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homullus

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What would you do? Reply to this Post
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If you formed a crew based on the idea that all members should be equal, both in assigned tasks and in shares of the take, to the point of passing the captain's hat around to whomever would be on the most, only to have one such captain decide he now deserved twice the shares of all the other officers, among whom are three former captains of this same crew . . . what would you do? Hypothetically, of course.
[Mar 1, 2003 12:32:02 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
3eyedSusy



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I would a) Try to kick him off the crew, b) Start a mutiny or c) Depending how much of a problem I find this live with it.

Wildeyedjack
[Mar 1, 2003 9:55:47 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Thusnelda

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Cleaver, Nemo, I'd like to hear your take on this. A *hypothetical* bad apple takes over one way or another, and since crew politics are autocratic, this *hypothetical* crew could only get rid of said Captain Bad Apple through... forming another crew? Granted, this is the reality of autocratic rule, but I would like to bring up a couple thoughts.

1) This so-called crew has been through hell and high water with each other, and perhaps certain *hypothetical* players recently joined for the collegial atmosphere. Furthermore, what about the infrastructure? Jumping off means that a new crew would have to work their way up in boats, which isn't always very quick (especially pre-economy). Doesn't forming another crew seem a little off balance? If this crew could truly mutiny, it could retain the structure and membership of the original crew whilst giving the boot to CBA. How that would happen... well, it would conflict with autocratic rule, but then again mutiny ain't always pretty. Some sort of 75% rule or something... well, then we get into the age-old "How long is long?" argument, so I'll back off there.

2) Perhaps articles should be held fast. Perhaps shares could be messed with, but perhaps articles should be held fast and AMENDED if necessary, but only in the spirit in which they were written. If you don't agree with the articles, either don't join this particular crew or, if you're already in and don't agree with it, start yer own.
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Madam, proud Looterata
Why are old people playing on this game i dont know its probly something to do with control but its kind of werd. Get a life or a girl friend or mabe even a wife but if your an adult that plays this game your a loser
[Mar 2, 2003 3:45:46 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
shellyanne



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Yeah this really is a problem.
You have a "crew" who has been together a long time, bought ships together.
And this "crew" tends to pass the captain hat around alot.
All is fine and good till one day a new captain totally changes the way this crew is run.
If I were in this crew, I wouldn't be much interested in playing since the share system was so unfair now.
Something like this would make me pretty mad and that would color the whole way I see the game.
Why would I want to contribute to the crew when my trust in the leadership is gone?
My feelings would be if something so basic as the shares were changed like this, what other things will change now?

There does need to be a way to do something about runaway leadership.
I like how in UO you can swear fealty to your captain, and if enough people want a new one they can all swear fealty to a new guy.
and maybe somehow make it so it's active members that count in the vote.
[Aug 9, 2005 4:00:00 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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I think it's more complicated than I originally set out (and it's since been fixed in my hypothetical case anyway, thanks).

First, of course, it's how "real" mutinies happen anyway . . . somebody takes charge, and enough people either don't care or like the change (or are scared to leave, which isn't the case in YPP), and go along with it.

Second, I was originally thinking that there should be something which allowed crews to "retake" their group; I realized it's called "forming a new crew." Anything else (some sort of referendum, an "eject" button, whatever) is contrary to the idea of an autocratic crew.

I'll make my case again, though, for more customizability in crew governments. I would very much like to see the captain's power separated from how he/she is chosen. That is to say, I would like to be able to formally elect a captain with absolute power; the only way to do that currently, short of sending out 75 personal messages, is with a poll in forum. Such a thing should be in the game. I do believe that crews should be able to set which things are voted and which can be decided by those in power. Even just a slider with three settings (democratic, oligarrrrrchic, autocratic) for different types of issues would be nice. These issues would currently be changing crew shares, expelling crew members, assignment of rank, assignment of title, and changing these very settings.

And for the record, I wouldn't leave the game if my crew went in a direction I didn't like . . . I would just leave the crew and do something else. It's bound to happen somewhere, sometime, to many of us. For all I know, it's already happened much less hypothetically. Of course, once flags are in, where crews can be allied under a common cause, I will have to consider forming a merchant-y crew anyway (Mercantile Mutineers?) . . .
[Mar 2, 2003 10:53:11 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
Nemo
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Mutiny and other ugly subjects of piracy Reply to this Post
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First, let me say that I'm glad you all found a way to solve your *hypothetical* problem without us. This is what player-run gaming is all about. That being said, we won't just let it all go. As you all have said: in game tools to do what you managed to do out of game would help greatly in future situations (or even prevent many such situations).
I am much in favor of allowing crews to set their articles more specifically. We certainly don't want to overencumber our relatively simple game with a multitude of choices, but Homullus's plan of dividing authority on specific issues (say, allowing some issues to be autocratic and others still be democratic) is a nice balance.
Currently, the way captains are "created" is very simple. Either you start a new crew, or someone hands the hat over to someone else. Obviously, a more robust (in game) system for crew restructuring is becoming necessary. Even mutiny (whether diplomatic or violent) could be addressed.
All of this ties into the other large debate about crew voting (and its current pointlessness). Both of these issues are interconnected and both need attention. That attention will come in the future. We are very aware of the issues and already have some ideas on the table about their solution (first of these being the ability of crews to set their quorum and to vote in captains).
It's likely that such new tools would be addressed during the structuring of similar aspects of the game. Meaning, don't expect anything much in this way before the Flag politics release. Right now economy's the pressing business, and I'm sure you're anxious for it.

-Nemo
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-Avatar by AlexisAngel-
[Mar 3, 2003 2:21:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Penndalla

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Re: What would you do? Reply to this Post
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So... Who was the bad apple, Hom?
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Pennsuedo

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[Mar 10, 2005 1:58:25 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all [Link]  Go to top 
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Penndalla wrote: 
So... Who was the bad apple, Hom?


Jerk.
[Mar 10, 2005 2:14:42 AM] Show Printable Version of Post   [Link]  Go to top 
Christoban

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Re: What would you do? Reply to this Post
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?


A democratic or oligarchic crew that periodically elected an autocratic captain would be a very nice thing to have in this game. It avoids all the time constraint problems (3 day vote delay) inherrent to voting crews, while still allowing a crew some level of input to how they're run.

It *could* all be handled on a discussion board, though, provided no captain ever hijacked the crew.
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game design wrote: 
..let's see, we have thing A and thing B, with thing B currently not implemented yet. Thing A leads to people stabbing themselves in the eye, as does thing B... but since A already exists..

[Mar 10, 2005 2:33:42 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Penndalla wrote: 
So... Who was the bad apple, Hom?


Heh. Ancient history indeed. Does it matter? The player has long since moved on to other amusements, as far as I know.
[Mar 10, 2005 2:36:46 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
Indeed

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Re: What would you do? Reply to this Post
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homullus wrote: 
Penndalla wrote: 
So... Who was the bad apple, Hom?


Heh. Ancient history indeed. Does it matter? The player has long since moved on to other amusements, as far as I know.


lies! i never did any such thing!
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Dmentia says, "It thrills me when Indeed is mean."
SomeIdiot tells you, "I am muting you, because you're unnormal, maybe you're hurt in real life"
Quoth Rubby, "There's something wrong with your brain."

[Mar 10, 2005 2:58:51 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.goonbunnies.com/ [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Indeed wrote: 
homullus wrote: 
Penndalla wrote: 
So... Who was the bad apple, Hom?


Heh. Ancient history indeed. Does it matter? The player has long since moved on to other amusements, as far as I know.


lies! i never did any such thing!


The joke only works for people, who don't know how to punctuate.
[Mar 10, 2005 3:03:04 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
BenjeminR

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A problem with democratically picking an autrocratic captain comes in the form of alts and multiple accounts.

For example

Crew A has 10 member
A new officers decieded he deserves to be captain
New officer moves all alts and maybe even another account worth into the crew
New officer uses a his/her votes to become captain

This system also allows for people to move in on crews, get captain and then disband the crew. I see it causeing for more problems than it would solve.

I know in every system there are points that can be exploited, but i don't see that being able to 'mutany' would do any good. If it is allowed, the captain and founder of a crew is being forced out of something they have worked hard to create. If crewmember are so unhappy with a crew they should just leave, not take over.

As for homs situation, i don't see why ringer involvement would be warrented. The captain hat was given to the hypothetical person, it sucks that it was abused, but ultimately the power was handed to someone who used it differently than expected.


*will come fix this post up when i am not dopped up on whatever this stuff my doc prescribed me.
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Legacee
[Mar 10, 2005 3:22:17 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

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Bearing in mind that post was also made in March of 2003 Before quite a few tools which are now in place were implemented, and before the concrete game rules were set to the extent that they are now.
[Mar 10, 2005 3:23:57 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Re: What would you do? Reply to this Post
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BenjeminR wrote: 
A problem with democratically picking an autrocratic captain comes in the form of alts and multiple accounts.

For example

Crew A has 10 member
A new officers decieded he deserves to be captain
New officer moves all alts and maybe even another account worth into the crew
New officer uses a his/her votes to become captain

This system also allows for people to move in on crews, get captain and then disband the crew. I see it causeing for more problems than it would solve.

I know in every system there are points that can be exploited, but i don't see that being able to 'mutany' would do any good. If it is allowed, the captain and founder of a crew is being forced out of something they have worked hard to create. If crewmember are so unhappy with a crew they should just leave, not take over.

As for homs situation, i don't see why ringer involvement would be warrented. The captain hat was given to the hypothetical person, it sucks that it was abused, but ultimately the power was handed to someone who used it differently than expected.


*will come fix this post up when i am not dopped up on whatever this stuff my doc prescribed me.


I don't think those are major objections to the proposed solution to the problem I had two years ago. Either system can be exploited, and a crew opens itself up to the advantages and disadvantages of any system they choose . . . the suggestion was that it be allowed, not required. The larger the crew, the more your concern fades into the background.
[Mar 10, 2005 3:30:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
Penndalla

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I once proposed a big complicated dealie for crew permissions, and Cleaver insisted flags would make it pointless. But flags haven't done much at all for group organization.

What happened to SO and titled channels? And more titles on the flag level?

Also, why oh why is royalty, broadcasting, and voting all still tied together? =(
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Pennsuedo

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[Mar 10, 2005 3:41:26 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all [Link]  Go to top 
binka

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An SO channel would make our crew very happy, and it is #1 on my wish list, even before a crew bank account.

Right now we are using Royalty to implement SO chat, which means of course, that a whole lot of unnecessary voting is slowing us down, and we can't grow our flag in the usual way.

Even though our tactic is a political problem, I suppose the request belongs in Game Design.
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- Jaybell/Medea/Median
[Mar 10, 2005 9:26:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Feegle

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This is not what's currently being discussed here, but it's related, so I'll post it anyway. I still think it would be nice to have an option somewhere between Democratic and Oligarchic where all the Officers and up in a crew get a vote on crew issues, instead of just the SOs and up.
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- Feegs

Senior Officer of the Ransack Marauders, Midnight Ocean
Disciple of Artemis
[Mar 11, 2005 2:18:05 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://feegle.mathninja.com    jeffmahood    FeeglePoet [Link]  Go to top 
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