamed] Commodity availability and trading discussion Reply to this Post
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Well, I agree so far. I think it should take longer to get nice clothing.

I think there should be a point to using lesser liquors.

I don't think it should be too pricey to sail or shoot.

I think it should be worthwhile to pillage a PP ship's goods.

Nothing should ever be impossible or out of somebody's reach, but black should be rare and exciting. The people who are really rich or powerful or lucky SHOULD be able to flaunt it. One thing I do like in other games is seeing somebody and KNOWING they are, or did, something special, just by what they're wearing.

I also like it that you can be something special without owning pretty clothing.
[Sep 23, 2003 6:55:52 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
cmdrzoom

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Re: [Renamed] Commodity availability and trading discussion Reply to this Post
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homullus wrote: 

I think there should be a point to using lesser liquors.


Good point, and it's significant that I didn't think of it - at present, there's simply no reason to buy anything but fine rum, all the time.

 

I think it should be worthwhile to pillage a PP ship's goods.


However, a middle ground must be found between making pillaging traders worth it and making it so tempting that, out of frustration at being mobbed by PPs and brigands, the traders stop sailing. Then an island's supply chain booches because no goods are being moved...

It's a delicate balancing act, making sure that each sub-population of players is having enough fun to keep performing their roles in society.
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Starhawk of Mad Mutineers, Azure
Catalina of Twilight's Sabre, Cobalt
[Sep 23, 2003 5:04:38 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
spinn

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Re: [Renamed] Commodity availability and trading discussion Reply to this Post
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I wonder about decisions being made in the name of fun, though--camping is certainly not fun, but people do it anyway. Or, you could say it's an activity that you can't imagine is fun, but people enjoy regardless.

If PvP pillaging started in earnest, I think it'd change the mode of trading, but it wouldn't dry it up.
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And thus, the message is concluded.
[Sep 23, 2003 5:40:53 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.spinnwebe.com/ [Link]  Go to top 
Kraken



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Re: [Renamed] Commodity availability and trading discussion Reply to this Post
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cmdrzoom wrote: 

However, a middle ground must be found between making pillaging traders worth it and making it so tempting that, out of frustration at being mobbed by PPs and brigands, the traders stop sailing. Then an island's supply chain booches because no goods are being moved...


There are already mechanics in place to prevent ganging up on traders. Once (if) they lose, they cannot be attacked again for a good amount of time.

And you also have to remember that even if they are attacked and lose some of their goods (only 10% at a time), those goods arent lost, and will still most likely end up at the islands (unless they are lost to brigands). The pillagers will gain some of that commodity, and be able to sell it themselves, thus keeping the supply chain going, yet spreading the wealth out a bit.

It'll make prices for commodities go up to compensate for the loss, which will make the prices of goods go up, but thats not entirely a bad thing either as it seems most people agree that things are too cheap right now.
----------------------------------------
Gorth

Midnight:
-Senior Officer of Dastardly Deviant Devils.

Azure:
-Owner of Spring Blade Iron Monger on Spring Island.
-Senior Officer of Dastardly Deviant Devils.
[Sep 23, 2003 11:15:45 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
cmdrzoom

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Re: [Renamed] Commodity availability and trading discussion Reply to this Post
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Kraken wrote: 
And you also have to remember that even if they are attacked and lose some of their goods (only 10% at a time), those goods arent lost, and will still most likely end up at the islands (unless they are lost to brigands). The pillagers will gain some of that commodity, and be able to sell it themselves, thus keeping the supply chain going, yet spreading the wealth out a bit.


I thought of this - but consider that trading is already considered a thankless, tedious job. If it becomes much less fun, people might stop doing it altogether. (The same is true if the traders don't feel they can make a profit, because prices are too low. Like I said, a balancing act between two extremes.)

Then again, perhaps I'm reacting to the tenor of discussion on these boards, which tends to the critical: "I'm not having fun, and this is why."
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Starhawk of Mad Mutineers, Azure
Catalina of Twilight's Sabre, Cobalt
[Sep 24, 2003 3:48:07 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kraken



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From my perspective, adding a bit of danger to the task would make it more fun, not less. It will make foraging/trading much more thrilling, and likewise make PvP much more thrilling and rewarding as well. If we can assume that a shop owner wont be able to stock their own shop on Midnight without being online 24 hours a day, then the task of trader will become a much more thankful job.

I am against anything that hands out PoE without doing any work, or taking any risk. Might be part of the reason I like the brigands thouroughly spanking ships full of people on occasion (and would like the difficulty of the AI to remain as is).
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Gorth

Midnight:
-Senior Officer of Dastardly Deviant Devils.

Azure:
-Owner of Spring Blade Iron Monger on Spring Island.
-Senior Officer of Dastardly Deviant Devils.
[Sep 24, 2003 4:32:16 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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