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homullus

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I hate camping . . . Reply to this Post
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. . . by any definition of the word.

I just had a half-baked idea: what if markets not controlled by players randomly seeded their goods in any and all game markets, simulating trade by NPPs, without actually putting the stuff on NPP ships (and thereby further increasing people's brigand addiction)? No more resource camping on particular uninhabited islands. Campers would have to sail from island to island in search of their goods, collecting it for their trips back to civilization, and some would still randomly show up in civilized markets. Hoarders could still hoard (which is their right . . . a stable economy is not the same as a static economy), but they'd have to work for it. I think it would make sense for the "home island" of the resource to get some small percentage of the goods, but certainly less than half.

Player-run islands would work normally, in that they would still have their particular specialties.
[Sep 3, 2003 11:27:12 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
Lizzie

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I hate camping too.. maybe your idea would work, although it sounds a bit overly complicated.. of course that could be the 2.30am part of me talking.
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Ravine
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[Sep 3, 2003 11:32:07 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Definitely more complicated for PLAYERS, but the goods would, instead of spawning in their own market, spawn 75% of the time in some other random market. Any market at all. It would discourage (but not eliminate!) camping and speculation, because there would no longer be one-stop shopping for such things.
[Sep 3, 2003 11:37:11 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
Dorel

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I don't think that's a good idea Hom because it would make gathering commodities more of a pain than it's worth. If something like that happened, a lot of people would simply stop trading and just go out to enforce their pillaging "addiction. And if ye throw npp's into the mix (for shipping purposes), the economy would no longer be completely player driven.
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meiadm



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your idea has merit, however - it will spawn a massive ship addiction, as it will cause most larger crews to have ships in all harbors having a market, and go on trips around... a kind of multi-camping... but it's very close to an actual solution.

nice thinkin' hom - keep up the good work ;)
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Frizzan - Gone for good
[Sep 3, 2003 11:41:33 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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But all PP islands would still produce as they do now: predictably, allowing for trading routes and such and gathering of commodities in the usual way. And the idea IS to get people out there pillaging each other, not NPPs. In my idea, they aren't actually doing any shipping . . . it just looks like it. Players will check for availability on MULTIPLE uninhabited islands on one trip, and when they see each other, they will be more likely to attack, since they will be likely to have valuable goods.

If anything, I think it will make gathering commodities easier, because you'll get them by pillaging and visiting markets, not by camping them.
[Sep 3, 2003 11:45:25 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
meiadm



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I actually dislike pp ships attacking me when I move goods.

This idea is making me feel worse every minute :(
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Frizzan - Gone for good
[Sep 3, 2003 11:49:28 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lizzie

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meiadm wrote: 
I actually dislike pp ships attacking me when I move goods.

This idea is making me feel worse every minute :(


Of course you dislike em attacking you when you've got stuff. But do you like fighting reals? And do you like taking valuable stuff off your opponents? I know I like both of those, so really its mostly a winning situation.
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Ravine
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[Sep 3, 2003 11:58:08 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
meiadm



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aye.. 'tis only a threshold to get past fer me... just forget I mentioned it ;)
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Frizzan - Gone for good
[Sep 4, 2003 12:00:01 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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I'm afraid to say that PP ships attacking you is part of the game. I've ranted elsewhere about the notion that trading assumed to be uninterrupted, and many people price goods such that any losses on the way result in a loss for the trader . . . which I also think is wrong.

I think people have to become more comfortable with the idea of being attacked -- just as I think people need to have a way/place to do the puzzles with no profit and no risk -- and I think one way for the former to happen would be if any given attack would not affect the profit of the trip so dramatically. The latter is already happening in training routes around islands.
[Sep 4, 2003 12:02:10 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
Aur

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Maybe they could fix camping the same way they fixed so many other tedious and annoying gameplay features of traditional mmogs, Creat a puzzle for it. Create a puzzle to forage or run a market or something.

Having a puzzle in markets might not be that farfetched since they will have employees. Have various puzzles and or difficulty levels for the various commodities out there. Obviously only certain puzzles would be available on certain islands, but the amount of materials created would be related to the skill of the workers. Make some commodities that should be rare have ungodly hard puzzles associated with them.

Same goes for foraging. You can only play certain puzzles on certain islands and the puzzles for the different commodities would be hard based on how rare the devs think they should be.

This would make it so that skill rather than time spent waiting at some island would determine who gets the goods. A premise of the game has always been that skill rather than time or luck would determine fate.

So far puzzles have fixed so many of the things that we've hated about other mmogs, camping seems like another logical hurdle that puzzles could clear.
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~Aur
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"So now you know, and knowing is half the battle. The other half is HWFO." -Hermes
[Sep 4, 2003 12:16:29 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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I really really really like puzzling for foraging (I think I've seen the idea suggested before), but given that we don't even have crafting puzzles in yet, I was thinking of the random seeding as a short-term fix.
[Sep 4, 2003 12:22:28 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
meiadm



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now this time I agree with ye hom, foraging puzzles, that will get ye the more rare things, if yer good at it, has been suggested before. I too am a big fan of this idea.
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Frizzan - Gone for good
[Sep 4, 2003 12:25:16 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sugarpie



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*envisions the chocobo mini game out of FFIX for foraging*

kupo!
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[Sep 4, 2003 12:25:57 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
meiadm



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oh boy... chocobos... that would really put square in mind of suing someone...
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Frizzan - Gone for good
[Sep 4, 2003 12:26:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Aur

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I wonder what the ETA or at least priority is for getting crafting puzzles in the game. Same with foraging. Reason being is would it be better to put in a short term fix rather than just wait or maybe would it be better to put in a temporary puzzle in place rather than a different short term fix. The temp puzzle could cause more harm than good because if it was too easy or too hard it could wreck the economy. Yet, I can't see going live without these types of puzzles because if they ever did get implemented halfway through it could really turn the economy on its ear and ruin a couple of speculators or something.

I think we'll just have to wait and see on this one because we don't know the priorities. I am still wondering what the big change to the economy is going to be. The one that they've been threatening for weeks now. It might be a combination of all this stuff.
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~Aur
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"So now you know, and knowing is half the battle. The other half is HWFO." -Hermes
[Sep 4, 2003 12:59:11 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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I have no problem with people speculating, but I also have no problem with the game ruining a few speculators. That's why they call it speculation . . . it's speculative.
[Sep 4, 2003 1:05:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
burrito



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Aur wrote: 
Maybe they could fix camping the same way they fixed so many other tedious and annoying gameplay features of traditional mmogs, Creat a puzzle for it. Create a puzzle to forage or run a market or something.



I might be the only person in PP that doesn't like the idea of this. :/

I think hom's idea is better than the foraging puzzle as it requires actual work. I think that if you spread out the commodities onto different islands, it'll force shop owners to be more flag/crew oriented and therefore be better for the economy. Besides, that's how an economy works in the first place. Commodities markets always buy goods that they don't plan on using in order to sell them abroad.

And it also leaves room to cut off direct automatic trading between shoppes and ships. Instead, it's now filtered through the marketplace--the marketplaces (and the people who run them) set the buy prices and the shoppes buy according to their sell prices. It gives the owners of the marketplaces the real control over who sets prices, instead of having every single person in PP set their own prices. Oh, and the marketplaces would have to be owned by non-ringers. ;D
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-Peppy, Senior Officer of the Salty Mouthfuls
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[Sep 4, 2003 1:36:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    burrito+OMG [Link]  Go to top 
Tekanji



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I'm not sure that your suggestion will really fix things. And, I have to say, for those of us who aren't really interested in pillaging (I see it as a necessary way to make money for me right now, not something that will keep me interested in the game), I think it would take some of the fun out of resource hunting.

Now, I'd like to say that I hate, despise and loathe camping. Spawn camping is, as one of my crew mates put it, "the devil". But right not it's basically a necessary part of the game, and that really bites, especially for those crews, like mine, which rely heavily on trade.

You think my mates enjoy sitting at an island, waiting 5 minutes and 23 seconds (exactly, since resources seem to spawn on a fixed time) for the next elderberry to go up for purchase? Frankly, it's boring, inane.... and the only way to get enough elderberries to supply our shoppe.

Ultimately, I think a foraging puzzle would go a long way to help alleviate the problem. However, we all know that the implementation of said puzzle will not see the light of day for quite some time. The List is mighty and, in this case, that's not a good thing.

A few things I'd like to see in the short term are:

1) Some sort of implementation of this foraging suggestion:
http://www.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=1855

2) Fluctuating Market Prices I believe that there should be a base price for when the island has maximum of a resource. As that resource gets more scarce, the price gets multiplied, so that if there's only 25% of resources in capacity, the price is at least 25% higher than the base price. Or something along those lines.

3) Randomized spawn times. Honestly, I think if my mate can successfully get 3 elderberries in 20 minutes (with another spawn camper on the island, mind) using her 5 minute and 23 second method, there's something broken about the system. Randomizing the spawn times would, I think, go a little bit to discourage campers, because they would have to sit there paying attention 100% of the time in order to get their resource. Not a perfect solution by far, but not a bad one to think about, either.

Just a thought. Feel free to disagree, suggest changes, or whatever to my suggestions.


-Tekanji
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"I mean, its a game about pirates, and we all look like legos..." - PsychoMantis in this thread.
[Sep 4, 2003 1:48:41 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
burrito



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Tekanji wrote: 

2) Fluctuating Market Prices I believe that there should be a base price for when the island has maximum of a resource. As that resource gets more scarce, the price gets multiplied, so that if there's only 25% of resources in capacity, the price is at least 25% higher than the base price. Or something along those lines.



That would be absolutely terrible if that were to be implemented. That seriously takes almost the entire control of the economy out of the hands of the players. I no like it.
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-Peppy, Senior Officer of the Salty Mouthfuls
"Yarr, thar be stairs here."

1st Place, First Drinking Contest, Gaea 24 Hour Bash
2nd Place, Cayte's Sword Tournament, 9/29
[Sep 4, 2003 1:52:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    burrito+OMG [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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burrito wrote: 
Aur wrote: 
Maybe they could fix camping the same way they fixed so many other tedious and annoying gameplay features of traditional mmogs, Creat a puzzle for it. Create a puzzle to forage or run a market or something.



I might be the only person in PP that doesn't like the idea of this. :/


You're not alone. I can see the appeal in certain ways, but I think this is counter to how I perceive the game. Ye don't actually have to work at the ironmonger for an hour for them to get an hour of yer labor. Maybe I'm making the wrong analogy here, but it just doesn't feel right.

Me crew has discussed this quite a bit during our bouts of camping (which is a lot more fun when ye have a bunch of crew doin' it with ye, actually - gives ye a chance to chat, practice yer whiskin' skills, and train yer crew in trading - plus, they like the big profits at the end).

In hindsight, I think it would have been better to have left trading of everything but wood, iron, sugar, and hemp (and maybe stone) until much later. The economics of trading and competition could have been worked out with these resources. Many of the other resources are hard to get, or even impossible to get, while others are available in abundance and useless. This just makes it hard for people.

Once basic trading was in, then do the crafting puzzles. This gives people something to do on land, and makes shoppekeeping more interesting, as ye have to balance out yer labour. It also makes having a job more interesting, and not just a source of free poe.

During this time, the herbs and minerals could simply appear in appropriate quantities at the relevant shoppes (similar to the idea earlier in this thread of appearing at markets, but different because there would be no trading involved). Dye herbs show up at the apothecaries, cloth minerals show up at the weaveries, sword minerals show up at the ironmongers, etc. The rates of production ideally would be adjustable, or possibly keyed to something like the average number of players online each day (for example, for every 100 players, average, online today, 20 units of dye herb appear at the apothecaries every hour). Individual resources can be more or less scarce. This would obviously still allow trading - some resources might be produced in greater quantity on one island than the demand there for there (for example, I believe the Rudder Lubbers use purple as a crew color, so maybe they're underutilizing their weld/yellow dye/yellow cloth and are happy to export it to the island of the Yellow Jackets).

Eventually, it will be clear what reasonable proportions of resources are for a given number of players. Meanwhile, more puzzles are made available to the general population. Me crew doesn't really camp because we need the money, we mostly do it because it's a change in the routine.
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Bocheezu



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I'm in favor of some kind of auto-camping. When getting a spawn requires you to highlight another commodity and put a number in the buy box ahead of time (because the half second it takes to put a number in the box after the commodity has spawned is a half second too long and you won't get anything), the camping system is a little out of control.

I remember reading that the devs wanted to have a buy price ship-side, so that the ship with the highest price got the spawn automatically. That seems to benefit the rich crews, though. Another idea is to auto-split the spawn between all the boats that are camping it. But it's kinda hard to split 2 elderberries between 10 boats.

I think the best solution is to have a puzzle to do it, but I won't hold my breath.
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Moonripple



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I'm not sure this post applies to the topic, but I personally love the idea of anything that leads to more fighting between PP ships. With the ability to see a history of PPvsPP battles, and the promise of multi-ship battles and flag wars in the future, I think there is a real potential for a more interesting game.

A couple scenerios spring to mind:

1. Small skermishes between crews escalating, through flag alliances and backroom deals, into large flag conflicts.

2. A crew making deals to provide escorts to another crew that is moving large amounts of goods or cash.

I'm sure there are other ramifications to increasing PP battles. We're supposed to pirates, and the seas are supposed to be treacherous. Nothing is more treacherous than the threat of real pirates stealing your ill-gotten gains.
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muffy



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Moonripple wrote: 
I'm not sure this post applies to the topic, but I personally love the idea of anything that leads to more fighting between PP ships. With the ability to see a history of PPvsPP battles, and the promise of multi-ship battles and flag wars in the future, I think there is a real potential for a more interesting game.


Heh. It isn't relevant, but I can make it relevant. Another solution to camping would be to make ALL non-staple (iron, wood, sugar, hemp, stone being the staples) resources the results of PvP battles. The winner automatically gets a "spawn" of some resource. This also makes the retaliatory strike more attractive, as ye KNOW that they have something valuable on board now, even if they only won 0 poe and a couple units of rum and shot from ye. If ye beat 'em back, ye get yer own spawn, plus a third of theirs.

Edit: And, of course, do not produce these resources in any market.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by muffy at Sep 4, 2003 2:42:13 AM]
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Tekanji



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burrito wrote: 
Tekanji wrote: 

2) Fluctuating Market Prices I believe that there should be a base price for when the island has maximum of a resource. As that resource gets more scarce, the price gets multiplied, so that if there's only 25% of resources in capacity, the price is at least 25% higher than the base price. Or something along those lines.



That would be absolutely terrible if that were to be implemented. That seriously takes almost the entire control of the economy out of the hands of the players. I no like it.


Howso? The owner of the market would set the base price as well as the multiplier. Ultimately, the market owner would have a lot of control over how they wanted to handle scarcity.

They could chose to set a high base price and low multiplier, which I believe would encourage more steady rate for selling the product (good for those items which one can find in relative abundance, I'd think), a low base price and a high multiplier (good for scarce items, which would discourage campers, since it's more profitable to wait until there's more of the resource available), or any other sort of combination.

If you bring in multiple islands with different resource ratios (like, elderberries being scarce in one archipelago, but less scarce in one that's farther away and would take much more rum to get to), I'd think it would produce a dynamic market which would include players to a large extent.

So what, exactly (in detail), makes you think that my suggestion would take power away from the players? I think that, at least at the core (maybe there's a flaw in my suggested implementation, which you're welcome to analyze as well), my suggestion would create an enviroment which discourages campers, while giving more power to both buyers and sellers.

-Tekanji
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"I mean, its a game about pirates, and we all look like legos..." - PsychoMantis in this thread.
[Sep 4, 2003 2:44:10 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
burrito



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Dude, you didn't mention that it would be regulated by the marketplace. You just said that there would be a multiplier and it sounded as if it would be built into the game. You made it sound as if there would be set prices on everything according to however the developers saw fit, instead of how the players saw it.

Of course, the developers would have to cough up the deeds to the markets.
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-Peppy, Senior Officer of the Salty Mouthfuls
"Yarr, thar be stairs here."

1st Place, First Drinking Contest, Gaea 24 Hour Bash
2nd Place, Cayte's Sword Tournament, 9/29
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