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Zenithar



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Community Shopkeeping Spreadsheets Preview and Feature Requests Reply to this Post
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I've been working on this the last while and am presenting a first draft preview specifically for a Distillery stall. There's a whole lot of other stuff this sheet pulls from that the user doesn't ever need to worry about.



By moving to google sheets I can add a whole host of features previous spreadsheets have been missing.

- Automatically pull tax and island information from yoweb.
- Inherit maintained information to other spreadsheets via referencing. (Any number of people will be able to use the spreadsheets and the queries to Yoweb (And potentially YAARG) will only ever run once.
- Publicly share the file for local copying via Google Sheets versus having to host a file on an external sharing site. You don't even need to log in to use some features.

Other features include select-able island site and shop size for comparing profitability across islands, and automatically calculating rent overhead and applying it to the effective/true cost of labor.

At this point I've got enough work in to show a brief preview, and ask about other features folks would like to see in the project.

There's a whole lot of stuff I can add, some of it being more labor intensive than others - and it'd help to know what people would consider useful.

(For example, if I add labor cost estimation to this thing I'd probably do so as a separate, premium version with a monthly PoE sub cost, because there is no API access to posted shop salaries and I'd be upkeeping that by hand.)
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Zenithar at Sep 18, 2018 2:24:11 PM]
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Zenithar



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Re: Community Shopkeeping Spreadsheets Preview and Feature Requests Reply to this Post
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Other notes:

If you operate any instance of the YAARG database and webserver, be it original or a cloned shard, and are willing to allow some very rate limited querying, please get in touch with me via PM.

Right now I'm maintaining commodity records by hand. I would very much like to not.

(I've tried contacting the original dev via their listed contact info and that's a no-go so I can't secure a realtime stream for myself.)
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Zenithar at Sep 18, 2018 2:30:40 PM]
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wrs1864b

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Several comments:

First, a very minor one, your "estimated cost" for commodities, and the "with tax" column are the same. It looks like you might have added the tax into the estimated value

Second, I'm not sure how you are calculating the "estimated cost" for commodities, it kind of looks like you are taking the average of all buy prices for a specific island.

Trying to figure out a good "estimated cost", in my experience, can be a tricky problem. This is a problem I worked hard to get a good answer to, and I have a program that gives me good results that I have used for easily over 5 years. More on that later.

Averaging all the commodity buy prices fails a lot of the time . For example, there are a lot of people who are buying large quantiles of gold nuggets for 1PoE each, and including those will give bogus results.

Using just one island can also cause a lot of problems. The <merchant bots> will tend to sell to islands that give the best price. So, if one island prices iron at 9PoE, while the next island over is buying iron at 10PoE, <merchant bots> will usually skip the cheaper island. There can be a lot of reasons for shopkeepers to under price their commodities. First, the other island may have just recently raised their prices and the shopkeepers on the lower price island may not have notices yet. Also, the shopkeepers on the lower prices island may not be selling much, so an occasional <merchant bot> delivery is all they need, but if you run your store well, you may sell a lot. Blindly following the other island merchants can get you into a lot of trouble.

Third, merry christmans. In particular, look at the "market price" database.

Fourth, I'm used to playing on subscription oceans and the labor costs are about half what you show. Is labor really that expensive on Obsidian? I guess you have to factor in the dub cost for most labor badges, but the last time I played on a dub ocean (viridian), labor was cheaper than sub oceans.
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Zenithar



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Re: Community Shopkeeping Spreadsheets Preview and Feature Requests Reply to this Post
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First, a very minor one, your "estimated cost" for commodities, and the "with tax" column are the same. It looks like you might have added the tax into the estimated value

Second, I'm not sure how you are calculating the "estimated cost" for commodities, it kind of looks like you are taking the average of all buy prices for a specific island.

Trying to figure out a good "estimated cost", in my experience, can be a tricky problem. This is a problem I worked hard to get a good answer to, and I have a program that gives me good results that I have used for easily over 5 years. More on that later.

Averaging all the commodity buy prices fails a lot of the time . For example, there are a lot of people who are buying large quantiles of gold nuggets for 1PoE each, and including those will give bogus results.

Using just one island can also cause a lot of problems. The <merchant bots> will tend to sell to islands that give the best price. So, if one island prices iron at 9PoE, while the next island over is buying iron at 10PoE, <merchant bots> will usually skip the cheaper island. There can be a lot of reasons for shopkeepers to under price their commodities. First, the other island may have just recently raised their prices and the shopkeepers on the lower price island may not have notices yet. Also, the shopkeepers on the lower prices island may not be selling much, so an occasional <merchant bot> delivery is all they need, but if you run your store well, you may sell a lot. Blindly following the other island merchants can get you into a lot of trouble.

Third, merry christmans. In particular, look at the "market price" database.

Fourth, I'm used to playing on subscription oceans and the labor costs are about half what you show. Is labor really that expensive on Obsidian? I guess you have to factor in the dub cost for most labor badges, but the last time I played on a dub ocean (viridian), labor was cheaper than sub oceans.


@1:
Estimated cost of use includes sales tax for each item, but the override box doesn't - IE, if someone manually overrides the estimated costs with a specific one, it'll add the known sales tax and put it to the third column. Next draft will make the distinction clearer, tyty.

@2:

Right now, it's estimating the cost of use by taking the Highest offer on the specific island and the amount of quantity ordered within 10% of the highest buy offer to estimate roughly how much has to clear before a lower priced order would. If there's just one standout much higher priced then the rest of the island's orders, it ends up reduced - if pretty much all of the island is standardized on a price, that's what the estimate is.
I'll need to investigate more to see whether the estimated cost/island should incorporate the broader sales tax item valuation information or not.

I myself am aware of the economics interplay between islands but am trying to condense that down to a simple-to-understand estimate number for people who aren't.

The critique is helpful, it means I should think about this section some more.

(Part of the utility of the spreadsheet is meant to be able to quickly look at cost changes if one opens on different islands, so I have to incorporate local pricing somehow.)



@3: Thanks, that's a helpful resource of sorts. It's not going to be as easy to work with as querying SQL myself but after futzing about a lot with Google Sheets to import Yoweb (Those Yoweb TSVs would have retroactively saved me a ton of time but also a good chunk of learning) I think I'll be able to selectively import from the TSVs and do all my querying inside Google Sheets, strange as it may be. This is a really helpful piece of info, thanks kindly. The big key was that I needed something hosted somewhere to pull from.

I will probably incorporate that entire oceanwide market price sheet into this system as an additional referance point as well.

@4:It's worst for distilling. There's a drastic labor shortage on both low end and high end. I'm trying to mitigate the issue as a player somewhat with my mentioned-elsewhere 'Booched' alt program but that's just going to help a little bit.

Edit: Edited because I split the quotes up and it seemed to break the formatting, and edited 3 after looking over the info.
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[Edit 8 times, last edit by Zenithar at Sep 19, 2018 7:18:33 PM]
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Zenithar



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Re: Community Shopkeeping Spreadsheets Preview and Feature Requests Reply to this Post
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Thanks to wrs1864b and my decision to just bite the bullet and import the entire TSV dataset I'm going to be able to add all kinds of features.

Here's an example. This took a bit more effort than it should due to idiosyncrasies in google sheets.





Box-selectable, auto-charting supply-demand curves for every item on every populated island.

Once I have all the islands actually implemented (Right now I just chose Melanaster) I'll also add 'Whole Ocean' as an option for the charts.
Future proof - when done will automatically update with any new implemented dockside items and adding a new island takes about a minute now that the POC is done.

Still nowhere close to public release but communicating with people is always a good thing.
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[Edit 3 times, last edit by Zenithar at Sep 20, 2018 12:27:41 PM]
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Zenithar



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Ver 2 of S/D charting.

- Changed how the graph will be created when there's very few datapoints. Behavior will remain a bit poor no matter what I do due to a Sheets bug but display is much improved.

- Added in the Sales Tax valuation & the Schlitt Oceanwide estimations. Chart data much more valuable as a result.


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wrs1864b

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nice!

Here is my version:

My version does not combine the buy and sell prices, I have to run tow different plots for that. Also, I only do ocean wide information. I could add an option to do only one island, or combine several islands (like a whole arch) quite easily, but so far, I've never been interested in that.

Now, if you keep track of all the data for each day, you could generate graphs like the ones I posted in this game design thread.

edit: d'oh! the yarrg uploader wasnt fixed for obsidian back then, here is a current "by date" plot for wood:

Ah, memories... The reason why I developed the "by date" plot was because of this game design thread back in 2013...

edit: AAAAAaaaahhh! I've been sucked into the programing vortex! I could not resist the pull! my price curve program can now do individual islands, a list of islands, an archipelago, or, for oceans that have been merged, an entire side of the ocean. Curse you!
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
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[Edit 3 times, last edit by wrs1864b at Sep 20, 2018 7:20:18 PM]
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Zenithar



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I've come close to the final version of my charting tool intended mainly for planning (Vs Data tracking) and come to a entirely opinion question I'd pose to potential users/community.

Do I cull outliers for data?

Arguments for: Well, just look at it. Someone's offering to sell iron at 10k/each, see what it does to a chart.

This isn't useful to anybody.

Arguments against - The instant I start editing the data from which things are created is the instant it goes from pure 'Visualizer' of information to something with changes to the dataset.

If I do cull outliers, by what criteria makes sense?

New features:
Charting:
-Two point island supply/demand comparison.
- Automatic calculation of linear interpolated supply/demand lines + formula display
Data Backend (Prepping for second version of shopkeeping sheets):
- Automatic aggregation of 'Oceanwide' data. (Future-proof, will work if more islands are added.)
- Analytics staleness sanity check. (Can check to ensure all sheets have properly updated. Cannot sanitycheck source data without the source data providing it. (Ex something saying: "Last Updated on XX/YY/ZZZZ" in yoweb or inside the TSV sets I pull from. I may be able to get creative with this later.)

What the chart with all options on looks like with a sane dataset:


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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Zenithar at Sep 22, 2018 2:50:01 PM]
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wrs1864b

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Do I cull outliers for data?

Arguments for: Well, just look at it. Someone's offering to sell iron at 10k/each, see what it does to a chart.

This isn't useful to anybody.

Arguments against - The instant I start editing the data from which things are created is the instant it goes from pure 'Visualizer' of information to something with changes to the dataset.

If I do cull outliers, by what criteria makes sense?

As I said in my first post to this thread, trying to find a good "estimated cost" can be tricky and something I beat my head against for quite a while.

First, I highly recommend you do what makes sense to you.

For my "market value" estimates, I definitely heavily cull and munge the data. As you point out, this means I can't quickly explain how I get my numbers. I ended up focusing on the definition of "the price you can expect if you buy/sell a reasonable quantity if you are willing to sail a bit" and if my program didn't give a reasonable answer, I'd tweak it toward this definition.

First, I take all the data, and trow out "bogus prices". That is, I throw out anything that is too far from my "market value".

Then, I use a heavily truncated mean. I throw out almost the top 5%, and almost the bottom 95% of the culled data, and average the remaining <1% sliver.

Next, since I now have a "market value", I know what to bogus price points to throw out on the first step!

Basically, I just keep repeating the above steps until my market value number converges. I can prove that it will always converge eventually and in practice it only takes 2-3 tries.

This means that a "reasonable amount" is up to a few percent of the market, and since I don't consider most of the top 5%, you don't have to sail to every island to get the absolute best price.

Yeah, how I get my market values is messy, and if you tried to do something similar, you would almost certainly end up with slightly different numbers. In practice, I've found that there isn't a perfect number, and as long as they are reasonable, you are fine. After all, the game is designed to have prices fluctuate, you can never hit this moving target.

*shrug*

Again, try to get an answer that you find useful.

edit: D'oh! the whole point of my rambling was that my program that plots the price curve normally shows only data between 0.05*mkt_price and 5*mkt_price. I have an option to show everything.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by wrs1864b at Sep 22, 2018 5:50:40 PM]
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Zenithar



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Edit 1: If you've made a copy (Before the most recent edit to this post) throw it out - setting up the share process has broken some things. Give me a moment to correct that.
Edit 2: Issue corrected, can make copies. Potentially caught this before anybody did anything independent, I hope.

First shared community sheet available for use - if you want to test it out, or use it, the instructions are simple.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/172e5FQJ80SO34g3O4YLdDgW2ocCeA_GO1L5VqUM8Wb0/edit#gid=0

1) Go to the link
2) Log in or create a sheets account.
3) File -> Make a Copy.

Do whatever you like with your personal copy - you can edit things and do whatever you like with the dataset, which will automatically import, but things you do won't affect other users that have made a copy of the sheet. (Note - will not provide maintenance if you break your copy - make a new copy if you do. Don't make edits below row ~100.)

All the sheets share the same common datasource that updates once/day, and only queries the Yoweb and Schlitt sources once - all the sheets just inherit.

If you experience any obvious issues with it please get in contact with me here or via discord.
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[Edit 4 times, last edit by Zenithar at Sep 26, 2018 12:35:46 PM]
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wrs1864b

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nice spreadsheet.

A few comments:

1) how do you get the doubloon costs? I've always wanted to track it, but could never find an automated way of getting it. And, for Obsidian, since I can't use steam, I can't even manually look at the exchange.

2) In my system, I compute the profit per LABOR hour, not just the wall clock hour. This is especially important for things like shipyards where you can end up making a lot more profit per day on some things than others since can burn through a lot of labor quickly on a single order.

3) do you take into account that stalls have a much lower per-wallclock hour max labor throughput for expert labor? For rum, this is critical, since shops can make rum non-stop, but stalls can't.

4) I notice you have a column labeled "manual sort". I don't know if it helps, but in this game design post, I give a link to all commodities that show up in the dockside market, in the order that the game uses (along with kg and liters).

5) Last, and really minor, but I doubt most people recognize me as wayne schlitt, but rather as either algol or wrs1864b. even better, using a term like "market value" or something might be more helpful to your users.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
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Zenithar



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nice spreadsheet.

A few comments:

1) how do you get the doubloon costs? I've always wanted to track it, but could never find an automated way of getting it. And, for Obsidian, since I can't use steam, I can't even manually look at the exchange.

2) In my system, I compute the profit per LABOR hour, not just the wall clock hour. This is especially important for things like shipyards where you can end up making a lot more profit per day on some things than others since can burn through a lot of labor quickly on a single order.

3) do you take into account that stalls have a much lower per-wallclock hour max labor throughput for expert labor? For rum, this is critical, since shops can make rum non-stop, but stalls can't.

4) I notice you have a column labeled "manual sort". I don't know if it helps, but in this game design post, I give a link to all commodities that show up in the dockside market, in the order that the game uses (along with kg and liters).

5) Last, and really minor, but I doubt most people recognize me as wayne schlitt, but rather as either algol or wrs1864b. even better, using a term like "market value" or something might be more helpful to your users.


1) Right now they're a manually-entered box. If I'm still involved in the game after finishing the basic spreadsheets I'll eventually manually curate (IE physically log in and write down the data) for the doubloon market and shop wages to eventually autopopulate them. That's a project for later though.

2)& 3) All 'production' calculations take into account max throughput per shop type per labor type. If people edit their number of employees their maximum production, and associated profit/hour, will adjust accordingly.

I chose to target profit/wallclockhour because the main thing I'm doing with my shops is producing commodities for sale - for me it's important to know what the most profitable thing per wallclock time is because that's how I calculate my ROI and where to make a new shop next - anybody enjoying the shop dataset can actually add profit/laborhour as a column relatively simply with all the other nearby data.

4) The manual column exists only because I was fighting with Google Sheets RegEx. After fighting RegEx to work with array-based calls for 30 minutes I figured since the recipes were all static I'd just manually order them the way I wanted because they're unlikely to change in the future.

Originally it would have dynamically calculated unit costs and such based on the recipe entry but it was way more effort than it was worth to allow for dynamically changing recipes.

5) Yeah I wasn't sure what specifically to call that dataset, but I wanted to make it clear it was an externally-calculated thing that I didn't know the internals of, that was being provided as extra information and another factor for looking at. I could swap to calling it 'External Reference' or something - Just wanted to be clear to any users of the datasheet that I wasn't the one calculating it, and my default is to attribute everything as best I can.

In the underlying datasheets everything is organized by attributed source. Please let me know if you'd like attribution anywhere else as well.
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[Edit 5 times, last edit by Zenithar at Sep 26, 2018 2:46:09 PM]
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Zenithar



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I added Profit/Labor Hours- Defined as:
(Estimated Sale Price - Estimated Unit Cost)/(Total Hours to Make)
to the copy-able sheet, because it was requested and quick.

Also in the process of adding notes for everything mentioned as part of feedback.

(As a general rule - any fixes or additions to the sheet above the imports will require a re-copy to get on one's personal form.)
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Zenithar at Sep 26, 2018 2:35:13 PM]
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ryujinpp

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column h126 - h133

why are the listed tax value 10x more than actual yoweb tax values?

listed values
Sugar Cane 5
Hemp 5
Iron 11
Wood 22
Swill 26
Grog 43
Fine Rum #N/A
Hemp Oil 31


yoweb's values
Sugar Cane 0.5
Hemp 0.5
Iron 1.1
Wood 2.2
Swill 2.6
Grog 4.3
Fine Rum #N/A
Hemp Oil 3.1

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Galene tells ye, "I reserve the right to not deliver prizes to you anymore in the future :P"
Galene tells ye, "You crashed me 6 times!"

Ryujin on all oceans
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Zenithar



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why are the listed tax value 10x more than actual yoweb tax values?


The sales tax is 10% of the estimated oceanwide use value.

In this case I can store it as either the sales tax, or the value estimation implied by the tax (Which is x10 the sales tax.)

I chose to store it as the estimated value implied by the tax because it tells you more at a quick glance. (And can be used as a quick comparison with the other oceanwide estimates in the sheet.)

(When the local cost is less than the tax-implied value it means that island is getting that item for less than the oceanwide average. The tax-implied value also gives you a good idea of the floor of what you can get for an item if you're willing to ship & wait.)

In production cost calculations it uses TaxValue/10.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Zenithar at Oct 1, 2018 1:01:17 PM]
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wrs1864b

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why are the listed tax value 10x more than actual yoweb tax values?


The sales tax is 10% of the estimated oceanwide use value.

Do you have anything to back up that claim? I've looked at a lot of stuff written by OOO/GH, and have found nothing that says what, exactly, the sales tax is. Also, by "use value", do you mean "use cost"? If so,whatever the game uses to calculate the sales tax includes a lot more than just that.

I've seen the sales tax uses to estimate the value of a good before, but in practice, I found it wasn't that good at that. In practice, stuff selling on the dock side market is more than 10x the sales tax rate, for consumer items, it can be even worse.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
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Zenithar



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why are the listed tax value 10x more than actual yoweb tax values?


The sales tax is 10% of the estimated oceanwide use value.

Do you have anything to back up that claim? I've looked at a lot of stuff written by OOO/GH, and have found nothing that says what, exactly, the sales tax is. Also, by "use value", do you mean "use cost"? If so,whatever the game uses to calculate the sales tax includes a lot more than just that.

I've seen the sales tax uses to estimate the value of a good before, but in practice, I found it wasn't that good at that. In practice, stuff selling on the dock side market is more than 10x the sales tax rate, for consumer items, it can be even worse.


Either from a forum post or the wiki - I certainly didn't come up with the number and distinctly recall reading, to paraphrase, "Sales tax is 10% the estimated use cost." - It's not a personal conclusion but just something I took as a known given. It's been a bit since I just dove through the wiki and forums - I'll see if I can find where I read it. I'd treat it regardless as "Anecdotal/Unsubstantiated" versus solid, seeing as I really can't tell where I picked it up from.

What I can at least say, (anecdotally, Obsidian-specific) in support of it is that NPC deliveries definitely seem to factor in approximately (10 x Sales Tax) as a factor for whether or not they supply you, which is why I have it on my sheet as a quick reference number.

I personally consider your dataset to be a better predictor of oceanwide prices with the tax value - lagging behind, if I had to put words to it. 10 x Sales Tax does actually tend to track remarkably well with your Sell/Buy values for the highest-volume commodities. (Iron and Wood have had all three estimate lines line up right on the middle of the demand curve. Everything else gets weirder IMO due to either low prices and a lack of fractions (Sugar cane, Hemp) or low volume.
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[Edit 4 times, last edit by Zenithar at Oct 1, 2018 4:10:48 PM]
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Zenithar



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Ironmonger stuff is ready to make into a shared sheet. Will update when I've got that part handled.


Like Distilling where Mugs were not included, I've not included Swords or their materials in the Ironmonger sheet. Demand is so low and especially unpredictable I can't justify adding them as features because it could give people a poor idea of profitability.

That makes the Cannonball-monger pretty simple.
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