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Lothy



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The ever increasing number of ships at sea Reply to this Post
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Hey all,

Was just thinking, and didn't see a post dedicated to this topic, so here goes.

Has any thought been put into the fact that the number of ships purchased just keeps getting bigger and bigger, but there's currently no mechanism to lose a ship? Is it going to be possible for ships to "decay" beyond use, or be damaged enough to sink? How about these potential ideas:

a) To filter out ships belonging to crews that have long since stopped playing, how about a rule that says if a ship isn't boarded or taken out at least once every 90 days or so, it's deleted (or seized by the Navy if you need a piraty reasoning behind it).

b) To put more of an emphasis on the bilging puzzle, why not make a ship sink if the bilge COMPLETELY fills with water? Now in my time playing so far, I've NEVER seen a bilge totally filled. I've seen it about 2/3 filled but that's the most. This would be a difficult thing to do.

The second thing would be a neat danger to add to the game, especially when dangerous sea monsters are implemented. It would make ship damage a lot more frightful than just getting black blocks in the swordfights, and would make being a good bilger a LOT more important in a tight situation. It would also make cannon fighting more important to crews that are bitter rivals or enemies. BUT, a sunk ship provides no pillage, so that would give the other ship a moment of pause before blowing them full of holes.

The only real problem I see with it is the sabotage factor... there needs to be a mechanism to stop someone from just getting on a ship, booching carpentry over and over to cause damage, and allowing the bilge to fill. But I guess the first line of defense would be not to invite that person to be a full member of the crew and then promote them to Officer. And any proof of purposeful sabotage would be an instant banning offense, cause it's just plain mean.

Just brainstorming new potential ideas. Let me know your thoughts.

Lothy
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Sailing under the Flag Plundered Hearts
[Sep 3, 2003 5:01:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
atteSmythe

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Re: The ever increasing number of ships at sea Reply to this Post
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I think that sinking ships is on The List for flag warfare. As I understand it, that would be the only way of permanently losing a ship.

As for allowing damage/bilge to get full and sink a ship, I'm wholeheartedly against it. I've had the displeasure of being aboard a ship with both meters full. Our merchant brig was in far-off lands, and before we could get back to port the vast majority of our crew was suddenly called away for real-world crises.

I would've hated to lose that ship not through battle, not through warfare or pillaging, but only because most of me crew couldn't be bothered at the time to sail it back to shore.

It's also common after a run-in with the Black Ship, and I'd hate to see a new captain lose his only sloop because he didn't know you don't click on Teals, or was lagged out when he hit the engage button, and the target changed colors.

Just my 2 PoE,
atteSmythe
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Feltope



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Re: The ever increasing number of ships at sea Reply to this Post
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Lothy wrote: 

a) To filter out ships belonging to crews that have long since stopped playing, how about a rule that says if a ship isn't boarded or taken out at least once every 90 days or so, it's deleted (or seized by the Navy if you need a piraty reasoning behind it).

I am very much against losing large items in games, (such as ships)
1 encounter with the black ship would = no ship.

Lothy wrote: 

b) To put more of an emphasis on the bilging puzzle, why not make a ship sink if the bilge COMPLETELY fills with water? Now in my time playing so far, I've NEVER seen a bilge totally filled. I've seen it about 2/3 filled but that's the most. This would be a difficult thing to do.


this can happen pretty easy with the bigger ships (god forbid you run out of rum on a merchant gal)
and again the black ship will rock your world.

most of this stuff has been adressed before, there will be sinking.
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burrito



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Re: The ever increasing number of ships at sea Reply to this Post
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Yeah, I've been on newbie crew ships with the meters both full and I don't think they should lose the ship because they don't know how to navigate in a sea battle. They should be allowed to learn what it is they're doing.

Of course, if the ships could sink in that way, it would probably encourage people to dedicate themselves to an existing crew before branching out on their own.

And there have been many times when I lost a sea battle and wanted to catch up with the victors and sink their stupid, stupid ship. Edit: and laugh at them. I'm totally for the sinking of ships.
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[Sep 3, 2003 5:11:58 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    burrito+OMG [Link]  Go to top 
Rengor



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Re: The ever increasing number of ships at sea Reply to this Post
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Lothy wrote: 
a) To filter out ships belonging to crews that have long since stopped playing, how about a rule that says if a ship isn't boarded or taken out at least once every 90 days or so, it's deleted (or seized by the Navy if you need a piraty reasoning behind it).

b) To put more of an emphasis on the bilging puzzle, why not make a ship sink if the bilge COMPLETELY fills with water? Now in my time playing so far, I've NEVER seen a bilge totally filled. I've seen it about 2/3 filled but that's the most. This would be a difficult thing to do.

Ahoy Lothy

a) If people stop paying for their account it will cease to exist (not sure after how long) so the ship will no longer be available to the crew. Keeping ships alive is a bad idea for large crews that might use 95% of the ships most days, but only take out the grand frigate for events and such.

b) Nay. I've seen plenty of ships with full bilge for various reasons. Run out of rum in the wrong place because your crew mates have to run and it starts building fast. Far from difficult. Plus like said there's War Fare coming where sinking ships is a possibility.
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Sugarpie



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Re: The ever increasing number of ships at sea Reply to this Post
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Or... let me nav, then in sea battle I don't realize which ship I'm actually piloting and I manage to run our ship into a rock no less than 12 times causing massive amounts of damage and a full bilge...

That was what happened my first time on the nav puzzle... I'd hate to risk losing my ship to someone who wanted to try the puzzle out like that :)

Course, I'd have to HAVE a ship first... but its on my shopping list... falchion first :)
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Moonripple



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I was in a situation just tonight where I inherited a ship because the captain had a RL emergency to deal with. The ship had neither rum nor shot, and it wasn't long before the bilge had built up. I would have hated to lose someone's boat in such a situation.
[Sep 3, 2003 12:51:04 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tazelbain



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Re: The ever increasing number of ships at sea Reply to this Post
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Let's start with the basics: Why is having lots of people owning ships undesirable?

Won't the number of jobbers and the number of targets for pillage number naturely create an upper limit. I don't see a problem if everyone who wanted a ship got one.

The only people who I see would have a problem this would be evil captains who want to force jobbers to take their 1 to 5 job.

If the goal is to encourage large crews, i bet there are better ways to do beside sink ships.
[Sep 3, 2003 1:13:05 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cedric

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Re: The ever increasing number of ships at sea Reply to this Post
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tazelbain wrote: 
Let's start with the basics: Why is having lots of people owning ships undesirable?


Lets see.

1) Uses more wood drives price of other wood based products up, keeps shipyardsin a constant backlog.

2) Causes more captains to start crews when they have no business doing so; They have a poor experience in the game and likely quit after a week, anyone who crews or jobs with them have an equally poor time.

3) clutters the ports and sea lanes, subjects crews on business (namely trying to catch brigands) have to wade through 3 or 4 needless PVP battles by captains who have no idea who or target (or more importantly, not target)

4) Makes it impossible to job, because instead of jobbing, they're all captaining their ship

I had to resist the call to buy my own ship as a newbie. Itsthe best decision I ever made. Its much much better to spend time learning with real, established crews. No offense to all the independent captains out there intended, but its true.
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Lizzie

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Re: The ever increasing number of ships at sea Reply to this Post
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tazelbain wrote: 
Let's start with the basics: Why is having lots of people owning ships undesirable?

Won't the number of jobbers and the number of targets for pillage number naturely create an upper limit. I don't see a problem if everyone who wanted a ship got one.

The only people who I see would have a problem this would be evil captains who want to force jobbers to take their 1 to 5 job.

If the goal is to encourage large crews, i bet there are better ways to do beside sink ships.


My problem is, there are no jobbers anymore because anytime anyone reaches narrow they go buy their own ship, and they look for jobbers, and it ends up me and my swabbies, and I make no poe. That sucks.
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Soma



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VERY true. Reply to this Post
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I cannot emphasize how important it really is, within 2 weeks of training and babysitting I was on my way to being a true terror in sea battle.. without this, I am quite sure I would've looked like the majority of 'new' captains do when they come to face me; which, I must say, isn't too hot at all (and that's generally being put nicely).
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[Sep 3, 2003 9:17:10 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lothy



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Thanks to all who have posted. In light of what was said I'll revise my ideas slightly...

I wasn't aware of the situations cited above that could cause a full bilge. In that case I agree, that would be a bad trigger to sink a ship on. Is it just as easy to get full damage AND bilge? Perhaps that would make a better sinking trigger?

Here's a potentially ignorant question. Can you post a request for jobbers (even NPP swabbies) while at sea? Or do you have to do so while in a dock? I ask because I've never actually TRIED recruiting while out there. I've never had to, but if my crew had to leave for RL stuff, that'd be the first thing to come to mind. I'd try to recruit anyone just to man the carpentry and bilge stations until we got back to port.

I can understand where people are coming from not wanting to lose a ship accidentally. I certainly wouldn't want to either. However, I'm not as inclined to agree that new people trashing ships would be a bad thing. It's not right to throw someone out on a ship as soon as they become an Officer in a crew without trying to either a) guide them along in the Sea Battle/Navigation, or b) let a new person navigate when you've got a full crew aboard to cover Carpentry and Bilging in case they screw up.

Also, people who rush right to Narrow and buy their own ship without really knowing how to pilot it are almost ASKING for trouble with their impatience. I think the game is designed to unlock things gradually for you (or at least that's the sense I got learning the game). A new person should try being ON a crew for a while first, get the hang of things, THEN if he/she wants go out on their own with a new ship.

The reason people rush right out now and buy ships is because they CAN, and there's no repercussions for being a poor cap'n. If you had the potential of losing a very expensive ship because you didn't know how to drive it, I bet it would make ships more of a precious thing, not to be bought/driven rashly.

Again, I'm not complaining about the current situation, I'm just brainstorming ways to potentially improve.

Thanks again for the discussion,
Lothy
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Lothy[size=9], Senior Officer of the Free Radicals
Sailing under the Flag Plundered Hearts
[Sep 3, 2003 11:37:02 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lizzie

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The only time you can't hire jobbers is during a sea battle. If you don't click off your "hire jobbers" button before you leave the dock, it'll keep advertising. :)
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svarog



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I'll chime in to say i do like the idea of ship degredation, since there doesn't seem to be much a greement with it. Losing a ship to bilge seems to easy though.

I seem to remember a discussion of crews having a ship in every port or so for easy transportation, and that they wouldn't move except to deport and report for quick crew member transport to an island. The idea that you have to do some mainetenance on your boats seems to make sense too.

Maybe have a dock fee (nominal, a coin a day?) that if not payed in xty days the boat will be siezed or docking tickets for leaving it there for so many days that go to the gov of the island. Or incorporate a puzzle, like barnacle scraping so that every day there's a buildup of barnacles, which affects performance like bilge or carpentry, but can only be cleared while docked. And if the barnacle puzzle ever hits an upper limit for more than a few days (or weeks) the ship sinks, or needs serious repair (another job for the ship shops). The puzzle wouldn't need to be hard, just there.

Adding a little more 'work' to owning a ship might make people think twice befor buying them and add a new element of management ot large crews.

And the goal isn't to get less ships, but to get less clutter of useless ships or to add another element to gameplay.

Same thing could probably be done with sword sharpening or something to that effect if there was a decent way to degrade drop patterns.
[Sep 4, 2003 12:04:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
joedigriz

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Re: The ever increasing number of ships at sea Reply to this Post
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Note, though, that the jobbers button will automatically disable once your boat is full. So if someone leaves after that, you have to press it again to restart the hiring process.


Lothy wrote: 
Is it just as easy to get full damage AND bilge? Perhaps that would make a better sinking trigger?


From what I understand, it is *really* easy to accumulate even sailing damage on the larger ships. And much harder to fix them. And, of course, it then becomes fairly easy to have the bilge fill up. This is especially true if you don't have a nearly-full crew onboard. Plus, one encounter with the Black Ship will do any ship some major harm. I think the "full bilge, full damage" metric just isn't going to work.
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homullus

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Re: The ever increasing number of ships at sea Reply to this Post
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Or incorporate a puzzle, like barnacle scraping so that every day there's a buildup of barnacles, which affects performance like bilge or carpentry, but can only be cleared while docked. And if the barnacle puzzle ever hits an upper limit for more than a few days (or weeks) the ship sinks, or needs serious repair (another job for the ship shops). The puzzle wouldn't need to be hard, just there.


This would have to be quite far down The List, since it's all new-featurey, but I think it's a good enough idea (except the barnacles leading to the ship sinking). It doesn't have to be hard, but it should be a fun puzzle. Then you can either clean up your own ship (and be able to do carpentry in port!) or pay somebody to do it.
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stevoid



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I like the barnacle idea - especially if it can be done in port, so as to be possible for people who have a grand frigate for special occasions to maintain it; because I think it would make people think twice about buying a load of ships that they don't actually use; there would be no point in having 12 small sloops for 6 officers if it takes extra labour de-barnacling each every few days.

If it could be combined with Gotagota's ship-mending idea so that you could commission the shipyard to maintain it barnacle-free, that would be even better; so that the ship costs EITHER money OR time to maintain. Then the shipyards would get income without having to sell a load more ships.
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Lothy



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Well, I've never had the displeasure of having to fight the black ship, but from what I've heard it's pretty ridiculous. However, isn't it your own darn fault if you get it? It doesn't attack you arbitrarily. You have to pick on lesser ships to make it show up. Perhaps if they relaxed it a bit so you couldn't get it on the first "offense" to prevent an accidental targeting of a teal ship causing you to get blown to bits...

I don't know, I think the fact that larger ships gain damage faster is due to the fact that they expect you to have multiple carpenters. Thus, if you only have one person carpenting, and not enough people to spare to HELP carpent, perhaps the gigantic boat shouldn't have been taken out just then. This would force crews to have a decent actively participating number of pirates to be able to adequately man a larger ship.

This sort of thing would make the larger ships more of an impressive commodity to be able to buy and maintain, but also something a crew will want to take care of and protect.

Maybe if you did it in a two step process. Perhaps, if a ship is given full damage and bilge, it would be "disabled" and would have to be taken to the nearest island. From there, it'd be unable to set sail again until some sort of special "repair" puzzle or carpentry was done to fix everything up. If the ship was left too long with full damage and bilge, THEN it would sink, but you'd at least be given the opputunity to salvage yourself before instantly sinking.

How about that?

Lothy

{{EDIT}} Oh, and I like the idea of the barnacle thing, or some means of having to maintain a ship in port. That's a lot better than the timeout thing I suggested higher in the thread, and would add another possibility of a new puzzle.
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Lothy[size=9], Senior Officer of the Free Radicals
Sailing under the Flag Plundered Hearts
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Lothy at Sep 4, 2003 1:36:18 AM]
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Nothing



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Hello.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Nothing at Sep 4, 2003 1:37:07 AM]
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Lothy



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I can see your points, but I tend to think the scarcity in wood and jobbers is because people want to run out and buy their own ship once they can, and I wonder just how many ships were bought but now actually not used.

I mean, how many crews out there currently have WAY more ships than is necessary? I don't know the answer for sure, but I have my suspicions.

I'm not proposing making ship sinking a really common occurance. Just put the POSSIBILITY there, to make people use their head instead of knowing that their precious ship is invincible to everything. That way, if you're REALLY careless or act very recklessly and draw the black ship on yourself, you could pay a bigger price than just having your ego bruised up a bit.

Also, even though you have your ship and you use it because you're not in a crew, I would think a lot of people buy ships for the sake of their crews, and not just for their own personal use. I know some crews even just pool their money together, and the ship arbitrarily "belongs" to the Captain, but it's the whole crew's ship.

If you're concerned with your crew sinking your ship, why not start a crew yerself and only bring people on who you trust your boat with? Otherwise, let unknown crews use their own boats. :)

Lothy
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Sailing under the Flag Plundered Hearts
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Nothing



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Hello.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Nothing at Sep 4, 2003 2:02:15 AM]
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Lothy



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You're right... allow me to clarify. I like the idea of restricting who can take your boats out, btw. That's a good feature to add.

If you started your own crew, you'd have to either a) find people who have played the game for a while and are already comfortable with the Nav puzzle, or b) teach someone the ropes and make sure you have a couple jobbers doing carpentry and bilging. You can tell before you hire on the jobbers if they're decent in those two jobs to compensate any growing pains your trainee navigator runs into.

And this is slightly off the topic of this post, but I think the shortage of jobbers also relates to it really not paying to be a jobber on most ships. A lot of crews offer 5 shares to their Captain, and work their way down so jobbers barely get 2 or even ONE in some cases. A lot of crews have 3 to 2 ratios which isn't too bad. Still, when my crew isn't online, I look at the potential jobs available. It's more profitable to me to hop on a Navy boat and pull Incredibles for a trip and earn 70 PoE than to hop on as a jobber who only gets 1 share to everyone else's 3 or more. Then cruise around with them, only earning half as much for a trip TWICE as long.

But I'll cut out that subject unless we wanna start a new discussion on it...
Arrrr..... me long-winded chatter could fill a mighty sail... hehe

Lothy
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Nothing



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Hello.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Nothing at Sep 4, 2003 2:22:18 AM]
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atteSmythe

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Actually, I'm ALL FOR crews with horrible pay for jobbers.

...because the only people that job with them are the people who apply for every job on the docks at the same time, and I'm just happy to see them not get paid.

atteSmythe
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svarog



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Nothing wrote: 
I wouldn't mind sunken or stuck ships or anythin', as long as it can be recovered. But then it's not that much use against problems mentioned above.


Sure it does. If you force a little responsibility on people it will be enough deterrent against those that just *want* or *have to have* a ship.

I appreciate the positive feedback on the barnacle idea. Though i realize it would go really low on the list (oh.. that list, she be a mighty one).
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joedigriz

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Lothy wrote: 
Well, I've never had the displeasure of having to fight the black ship, but from what I've heard it's pretty ridiculous. However, isn't it your own darn fault if you get it? It doesn't attack you arbitrarily. You have to pick on lesser ships to make it show up. Perhaps if they relaxed it a bit so you couldn't get it on the first "offense" to prevent an accidental targeting of a teal ship causing you to get blown to bits...


There are several stories of lag-induced problems where, just as someone goes to click "engage" on a green ship, another crewmember comes aboard and causes the target to turn blue. There are also times when it's easy to miss which ship you've targetted in a crowd of other ships, especially if you're paying attention to something else at the time (Navigating or Sailing, for example). Ye Ole Mouse Pointer isn't always that accurate.

And, as far as I know, you generally won't get the Black Ship right away. However, there's some sort of counter that makes the possibility more and more likely each time you intercept a blue ship. And this counter *stays* that way, as far as I know, meaning it doesn't reset when you dock the boat. (Although it might reset somewhat once you actually have met the Black Ship.)

 

I don't know, I think the fact that larger ships gain damage faster is due to the fact that they expect you to have multiple carpenters. Thus, if you only have one person carpenting, and not enough people to spare to HELP carpent, perhaps the gigantic boat shouldn't have been taken out just then. This would force crews to have a decent actively participating number of pirates to be able to adequately man a larger ship.


While that is true, there is such a thing as people leaving or being disconnected suddenly. And while, yes, you can hire jobbers, you can't rely on that happening. Sometimes you deluged with people applying, othertimes you can go a good 10 or 15 minutes without any.

 

This sort of thing would make the larger ships more of an impressive commodity to be able to buy and maintain, but also something a crew will want to take care of and protect.


It would actually mean that you'd rarely, if ever, see anything bigger than a large sloop on the water. Mainly because people would be afraid to take out their 50K brig out for fear of it never coming back. They'd only be out when it would be assured there would be 15 full-time crew members (and 3 officers) aboard, because there would be no way in hell anyone would take one out full of jobbers.

 

Maybe if you did it in a two step process. Perhaps, if a ship is given full damage and bilge, it would be "disabled" and would have to be taken to the nearest island. From there, it'd be unable to set sail again until some sort of special "repair" puzzle or carpentry was done to fix everything up. If the ship was left too long with full damage and bilge, THEN it would sink, but you'd at least be given the opputunity to salvage yourself before instantly sinking.


Actually, that might not be a bad idea. Larger ships would obviously require more people working on it to get it fixed faster. Or (as has been suggested) you could pay the local ship builder to fix it for you. (Assuming there is one, of course; if you get the boat stuck out in Sapphire or Pearl, good luck. Hope ye be good at carpentry.) Note that I don't think you should have to repair it all the way. I think dropping the damage to 1/2 or 2/3 (and, similiarly, the bilge) should be sufficient to get it underway again. But most definitely have a period, perhaps say no more than a week, that the ship can stay that way before it gives up and sinks.

I'm imagining this little tugboat suddenly popping up out of nowhere and towing the ship to the nearest port. :)
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Garbuck - Red Mantis Scapegoat and Pretty Pretty Princess
[Sep 4, 2003 2:57:07 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    jal_95    joedigriz [Link]  Go to top 
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