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Dylan

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Blockade redesign meta-discussion Reply to this Post
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This is such a hot topic that there are literally hundreds of ideas, many of them good, out there already.

We all know that there is 'something' wrong with blockades, but none of us are quite sure how to fix it. We always end up proposing our own solutions, rather than trying to work out what the problem is for everybody else. In this thread, I'd like to see discussion of what is right and wrong with blockades as they are, as well as proposed solutions (with links), but no new solutions. The point is to be able to digest all those other threads.

So, my abridged notes on CURRENT BLOCKADES:

PRO.
Multi-ship action is great fun
Flag point collection is simple and works
Zone of control for ships is simple and works

CON.
Expensive
Often boring
Almost always the same format - bring as much as you can
Stakes very high, leading to massive alliances

Dylan
[Nov 4, 2005 11:53:02 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Whitefire

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Problem: Blockades are, in general, Unfun (tm) due to the following:

    -Enormous amount of resources that must be collected
    -Enourmous amount of resources that must be moved long distances
    -Very few positions that are fun to play for 5 hours straight.
    -A 10% manpower disparity creates a steamroller which is generally accepted as Unfun (tm).
    -Island ownership rarely covers the cost to blockade, and gives a flag nothing more than an ego claim.

[Nov 4, 2005 11:57:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ponytailguy

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If I may respond to the cons: (These are general comments, not directed at Dylan by any means)

EXPENSIVE: As it should be. If you can't raise an exorbinant sum of money, at least on subscription oceans, you aren't as successful as other crews are in terms of commerce, and that's what islands are: commercial centres. Blockades are expensive, partially because they should be rare (five blockades a weekend is just foolish and frustrating for flags trying to find jobbers), and partially because pistchy little flags of marginal success should not be running islands; islands are somewhat like flagwide familiars to that extent, and people who think everyone should have a familiar often find themselves shot down instantly for good reason.

OFTEN BORING: Such is life. Bring a book or listen to Shanty Raid-io.

SAME FORMAT/BRING ALL YOU CAN: Yes, that's how it works. Might matters in all forms of physical combat, whether it's banging ships into each other, throwing rocks at each other, playing dodgeball, or any other team sport. If I've got fourty guys and you've got five, then you're foolish for taking me on in the first place.

HIGH STAKES: As it should be.
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The Ghost of Oceans Past
[Nov 4, 2005 12:00:16 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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OFTEN BORING: Such is life. Bring a book or listen to Shanty Raid-io.

Such is not in the best interest of a game people pay to play.
[Nov 4, 2005 12:06:47 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
Whitefire

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EXPENSIVE


I think you miss the underlying point. It's expensive with no means of recouperation of that cost. i.e. there is little reason to make such a large expense.

 
OFTEN BORING: Such is life. Bring a book or listen to Shanty Raid-io.


This whole line of reasoning is idiotic. Why should I pay to play a game that is boring? We pay to play this game because we find it fun, exciting and interesting. Well, at least I do. If it's not interesting, it needs to be changed or srapped.

EDIT: For spelling errors and damn snipers.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Whitefire at Nov 4, 2005 12:10:55 PM]
[Nov 4, 2005 12:09:00 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ponytailguy

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Re: No means to recoup, yes, and? If this was a major problem, nobody would ever blockade. Last time I checked, some islands have been around the block three to five times.

Re: Boring, again, then no blockades would ever happen, which isn't the case unless one is speaking hyperbolically.
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The Ghost of Oceans Past
[Nov 4, 2005 12:10:54 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dylan

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If I may respond to the cons


Feel free to respond to the cons, but what I am trying to achieve here is some way of discussing what is wrong with the current system, as well as proposals to fix it, without proposing a solution. Saying that the current system is just fine is neither a fix nor a solution.

I'm sure you've noted that of your 'con rebuttals', the only one that has got somebody jumping at ye is yer 'deal with boring'. That is by far the largest problem in the current system, incidentally.

Dylan
[Nov 4, 2005 12:15:38 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Whitefire

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Re: No means to recoup, yes, and? If this was a major problem, nobody would ever blockade. Last time I checked, some islands have been around the block three to five times.


Because, in the absence of monetery reasons, other, less constructive ones, are found. The islands you are mentioning, Jorvik and Cnossos, were blockaded out of ill will and a need to "fix" the island, respectively.

There have been...4? flags that blockade islands for fun?

How many flags drop a warchest once every two months? Divide that by the number of celebrated+ flags in the ocean. Now you have a rough percentage of the flags that play in blockades.

Whitefire
Who knows it's <0.01%
[Nov 4, 2005 12:18:01 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
atteSmythe

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Ooo, a meta-discussion? Very well: I think the discussion of blockade reform has consisted of too many damnable threads already. ;)

Smythe,
with love
----------------------------------------
 
Attesmythe receives loot: [Gauntlets of Social Responsibility]
Attesmythe receives loot: [Ring of Mandatory Selflessness]

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Whitefire

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Ooo, a meta-discussion? Very well: I think the discussion of blockade reform has consisted of too many damnable threads already. ;)


And I agree. It would be nice if a Dev stepped in and gave their opinion of these ideas sometimes ;D.
[Nov 4, 2005 12:41:06 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Ooo, a meta-discussion? Very well: I think the discussion of blockade reform has consisted of too many damnable threads already. ;)

Smythe,
with love

I never meta discussion I didn't like.
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imwamphyr

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Con: No rewards for anybody other than potential leadership roles of the new island.
----------------------------------------
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[Nov 4, 2005 1:04:15 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Pirate Muroni [Link]  Go to top 
Whitefire

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Con: No rewards for anybody other than potential leadership roles of the new island.


And the mostly empty reward of being in an island-holding flag.
[Nov 4, 2005 1:08:20 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Gunguy1



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Ok, possible solution:

1. lower costs
2. Increase resources
3. Every blockade should give me 5kpoe
4. Island/monkey in the middle.
5. Island defences.
6. More obsticals for blockades (only experienced players in blockades) aka, methane bubbles (auto sink in sinking blockades) that go off every 3 turns.
7. Possability of buried treasure in uninhabited island for winner.
8. Background piraty music (from Rollercoastertycoon 2)
9. an option that allows people to join a blockade for fun, free, without being able to take the island.
10. Cursed island (option of government, all citizens are skellies)

Like them?

If ye don't I'll make a pirate Union!
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Gunguy1 at Nov 4, 2005 1:09:49 PM]
[Nov 4, 2005 1:08:42 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Whitefire

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Pro: Encourages player interaction.
[Nov 4, 2005 1:09:19 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Argro

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Con: Noone can agree on what's wrong, or how to fix it.
----------------------------------------
Argro
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I've been inappropriate for a long time

[Nov 4, 2005 1:11:19 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Whitefire

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Ok, possible solution:

1. lower costs
2. Increase resources
3. Every blockade should give me 5kpoe
4. Island/monkey in the middle.
5. Island defences.
6. More obsticals for blockades (only experienced players in blockades) aka, methane bubbles (auto sink in sinking blockades) that go off every 3 turns.
7. Possability of buried treasure in uninhabited island for winner.
8. Background piraty music (from Rollercoastertycoon 2)
9. an option that allows people to join a blockade for fun, free, without being able to take the island.
10. Cursed island (option of government, all citizens are skellies)

Like them?

If ye don't I'll make a pirate Union!


Oy. Interesting ideas, however in this thread we're trying to identify pros and cons of the current blockade system and not propose any new fixes until we agree on what needs to be fixed.
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fr4nk

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Dylan wrote: 
We all know that there is 'something' wrong with blockades, but none of us are quite sure how to fix it.

If you're looking to discuss what is wrong with blockades as they stand, it's not just one simple thing. The biggest problem with discussing something like this is that almost everyone sees a different problem as being the only problem, instead of noticing that their one problem is actually comprised of a lot of little problems that have already been discussed, or noticing that their problem is actually part of a bigger problem that has already been discussed. Rehashing doesn't really get us anywhere but for discussion's sake it would be nice to have everyone's opinion in one place, so that searching doesn't bring up 100 threads all discussing the same thing in a myriad of different ways. The quote that Whitefire posted (not sure if it's his or someone else's or where it is from) is one that brings up a few of the smaller problems, and one of the biggest ones (in my opinion).

You listed one of the cons as being how high the stakes are. I really don't see that as a con, I see that as being something that is inherently a part of blockades that is not a down side at all. It's a blockade, the stakes are supposed to be high, this isn't a good thing or a bad thing, it's just one of the many pieces that, put together, make blockades as important as they are. If the stakes were low, that would be a con, because a fight that takes this much out of people should most certainly be worth something. I also think that blockades always being in the same format is the same as blockades being boring. A lot of things contribute to how boring a blockade is for the average person involved. It's just not interesting if you're not driving, organising, or gunning (which is less interesting than the two former, but still more interesting than carpenting or sailing for a 40 minute stretch). As for blockades being expensive, I'd expect them to be, but I do think that for wanting us to blockade a lot more, there isn't much being done to make it affordable for us to do so.

I feel that the fundamental problem with blockades is how few people actually feel involved (bear in mind this is the problem I see with blockading itself, and by no means do I think it is the biggest problem). Beyond how much a blockade costs, how boring it is, how repetitive it is, I think people need to feel like they did something more than puzzled for a few hours. Being able to say, "I was there!" doesn't really go far for someone who, at the end of a blockade, has a sore wrist from carpenting, sailing, bilging & etc. Because so little of the blockade is actually focused on the people who do most of the hard work, at the end of the day more and more people don't want to blockade anymore. Blockades were supposed to be a multi-ship battle that everyone enjoyed, and it sort of turned into this beast of a thankless job. Sure, there is blockade pay, but I and many others would probably have a lot more fun pillaging or swordfighting at the wager tables to make that 1,000PoE per hour, and I'd probably make more money doing either, feeling like I had accomplished a lot more. I blockade even with the problems that I feel exist, for a lot of strange reasons, very few of them are even game design related, but for JoePirate, there needs to be some sort of incentive, or at least a satisfied feeling afterwards. For flags not directly involved in a blockade, the feeling of accomplishment is even smaller. Yes I enjoy helping my allies, but really, how does that benefit me or my flag?

The biggest problem I see only half deals with blockading itself, that being incentive, and I discussed this at length in another thread. When I get /tells from people asking me why we don't blockade more often, why we don't attack other flags & etc., my typical response is, "Why should we?", and I know I'm not alone in thinking that should not be an immediate thought when asked those questions. I mean really, sit down and think about it for a few minutes, why blockade at all? What incentive is there? Let's say you win, you will be lucky to make that money back in a reasonable amount of time, if you make it back at all, and if you lose? What was it all really for?
----------------------------------------
Misery
[Nov 4, 2005 1:12:16 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.thecrimsontide.org    kyuuket5u [Link]  Go to top 
Gunguy1



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I can place suggestions now, can't I?
[Nov 4, 2005 1:12:38 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Whitefire

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Con: Noone can agree on what's wrong, or how to fix it.


Generally, the ones who disagree with whats wrong don't think blockades need to be changed from their current incarnation. Besides, your negativity is not appreciated, please be more constructive by adding to the discussion instead of saying "You're all wrong, hah!"
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ponytailguy

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Since I've never paid for a blockade, I earnestly don't know the answer to this question, but I do need one.

I assume Warchests are PoE sinks. Is this assumption correct?

If so, presumably the victor in a blockade could be rewarded with 1+(0.5*number of other chests dropped) the cost of a warchest (I.E: on a 100 000 PoE chest, with four chests dropped, you would win 1+0.5+0.5+0.5, or 2.5 warchests, or 250 000 PoE), with the rest being sunk. That at least provides some financial incentive to bother, provided you think you can win.
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The Ghost of Oceans Past
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by ponytailguy at Nov 4, 2005 1:15:52 PM]
[Nov 4, 2005 1:14:57 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Gunguy1



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Con: Noone can agree on what's wrong, or how to fix it.


Generally, the ones who disagree with whats wrong don't think blockades need to be changed from their current incarnation. Besides, your negativity is not appreciated, please be more constructive by adding to the discussion instead of saying "You're all wrong, hah!"



or, by agreeing on what can be done to fix it.
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Gunguy1



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Yes, it is a poe sink. And a dub sink also, I think.
[Nov 4, 2005 1:18:53 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Whitefire

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fr4nk wrote: 
What was it all really for?


Fun. But the fact that <0.01% of the population finds it fun enough to actively pursue them on a regular basis is pretty much proof that they are Unfun. I think Damien hit the issue on the nose. We need to seperate Blockades and Colonisation, make them fun/interesting/dynamic all on their own, then put them back together.
[Nov 4, 2005 1:21:54 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
imwamphyr

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Yes, it is a poe sink. And a dub sink also, I think.


Depends, if the defender wins, he gets a portion of the chest the attacker dropped, doesn't he? I think so, but I may be wrong...
----------------------------------------
Selling my Grunion Collection!
174 ships, 164 sloops, ALL GRUNIONS!
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fr4nk

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ponytailguy wrote: 
I assume Warchests are PoE sinks. Is this assumption correct?

Depends.. if the island is uncolonised, yes, the entire war chest is a PoE sink. If the island is already colonised, and the defender wins, they keep 25% of the war chest and the rest is sunk.

PS: Freakin' Muroni the sniper rises again.
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Misery
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by fr4nk at Nov 4, 2005 1:22:48 PM]
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imwamphyr

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I love you =)

Besides, wasn't a complete snipe. I wasn't sure, and I didn't know the ammount. So you win =)
----------------------------------------
Selling my Grunion Collection!
174 ships, 164 sloops, ALL GRUNIONS!
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ponytailguy

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So is there any reason not to up the ratio, and apply it to whoever wins regardless of defender status?

I mean, defending an outpost from a single attacking flag versus depending Turtle or Eta from all comers... you've gotta get more of a reward for the latter than the former.
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[Nov 4, 2005 1:25:08 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
fr4nk

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Whitefire wrote: 
fr4nk wrote: 
What was it all really for?


Fun. But the fact that <0.01% of the population finds it fun enough to actively pursue them on a regular basis is pretty much proof that they are Unfun. I think Damien hit the issue on the nose. We need to seperate Blockades and Colonisation, make them fun/interesting/dynamic all on their own, then put them back together.

That was a rhetorical question. =P
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Misery
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With regards to no metaphorical reward to blockades - are trinkets the answer?

"I participated in Jorvic MCMXXXIV and all I got was this stupid trinket!"
----------------------------------------
 
What Pip tried to do was something totally unprecedent. He, in some strange way, used Midnight as a test server, without him even knowing. [Crap, it sucks I was not online when he did that :'(... pfft, anyways]


Like a bad penny.
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