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hidemyhoney

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The newest ocean has become a failure Reply to this Post
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At the start of this experiment in 2017, forculus announced that obsidian ocean would be rushed into a release, to bring new players to the game. At one stage, it killed off oceans like meridian and took a majority of emerald players in the process, in the wake of all main oceans to be dead. But that didn't exactly happen , once obsidian hit 800 players it never peaked again. Everyone moved back to emerald selling out from their home oceans.

So my questions are, what was the major reasons why obsidian failed?
Was it due to the wrong target of audience that is steam players where it's more difficult to multicilent?
Did the pvp aspect turn players off?
Did people refuse to completely start all over again?
If people have more questions I'd love to hear them.

With that there are positives to obsidian that main oceans do not have, for example obsidian have 1 hour idle time while main oceans only have 15 mins. Another is there is more sink based areas, no SMH badge so anyone can apply and finally if possible flags win islands they get ownership of their own inn (mostly retired people hold them).

My next question is why is all these great benefits on the new dead ocean but not on the main oceans? I do not see in anyway that this is fair to oceans with more of a playbase which are the main oceans?
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[Apr 15, 2019 2:53:45 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Scottays

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With that there are positives to obsidian that main oceans do not have, for example obsidian have 1 hour idle time while main oceans only have 15 mins. Another is there is more sink based areas, no SMH badge so anyone can apply and finally if possible flags win islands they get ownership of their own inn (mostly retired people hold them).

My next question is why is all these great benefits on the new dead ocean but not on the main oceans? I do not see in anyway that this is fair to oceans with more of a playbase which are the main oceans?


I didn't try Scottys too much on Obsidian so cannot answer that. But +1 for those updates on main oceans doe.
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Doulber

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Obsidian is missing the D.
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Murcatto

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Hard to know why I'm replying other than to get off my chest the annoyance I feel at the decline and basically death of the new ocean.

It should have been something brilliant, us all back together for one more run but I think the issue was, Did it ever have enough focus??

"From concept to play in 18 months flat
With a team of just six people, Three Rings Design went about welding pirates to puzzles. It wasn't easy; with a small team and a limited budget, hard decisions had to be made."

Link to how long it took to make the original brilliance of YPP HERE CLICK

I want to basically scream this part, I want to shout it so hard that my throat goes raw. How can something so beautiful be built so quickly, yet in the same time we're met with the odd colour addition to the game now?

We had almost two years of the Dark Seas concept and little development, unforgivable with far more advancements now than the tools the original team had to work with. (It's a world I know little of, but if phones can do what they can now, wouldn't it suggest game making has grown also?)

But we were met with much the same game as we've all grown to love, which was not entirely a bad thing. Nostalgia is such a powerful tool and what's not broken doesn't usually need fixing; however, have any real additions come out of all that time? Are Grey Havens suggesting that there aren't any people out there who would look to help in the revival, to give time and money to make this some shadow of its former greatness? Or would the most likely scenario be that it's always been very insular at the highest level? With some of the most basic gameplay issues unknown to the ones we're to have a dialogue with, people who don't play the game, or when they did were invested in so many other aspects that some of the more trivial mechanics are beyond their grasp.

That's too blanket a statement I know, but some real frustration leaking out and I assure you that I genuinely admire many of the OMs, I also can't understand how difficult their job must be, as well as the issues that they are told by upper management and how much they're hamstrung. I can't blame them for the blanket silence, as that has to be something from up top surely? This is secrecy in an age of transparency, when the hype is built from the little tidbits you can offer.

But for me, that is one of the most tremendous issues on this game. While I don't want a personal landline connection to the custodians of our game at every moment, but to have nothing but silence? Not even the slightest peep on the direction the game is going, no dialogue back with the community at all? You almost begin to feel rather unwelcomed, and while I applaud them for keeping the game alive for us, does that mean I can offer no critique against what is basically running this thing of ours into the ground?

Sure I don't have any ownership. In comparison to many others, I have offered little to the community in my time here. I've possibly had even some of the most paltry monetary contributions. But I do give it time, and it's difficult when you want something so terribly to succeed only to see it slide into the abyss. Please tell us what to do! That's all I and most of the community want, for those at Gray Havens to tell us what to do. Let's revive this thing together.

WHY OBSIDIAN FAILED

(1) Focus on PVP:

While successful in today's era of gaming, this isn't the cornerstone this game was built on. This isn't why the majority of the population today were pulled into the game initially. Were you looking for a new market or trying to make it as highly enjoyable for the ones who formerly enjoyed it so much?

The focus should have been on the community, on PVE and working together. For me I've developed so many close friendships via the medium of this game, I've travelled to countries I'd have never even considered visiting, and I think it's opened my eyes as a person to a lot. But in the 11 years of playing prior to Obsidian, the making of friendships-to-enemies ratio was ridiculous, and I barely had any real falling out in those 11 years.

Yet in the short two-year span of Obsidian, the format of Dark Seas has caused the breakdown of bonds, of permeating silence from once former friends, all because of whom I'd chosen to hang out with at that moment. The game has created division, but to what goal?

When the user base is declining to almost nothing, is the goal sinking more ships with little hope of rebuilding them? Blockades are more expensive now than if we had a constant 1k population. We shouldn't be driving users away. This is what Obsidian became, I am honestly not trying to throw shade here boys, but for ***** and ***, to the likes of ***** & **** how many users have each of you driven away? Yes, you maximised the game, and for the former, there was some just cause in *** case and *** in making his large flag one that people didn't see as easy meat. But in doing what you did, you retired numerous players, and I know it's not your job to keep people in the game from a development standpoint you were precisely the type of gameplay they sought.

(Names blacked out as they detract and maybe make it seem personal, know that numerous of these contributors were also banned players from the game. So not only were their actions contributing to people walking away. Some of them, themselves shouldn't have been active within the game.)

The PVP focus caused declining users and, maybe it's a lack of foresight, but to see it go so wrong so quickly why not pull the plug, why not re-roll with a new idea? Instead of just throwing hands up and walking away from the game, one we're all still invested in and seek out the development of.

Obsidian should have been about PVE, unite the user base and welcome in the new by guiding them on the path. But as it stood, the skilled had no time for the novice, the experienced took advantage of the new players and annihilated them. In weeks of gameplay, their possessions were gone and hard work was moot. Had the focus been more about unity and guiding the masses to a common goal first off, wouldn't that have been more magical?

We bred hostility, gamesmanship, distrust all these horrible things in the quest to win and dominance, that wasn't the PP I first encountered and maybe in the political dynamic at the highest level it's always been around, but I don't feel I ever experienced it to the level Obsidian forced on us as players. Neutrality wasn't ever a viable option, sides were taken and like some ill-advised psychological experiment, we turned on each other with venom.

DO NOT JOB (INSERT SIDE) HERE
DO NOT BUY FROM (INSERT SIDE) HERE
DO NOT BE SEEN FRATERNIZING WITH (INSERT SIDE) HERE


(2) Not Phasing out the other options:

When Apple brings out a new phone, they eventually phase out the older models by no longer producing them. No longer repairing them and ultimately even slowing it down purposely, so you seek out the new upgrade.

I know as ruthless as it sounds, but when it's a revival, and someone is on the operating table, harsh decisions need to be taken. It would have been a huge gamble, but forcing everyone onto one ocean was required. Activity breeds activity, think of all the times you've gone to a restaurant and then been put off by the emptiness of it. "No one else is there must suck" Which is why when it is empty, they immediately try and seat you at the window, it's an essential thing, but it works. Same with the pub or anything else, we're sort of sheep in that way. If others aren't involved, we think maybe this isn't worthwhile?

We'd have lost some people with the closure of the ancient oceans; I have little doubt on that. But how many remained for their friends, only for it to slowly drift and drift until they rotted away? Midnight and Cobalt should have been a perfect learning curve for the company when the doubloon oceans hit.

Does anyone in their right mind not think the subscription oceans are infinitely better? They lacked the vast populace of the doubloon oceans, so even the ones who enjoyed the sub model slowly but surely gravitated towards where the people were. The loyalists remained on the subscription oceans with their trinkets and friends, and slowly it dwindled to nothingness, we log on for the most part for the people. Sometimes we need to be directed to one location, and it would have helped the longevity of the game.

(3) Not being fully invested:

You were Napoleon stretching resources too thin Grey Havens... You were the crazy cat lady who wanted to look after too much alone? You were, at worst, an absentee landlord allowing what was once significant to crumble due to apathy. But that's me looking at it from a massive fan of your work and someone who sincerely wants Puzzle Pirates to succeed, to me I'd rather you no longer support Spiral Knights or such and focus your entire efforts on the game I'd like. (I know I'm selfish, you owe me nothing but now I'm part of your world, I can't help but want to see it continue to flourish.)

It's your baby, and you've shown an unwillingness to let anyone else in. This community has people who have grown up with this game, people who are now very skilled professionals in their chosen field. Why aren't we opening a constant dialogue with them? We had Scythera doing a trailer, people just needed to be asked and they'd do it. People can code, they can do graphics, they're lawyers, they're marketers. Are we not for one moment thinking you don't have anyone who could help out? The community merely needs to be asked, tell us what to do, and we're full in.

Do we set up a gofundme with transparency towards specific $ goals for coding changes?
Does it go towards a YouTuber playing the game to broaden the appeal and get us noticed? These influencers in the world today could help an initial rush to the game.

But through this all, you've been unwilling to go that route and continue to keep yourself apart from us all; I understand that when you?re pouring yourselves into a project and our constant moaning and annoyance about how things used to be doesn?t help. But we also can't know what you?re doing without telling us.

I can't help see the similarities sometimes of an active crew; people will give you endless time as a Captain, as long as you're providing them with activities to do. Give them a task and they feel rewarded, that they're a part of things. You lighten the load on yourself, but become insular and never once ask anyone to do anything? They become less engaged to the point it just all withers out.

But the key to any ocean being successful is the owners having to roll the dice and put themselves so wholeheartedly into it. I know it?s nowhere near that level, but when I've reached out to old friends from the game when I've needed something the responses are there. Just ask, and you?ll receive. Can you imagine if Cleaver, or any of the other owners or people in authority reached out to old OM's, former players etc. and said look we're back and ready to go that some of them wouldn't be like "YES THE SCUPPERING GANGS BACK TOGETHER" Of course they would, and we'd all have a more fabulous environment for it. But you tend not to ask for these favours unless you?re passionate about something.

(4) Slow to react:

Countless times with issues and bugs within the game, the reaction time is slow and almost left until it's beyond breaking point.

To touch on a few and they also come from the other oceans also.

Competition exploits: Why was this not picked up on earlier? Now, of course, there are a few pirates who smoke other puzzlers and smash bottles of rum, but win so consistently. Didn't anyone even consider for one moment, hold on in average puzzling x score routinely is the height. But come puzzle competitions we have a dominant peak occurring? This continued for years.

Pillaging Bug: I have extensively written on this, swabby introduction nerfed the payouts of pillaging due to an unforeseen? Bug. Which killed most people's interest in running as the greedies were easy to run and more money. I?m not suggesting the removal of the swabbies, but to see the decline in payouts and not respond even once, when it?s the foundation of the game. How long were we to wait?

Botting:

I'm routinely told that the bots so endemic on the game were/are made by hobbyists and high school kids, that some haven?t been updated since 2012 and yet we cannot stem this tide. Reports have been sent in, but generally, they're focused on getting rid of specific players as opposed to the actual botting in itself. I've benefited from them being on my boats before. That crazy puzzler who will go hours not whining over my disastrous ability to run a pillage and who performs regularly at a 9/10 level, but how many real puzzlers does it put off, especially when you can?t possibly compete?

For the lists to be so rampant, it either shows a lack of interest in following through on catching them (I genuinely don't think so), or that in this day and age, the game is ill-equipped to deal with it. If that's so, why haven't measures been taken? World Of Warcraft won a legal case to stop HonourBuddy from ruining their game, why not change the TOS scan our computers when we play and annihilate the vast majority of it in one swoop? It's an arms race to be sure, but open dialogue with these people, they're players for a reason, and a great many in that community most likely would look to rid the game of it too.

Speedhacking: This has taken over the game currently. It's ruthlessly used by many, and the chances of people being caught are continuously cited as zero. Many players keep spreadsheets of peoples average CC scores on Cursed Isle runs, so shouldn't the game be tracking similar patterns? If I suddenly go from a 10 average one month to a 30+ average the next, shouldn?t questions be raised? If someone is suddenly gaining more copious amounts of greedies, or even the sf puzzle/rumble puzzle is sped up can?t we be finding ways of catching it promptly?

Greedy Exploit: This was early phases of Obsidian, wasn?t fixed until around winter time I believe? But I've heard from one of the players involved in it that, in a short space of time, over one thousand greedies could be grabbed by pirates on ships, due to taking a spawn that?s not yours and crushing sailors with your team to high effect. This entire operation (as many are ongame) was ratted out by someone who was close to the ones doing it. Why wasn't anyone high up noticing this? Why did it take players to see that thousands of greedies were entering the game daily? When on average it should have been nowhere near that game-changing figure?

Hyperranking: A thread was up many years ago on the issue of hyperranking; it wasn't then fixed for numerous years later. It wasn't an issue then became one once the broader masses began to use it, again the reactions are too slow.

The 24-hour ramp bug was adjusted mid-game early Midnight, that?s what we need people on the ground following and tracking these things as there is a fine line between game breaking mechanics or just pushing the game to the very maximum. I'm incredibly jealous I never once thought up how to do it myself, admiring how someone could work it out. But also knowing how game is breaking it really was and should have been fixed long before.

Look I get it, as players we shouldn't be messing around and doing these things. We should be following the rules and playing within adequate parameters. But while that's how the majority will operate, the small percentage who don't is why you need hard coded measures to prevent them. As in a way should they be punished for having the methodical approach to finding ingenious advantages? (Not including botting/sf hack) So to save the more extensive user base, you need to make it all but impossible for everyone to do any of these things. React fast and hard. Put a stop to it and make a statement.

As when you don't, pirate A who has been speedhacked against, why doesn't he then look towards doing it? It's not right, but that's how people think in competition, otherwise, why did we have to go 18 places to find the only non-PED user in the Tour De France?

Pirate A routinely loses competitions; he thinks X pirate is infinitely better than them; these things do occur. But you then hear the reality is X pirate found a little way of doing a super combo that when you know, the puzzle requires little effort. How does this make Pirate A feel?

How many other pirates were robbed due to apathy and indecision. Nickbush himself in the thread where exploits were finally then sort of fixed. Spoke on how he'd approached a long time prior to it and had stopped using many of the tricks, so he was there willing to give up all the information and guide you to a fix, but his approach was rebuffed, and it was left to a banned player to continuously bring it up. Only once the wider masses knew of it was a fix implemented. (Not adequately but that's another argument)

This is why we needed the RobertDonalds the ones who would push a mechanic as much as they could. He was no doubt a headache, but what he was doing was keeping the devs on their toes to implement fixes. The user base knew of what he was doing and ultimately kept the pressure on and repairs were put in so he knew he couldn't push those boundaries. What occurs now is the user base aren?t as maybe invested or don't have this one figure bringing it all to the attention of the game, so things are overlooked as a non-issue.

(5) Reliance on whales:

This entire doubloon model, are we not for profit or not? Are we keeping the games alive for people to have somewhere to play still, or is this looked like a hard nosed business?
We get updates for vanity boxes, the gold boxes etc. and the entire game screams to give it money. But while yes we get a chance at those beautiful items, are we getting anything of real tangible value on the game. The 8 months of no real updates would suggest we aren't and that makes it just a milking operation. But a great many of us users still hold out hope for the game, we still think things may happen. But how many customers have now been turned off from the Obsidian ocean? All that invested money to then see the ocean die. Let's not continue to repeat the mistakes of the past.

For any new ocean and that would be my dream, a great many of these issues would need to be fixed. But most importantly if it's for money making. Yes, doubloons will get you the short term nut, but for the long term, a subscription model would be where community can be grown, where people are coming invested for the long term and the life for it. I understand the dreamer in me is potentially wrong, seeing as subscriptions are hard in this world of free games, but we're a loyalist user base at this point. Surely some brainstorming could work out?

Positives of Obsidian for me

* Idle timer was huge, the amount of times someone would idle a bit see a friend and just stay on, or in that time a conversation lights up and you don't lose out on it.

* The shadow fleet, it could have been some story. Why was no story added, but the visuals of the island it gave me so much hope.

* Dusting of shoppes, inns, etc. While it?s nice to have something eternally, it's better for gameplay for people to not have something forever. / Downside was it makes it really personal when people lose stuff. Julie of Obsidian is a strong example, very engaged in the community while owning Tailor shoppe, once losing it, was uninterested.

* Badges were good, get rid of paywalls.

* The fresh start, silly as it sounds was wonderful and the populace. But to be real Obsidian is more or less same as other oceans, no huge difference.


Crazy eh? I've played so many hours on Obsidian I'd be embarrassed to list it, yet I can find so few positives. That's not a knock on the entire game, basically had they re-rolled the normal game into a new ocean. I'd have been there and that's sort of how I feel Obsidian was, just a slightly dusted off old ocean.

With the addition of some mechanics that just hurt it, I know I'm coming off as someone who is a grumpy old man and this is bad and that's bad. But I want to stress I've had so much bloody fun during Obsidian, I just hunger for more, for better. I want to see improvement, I want the game to last and I want everyone together. It's obsessive I'm even like this with a game and the owners are, psht we're busy with our own lives amigo. But you created something that I and many others can't help but continuously enjoy and like a relationship going sour, we're grasping on and not wanting them to walk out the door. I'd literally do anything I can attempt at this point to try and make this better for us all, I think a great many of the players would also. We just need direction, Grey Havens.

This toxic relationship is bad for both of us, I lash out at you for something you don't feel you're doing wrong, I hang around and complain all the while you tell me to leave if I don't like it.(I praise too!!!) But for what we had before, surely you can give us a shot at some therapy? Let's all sit down and talk, get the ball rolling and re-ignite this passionate relationship we once had!

Give us something GH, do you want to keep going, do you want to pass the torch to someone else, can the users do anything? Do you want topless pictures with your names emblazoned on, hairy chest included. We'll do it. Do you want pizza and a case of your favourite tipple routinely sent to the house? Let's all talk and we'll make it happen.

But until you open dialogue with us, then nothing will improve. The users are sliding even on Emerald with the influx, let's not wither away like this. I think there's still some life in the old dog just yet.

Your huge pain in the ass, but forever your #1 fan, Three Rings baby we've had our Rocky V (I hate you Tommy Gunn) Let's pull out the heavy bag, dust of the gloves and fasten our wraps and revive this franchise and slug it out once more. #Champ #AlwaysaContender #ADRIANNNN #Bayne xoxo #James xoxoxo #Erskine xoxoxo



"We were giants once, remember.."
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Solitude
Captain of Tick Tock
Stand & Deliver

Even winning means nothing. We win because it’s an insult to lose.
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[Edit 4 times, last edit by Murcatto at Apr 17, 2019 10:35:54 AM]
[Apr 17, 2019 9:47:19 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
patgangster

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This post. This post right here. It's huge, but you should read it. It's full of truth. Not often do I find posts this large and find myself agreeing with nearly all of it.
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TriplePat, Emerald.
[Apr 17, 2019 10:56:22 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shinito

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Feel like everyone would have been fine if GH simply maintained the servers, OM support and focused the development on bug fixes and quality of life. To go out and make Dark Seas, hype it up, try to make it work and finally just give up seems simply bad.
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Thorkill on Malachite 2.0 Obsidian
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Warhoar

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My favourite part was how Grey Havens ran a competition to name the Buildings on Lionhaven and Night Harbour and couldn?t even be scuppered following through with that. Literally couldn’t be bothered renaming 12 buildings...

Shows how much they actually care.

Obsidian = Cashgrab
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Warhoar at Apr 17, 2019 12:55:06 PM]
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zapadapa

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Totally agree with all the above posts.
All the puzzles are still fun, but the social aspect (which is critical) is gone on all oceans now that the numbers are so low.
When Obsidian opened, so many old players returned, it was almost like old times. We had great expectations. But while it started well, I believe that the lack of engagement by Grey Havens has caused the decline. It really became just "same old, same old".
The world today revolves around social media and communication. The communication here is, unfortunately, one-sided. We need more GH communication, both good news and bad news. Even just a "Hi! We are still here!". Maybe all that GH can do with low staff numbers is day-to-day maintenance, but tell us that! Or if you have something new you are working on, tell us that too! We can all speculate as much as we like but none of us really knows what is going on.
By the way, thanks for keeping the game going. The alternative is unbearable.
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Zapa of Emerald
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Kyura94

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This post. This post right here. It's huge, but you should read it. It's full of truth. Not often do I find posts this large and find myself agreeing with nearly all of it.

Truth. Seldom find long yet sensible posts, definitely encourage forum lurkers to read it. The pain points are laid out very coherently.
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I made an in-depth Distilling guide here, and a guns one somewhere.
I gave Obsidian their Owls c:
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Scottays

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100% agreed with solitude, it is a real shame that grey havens do not communicate with their player base at all regarding in-game issues. Reason why we keep bringing up these issues including botting, skilled swabbies, idle times, reducing blockade windows and many other issues is due to no communication from grey havens the more they neglect and keep silent, emerald will suffer meridian and obsidian's fate very quickly.
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Trophy Hunter - Scottys on Meridian.
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xelto

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So my questions are, what was the major reasons why obsidian failed?
Was it due to the wrong target of audience that is steam players where it's more difficult to multicilent?

I don't think so. There are ways to mitigate the need to multiclient.

 
Did people refuse to completely start all over again?

No. As the rush to Obsidian showed, there are plenty of players who were willing to start over.

 
Did the pvp aspect turn players off?


Yes... but not because PvP existed. As plenty of games out there prove, there are a large number of people who enjoy player vs player games. The problem is that Y!PP was designed to be a cooperative game, not a competitive one.

1) To most of the players, the experience of what's going on doesn't change when the arena changes. You're still playing variations on Dr. Mario, Bejeweled, top-down Tetris, or whatever comparisons you want to make between rigging and patching. It doesn't matter if you're pillaging, in Atlantis, in a blockade, or doing player vs player.

2) Sea battle isn't designed to work with a non-AI player. It's too easy to run away, too easy for a skilled crew to repair damage faster than it's made. I never played on Obsidian, but I really don't think the changes they announced to the arenas there would reduce the amount of slog in the sea battle game, if your opponent isn't programmed to keep fighting in mostly-predictable ways in almost all cases.

----------------

The problem is that Grey Haven listened to their customers. So many players had been saying for so long that they wanted PvP that, well, GH provided it. Despite that not being what the game was. They were far more successful with the inclusion of greedies, something that meshed well with the existing game.
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Gurndigarn on Emerald Ocean
"Oh, come on. You jobbed onto a ship called the Cursed Isle Raider and you expected *refined*?"
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patgangster

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Did people refuse to completely start all over again?

No. As the rush to Obsidian showed, there are plenty of players who were willing to start over.


It did. Yes, people rushed to Obsidian on Launch. "Not wanting to restart" or "I don't want to play where I don't have my Emerald goodies" was a commonly seen reason for the half of the community that didn't rush there.

Agree on the other points.
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[Apr 18, 2019 9:29:45 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Did people refuse to completely start all over again?

No. As the rush to Obsidian showed, there are plenty of players who were willing to start over.


It did. Yes, people rushed to Obsidian on Launch. "Not wanting to restart" or "I don't want to play where I don't have my Emerald goodies" was a commonly seen reason for the half of the community that didn't rush there.

There is an important difference between "i'll go check it out and maybe play some" and "I'm moving, and won't play on the old ocean". Yeah, a lot of people went and reserved their pirate names. A lot of people when and tried the ocean to see what had changed, there were sharp rises when beta started, when it went live on steam. Some people went to experience new island openings. But, those peaks faded quickly.

One other comment from the OP. I don't think Meridian was killed by Obsidian. Meridian was fading (compared to Emerald) long before Obsidian was even hinted at. What killed meridian was the inherent instability of the doubloon market. Once it costs too much PoE for a doub, there is no reason to put very many doubs on the market, which drives the PoE price higher until the market collapses. The fact that OOO/GH never addressed this problem shows how out of touch they were. (Ugh. here I am speaking of GH in the past tense...)
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[Apr 18, 2019 10:35:26 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kamuflaro

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Out of curiosity I would ask those that left 2017-2018 on the reason. After that the death of Obsidian was a self-fulfilling prophecy. It just happened faster than I thought when I joined a couple of months ago. Possibly due to the stories everyone hears of the ancient land of Emerald.
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[Apr 18, 2019 11:28:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shinito

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2) Sea battle isn't designed to work with a non-AI player. It's too easy to run away, too easy for a skilled crew to repair damage faster than it's made. I never played on Obsidian, but I really don't think the changes they announced to the arenas there would reduce the amount of slog in the sea battle game, if your opponent isn't programmed to keep fighting in mostly-predictable ways in almost all cases.


That was kind of mind baffling of "yea we gonna make a pvp focused ocean but also we'll not make any mechanical changes to bnav". And there even was a ready made solution in a form of Imperial Outposts.
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[Apr 18, 2019 12:06:20 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
xelto

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Did people refuse to completely start all over again?

No. As the rush to Obsidian showed, there are plenty of players who were willing to start over.

It did. Yes, people rushed to Obsidian on Launch. "Not wanting to restart" or "I don't want to play where I don't have my Emerald goodies" was a commonly seen reason for the half of the community that didn't rush there.


There were enough people who rushed over that several "Obsidian worked, close down the original oceans already" threads started. And as for those who stayed, "Don't want to start over" wasn't the only reason. I heard "not interested in an ocean focusing on PvP" a fair bit (and it was my personal reason, as well).

I think you could convince essentially everyone to start over, but you have to provide something noticeably better than what they already have. A decently done, brand new "Puzzle Starship" game, for instance, could probably snag most of the current YPP players, despite nothing from the old game coming over (or if this is made by a different company, not even having the chance of bringing anything over.)

Even a Y!PP 2.0 game could get everyone to completely start over, though it would be advisable for GH to post a note about "too long to program/not everything existing in the new game/etc." to mitigate the number of complaints they would get. But, the important part of this all, is that it has to be a significant improvement over what we have already. Obsidian wasn't enough of a change for many of us.
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[Apr 18, 2019 3:12:28 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Scottays

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One other comment from the OP. I don't think Meridian was killed by Obsidian. Meridian was fading (compared to Emerald) long before Obsidian was even hinted at. What killed meridian was the inherent instability of the doubloon market. Once it costs too much PoE for a doub, there is no reason to put very many doubs on the market, which drives the PoE price higher until the market collapses. The fact that OOO/GH never addressed this problem shows how out of touch they were. (Ugh. here I am speaking of GH in the past tense...)


Correct, the ocean was dead months prior to Obsidian, it was when Sea Monster Hunts were only strictly run on Emerald, everyone made the jump some people tried to keep it alive but in the end people always want better, which resulted in Meridians decline then months after I was happy to have at least an alternative which right now there isn't another alternative its just emerald. That means it'll probably be dead sometime in late 2019 or 2020 if Grey Havens continue the way they are doing. The Doubloon price is broken for pretty much 2 reasons, 1st reason is some person is buying dubs on that ocean for 19k where they can make their money on emerald to buy dubs for 3k lel. 2nd reason is its basically an inactive doubloon system since, the doubloon gap is always greater than 3-4k compared to emerald its 50 poe.
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Trophy Hunter - Scottys on Meridian.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Scottays at Apr 18, 2019 4:00:49 PM]
[Apr 18, 2019 4:00:13 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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Murcatto wrote: 
We bred hostility, gamesmanship, distrust all these horrible things in the quest to win and dominance, that wasn't the PP I first encountered and maybe in the political dynamic at the highest level it's always been around, but I don't feel I ever experienced it to the level Obsidian forced on us as players. Neutrality wasn't ever a viable option, sides were taken and like some ill-advised psychological experiment, we turned on each other with venom.

IMO, this was a significant contributor to the first downfall of Y!PP and it continues to be an issue. Politicking and parlaying in /global and on the forums is one thing, but the personal attacks and toxic behavior that continue to persist is bad for the game.

Murcatto wrote: 
It should have been something brilliant, us all back together for one more run but I think the issue was, Did it ever have enough focus??

"From concept to play in 18 months flat
With a team of just six people, Three Rings Design went about welding pirates to puzzles. It wasn't easy; with a small team and a limited budget, hard decisions had to be made."

It took 30 months to go from concept to live:

The Game Archaeologist Article wrote: 
With this framework in mind, the devs went from the concept to a fully playable game in 18 months. After an additional year of testing, Puzzle Pirates went live in 2003


Edit: I disagree with OP. Obsidian was not a failure. PP:DS is a much better game than Y!PP.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by majestrate at Apr 19, 2019 2:27:02 PM]
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hidemyhoney

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Um mate, Obsidian was a failure, PvP was pretty much abused for trophies and worthless owls and do explain why pretty much the whole population left it for emerald? I do not see any success from Obsidian. Only Success there is from Obsidian is the Pro's about Obsidian that can be implemented to main oceans.
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[Apr 19, 2019 5:24:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
xelto

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Only Success there is from Obsidian is the Pro's about Obsidian that can be implemented to main oceans.

What pros from Obsidian would you want to see ported to the standard oceans? I'm all for the reduction/elimination of poker, but that's far from universally desired, and I can't think of anything else I would want ported back. I stayed off Obsidian not because I didn't want to start over, but because I wasn't interested in most of what was over there.
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Gurndigarn on Emerald Ocean
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by xelto at Apr 19, 2019 6:01:29 PM]
[Apr 19, 2019 6:00:53 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kyura94

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Just to address an obvious point.

The biggest pro of Obsidian was Developer attention. Once that died, Obsidian died. People aren't unhappy about the lack of changes, they're unhappy about the lack of attention, the lack of responses, the lack of communication from Devs.
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[Apr 19, 2019 6:07:52 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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As a former addict of Puzzle Pirates and the forums I still check in from time to time but over all my play ins't more then 2 hours a month. Sadly the reasons were ignored from pre-launch to its death for me at-least. Here my opinions we all knew I hold them and many are still the same.
 
So my questions are, what was the major reasons why obsidian failed?


Top 3 reasons for fail in order.
1 Split the player base allowed the Emerald to keep 1/2 the players, while Obsidian grabbed new and returning players attention it needed the die hards, yes some wouldn't have come but in the end if you wanted to play you would move, people are lazy and well its hard to start over, while I embraced it many I knew went back to their wealth and fleet, shops and bid tickets ect.
2 "Fresh Start" expired in days/weeks. Same Barnical different color graphics by launch of the first island. The kade teams moved and well the game was just as closed off to new players and/or existing players not in the circle of the click. The game was still the same as it was as well. Only difference is more people had less money but a few swipes a few CC and the wales had purchased their win and had their teams. So much for the fresh start and new life/chances for building into something with out purchasing it and for me it wasn't worth the cash needed to play.
3 Exploiters/Cheaters, took the fun out of it for me. There were some great things added and they quickly found ways to grab them. To me its not much different then botting but oh well enjoy your pixelated trophies that you actually had to cheat to get. Making them worthless. From the Owl to the PvP trophies and more... Its really sad people cried out for a reason to PVP they responded and created a great one, trophies a fam and pet and line of ships you have to earn... or use a GF to sink your self/friend. Made pvp an annoyance instead of a exciting addition to the game (for me at least).

 
Was it due to the wrong target of audience that is steam players where it's more difficult to multicilent?


I hated the idea of multiclienting being difficult then I found it more enjoyable people actually played on their account not 2-3 or more but that went away see exploiters. While I had the ability to mutli client, I enjoyed soloing a great deal.

 
Did the pvp aspect turn players off?


Yes and No, See the post regarding people saying their is no reason to pvp, then one was created it got fun for a week or so then well we all know what happened. Switching it from a great exciting addition to a horrible fail.

 
Did people refuse to completely start all over again?

Some did, some tried and gave up went back. I enjoyed it it was fun to go grind to earn poe again to get things. It was a great chance to get a fresh start, getting all the LE ships (now its one of the only reasons I log in just to by the recycled LE ship) I enjoyed collecting them for some odd reason, and still do even if I will never use them.

****

Over all Puzzle Pirates went from the only game I played to one that I just can't muster a desire to play. If they ever implement a skilled bott program so the game can be played more as a solo game I would likely play again and/or launch a new small sub ocean (The dub oceans are to pay to win JMHO).

The old oceans are to large for the small player base, while the small ocean doesn't seem to appeal to the player base even though the size is a much better fit.

Thats my 2 poe worth.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
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[Apr 19, 2019 7:44:54 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
mari_

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DS allowed for the first time both those who had stayed with the sub model, to be combined with the dub model and make the move to an ocean where it satisfied both - this was one of the bigger selling points in bringing back a lot of retired players.

The concept of dark v light was interesting, but it never came to whatever fruition GH had desired for it.

Small ocean, all blockades sinking - great idea.

But ultimately it came down to, not enough conversation between GH and its players (even acknowledging the players were being heard would have been a good start). Most left playing understand GH is a small team, but when there is nothing - announcing a blockade closure on 4th May so far in advance, but nothing to wet the appetite to why was possibly another nail in the coffin.

Do I think DS is recoverable? Yes. Starting over again is painful for most (apart from those who had Emerald as their former home). But something tells me that sadly there is no new content to be added, no new SMH, no new pillage concept (owls were a disaster), so I think we are back to the people who have played for X many years still just keeping the game ticking over as it always has been, small pockets of people here and there, with Emerald at a peak right now - but we know summer doesn't sustain numbers sadly :(
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[Apr 20, 2019 3:11:18 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Scottays

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I think the biggest problem with Grey Havens today, is they have no idea how to communicate with the current player-base. I give them full credit for giving it a go with Dark Seas trying to pro-long the future of the game. But I guess they gave up after the Owl stuff. Even with some petitions I send all I get is a copy/pasted response to post it here, so when I do, do I get any communication from Grey Havens or anyone else gets that? nope.
May the 4th Blockades closing out of no where with no explanation? proves my point.
All we really want as players is communication, I see so many threads with no Dev/GH communication. Years ago I remember with OOO they did communicate with the players on whats going on and everything, if GH is former OOO employees as they say, then why did they stop talking? I think an explanation has been due for far too long. If it continues then Emerald is the final frontier. As an old saying "Be silent, or say something better than silence".
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[Apr 20, 2019 6:20:07 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Just an update. As I mentioned in this post, Obsidian would soon have a lower population than Meridian. It happened yesterday:
wayne@hipbone: $ for o in obsidian emerald meridian cerulean; do \
./island_pop_stats -odate $(date +%F -d "8 weeks ago") -ocean $o | head -1; done
Obsidian ocean: 847 - 2800 = -1953 -69.8%
Emerald ocean: 8461 - 6726 = 1735 25.8%
Meridian ocean: 859 - 863 = -4 -0.5%
Cerulean ocean: 1187 - 1137 = 50 4.4%
The first column is the island population as of yesterday, the second column is the population 8 weeks ago. Obsidian has been in a pretty sharp decline for two months (vs a more gradual decline since last summer). Meridian and Cerulean have been remarkably steady and Emeral is growing...
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[May 18, 2019 8:31:19 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shinito

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50 people who went back to Cerulean show yourself.
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[May 18, 2019 1:16:31 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
xelto

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Obsidian was wildly successful in one area: nobody has made a "make PvP easier" thread since it came out. Or a "We need to restart the oceans" thread, but I expect that one's going to be returning soon. :(
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Gurndigarn on Emerald Ocean
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