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Sovereignty

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How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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I'd like to see swabbies capable of going into Atlantis and Haunted Seas.

I'm sure the skilled swabbies thread talks about this ad nauseam, but I didn't see any relevant discussion about payouts regarding these two SMH's, how it would be abusable, how we could preemptively stop that abuse, and just general discussion about this specific aspect of the game.

So I'd like to see discussion specifically tailored to finding a way to make taking swabbies into Lantis/HS viable.

I want this feature badly, as the only thing that's stopped me from running Atlantis or Haunted Seas is quite literally the tedious slog that is jobbing for 2 hours prior to actually doing anything.

I'm not looking to discuss if swabbies should or shouldn't be made available in this thread (The other one is way better for that), but rather to go over the pros/cons and potential abuses open to us being allowed to go on largely swabbie based trips into these two sea monster hunts.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So on that note, I figured I'd start the discussion so you forum-ers could tear my suggestions down and we might reveal some info and opinions for the dev(s) to work with going forward.


  • Suggestion 1 - During an entry in which skilled swabbies are used, skilled swabbies will take 50% of the VO chests earned from that entry, and/or 50% of the restock share of PoE from booty division.

  • Suggestion 2 - Have swabbies consume a much larger amount of Rum/Grog/Swill during all entries into HS or Atlantis, and have them suffer extreme penalties if Rum/Grog/Swill runs out.. Tie this to the number of bots to make bigger (Safer) ships even more costly, and to encourage runs to job more and more real pirates to offset this potentially large cost.

  • Suggestion 3 - Require an additional commodity that is consumed by bots exclusively when they are present on a run (Maybe fruit?).

  • Suggestion 4 - Ratchet up the difficulty of a map as ships stay inside of it longer and longer. It's already kind of present in CI. If you go to a map that has had ships running through all day you're going to have a much more interesting time going from the SZ to the island. Why not make the number of spawns increase (or make them stronger) the longer a ship remains in a map?



Thoughts?
[Jul 12, 2018 7:09:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
TheOGDaddy

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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Suggestion 1 - During an entry in which skilled swabbies are used, skilled swabbies will take 50% of the VO chests earned from that entry, and/or 50% of the restock share of PoE from booty division.


This is easily avoided by making the pay 100% Jobbers delight. Yes, you'll lose half of the VO's but all of the restocking fee will be dispersed to your small band of jobbers who can pay an entry fee to cover the lack of restock. Also, VO's don't add up to much from large ship runs, they're only really worth anything from Citadels and bots aren't very good at that.


I think that the fact that the skilled swabbies would be unable to treasure haul is enough to make it so that pay isnt outrageous, if you only take two humans and 73 swabbies, you'll only split what the two humans haul.


 
Suggestion 3 - Require an additional commodity that is consumed by bots exclusively when they are present on a run (Maybe fruit?).


I like this idea, fruit (other than limes) might actually have a use in the game. Where (which shoppe) would fruit be sold out of if not foraged? Distilleries? What if we make fruit wine in a distillery!


 
Suggestion 4 - Ratchet up the difficulty of a map as ships stay inside of it longer and longer. It's already kind of present in CI. If you go to a map that has had ships running through all day you're going to have a much more interesting time going from the SZ to the island. Why not make the number of spawns increase (or make them stronger) the longer a ship remains in a map?


Haunted seas has something like this in place already, I remember having a chat with someone who mentioned that the longer you're on the board, the more difficult your spawns!
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[Jul 12, 2018 8:14:44 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
patgangster

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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Suggestion 1 - During an entry in which skilled swabbies are used, skilled swabbies will take 50% of the VO chests earned from that entry, and/or 50% of the restock share of PoE from booty division.

[..] Also, VO's don't add up to much from large ship runs, they're only really worth anything from Citadels and bots aren't very good at that.

True for Atlantis. In HS they do, the amount of money that comes from chests in HS is crazy. (Maybe less true for VOs on low-person runs since you get less VOs/person in comparison)
 
 
Suggestion 3 - Require an additional commodity that is consumed by bots exclusively when they are present on a run (Maybe fruit?).

I like this idea, fruit (other than limes) might actually have a use in the game. Where (which shoppe) would fruit be sold out of if not foraged? Distilleries? What if we make fruit wine in a distillery!

I like this idea a lot too. Foraging might become worth doing again. Probably a better idea than just draining massive amounts of rum.
 
 
Suggestion 4 - Difficulty increase over time

Haunted seas has something like this in place already, I remember having a chat with someone who mentioned that the longer you're on the board, the more difficult your spawns!

I have personally not noticed this being true in HS. On 3-hour + runs the amount of spawns it fills up to is still the same as the amount of spawns at the start. If it was added it would create some interesting situations (you WANT your runs to go longer, especially when your jobbers are good, because more difficulty essentially means more enemies which means more money. But then the risk starts to come in)
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[Jul 13, 2018 3:28:32 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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+1

I think this would be a good move for game growth as new people can experience naving in SMH easier. Who doesn't want to try in even before they are ready.

Benefits the game dev more sunk ships on dub oceans.

Love to see this some how incorporated into Flotilla's as well.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
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[Jul 13, 2018 4:14:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kyura94

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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Suggestion 1

Symb + Pat have covered quite a bit. The only other substantial issue I have with this is the flexibility (or lack of) in the trade-off this suggestion brings. Especially with the new Swabbie Slider, will the 50% shift as well? What if jobbers hop mid-way, are they replaced by Skilled Swabbies, and hence shift the 50% once again?

 
Suggestion 2

Rum has always been rather trivial. Discussions on Suggestion 1 and/or 3 would be better.

 
Suggestion 3

+1 to the fruit idea. The idea about Distilleries making fruit rum specifically for swabbies (much like rowboats just for KH) is excellent too. i'm totally not biased

 
Suggestion 4

Spectral Frig and Elite Arch/Gorgs are the most difficult spawns*. A GrandFrig loaded with Skilled Swabbies** probably wouldn't mind an endless wave of spawns imo.

* unless Forculus makes even higher-end spawns, but that sounds messy in itself
* depending on quality
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Ryuken on Obsidian (active) and Emerald (not really)
I made an in-depth Distilling guide here, and a guns one somewhere.
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[Jul 13, 2018 4:23:00 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
patgangster

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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Especially with the new Swabbie Slider, will the 50% shift as well? What if jobbers hop mid-way, are they replaced by Skilled Swabbies, and hence shift the 50% once again?


The way I see skilled swabs being implemented is "you decide you specifically want skilled swabs while you are in port", so assuming that's the way it's happening (if it's happening): If we pick the number of 50% for max swabs, only taking half swabs should result in them taking 25%. Jobbers hopping midway should still be replaced with unskilled swabs.
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[Jul 13, 2018 5:23:13 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Strider399

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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It's been buried in the other thread, but here's my original suggestion for skilled swabbies swabbies.

TL;DR...

Sid wrote: 
Let's start first with what skilled swabbies won't do.

Skilled swabbies can not:
  • Treasure haul or forage - This encourages the voyage leader to still hire some real players.
  • Earn Lavish Lockers - Again, this encourages the voyage leader to still hire actual players.
  • Block a player from using a station if a player wants to take it over.
  • Exceed the number of stations on the vessel. On a War Frig you can only hire at most 54 swabbies.
  • Be used to defend in Atlantis or Haunted Seas. They WILL participate in ship-wide fights. (citadels, graveyards, pillage battles). This makes it so you are still required to take real players to help defend.
  • Contribute to blockade influence calculations. This means you will still need real players to have flag influence.

Skilled swabbies can:
  • Puzzle. Duh.
  • Contribute to a pillage ramp.
  • Take a cut of the total booty, including chests and lockers. This helps keep the payouts balanced and encourages hiring more real players if you're able to. Every real player can contribute to chests and lockers; swabbies will not.
  • Contribute to might ring calculations for pillages.
  • Be jobbed on any type of voyage including blockades. For blockades I could foresee a limitation of requiring at least as many real-players as swabbies to avoid folks sending in swabbie-only vessels just for the extra firepower.

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[Jul 13, 2018 12:08:29 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sovereignty

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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I guess in an attempt to elaborate I could delve a bit further into the details as I see them behind the suggestions I made.


  • Suggestion 1 - This suggestion for bots to "take" a cut of the VO and/or Restock cut would ideally be implemented on the voyage configuration screen.

    As Symbiotic indirectly pointed out this suggestion has some abuse potential from the get go, a crew could change their payout structure to game the system on restock or VO. Does restock % adjust VO share?

    This could be remedied through taking a split from the top, but of course that would mean jobbers joining a swabbie staffed run would now be paying for the privilege as well.


    Another solution could be to require a set amount of PoE to be deposited into the hold of the vessel prior to setting sail. Similar to how we currently pay swabbies to move boats, this PoE would be taken upon setting sail, and at set intervals the navver would be expected to add the same amount to continue to receive production from the swabbies.

    This could add another form of PoE sink to the ocean which is never a bad thing, and potentially allow for easier adjustments going forward.


  • Suggestion 3 - Either way this would work, a new ship supply commodity would be pretty exciting to say the least. I'm not really too keen on making yet another high value low cost commodity that Distilleries can produce, but thematically it'd make a lot of sense, and it's high time Y!PP had a wine trade.

  • Suggestion 4 - To clarify on my suggestion for increasing difficulty; I see the current incarnation of Atlantis and HS as relatively easy provided you know what you're doing and don't get horribly unlucky.

    I don't expect the AI to get 'harder' as that would just mean we'd need time to figure out their new play-style and adjust accordingly. Rather I expect the number and type of spawns in a particular zone to increase with time spent inside the map as well as maybe a repair % increase for enemy ships making them harder to kill.

    It'd be exciting to try and top your previous record of time spent in without sinking, the added spawns would make surviving longer more profitable, and would potentially increase player sinks.

    That being said I do see some problems with this suggestion too. How do we make it so some poor sap doesn't enter a map that has been previously occupied for 4 hours and now they're facing a huge number of extremely strong spawns all over the place?





It should be noted also, that my suggestions are all still assuming we get no real changes to the swabbies aside from making them capable of going into Atlantis/HS, as I still think that discussion is better suited for the actual skilled swabbie thread.
[Jul 13, 2018 4:26:59 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
patgangster

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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Does restock % adjust VO share?

It does not.

 
This could be remedied through taking a split from the top, but of course that would mean jobbers joining a swabbie staffed run would now be paying for the privilege as well.

This already happens (on pillage battles, at least).


 
Another solution could be to require a set amount of PoE to be deposited into the hold of the vessel prior to setting sail. Similar to how we currently pay swabbies to move boats, this PoE would be taken upon setting sail, and at set intervals the navver would be expected to add the same amount to continue to receive production from the swabbies.

This could add another form of PoE sink to the ocean which is never a bad thing, and potentially allow for easier adjustments going forward.

Sounds ok to me, if the person running earning too much is indeed a problem, the amount to be paid can be adjusted accordingly.


 
Suggestion 3 - Either way this would work, a new ship supply commodity would be pretty exciting to say the least. I'm not really too keen on making yet another high value low cost commodity that Distilleries can produce, but thematically it'd make a lot of sense, and it's high time Y!PP had a wine trade.

I'm not too big on adding another thing to distilling as well - but that is where this idea fits. I like the fruit idea very much to increase profitability of foraging.

 
Suggestion 4 - To clarify on my suggestion for increasing difficulty; I see the current incarnation of Atlantis and HS as relatively easy provided you know what you're doing and don't get horribly unlucky.

I don't really agree. If you get to take a WF in, sure. a Xebec-citrun in Atlantis is also somewhat hard to do badly on once you know your things, but on anything smaller than those you're at pretty big risk in both - ghost frigs in HS are nasty and so are gorgs(/arches).

 
I don't expect the AI to get 'harder' as that would just mean we'd need time to figure out their new play-style and adjust accordingly. Rather I expect the number and type of spawns in a particular zone to increase with time spent inside the map as well as maybe a repair % increase for enemy ships making them harder to kill.

It'd be exciting to try and top your previous record of time spent in without sinking, the added spawns would make surviving longer more profitable, and would potentially increase player sinks.

Fully agree on this. Maybe not the repair %, could result in some monsters (especially the archelon in atlantis) becoming actually unkillable at some point.

 
That being said I do see some problems with this suggestion too. How do we make it so some poor sap doesn't enter a map that has been previously occupied for 4 hours and now they're facing a huge number of extremely strong spawns all over the place?

Maps reset in about 15-30 minutes at the moment (I'm not sure which), it COULD be adjusted to just reset instantly upon exiting, then they would just have to make sure not to enter while someone else is still in.
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[Jul 13, 2018 4:46:07 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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Regarding the fruit (drink) this not only adds a great new use for fruit but it eliminates/lowers the poe fountain as minimal as it it.

Fruit would gain a free market price.

If it was Basic labor heavy/exclusively it may encourage more people to puzzle at lower levels of distilling correcting helping the curve issues with that puzzle.

It would be yet another update to the game play that creates more options even if pirates drank it.
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[Jul 13, 2018 5:34:06 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
xelto

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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Suggestion 3 - Either way this would work, a new ship supply commodity would be pretty exciting to say the least. I'm not really too keen on making yet another high value low cost commodity that Distilleries can produce, but thematically it'd make a lot of sense, and it's high time Y!PP had a wine trade.

I'm not too big on adding another thing to distilling as well - but that is where this idea fits. I like the fruit idea very much to increase profitability of foraging.

I always thought that fine rum ought to have fruit in its recipe, and swill shouldn't. But OOO/GH has always seemed to be adamantly against changing any existing recipes, even if they made perfect sense (like adding ink to the recipes for books).

Now, here's a question that's going to seem frivolous, but is actually serious: would adding fruit to the recipe for rum be able to sink enough fruit, or would we need to keep the fruit sales to markets up?

(I've wanted to have smuggling to the mainland for a while now. That was my solution for the mysterious fruit that does nothing, along with a few other things.)
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by xelto at Jul 13, 2018 7:28:22 PM]
[Jul 13, 2018 6:33:45 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
hidemyhoney

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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I am a big supporter of playing your own way, which the recent updates with swabbies is going in that direction which is what the game needs, with a low playerbase that can play however they wish. Every aspect in the game is solo-able except Flotillas, SMHs excluding KH (or CI if your really good :P)

So the Fruit rum, would only be consumed by skilled swabbies? (they also can't token either) or would you need Fine Rum as well? I do like the idea of Fruit rum, since I do love SMHs, but the painful part is getting a ship/stock then having to wait 2-4 hours and get nothing from it by waiting (most people will start jobbing when its 55/75 or 35/45). Sure there is multitasking in the game, but it would be very nice that you can, job only around 10-20 people on a GF in lantis, or job around 5-10 people in HS to haul/SF.

The only major issue with all of this, is it will be very difficult to balance out Lantis, especially if you get a elite arch drop (which gives around 10 boarders) and then be screwed by only jobbing 10ish people when you can easily have around 30 boarders. With HS, is much more easier, as long as you have a safe spot on the map and good spawns its easy with just 7-10 jobbers as long as you don't lose frays. So therefore I would make swabbies stronger in SF, so that they can win in lantis 12v5 9v4 7v3 5v2 3v1 etcetc. For HS can be like 9v5 8v4 6v3 4v2 2v1 for an MAA to organise skilled swabbies vs boarders. As for citadels maybe they may be easier to win, but you only get a certain amount of ACs for players aboard, otherwise people can do GF cits and win somehow and exploit it. For graveyards same formula for hauling.

For flotillas, which I'm happy how they've added trophies and etc. I don't think you would need skilled swabbies anyway. Just make sure you nav well, and don't get too much damage and be able to get enough swabbies to fill all stations. Tokening for all 3 activities would only be by actual players.
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Stan is a true hero.

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Remove dead oceans, all those wasted new players :/
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by hidemyhoney at Jul 13, 2018 7:48:47 PM]
[Jul 13, 2018 7:45:50 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sovereignty

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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Maps reset in about 15-30 minutes at the moment (I'm not sure which), it COULD be adjusted to just reset instantly upon exiting, then they would just have to make sure not to enter while someone else is still in.


I'm not sure the solution would be resetting the map on exit, but maybe even just a shorter length of time empty could do? 5 minutes instead of 15-30 for example?

I don't know that this even needs a change honestly, if the current time to reset is 15 minutes that's not even so bad (Though 30 would be too long in my opinion).



 
So the Fruit rum, would only be consumed by skilled swabbies? (they also can't token either) or would you need Fine Rum as well? I do like the idea of Fruit rum, since I do love SMHs, but the painful part is getting a ship/stock then having to wait 2-4 hours and get nothing from it by waiting (most people will start jobbing when its 55/75 or 35/45). Sure there is multitasking in the game, but it would be very nice that you can, job only around 10-20 people on a GF in lantis, or job around 5-10 people in HS to haul/SF.


I would say yes, the fruit rum/wine/fruit whatever would be consumed only by swabbies, and ideally proportionate to the amount of them on board in a manner similar to how rum works for pirates.

I envision it as now to run a swabbie-filled SMH you'd need to stock rum, cannonballs and the new commodity. Thus your normal pirates and self consume the rum, while the swabbies consume the wine (Or whatever resource we're using in this fashion).


 
*snip* it will be very difficult to balance out Lantis *snip*


I'm always a proponent of games doing a 'try and see' method of game play balances and changes. Still if I'm being honest I do think addressing this in some manner prior would be a solid thing to do.

While it wouldn't be impossible per se to still run Atlantis even without swabbies being able to defend, there is very well the possibility it could be too hard or would require you to seek out enough high skill SFers to manage it. The latter would obviously conflict with the whole "play your own way" style that most everyone seems to be supportive of.

Some solutions off the top of my head to that issue that wouldn't involve swabbie changes in no particular order:


  • 1 - Add a button to start a fray of x size once a certain number of boarders is reached. IE If 25 boarders are on the ship the MAA may select to fight either 10, or begin the fray as normal with all of the boarders. However if there is a number below that threshold, the MAA would start a fray as normal wherein all boarders are pulled in.

  • 2 - Adjust drop rates to be based on # of pirates on the ship.

  • 3 - Add a remove boarders token similar to CI, that can be used to remove x number of boarders.



All of those assuming the boarders are actually a problem that couldn't be rectified through nav strategy of course.
[Jul 13, 2018 10:49:09 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
hidemyhoney

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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I'm always a proponent of games doing a 'try and see' method of game play balances and changes. Still if I'm being honest I do think addressing this in some manner prior would be a solid thing to do.


Most defiantly. I feel skilled swabbies should deliver between good-excellent.

 
While it wouldn't be impossible per se to still run Atlantis even without swabbies being able to defend, there is very well the possibility it could be too hard or would require you to seek out enough high skill SFers to manage it. The latter would obviously conflict with the whole "play your own way" style that most everyone seems to be supportive of.


I think even with same odds they should win 50% of the time, if skilled swabbies are x2 more than around 90% of the time.

 
Some solutions off the top of my head to that issue that wouldn't involve swabbie changes in no particular order:


1 - Add a button to start a fray of x size once a certain number of boarders is reached. IE If 25 boarders are on the ship the MAA may select to fight either 10, or begin the fray as normal with all of the boarders. However if there is a number below that threshold, the MAA would start a fray as normal wherein all boarders are pulled in.

2 - Adjust drop rates to be based on # of pirates on the ship.

3 - Add a remove boarders token similar to CI, that can be used to remove x number of boarders.


1. I think original MAA duty should still apply, that involve skilled swabbies as well.

2. Skilled swabbies Auto-defend, can take 1v1s if MAA wants them too, skilled swabbies under a different colour so its simple to contrast swabbie and a pirate (since sometimes can accidently pull the wrong people).

3. Yes, maybe the silver token has an ability to get rid off up to 20 boarders, while gold token can get rid of up to 60? If in real danger.
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Stan is a true hero.

Big supporter of Crafting puzzles being freed!

Remove dead oceans, all those wasted new players :/
[Jul 14, 2018 1:39:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Robyns090

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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I think before you even discuss the mechanics of this, and for it to be viable you’d need skilled swabbies, even just basic skilled swabbies. But before they add skilled swabbies for SMH they need to add it in pillies, so this might be a long way off.
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[Jul 15, 2018 1:55:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
hidemyhoney

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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I think before you even discuss the mechanics of this, and for it to be viable you?d need skilled swabbies, even just basic skilled swabbies. But before they add skilled swabbies for SMH they need to add it in pillies, so this might be a long way off.


Skilled swabbies will only be required for SMHs, there not really needed in pillages, since thats mostly been taken care of.
If you have leavers in a SMH then replace them with normal swabbies. This thread is just a way of making SMHs more runnable and more active, since right now they are never run on Meridian or Cerulean (only if their playerbase organises a time and date), then Emerald mostly CIs/KHs and Obsidian pretty much the same where it suffers its SMH rotation, and HS/Lantis mostly happen at peak times.
Ever since 2007 SMHs have been an inaugural part of puzzle pirates, since we have made a positive direction with swabbies solving the merching/pillaging of ships, we can take it a step forward, with skilled swabbies which can help out in SMHs, preventing the negatives of SMHs and flotillas.
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Stan is a true hero.

Big supporter of Crafting puzzles being freed!

Remove dead oceans, all those wasted new players :/
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Filthyjake

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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Skilled swabbies will only be required for SMHs, there not really needed in pillages, since thats mostly been taken care of.


No it has't a bunch of useless botts added to pillages is equivalent to adding the same UNskilled swabies for SMH, no on would be happy with that.

take a sloop out max swabies, then do the navigate with with the navy mission and the difference is huge.
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[Jul 15, 2018 4:28:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
joshuawhelan

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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The unrealistic expectation on jobbers to sit and puzzle for 4 hours straight is one of the main reasons I seldom go on big ship SMHs. If skilled swabbies could somehow replace leavers, (i.e they get similar puzzle standings to the pirates they replace) I feel it would solve a lot of problems.

While the mechanical repetition for 3+ hours may satisfy the bnavver's autistic traits, the expectation that jobbers would be prepared to do the same is a big killer for big-ship SMHs.

A big draw for pillages is that you can just leave when you're no longer having fun doing the same 5 available puzzles, be replaced and there's no longer a problem. SMHs need some mechanic to address this and skilled swabbies replacing leavers could be that solution.
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[Jul 15, 2018 9:29:33 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jcmorgan6

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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If skilled swabbies could somehow replace leavers, (i.e they get similar puzzle standings to the pirates they replace) I feel it would solve a lot of problems

Something like that would be way too easy to abuse.
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[Jul 15, 2018 10:31:42 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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A big draw for pillages is that you can just leave when you're no longer having fun doing the same 5 available puzzles, be replaced and there's no longer a problem. SMHs need some mechanic to address this and skilled swabbies replacing leavers could be that solution.

Someone once suggested that it was CRITICAL that jobbers could be jobbed into a SMH, maybe during the 15min breaks. That not allowing such things really really hurts the game.

Things like that would be much better than supplying NPCs, especially skilled ones.

It seems to me that the developers lost touch with the game sometime before flotillas/atlantis and have never really regained it.
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Filthyjake

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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Making it so the SMH can go even longer is going to kill them off all together. 1/2 the fun is seeing the divi what did I earn? Did any one get lucky? ect... If the Naver can stay for 6-8 hours they will its not that hard and who hasn't seen team naving, the puzzle is way less difficult to do for hours on end. (Which is why many love KH).

I would love to see a time limit on them if they make it so you can rehire at 15 minute breaks.

JMHO
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[Jul 15, 2018 11:49:39 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sovereignty

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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I think before you even discuss the mechanics of this, and for it to be viable you?d need skilled swabbies, even just basic skilled swabbies. But before they add skilled swabbies for SMH they need to add it in pillies, so this might be a long way off.


I respectfully disagree with this assertion.

If tomorrow it was announced that the skill-less swabbies we currently have on our pillages were suddenly capable of going into Atlantis or Haunted Seas, I would immediately take them in and test them out while being ecstatic about it.

Do I think it would be easy? No. Do I think it would be doable? Absolutely.

There is a reason we haven't gotten swabbies to fill our boats to go into the big SMH maps, and it's extremely unlikely it's because the powers-that-be think it's not viable with the current tools available to us.

Rather, I think it's more likely that Atlantis and Haunted Seas simply aren't viewed as balanced with regards to players suddenly being able to take in full GF's at the drop of a hat and partake in runs for hours upon hours.

I understand (And even agree) with the criticism that for a jobber the bigger SMH's aren't usually enjoyable experiences, but I truly don't think this is the thread to discuss that.


I made a separate thread for balancing Atlantis/HS, as I felt the scope of the suggestions/discussion I put forward covered a different-enough subject as compared to the 'skilled' aspect of the other thread.

I think any discussions pertaining to changes to the skill or capability of swabbies are much better suited for that thread, while this one should be kept to balance discussions and how we make swabbies work within these two forms of content.




In the spirit of that, I have a general question to ask related to this as I'm looking to try and think about this problem from another angle; What do YOU think is the reason that we weren't already given the current swabbies to help fill ships for Atlantis or HS?
[Jul 15, 2018 12:52:06 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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In the spirit of that, I have a general question to ask related to this as I'm looking to try and think about this problem from another angle; What do YOU think is the reason that we weren't already given the current swabbies to help fill ships for Atlantis or HS?


As you said people would take GF in even a week GF could last for a fair bit with a few players to T-hall and care for immediate needs
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[Jul 15, 2018 1:09:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Robyns090

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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Skilled swabbies will only be required for SMHs, there not really needed in pillages, since thats mostly been taken care of.


For a solo sloop pilly a distinguished or respected skilled swabbie would be nice as my bnav has gone down from master to distinguished due to lack of shots loaded per turn, and my inability to bnav and gun at the same time.
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[Jul 15, 2018 3:45:57 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Robyns090

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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In the spirit of that, I have a general question to ask related to this as I'm looking to try and think about this problem from another angle; What do YOU think is the reason that we weren't already given the current swabbies to help fill ships for Atlantis or HS?


Answer is rather obvious (at least to me), the game would much rather encourage a larger player base to exist, so more people have to play to do WF + Atlantis/HS, rather than just accepting a lack of players and giving us swabbies to replace real players.

Also I think biggest problem for HS/Atlantis swabbie ships would be the SFing as swabbies do have the tendency to fail just randomly.
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hidemyhoney

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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In the spirit of that, I have a general question to ask related to this as I'm looking to try and think about this problem from another angle; What do YOU think is the reason that we weren't already given the current swabbies to help fill ships for Atlantis or HS?


Answer is rather obvious (at least to me), the game would much rather encourage a larger player base to exist, so more people have to play to do WF + Atlantis/HS, rather than just accepting a lack of players and giving us swabbies to replace real players.

Also I think biggest problem for HS/Atlantis swabbie ships would be the SFing as swabbies do have the tendency to fail just randomly.


Solution for the frays: Of course we must accept to what has happened with the game in the past 15 years to what we have right now. Skilled swabbies should be good enough to win a 1v1 50% (of the time), and 2v1 75% of the time, 3v1 95% of the time in Lantis. Would love to see SMHs run at all times, even bigger voyages, might fix the Seahorse issue on Obsidian, more activity and more of a purpose to log on. For HS boarders 1v1 60%, 2v1 85%, 3v1 97.5% etc for ratios of boarders, since HS is an easier SMH than Lantis, hence the higher chance of victory for swabbies in frays.

(Edits: Because I keep leaving things out)
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by hidemyhoney at Jul 16, 2018 2:10:39 AM]
[Jul 16, 2018 2:06:34 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sovereignty

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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Obligatory bump post, but at least with some added perspective on a point I think is under-discussed in this topic.

Assuming tomorrow swabbies are enabled to go into HS or Atlantis, would it even be doable as they currently exist?

If the answer is no, why aren't we allowed to have them enabled to experiment and play with them anyway?

If you took in 15 people on a GF to treasure haul, and defend you'd lose 15 bots with the current incarnation of swabbies, making the consistent fines even more of a liability in a venue that requires copious amounts of shooting and the occasional burst of moves to keep you from sinking.



I have to wonder if with the large spike in stock prices due to the huge demand for greedy bashing pillies, if a low-staff large SMH run would even yield enough PoE/hr to truly be game breaking if it were added right now.
[Jul 26, 2018 1:51:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
hidemyhoney

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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Obligatory bump post, but at least with some added perspective on a point I think is under-discussed in this topic.

Assuming tomorrow swabbies are enabled to go into HS or Atlantis, would it even be doable as they currently exist?


Depends if the Dev(s) or OMs say their skilled or not

 
If the answer is no, why aren't we allowed to have them enabled to experiment and play with them anyway?


I'm sure the Dev(s) use them to test SMHs functionality, hopefully they get some testing on Ice, haven't seen any major updates since the increased swabbies on pillaging.

 
I have to wonder if with the large spike in stock prices due to the huge demand for greedy bashing pillies, if a low-staff large SMH run would even yield enough PoE/hr to truly be game breaking if it were added right now.


The positive is, nice to see people pillaging more its gud, everyone bashes everyone its pretty common in the game now. As said with the amount of players needs caps, for example if you entered a GY and won with 2-3 pirates, haul time should only be around 2-3 mins, if you win a citadel you should only win 6-7 AC due to pirates actually aboard. Same with the greedies, 3 greedy spawn per pirate sounds fair to me. Hopefully they fix this greedy problem (b.c people like to be greedy.... pun), then work on how to make SMHs more appealing or actually loadable so others can run them (I would actually come back to the game for that reason and do a friglantis).
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Stan is a true hero.

Big supporter of Crafting puzzles being freed!

Remove dead oceans, all those wasted new players :/
[Jul 26, 2018 6:26:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sovereignty

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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hidemyhoney wrote: 

As said with the amount of players needs caps, for example if you entered a GY and won with 2-3 pirates, haul time should only be around 2-3 mins, if you win a citadel you should only win 6-7 AC due to pirates actually aboard.


I'm a bit curious about this specifically.

Are the chest rewards from winning Cits tied to player numbers or to ship size?

My experience has led me to believe it's tied to ship size, but I'll be honest in stating I've never gone in with the bare minimum to really test it.

If the chest numbers are tied to player numbers than the issue isn't really one in my opinion.

As for hauling and the like, I think if you're already going in with a skeleton crew supplanted by swabbies, you're probably going to be hauling substantially less than expected, so would that even need a change really?
[Jul 26, 2018 2:35:12 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
hidemyhoney

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Re: How to balance Atlantis and Haunted Seas with swabbies in mind Reply to this Post
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I'm a bit curious about this specifically.

Are the chest rewards from winning Cits tied to player numbers or to ship size?


Yup, just an idea for the future if people do exploit citadels with skilled swabbies.

 
As for hauling and the like, I think if you're already going in with a skeleton crew supplanted by swabbies, you're probably going to be hauling substantially less than expected, so would that even need a change really


Agreed.
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Stan is a true hero.

Big supporter of Crafting puzzles being freed!

Remove dead oceans, all those wasted new players :/
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