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Zebacha

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Too many swabbies! Reply to this Post
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So I am sat here writing this whilst I am about to solo a Grand Frig because, since the update (July 2018), I now have a ludicrous amount of swabbies. So many, in fact, that I am having to fire loads of them before setting sail so that my rum doesn't get drunk for no reason.

I can't help thinking that I should not be able to sail a Grand Frig without at least a dozen jobbers, if not more. Now that I am able to do this, what is the point of;

1) The trade button on the vessel configuration tab - why hire people when I can use bots for free?
2) Jobbing - All I realistically now need is a gunner (don't even need that on a GF or WF) and I can go and do a pillage without the need for anyone else. Equally, why would I want to go and job for someone else when I can do things, including flotillas and the like, on my own.
3) Cutters, merchant brigs and merchant galleons - These ships were traditionally used to move stock, with the difficulty of soloing them increasing with the size of the ship. The Grand Frig has a significantly larger hold than any of them and can easily be soloed now. What is the point in these ships anymore?


PLEASE change it! Here are a few thoughts I have had (I write them as solutions to their corresponding problem above);

1) Bots cost poe equivalent to (10x?) the poe that the navy would pay, making it cheaper to hire humans. If a bot is costing you 60 poe per LP to get a fine, you could easily pay that to a jobber and get a better result, or pay less for a fine.
2) Make ships not set to "evade" be limited to the same number of swabbies as humans. Therefore you would realistically need 2 jobbers and yourself to have a hope of running a sloop pillage and 8-10 humans aboard for a War Brig, for example.
3) In addition to number 2, ships set to evade should be set to their pre-update levels, or even lower. It still seems silly that I can solo a Merchant Galleon on my own without help. Drop a swabby from the ship and I immediately need the help of a human.

Number 2 and 3 work well as a package and number 1 could also have a use.

Summary, I see no value to the game from having so many swabbies on a ship. It will make people less likely to engage with other and has also, in an instant, made redundant a number of classes of ship. Please fix it!
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U-G-L-Y you ain't got no alibi you ugly!
[Jul 4, 2018 6:52:51 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kyura94

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Re: Too many swabbies! Reply to this Post
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Can't say I didn't see this coming - I was against the swabbie buff before it happened. These aren't the right questions to fight for a fix I'm afraid.

Zebacha wrote: 
1) The trade button on the vessel configuration tab - why hire people when I can use bots for free?
2) Jobbing - All I realistically now need is a gunner (don't even need that on a GF or WF) and I can go and do a pillage without the need for anyone else. Equally, why would I want to go and job for someone else when I can do things, including flotillas and the like, on my own.
3) Cutters, merchant brigs and merchant galleons - These ships were traditionally used to move stock, with the difficulty of soloing them increasing with the size of the ship. The Grand Frig has a significantly larger hold than any of them and can easily be soloed now. What is the point in these ships anymore?


1) You said it yourself, they cost rum. The same rum which could produce more moves/guns when the time comes.

2) You'll find that the move generation and repair rates in battle aren't impressive with an army of Fines. Bearable but nothing compared to actual puzzling pirates. Also, might rings effects on spawns.

3) Well they're cheaper. And if you're on Obsidian, the luxury of having a Shipyard work on your larger ships isn't something to take lightly. In contrast, you can make your own Cutter in your stall. Smaller ships also have faster moving speeds outside of battle if I'm not mistaken.
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Ryuken on Obsidian (active) and Emerald (not really)
I made an in-depth Distilling guide here, and a guns one somewhere.
I gave Obsidian their Owls c:
[Jul 4, 2018 7:18:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Swabie Update Reply to this Post
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There is another thread regarding this but its old and not really just about the update so I think this is a good idea to start this one on the update out from the older discussion regarding swabbed being skilled.

Many have requested the ability to get out of the dock quicker and not be forced to fight for jobbers with a ever shrinking player base. While I think this update was an improvement it can use some tweaking over all I disagree with you and feel that it is an improvement to the game.

Pre update Rarely did you see people hiring for trade anyway. So while it will be even more rare I don't see it as an issue, most crews may have moved stock ect with out hiring under trade, but thinking of new players who don't have connections this is a great improvement.

 
All I need is a gunner
, (have you taken out a pillage) 30 bots on a WB still don't team and are not good in frays. Take it out and give it a spin, max -0 still a crap shoot on who wins and if they out number you best of luck.

 
3) Cutters, merchant brigs and merchant galleons - These ships were traditionally used to move stock, with the difficulty of soloing them increasing with the size of the ship. The Grand Frig has a significantly larger hold than any of them and can easily be soloed now. What is the point in these ships anymore
Depending on what your doing is the size of the ship, one would use unless you want to pay for the rum for a GF to move a cutters worth of goods. There are a wide variety of ships, most are irreverent we could get away with sloops, War Brigs and a Merchant Brig for stock moves but whats the fun of that. Every one has there preference, the new War Gallon has zero use for me and seems like a big weakling, it hits hard but can't take a punch. To each their own. I am happy to move stock solo with a MG now, I did a GF run they are still very slow. I didn't time it but I could easily do multiple MB runs in the same time. It was nice to move over 3k wood in one move.

TLDR: Love the new swabie numbers, would like to see some tweaking.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
Filthyjake6145 (discord)

Want Kade Support post a intent....

Who would have ever thought there would be a more worthless familiar then the Krackling's? But now we have owls that are farm raised.
[Jul 4, 2018 7:25:33 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Zebacha

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Re: Too many swabbies! Reply to this Post
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1) You said it yourself, they cost rum. The same rum which could produce more moves/guns when the time comes.

2) You'll find that the move generation and repair rates in battle aren't impressive with an army of Fines. Bearable but nothing compared to actual puzzling pirates. Also, might rings effects on spawns.

3) Well they're cheaper. And if you're on Obsidian, the luxury of having a Shipyard work on your larger ships isn't something to take lightly. In contrast, you can make your own Cutter in your stall. Smaller ships also have faster moving speeds outside of battle if I'm not mistaken.


1) I don't get engaged when soloing stock, or at least very very rarely, a couple of times a year!

2) I agree that it wouldn't be an ideal pillage, but it would be possible. There is no guarantee that a hired jobber will do any better than a bot in any case.

3) Obsidian is, at present, a failed experiment. More people play on oceans where access to a shipyard is not problematic. I should point out that this post was intended for YPP Classic, not Dark Seas, so the arguments don't take obsidian into account.

 
Many have requested the ability to get out of the dock quicker and not be forced to fight for jobbers with a ever shrinking player base. While I think this update was an improvement it can use some tweaking over all I disagree with you and feel that it is an improvement to the game.

Pre update Rarely did you see people hiring for trade anyway. So while it will be even more rare I don't see it as an issue, most crews may have moved stock ect with out hiring under trade, but thinking of new players who don't have connections this is a great improvement.


All I need is a gunner
, (have you taken out a pillage) 30 bots on a WB still don't team and are not good in frays. Take it out and give it a spin, max -0 still a crap shoot on who wins and if they out number you best of luck.


3) Cutters, merchant brigs and merchant galleons - These ships were traditionally used to move stock, with the difficulty of soloing them increasing with the size of the ship. The Grand Frig has a significantly larger hold than any of them and can easily be soloed now. What is the point in these ships anymore
Depending on what your doing is the size of the ship, one would use unless you want to pay for the rum for a GF to move a cutters worth of goods. There are a wide variety of ships, most are irreverent we could get away with sloops, War Brigs and a Merchant Brig for stock moves but whats the fun of that. Every one has there preference, the new War Gallon has zero use for me and seems like a big weakling, it hits hard but can't take a punch. To each their own. I am happy to move stock solo with a MG now, I did a GF run they are still very slow. I didn't time it but I could easily do multiple MB runs in the same time. It was nice to move over 3k wood in one move.

TLDR: Love the new swabie numbers, would like to see some tweaking.


The point of the game is not so that everyone can run their own pillages. The point is that people cooperate to make a success of something. If people are busy fighting over jobbers that is because too many people are deciding to run a pillage rather than job for one. If, instead of starting a new pillage, people jobbed for one that is already happening, it would fix this issue. It isn't a gameplay issue it is a people issue. A tax on running a pillage, where the more pillages that were out as a proportion of the total players online, could definitely help this issue in a much more beneficial way that letting everyone go and do their own thing.

OK, I see the value of cutters and MBs for some things, but MGs are used to transport bulk, why not just use a GF? They travel at the same speed but a GF has a much bigger capacity, thus saving time and allowing you to go and join a pillage!

Fundamentally this update has significantly undermined the ethos of collaborative gaming that this game was designed around.
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U-G-L-Y you ain't got no alibi you ugly!
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Zebacha at Jul 4, 2018 7:43:52 AM]
[Jul 4, 2018 7:42:27 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: Too many swabbies! Reply to this Post
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Fundamentally this update has significantly undermined the ethos of collaborative gaming that this game was designed around.




How do you fix the fact that there are no to few players left on some oceans?
-providing bots to fix this helps.

The game design has changed over time, and the number of players have also. I wasn't around for the beginning but i am sure all the ships didn't exist and there were not nearly the same number of smh. So Players want to do what they want this provides options.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
Filthyjake6145 (discord)

Want Kade Support post a intent....

Who would have ever thought there would be a more worthless familiar then the Krackling's? But now we have owls that are farm raised.
[Jul 4, 2018 7:58:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Zebacha

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Re: Too many swabbies! Reply to this Post
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Fundamentally this update has significantly undermined the ethos of collaborative gaming that this game was designed around.




How do you fix the fact that there are no to few players left on some oceans?
-providing bots to fix this helps.

The game design has changed over time, and the number of players have also. I wasn't around for the beginning but i am sure all the ships didn't exist and there were not nearly the same number of smh. So Players want to do what they want this provides options.


I have seen you advocate for a new ocean on other threads! The solution is to delete oceans. If there are too few players (in your opinion) it would be better to have everyone in 1 place rather than spread out. The more oceans you have, the less people you have on each.

Secondly, giving people an incentive to work together is far better than giving people the option not to. Getting rid of parlor games entirely would be a great start. There are many reasons why the population numbers have declined in recent years but the fact that people sit at parlor game tables 'puzzling' on their own has always been a problem.

Like I said, this game was founded on the principle that people would have to collaborate to have success. Any change that detracts from that is a bad change and will add to the list of reasons why people will leave the game.

In addition, natural decay can only be combatted by recruitment of fresh players. People die, get ill, get busy jobs etc etc, there is a huge need to replace this loss but the game has not advertised much since it left Miniclip, which is where a large number of players discovered the game.

In essence, give people a reason to work together OR force people to work together. Both will yield beneficial results. Give people the option not to work together and, as the 200k poker tables show you, people will take that option!

NB What your chart fails to show is that, prior to the ocean mergers where Emerald and Meridian were formed, and prior to the creation of Malachite (where it all started going downhill), server populations regularly maxed out at 2000 people online. The introduction of Malachite worked well for a short time but then population wouldn't get above 300 at peak times. Sage and Viridian were always the biggest oceans. The merger very quickly killed off the Viridian players and they move to Emerald, where the player base was higher.
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U-G-L-Y you ain't got no alibi you ugly!
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Zebacha at Jul 4, 2018 8:20:37 AM]
[Jul 4, 2018 8:13:40 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: Too many swabbies! Reply to this Post
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I have seen you advocate for a new ocean on other threads! The solution is to delete oceans. If there are too few players (in your opinion) it would be better to have everyone in 1 place rather than spread out. The more oceans you have, the less people you have on each.


Wrong I said it was a horrible Idea to split the player base.
Here
 
 
 
It'd be great to have swabbies that were more effective the deader your ocean is.
In general it would only benefit the game, so tired of not being able to run things because I can get a good gunner or sailor rarely both at the same time. I don't understand why this wouldn't be a priory if the population goes over 1k again maybe we can dial it back but if you don't have a click you may as well just poker.

Starting to think the new ocean may have just killed the game, not enough people on any of the oceans to make it as good as it was when the release came out. Some people left Emerald the last thing the game needed was to split the small player base.


I also said they should kill off Existing Oceans when the new ocean came out Here
 
If Gray Haven really wants to see Puzzle Pirates live they will stop splitting their player base that is two small already. The are committing business suicide by allowing two products that are the same to compete with each other. Pick an ocean kill the others off and let the game work. It isn't any fun with out players. When their are kades the oceans with the best kade wins the others go dead. Wait till Obsidian starts having kades and watch Emerald have flag sit wins. It makes no difference to me which ocean lives which die off but one is all their should be and it would likely see a steady 300 players. If the business plan is to let the ocean's die off a slow death by not offering new content well that is more harmful then flipping the switch killing the chosen oceans. No mergers no transfers its just over. It should have been done when they took over the game, create the new ocean and destroy the others.


 
Secondly, giving people an incentive to work together is far better than giving people the option not to. Getting rid of parlor games entirely would be a great start. There are many reasons why the population numbers have declined in recent years but the fact that people sit at parlor game tables 'puzzling' on their own has always been a problem.


How is forcing me to do something I don't want to going to draw people to the game, perhaps I want to SF or Rumble or Poker because that is what I want to do, that is why this game is amazing it has so many things to do, run a business, be a dock tart, drive a ship, work on a ship.

 
NB What your chart fails to show is that, prior to the ocean mergers where Emerald and Meridian were formed, and prior to the creation of Malachite (where it all started going downhill), server populations regularly maxed out at 2000 people online. The introduction of Malachite worked well for a short time but then population wouldn't get above 300 at peak times. Sage and Viridian were always the biggest oceans. The merger very quickly killed off the Viridian players and they move to Emerald, where the player base was higher.


Way before my time but odd the same thing is happening think they would have learned, and not added another option, now back to the original question, how to fix it? Forcing me to do something will not work when there are so many other choices out there. I just found a puzzle close to carpentry on my phone its a lot of fun. Keeping the game working by allowing swabies to fill in where players won't will maybe allow the game to see growth, though I doubt it. If they made them more skilled and allowed for the solo ships to be reasonable and fun (like the navy mission) I think the game would take off again.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
Filthyjake6145 (discord)

Want Kade Support post a intent....

Who would have ever thought there would be a more worthless familiar then the Krackling's? But now we have owls that are farm raised.
[Jul 4, 2018 9:23:22 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Zebacha

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Re: Too many swabbies! Reply to this Post
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Interesting, on a "How to save the game" thread you wrote
"So If they really want to succeed a new ocean (again) launched on as many platforms as possible would be great..." which sounds suspiciously like you are advocating a new ocean. If the new platforms was your point then there is no need for a new ocean to accomplish that.

You say you like the puzzles and yet you also say you want to not puzzle by being able to have bots do stuff. If you want to bnav and nothing else then the navy mission is there for you. If you want to play poker there are a million and one poker sites out there, similar for hearts and spades. If you just want to puzzle, enjoy the navy. If you want to actually play the game then you should have to collaborate, as the game was initially intended. This stops that.

You will not draw people to the game by having them join a game where everyone is isolated from each other. The only hope to get people to stay is to have a game where people want to work with each other and rely on each other. "Teamwork makes the dream work" as the saying goes. Games are successful because of the emotional attachment people have to them. There is no emotional attachment to a puzzle game with no interaction with others.
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U-G-L-Y you ain't got no alibi you ugly!
[Jul 4, 2018 10:11:45 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
joshuawhelan

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Re: Too many swabbies! Reply to this Post
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1) The trade button on the vessel configuration tab - why hire people when I can use bots for free?
2) Jobbing - All I realistically now need is a gunner (don't even need that on a GF or WF) and I can go and do a pillage without the need for anyone else. Equally, why would I want to go and job for someone else when I can do things, including flotillas and the like, on my own.
3) Cutters, merchant brigs and merchant galleons - These ships were traditionally used to move stock, with the difficulty of soloing them increasing with the size of the ship. The Grand Frig has a significantly larger hold than any of them and can easily be soloed now. What is the point in these ships anymore?


1) It's incredibly rare people hire pirates for their trade runs to begin with. You didn't need to before the change to move significant amounts of stock. People do solo MB runs all the time.

2) You could indeed take a WF or GF out to solo pillage, but you won't make a profit on your stock. It works pretty well right now.

3) True, but you also risk losing a lot more stock on your GF/MG if skilled pirates were to fight you. A ship full of fines isn't going to generate enough moves to escape a decently staffed medium ship, such as a baghlah.
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Robyns090

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I'd like to point out this chart is incorrect, Obsidian wasnt announced until December 2016 and didnt launch until June 2017. So start date on this graph is a year and a half off.
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patgangster

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Chart is correct - just a little misleading if you're looking at the lines as if they mean something. The chart just places dots and draws lines between them - 0 for obsidian on 2016 because it doesn't exist, ~350ish for '2017'.
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LJAmethyst

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Ah, so it's actually a bar graph. What did they say about lies and statistics.
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Captholland



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Well, im a Fan of this many swabbies. Sometimes when im online(europe). only 75 people. way to hard to fill a ship. With these swabbies you can do atleast some pillies. Yeh not that big elite, but atleast you can do something else than dock tart:D
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Whyknot7



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Ok i have tried this feature in a big ship pilly;

Here some notes;

- do never trust on bots for SF or rumble , they fall like flies.
Make sure seabattle is very succesfull.

- even tough they are bots they will consume your rum stocks pretty fast.

-make sure your human jobbers are in the station where you need most. Especially sails or guns.

Personal outcome; i will just fire bots and try to do the old way.
[Jul 5, 2018 3:26:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Whyknot7



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Re: Too many swabbies! Reply to this Post
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Ok i have tried this feature in a big ship pilly;

Here some notes;

- do never trust on bots for SF or rumble , they fall like flies.
Make sure seabattle is very succesfull.

- even tough they are bots they will consume your rum stocks pretty fast.

-make sure your human jobbers are in the station where you need most. Especially sails or guns.

Personal outcome; i will just fire bots and try to do the old way.



In addition to my above comments i think i spotted a bug;

When u job a real person unfortunately the bots u fired automatically come on board again... horrible
[Jul 6, 2018 5:49:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
patgangster

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As of the last patch, there's a slider in configure voyage that lets you set how many swabbies you want, that should fix most of these problems.

(I feel like it'd make more sense in the "manage jobbers" window, since they kind of emulate jobbers and there's already plenty of stuff in configure voyage with the full list of voyage types, but it's there and it works well)
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Filthyjake

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As of the last patch, there's a slider in configure voyage that lets you set how many swabbies you want, that should fix most of these problems.

(I feel like it'd make more sense in the "manage jobbers" window, since they kind of emulate jobbers and there's already plenty of stuff in configure voyage with the full list of voyage types, but it's there and it works well)


I am guessing this is to prevent changing it at sea.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
Filthyjake6145 (discord)

Want Kade Support post a intent....

Who would have ever thought there would be a more worthless familiar then the Krackling's? But now we have owls that are farm raised.
[Jul 6, 2018 12:50:24 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
patgangster

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I am guessing this is to prevent changing it at sea.


Ah, I didn't catch that when doing my messing around with it. Makes sense then.
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gamerocker20



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I like the current amount of swabbies.

If there are too many you can choose to have less :P
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greedy12



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Can we have extra swabbies leave in PvP like we have them leave when we enter blockades?

With a full ship of bots there is no risk of sinking if you run away (and therefore no reason to hunt)
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Thunderbird

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I feel like suddenly removing the swabbies in PvP could potentially be used to grief others. All of the environments that currently remove the extras are places that players have to deliberately go into. PvP is quite a bit different from that.

Also, the might calculations for differing ship sizes would cause this to be very lopsided in favor of an attacker that has a good number of players on it. If someone was solo pillaging on a grand frigate, they'd probably have a ton of swabbies on the ship. A PvP engagement that forced all the extras off would cripple the vessel, making it an easy target, and completely remove the point of the extra swabbies in the first place.
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