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Ticktick123

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Re: Quality of Life Suggestions for Obsidian Reply to this Post
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Just an FYI the players can fix the curve themselves to an extent.

If everyone played the puzzles on a weekly base the curve would adjust with their alt armies.

Today's free puzzle Distilling

Free Puzzle days



Accounts contribute to the curve for 10 days including the first day of their puzzling. They don't have to puzzle for the other 9 days. Therefore, I guess you're trying to say people should play the puzzles on the free days on alts? That's a lot of hassle for players who don't like some of those puzzles nor care.
[Jun 15, 2018 4:44:14 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: Quality of Life Suggestions for Obsidian Reply to this Post
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Accounts contribute to the curve for 10 days including the first day of their puzzling. They don't have to puzzle for the other 9 days. Therefore, I guess you're trying to say people should play the puzzles on the free days on alts? That's a lot of hassle for players who don't like some of those puzzles nor care.


Its a hassle, but its the players can do if they really care. Lots of post and talk about the curve, but the players don't want to fix it they just want it fixed, which isn't likely and a hassle for the developers.

Distilling open the puzzle walk away not that hard
Shipwright open the puzzle walk away not that hard
Weave slam pieces down
IM hit the outer edges and it will go quick.

OR

Complain about the curve. You don't have to try to be good if you want the curve lowered you need more poor scores. I much prefer to learn the puzzles but to each there own.
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[Jun 15, 2018 6:31:22 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
hidemyhoney

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Re: Quality of Life Suggestions for Obsidian Reply to this Post
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Mitjana and Valemia you both don't completely read my posts, all I'm pretty much doing is stating facts about the game with some sarcasm to lighten the mood. You both cannot argue that the Dev(s) and OMs have done nothing since the War Galleon.

 
 
Accounts contribute to the curve for 10 days including the first day of their puzzling. They don't have to puzzle for the other 9 days. Therefore, I guess you're trying to say people should play the puzzles on the free days on alts? That's a lot of hassle for players who don't like some of those puzzles nor care.


Its a hassle, but its the players can do if they really care. Lots of post and talk about the curve, but the players don't want to fix it they just want it fixed, which isn't likely and a hassle for the developers.

Distilling open the puzzle walk away not that hard
Shipwright open the puzzle walk away not that hard
Weave slam pieces down
IM hit the outer edges and it will go quick.

OR

Complain about the curve. You don't have to try to be good if you want the curve lowered you need more poor scores. I much prefer to learn the puzzles but to each there own.


To more important matters, depending on players if they want to learn the puzzle to get better or not, there pretty disheartening if your a past player, theres not much developers can do with the puzzle curve system. All they can do is try to get much players as possible playing, I logged on before and it was around 150 on a weekend. Forculus and OMs need to show more ambition, but have heard nothing from him for a certain period of time now which is obviously 1 of the most frustrating things in the forums and the game today.

Edits (my grammer is bad)
----------------------------------------
I love Honey

Big supporter of Crafting puzzles being freed!

Remove dead oceans, make a new one for the established players!

Add Skilled swabbies for SMHs/flotillas!
----------------------------------------
[Edit 3 times, last edit by hidemyhoney at Jun 15, 2018 9:52:46 PM]
[Jun 15, 2018 9:49:43 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Mitjana



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Re: Quality of Life Suggestions for Obsidian Reply to this Post
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I actually find it pretty frustrating that the response to the curve being a negative in it's current state with the games player base dwindling to be: "It's not a problem, you can work on getting better." or "Force the curve down through abusing the system using alts and the like."

I'm not even sure how the suggestion for people to explicitly play a puzzle to score a booched/poor to drive down the curve exists.

If the best solution on offer is, "Just open the puzzle and walk away... 100+ times on a different pirate each time" Well that's just asinine, and says the entire system needs redoing.



All that being said, I don't think it's that serious. There are measures that could exist to help balance things out; implementing a hard scoring metric to the lower ranks (Renowned and lower) and/or adjusting how the curve works to account for the reduced number of players.


The biggest thing I think is consistently missed here (Which is sort of strange to me considering one of the suggestions is advocating for alts...) is that the player count is abysmally low.

Not only this, but Y!PP has long since existed with the idea of multi-pirate use being a thing. Thus there is the potential as the number of unique active players dwindles that a single person could have an army of alts that completely destroy the curve for whatever players remain.

That's not to say I think that's happening, or even will happen with 100% certainty, but it's clearly evident in puzzles that are heavily participated in by fewer players across alt pirates (Crafting puzzles). I think there is a need to address that issue, and telling new players who join to 'get good' isn't a solution that sits well with me.


 
Mitjana and Valemia you both don't completely read my posts, all I'm pretty much doing is stating facts about the game with some sarcasm to lighten the mood. You both cannot argue that the Dev(s) and OMs have done nothing since the War Galleon.


I'm not sure what you're suggesting here. I read every post that comes as a reply in threads I post in. I'm passionate about Y!PP and I want to do whatever I can to help the game continue on.

Your posts in particular I have quoted out deliberately to address your various points (I disagreed with quite a few on the grounds that you were criticizing very loosely without really contributing to the discussion).

The game is really not in a good way right now. Dev communication is at a minimum, and the player base is continuing to shrink. If you think this problem is *less* of a problem than something else, don't try and naysay the suggestions/criticisms levied here... Rather go and bump/post on the topics you think are more relevant to ensure they stay near the top. Which I only bring up because thus far every detailed comment is responded too with a short answer that both lacks substance, and disputes questions/concerns made without so much as a sliver of supporting evidence.
[Jun 15, 2018 10:43:26 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: Quality of Life Suggestions for Obsidian Reply to this Post
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If the best solution on offer is, "Just open the puzzle and walk away... 100+ times on a different pirate each time" Well that's just asinine, and says the entire system needs redoing.


Kinda figured it would appeal to more then half the player base as they do the same on the daily sink's offered by top shelf. Yes the game is way to exploitable cheat to win, pay to win, its just the way of the ocean and in all honesty its pirate like.
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[Jun 16, 2018 3:54:41 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kyura94

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Re: Quality of Life Suggestions for Obsidian Reply to this Post
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Mitjana wrote: 
I actually find it pretty frustrating that the response to the curve being a negative in it's current state with the games player base dwindling to be: "It's not a problem, you can work on getting better." or "Force the curve down through abusing the system using alts and the like."

(...)

There are measures that could exist to help balance things out; (...)
Why is it frustrating?

It's better than yet another veteran player who's whining about the curve because "I used to be <insert rank> with <insert %> Increds/Exc but now they're lower. I know my puzzling ability hasn't changed and I need to see those good words on my pirate page and DR (not that I'd admit this need of mine), so yeah please fix the system". I've talked to many distillers, vets and newcomers alike. The latter almost never mentions the curve, they just want to know how to improve. And that's always more refreshing than listening to someone who's nostalgic with seeing his Incred DR.

It's also better than reading the whole "Look GH the game is dying, listen to my genius suggestion because I really care about the game and that makes my suggestion worthy of your consideration and ...". You can
1) enjoy the game for what it offers, "git gud" for the tougher ranks on Obsidian,
2) attempt to discuss workarounds such as the alt idea, or
3) attempt to join this horde of "listen to me GH" which never succeeds.

Sure it'd be great to have a bustling ocean, and I'm not attacking the efficacy of your suggestions, but Forculus is just one man. That has probably led to people who care to adopt a more internal locus of control - they'll just look to see what they can do instead. At the end of the day, the reason you're seeing workarounds such as the alt idea or simply "git gud" is because people have accepted the way things are on the other end.

Just my 2 poe.
----------------------------------------
Ryuken on Obsidian (active) and Emerald (not really)
I made an in-depth Distilling guide here, and a guns one somewhere.
I gave Obsidian their Owls c:
[Jun 16, 2018 4:12:53 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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The more I thought of the people playing and failing the more its the best fix.

Example you have 1 player who is good at the puzzle they have 9 accounts and get great scores with all of them.

The bad/learning player has 0 influence on the curve so you have a flawed curve.

For simplicity sake
Expert 3 points
Skilled 2 pints
Basic 1 Point

the skilled pirated is adding 3 points x 9 pirates =27 points
the rest don't play so the curve is high
27/9= 3 (yes overly simplistic but its probably 2.5 with those trying to learn.

9 pirates x 3=27
9 priates x 1=9
9+27=36
36/18 Average Score is drooped to 2 instead of 3.

Its easier to see how the curve can be influenced on the dead oceans. Go to Meridian an you can Alter the curve fairly fast with 9 pirates, get a crew/flag to be involved and its going to have a larger impact.
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[Jun 16, 2018 5:06:12 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Valmeia



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Re: Quality of Life Suggestions for Obsidian Reply to this Post
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Its a hassle, but its the players can do if they really care. Lots of post and talk about the curve, but the players don't want to fix it they just want it fixed, which isn't likely and a hassle for the developers.

The question is how do you get enough players willing to 'puzzle badly', in order to actually fix the curve.


 
Why is it frustrating?

For me it's frustrating for a few reasons.

1. I can't do some of the puzzles well enough to actually be able to do them outside of the navy, even with more lax activities like pillying. The scoring system isn't sensitive enough to show if there's small improvements either. As it stands, If I want to figure out how to carp, I'm stuck on a navy boat for hours trying to discern if one "poor" is better than another.

2. The ocean isn't learning-friendly. At least in my experience, as soon as you're good at one puzzle, that's the one people want you to do. Maybe it'd be different if my top puzzle was bilge, but it's rigging. A lot of ships seem to need more sails, which results in me being asked to sail all the time. Even if I politely decline, Usually I get shoehorned into it by the /plank command, or someone bringing in a player who can also only play one or two puzzles, neither of which is a sailing puzzle.

As far as I see it, the only ways to actually deal with this are to;
1. Go puzzle on emerald where the curve is lower, because I'll be more likely to see if im improving. (which runs into the problem of, why would I want to leave my ocean)

2. Fix the curve, by one means or another.

3. Introduce some sort of indicator to tell a player if they're improving or not.

4. Purposely tank my stats so I'm not asked to just rig all the time, at trade off of not having the ability to be jobbed on lower-requirement CIs.

5. Constantly play on an alt for pillies, while also rerolling the pirate every few days with a different name so that nobody catches on that im good at certain puzzles. This would generally be a pain in the booty for my crew, who would either A) never know who I am or B) would have to reinvite me constantly.

Telling people to "git gud" doesn't solve any of that. Solutions 1, 4 and 5 the ones in my control, but they've all got pain in the booty drawbacks which decrease the quality of life for obsidian. Hence, why I chose to suggest option 2.

 
At the end of the day, the reason you're seeing workarounds such as the alt idea or simply "git gud" is because people have accepted the way things are on the other end.


The game's declining population suggests that people haven't accepted the ways things are, but rather have moved on to other games which are actually getting development.
[Jun 16, 2018 12:54:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kyura94

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Re: Quality of Life Suggestions for Obsidian Reply to this Post
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Why is it frustrating?

For me it's frustrating for a few reasons.
Kindly refrain from quoting out of context. That question was specifically aimed at Mitjana's frustration regarding a response.
 
 
At the end of the day, the reason you're seeing workarounds such as the alt idea or simply "git gud" is because people have accepted the way things are on the other end.
The game's declining population suggests that people haven't accepted the ways things are, but rather have moved on to other games which are actually getting development
Again, know the context. It's about suggestions raised very recently from people who still play the game.


Regardless, you seem keen on discussion so I'll give you a fleshed out response on your recent points:

You'll never be satisfied if you live by the DR. One day you'll (hopefully) pull off consistent Increds, how are you going to find your small improvements then? You can't discern Incred from Incred. I'd hate to see you create a subsequent thread about making the curve more strict because of it.

Competitions and token trophies aside, you barely even need that Poor or Incred word. You know how many Blacksmithing pieces are leftover on average, you know the length of your Crystal Clear chain, you know how often/large you pull off Rigging loops, you can see the yellow Gunning line, etc.

If you're genuinely concerned about improving, there are such ways to measure your personal puzzling ability, which you can independently measure, and thereafter set your own bars progressively higher. People have engineered out somewhat-accurate proxy models to calculate score, others have made tutorials. Seek those out and blend everything together with your measures. Get over the DR, you barely need it. No matter what the curve does, it's silly to think we can all be categorised into 6 levels if you're looking for "small improvements".

Frankly though, I don't sense that from you. Generally speaking, people who have raised the point about going back to ABCXYZ ocean (due to the curve) are more concerned with seeing prettier words on the DR and pirate page. Don't get me wrong, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, just be happy in whichever ocean you're happier in.

About your Rigging thing, of course people would prefer you to puzzle at your best station. It's game design. It's factions. It's not designed for you to go on someone else's ship to learn a different station. They'd be a fool to let you do that. Welcome to Obsidian.
----------------------------------------
Ryuken on Obsidian (active) and Emerald (not really)
I made an in-depth Distilling guide here, and a guns one somewhere.
I gave Obsidian their Owls c:
[Jun 16, 2018 3:02:49 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Mitjana



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Re: Quality of Life Suggestions for Obsidian Reply to this Post
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Why is it frustrating?


I'm speaking more to the Game Design forum than to the mechanics at this point.

When the responses to suggestions and concerns are so diminutive, I can't help but wonder why they're even offered at all.

The people claiming that complaints about scoring, or how difficult acquiring certain ranks are just a result of sour grapes are, to be frank, lazy. If you really think that, why not at least state what makes you believe that point so that if the poster doesn't agree they can at least share why their personal concerns are different from your assumptions?

At least one user offered a suggestion, even if that suggestion wasn't realistically feasible to me (And violated the 'spirit of the game' as I saw it).

That's the primary source of frustration, however that's not all there is to it. The fact that we have to debate the critique of, "Puzzle Pirates scoring isn't working well with such a small player base." is also frustrating.

I don't see a problem with the pvp exploiting that was brought up in this thread (And countless others in this forum). However I'm not going to go out of my way to nay-say the critics of it, nor am I going to contribute to a post in a section for suggestions and ideas with purely negative responses. Posts in this forum should encourage and engage in discussion, not attempt to discredit a viewpoint you don't share without at least some semblance of reasoning offered with it.

Some questions not really answered that would be relevant (and make it so much more than just, "Exploit the curve" or "Get good"):

WHY do you think the curve is fine? When alts are allowed to participate in puzzling and contribute to the curve (instead of say an entire account contributing just once or something to that effect), isn't that messing things up?

WHY are you so willing to accept that the best course of change is either "Get good" or exploit the system in reverse in the hopes of lowering the curve? The curve is already being artificially raised by alts in some ways, why is expecting players to counter this by afking on a puzzle any better than just adjusting the system?

WHAT leads you to so conclusively decide that the issue isn't serious, that the problem only impacts old veterans, and that it's not actively pushing new players away? If your evidence is anecdotal, is it maybe not a tad bit unfair to represent it as fact?





 
It's better than yet another veteran player who's whining about the curve because "I used to be <insert rank> with <insert %> Increds/Exc but now they're lower. I know my puzzling ability hasn't changed and I need to see those good words on my pirate page and DR (not that I'd admit this need of mine), so yeah please fix the system". I've talked to many distillers, vets and newcomers alike. The latter almost never mentions the curve, they just want to know how to improve. And that's always more refreshing than listening to someone who's nostalgic with seeing his Incred DR.


I know you're exaggerating for effect, but I disagree with this assertion. I don't think it's just that simple. Sure maybe someone, somewhere feels this way, but the majority of comments from myself and Valmeia explicitly offer a different point of view. The point isn't that stats matter to a player personally, or that they give them some kind of feel-good effect (Though those might be true). It's that those stats/duty reports have real tangible effects on the game.

A bad DR will hurt a ships performance and could lead to a player getting replaced. A lower rank can mean less jobbing opportunities, and hurt a player if they choose to focus on the economic side of the game.

Expecting players to get better is fair, however if the difficulty curve is too high (regardless of the reason for such) you're going to do nothing but drive more players away.

Distilling (as you specifically noted in another post Kyura94), is a great example of this. It isn't (and wasn't) always the case where the scoring curve was so ridiculous that near perfect play is required to do well. I am all for expecting players to improve, but to what end?

As the number of players shrink this issue is going to get worse (As it has already). After all, the people who currently dominate specific puzzles aren't as likely to leave as the players who can't even manage to do a single puzzle at a decent level anymore.

Y!PP has always had a bit of an 'elitism' problem (Which is funny considering how hard OOO tried to stop it), but at least before it was masked with a marginally healthy player count.


 

It's also better than reading the whole "Look GH the game is dying, listen to my genius suggestion because I really care about the game and that makes my suggestion worthy of your consideration and ...". You can
1) enjoy the game for what it offers, "git gud" for the tougher ranks on Obsidian,
2) attempt to discuss workarounds such as the alt idea, or
3) attempt to join this horde of "listen to me GH" which never succeeds.

Sure it'd be great to have a bustling ocean, and I'm not attacking the efficacy of your suggestions, but Forculus is just one man. That has probably led to people who care to adopt a more internal locus of control - they'll just look to see what they can do instead. At the end of the day, the reason you're seeing workarounds such as the alt idea or simply "git gud" is because people have accepted the way things are on the other end.

Just my 2 poe.




Filthyjake's suggestion (Though I still don't agree with it on principle) isn't what I'm contesting specifically. I have no issue with anyone ever suggestion some kind of workaround/fix to a problem another person is suggesting be properly addressed.

That being said, it is absolutely unacceptable to me for anyone to say, "You can't complain or expect fixes. There is just one dev working on the game."

Not only is this counter to the things that have been spoken to directly by the dev in question (Whether this is true or not is a moot point), but it's also a complete cop-out that only serves to ensure nothing is changed. We will get nothing by staying quiet, and if you truly believe that voicing opinions to the contrary in the forums do nothing (And i don't actually disagree with you on that point) then why not just refrain from saying anything at all?





There is nothing wrong with thinking people like me are wasting their time with suggestions, but I refuse to agree with any assertion that doing nothing is somehow the best choice to make here.


TL;DR: I disagree, Y!PP needs to address how hard scoring is getting as the bulk of players leave and only elites are left.
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by Mitjana at Jun 17, 2018 3:25:46 AM]
[Jun 17, 2018 3:25:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: Quality of Life Suggestions for Obsidian Reply to this Post
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Filthyjake's suggestion (Though I still don't agree with it on principle) isn't what I'm contesting specifically. I have no issue with anyone ever suggestion some kind of workaround/fix to a problem another person is suggesting be properly addressed.


Reality, the curve is altered by people playing. Want the curve fixed play the puzzle even if your not good at it. The game is scored on % of people playing which is a good thing, if not their is little motivation to play it.

 
I don't see a problem with the pvp exploiting that was brought up in this thread (And countless others in this forum).


So one exploit is not in the spirit of the game the other isn't, interesting I think you found the issue with the game.

Obsidian is dieing off for so many reasons, yet Emerald is regaining life... Perhaps we need a discussion on whats working and whats not and a do over. Over all Obsidian would be thriving if the just released the classic version with some changes, problem is they went to far.

Positive changes IMHO:
Ocean Size
All kades sinking
Dropping of SMH Badge
Building Limits
Inns Transfering
Shop Dusting

Fails:
PvP system
-Factions at war
-Rewards
Lethargic Roll out
Dub Ocean vs a Sub Ocean
-its absolutely ridiculous to pay more to deliver products then the purchase price

Fixes for some issues:
Curve
- Tourneys more tourneys encouraging players to do the puzzle with harsh curves.
- Accounts that log in add into the curve even if they don't do the puzzle,
---This will have other issues as people will obtain Ult and never play holding the top spots so I don't like it.
Start Over
-Drop Factions
-Drop PvP
-Wipe sever
-Release Full Game "Fresh" With islands release dates pre-planned. Even put them on the kade board.
-Put out the Comod Markets.
-Lower the Limit of pirates one player can have. (will help the curve and you won't be able to be a barrelstomper on your alts).
-Drop global chat its just toxic trash most of the time, or enforce rules on it.
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Filthyjake all oceans primary Cerulean
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[Jun 17, 2018 6:52:12 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Ticktick123

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@Filthyjake


You can understand why they made it doubloon though - makes the game fully accessible and free to play. On the plus side too they'll make far more money from micro-transactions then they will from monthly subscriptions.
[Jun 17, 2018 5:07:07 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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@Filthyjake


You can understand why they made it doubloon though - makes the game fully accessible and free to play. On the plus side too they'll make far more money from micro-transactions then they will from monthly subscriptions.


I understand it from there side but its increadibly expensive to start out their. On the sub ocean I started one month later had made enough poe for Shops, Stalls, Ships, Clothing ect... Way easier on a new player. The Dub ocean's make the new player spend money anyway... Yes you can earn it if you want to pay deliver 15k for a large wisking potion... Ridiculous when the product is less then 1k.

To start out you want a sword 8-10 dubs 24-30k
Ect I have gone over it you have to play months just to earn poe to buy basics, such as badges. People spend way more to play on that system, then the $50 a Year for full access to the sub ocean's and everything.

My personal spending was $200-500 a year on Emerald.
$50 year Cerilian and have much more stuff.

Edit, and you can play for free on the sub ocean you just can't get things that you would dubs for, such as badges ect... so its very similar just poorly marketed and misunderstood.
----------------------------------------
Filthyjake all oceans primary Cerulean
DUB FREE Ocean (Cerulean) Dub Scribe 42 dubs NO delivery FEES
Subscribe for $49.95 a year
You can play free, with limited access. (just like no dubs)
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by Filthyjake at Jun 17, 2018 6:53:20 PM]
[Jun 17, 2018 6:43:46 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kyura94

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Mitjana wrote: 
WHY do you think the curve is fine? When alts are allowed to participate in puzzling and contribute to the curve (instead of say an entire account contributing just once or something to that effect), isn't that messing things up?

WHY are you so willing to accept that the best course of change is either "Get good" or exploit the system in reverse in the hopes of lowering the curve? The curve is already being artificially raised by alts in some ways, why is expecting players to counter this by afking on a puzzle any better than just adjusting the system?

WHAT leads you to so conclusively decide that the issue isn't serious, that the problem only impacts old veterans, and that it's not actively pushing new players away? If your evidence is anecdotal, is it maybe not a tad bit unfair to represent it as fact?
1) It's fine because it's fair. It's an indicator of how well you fare compared to others. It's just more strict on Obsidian because the playerbase is more elite. Admittedly this is borderline problematic when it comes to producing Expert labour, but the system is still fair.

2) Because it abides by the system, and it's simply fair game. Alongside the Puzzle Pirates' economy, there is an inherent beauty in how the puzzling curve is determined by the playerbase.

3) Hmm. It's a skill-based game. It's inevitable that newcomers would find themselves initially less proficient than veterans, why would they expect otherwise? You (generic "you", not personal) are used to playing on Easy instead of Hard but Obsidian isn't on Easy, hence your frustration with the curve. If instead you joined on Hard and that was all you ever knew, you wouldn't be tarting about the curve. You'd be trying to learn the ropes, seeking ways to improve. Yes ultimately you may thereafter find that everything is too hard and quit as a newcomer. But if you believe in "puzzle affinity" as I do, you're bound to find at least 1 puzzle which you intuitively "connect" with.

*) Regarding the alts: It takes an infinitesimally small amount of effort to make alts which tank the curve, than it does to make alts to raise the curve. Also, you seem overly focused on alts which raise the curve, conveniently dismissing the existence of alts with bad stats which dilute Obsidian's curve. Just an observation.
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Ryuken on Obsidian (active) and Emerald (not really)
I made an in-depth Distilling guide here, and a guns one somewhere.
I gave Obsidian their Owls c:
[Jun 17, 2018 9:16:33 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Mitjana



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Filthyjake wrote: 
So one exploit is not in the spirit of the game the other isn't, interesting I think you found the issue with the game.


I may have invited this when I even briefly mentioned the landmine that is PVP exploit on these forums, but I will say I don't think it's good form to combine two different unrelated points together because they serve your personal narrative.

To be clear, I didn't say that I thought the PVP exploit was or wasn't in violation of the spirit of the game as I saw it. I only related the exploitative fix you suggested to it. As far as I'm concerned both ARE a violation, but I simply do not feel that one impacts the majority of players like the other does.

Hopefully now you wont make broad assumptions in an attempt to discredit my views (Which speaking of, why is the manner of these discussions with everyone in this forum so hostile all the time).

Filthyjake wrote: 
Obsidian is dieing off for so many reasons, yet Emerald is regaining life... Perhaps we need a discussion on whats working and whats not and a do over. Over all Obsidian would be thriving if the just released the classic version with some changes, problem is they went to far.


While the numbers suggest that players are leaving Obsidian for Emerald, I don't see how either ocean is "regaining life". What are you basing this on? Aren't the overall numbers down? I'd think that suggests that not only is Obsidian losing players, but it's not just losing them to another ocean, the game as a whole is losing players.



Kyura94 wrote: 
1) It's fine because it's fair. It's an indicator of how well you fare compared to others. It's just more strict on Obsidian because the playerbase is more elite. Admittedly this is borderline problematic when it comes to producing Expert labour, but the system is still fair.


So just so I'm clear, you believe the scoring curve as it exists now, is fine, because it's fair? If that's the case, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Not only do I think it isn't fair, I don't think fairness is the only reason to consider when looking at if a system is working or not.

Is it enjoyable? Does it encourage players to keep playing? I don't think it accomplishes either of those things.



Adding to that (or on top of it, as it's not really super relevant to the point above), I also think there are countless other games with scoring systems done in a much better fashion. If you're going to assert that it's fair because it compares players to one another, and thus is working as intended... Why are we still hiding our respective scores behind words on a DR?

Another poster put it well, it's extremely hard to tell if you're improving in this game. While yes, we can read up on a puzzle and look for as much info as possible, that is such a poor user experience. this game is over 14 years old. The amount of conflicting, lacking or even outdated information is unreal.


Kyura94 wrote: 

2) Because it abides by the system, and it's simply fair game. Alongside the Puzzle Pirates' economy, there is an inherent beauty in how the puzzling curve is determined by the playerbase.


So you like the system, and I do not. The playerbase determining scoring works when there is a large sample size to pull from. Not when the average player count per day hasn't even hit 200 in the last month.


Kyura94 wrote: 

3) Hmm. It's a skill-based game. It's inevitable that newcomers would find themselves initially less proficient than veterans, why would they expect otherwise? You (generic "you", not personal) are used to playing on Easy instead of Hard but Obsidian isn't on Easy, hence your frustration with the curve. If instead you joined on Hard and that was all you ever knew, you wouldn't be tarting about the curve. You'd be trying to learn the ropes, seeking ways to improve. Yes ultimately you may thereafter find that everything is too hard and quit as a newcomer. But if you believe in "puzzle affinity" as I do, you're bound to find at least 1 puzzle which you intuitively "connect" with.


Except the curve on Obsidian has actually changed. This is evident just by looking at the Ultimate lists. The distribution is thrown off and thus what once on the same very ocean scored one thing, now scores something else entirely. We're actively watching a scoring inflation take place due to the exodus of players.

We're not talking about a brand new ocean anymore. Obsidian has almost been open for a year at this point. I don't view this ocean as "hard mode", and as the focal point of developer attention, I don't think it's fair to assert it as such either. New players coming to puzzle pirates are much more likely in my opinion to come to Obsidian.


Kyura94 wrote: 

*) Regarding the alts: It takes an infinitesimally small amount of effort to make alts which tank the curve, than it does to make alts to raise the curve. Also, you seem overly focused on alts which raise the curve, conveniently dismissing the existence of alts with bad stats which dilute Obsidian's curve. Just an observation.


I was only able to make 3 accounts when I joined the game per computer. That means I could make 15 pirates to "influence" the curve. That's not a whole lot of influence as far as I can tell.

I also think you're misrepresenting my statements with that last part. I'm not dismissing anything, bad alts likely do exist, but I would HEAVILY argue that there is far more chance of there being excessive amounts of great skilled alts (Thanks to competition alts that populate the OM comps/hold spots on the ult lists and labor alts) as compared to the amount of poorly skilled ones.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Mitjana at Jun 18, 2018 12:21:34 AM]
[Jun 18, 2018 12:15:38 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
hidemyhoney

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Re: Quality of Life Suggestions for Obsidian Reply to this Post
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So just so I'm clear, you believe the scoring curve as it exists now, is fine, because it's fair? If that's the case, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Not only do I think it isn't fair, I don't think fairness is the only reason to consider when looking at if a system is working or not.

Is it enjoyable? Does it encourage players to keep playing? I don't think it accomplishes either of those things.


Its only fair, because every different ocean has a balance, and yes on Obsidian its more unbalanced than others, go ask greenday about your complaints about the curve. Since I know distilling has been a major issue in all of this.

 
Adding to that (or on top of it, as it's not really super relevant to the point above), I also think there are countless other games with scoring systems done in a much better fashion. If you're going to assert that it's fair because it compares players to one another, and thus is working as intended... Why are we still hiding our respective scores behind words on a DR?

Another poster put it well, it's extremely hard to tell if you're improving in this game. While yes, we can read up on a puzzle and look for as much info as possible, that is such a poor user experience. this game is over 14 years old. The amount of conflicting, lacking or even outdated information is unreal.


The easiest way to learn is basically from another player, because video tutorials could not always give you all the answers. So for example if you wanted tips on how to do a certain puzzle, you can always ask someone who is very high ranked on the list, some of them can be snobby and some are usually happy to lend a hand. Luckily for me when I was learning puzzles, I could always ask certain people with screen-share calls on what I was doing wrong. So for DR I never worried about that, I mostly worried about stats being respected-master and how i could perform better to reach leg-ult level.
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I love Honey

Big supporter of Crafting puzzles being freed!

Remove dead oceans, make a new one for the established players!

Add Skilled swabbies for SMHs/flotillas!
[Jun 18, 2018 8:29:40 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: Quality of Life Suggestions for Obsidian Reply to this Post
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I may have invited this when I even briefly mentioned the landmine that is PVP exploit on these forums, but I will say I don't think it's good form to combine two different unrelated points together because they serve your personal narrative.

To be clear, I didn't say that I thought the PVP exploit was or wasn't in violation of the spirit of the game as I saw it. I only related the exploitative fix you suggested to it. As far as I'm concerned both ARE a violation, but I simply do not feel that one impacts the majority of players like the other does.


You tied them in perfectly as to why they are related as both ARE not with in the spirit of the game.

Which was my point it wasn't to expand any narrative. The game is exploitable. No one cares those who do leave.

As far as the oceans you can look at the activity tracker or log in and see who has more jobbing going on, more often I have seen it on Emerald. More kades also on Emerald 2 weekends ago. Noticing larger name players back on Emerald. So yes over all the game is losing players (just like every summer) The players are also split. Dark seas seems to have a large percentage of the logged in players sleeping on the dock.

The Spirit of the game is win at all cost now, its really not that great for attracting new players who don't know the exploits or can not afford to get started after a month of playing with out real money in a "Free to play game"
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[Jun 18, 2018 5:16:28 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kyura94

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Mitjana wrote: 
So just so I'm clear, you believe the scoring curve as it exists now, is fine, because it's fair? If that's the case, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Not only do I think it isn't fair, I don't think fairness is the only reason to consider when looking at if a system is working or not.

Is it enjoyable? Does it encourage players to keep playing? I don't think it accomplishes either of those things.

Hmm is it enjoyable or motivating? Well that really depends on the individual, but I get where you're coming from - in that it can be an easy "No" for some.

However, what fix are you really looking for? Should we dumb down the entire curve? And yet, if puzzle standings were too trivial to obtain, that's arguably less enjoyable and motivating. So where would you draw the line? Back to the difficulty that you are used to (formed from whatever your former ocean was)? That, in contrast, wouldn't be fair.

Mitjana wrote: 
That means I could make 15 pirates to "influence" the curve. That's not a whole lot of influence as far as I can tell.
If people adopted Filthyjake's suggestion, you'd have a number larger than 15. Injecting that into what is a rather small Obsidian playerbase, surely you recognise the influence it can have.
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Ryuken on Obsidian (active) and Emerald (not really)
I made an in-depth Distilling guide here, and a guns one somewhere.
I gave Obsidian their Owls c:
[Jun 18, 2018 7:46:15 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Valmeia



Joined: Jun 7, 2018
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Re: Quality of Life Suggestions for Obsidian Reply to this Post
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At the end of the day, the reason you're seeing workarounds such as the alt idea or simply "git gud" is because people have accepted the way things are on the other end.

The game's declining population suggests that people haven't accepted the ways things are, but rather have moved on to other games which are actually getting development

Again, know the context. It's about suggestions raised very recently from people who still play the game.

It's an excuse to dismiss problems which require long-term changes and solutions. Sure, some people will simply accept things won't change, and they'll just go with it. Yet this kind of complacency is part of why so many games try to squeeze their remaining audience for every penny they can instead of trying to improve their product in a way that will attract new and previous players to the game. I prefer to take the route which increases the chances that I'll want to keep playing (and subsequently keep paying for) a game. Puzzle Pirates has a delightful base, but some of it is still stuck in 2003. There are labour puzzles that still need to be released, the puzzle interfaces are too small for modern monitors, and the all-or-nothing PvP model of Obsidian is a difficult model to pull off in a way that feels balanced and satisfying. As much as I'd like to see these bigger problems fixed, the time and money it'd cost to do so likely makes them infeasible at this time. (Unless GH wants to do a kickstarter to raise the funds for a proper relaunch? Nudge-nudge. wink-wink. Take my money meme.) However, smaller changes which could prologue the game's life, and increase the enjoyment new and old players get from the game, should not be considered infeasible.

 
You'll never be satisfied if you live by the DR. One day you'll (hopefully) pull off consistent Increds, how are you going to find your small improvements then? You can't discern Incred from Incred. I'd hate to see you create a subsequent thread about making the curve more strict because of it.


There's a difference from being a mid tier vs a top tier pirate. As it stands, i consider myself a pretty average player. I'm above average, or even quite good at some puzzles, and others i'm not great or even poor at. Were I able to score constant increds, I'd probably be at a point where I can use the top player list for each puzzle as a marker for how well I'm doing. Plus, at that point I'd be an "outlier" not an "average pirate". The problem is that the curve doesn't work for the "average pirate". It locks the average person out of more difficult content because, correct me if im wrong, your DR affects how much your puzzling helps your ship. This makes it more difficult than it should be for most players to access CIs and WS pillies.


 

If you're genuinely concerned about improving, there are such ways to measure your personal puzzling ability, which you can independently measure, and thereafter set your own bars progressively higher. People have engineered out somewhat-accurate proxy models to calculate score, others have made tutorials. Seek those out and blend everything together with your measures. Get over the DR, you barely need it. No matter what the curve does, it's silly to think we can all be categorised into 6 levels if you're looking for "small improvements".


Tutorials are helpful, yes. I've looked through quite a lot of them, although for some puzzles my pattern recognition just hasn't developed to the point I can see that many moves ahead.

However it is one thing to look through a tutorial (which honestly should be included or linked to in game because our current tutorials are dated and sub-par), it is another thing to expect players to use proxy models to gauge their score instead of putting in a more viable means of gauging score in-game. Even a simple notice of "Improved" or "diminished" score would suffice to point players in the right direction as far as their puzzling goes.

 

Frankly though, I don't sense that from you. Generally speaking, people who have raised the point about going back to ABCXYZ ocean (due to the curve) are more concerned with seeing prettier words on the DR and pirate page. Don't get me wrong, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, just be happy in whichever ocean you're happier in.

I think you missed the post where I've said I have no interest in going to Emerald. I'm not from Emerald, and I have no interest in starting over. What I want is to see Obsidian become a better ocean. I mention Emerald because it's curve and population make it appear like the most viable ocean.

 
About your Rigging thing, of course people would prefer you to puzzle at your best station. It's game design. It's factions. It's not designed for you to go on someone else's ship to learn a different station. They'd be a fool to let you do that. Welcome to Obsidian.


This is exactly the problem. If I am not always doing the best puzzle I can possibly do all the time, I'm considered as hindering the ship. Even if i switch to, for example bilge, which i'm still good at but not as good as rigging. That is not a good attitude, nor is it healthy for a game at this point in time. I don't know about you, but when I play a new game, I want to be able to jump in and start going. I don't expect to be able to do all the content all at once, but I expect most, if not all, of the content to be reasonably available to everyone after a reasonable amount of time. Right now, because the curve is based on your rank in relation to other players, and there are a lot of absolutely exceptional players on the ocean with very few new players, there are chunks of content that aren't reasonably available after a reasonable amount of time.

To compare to other MMOs, pillaging is like the open world content. It should be accessible to everyone, and while there are bumps along the road, it should be an easy and enjoyable experience. Big SMHs and blockades are like dungeons. You get a better payout than other content, and they should be accessible to everyone once they reach a certain level- in this game's case, once you have a certain puzzle experience. Wildseas pillies are your early raids. the ones most players should be able to do, although they may require more preparation and a good leader to get through. These should still be accessible to most players, but after they've had some time to explore the puzzles and practice them. This is the type of pillaging where i'd expect to run into the "Play your best puzzle" gate. Small SMHs, particularly CI and junk cit runs as KH is more of a bnav specific thing, should be your higher tier raids. This should be the sort of thing that is accessible to most players provided they are willing to put in a bit of time to prepare. The problem here, however, is because the curve is so strict, it's hard to even get one puzzle to the ren+ rank a lot of these runs want players to have. It wouldn't be so bad if able to ren rankings were determined on one's ability to meet a set score goal, with rankings above ren being based on the traditional curve. Similarly, DRs would be set on the ability to meet those scores up to excellent, with incredibles still being for just the best of the best scores. This would still be enough for most players to be effective on their stations, and able to access token generation, allowing most players to have access to this content. There'd still be ultra-elite runs, but it would alleviate a lot of the pressure for public runs.

The reality of Obsidian, however, is more difficult than what the typical "mmo" structure is built around. And while I understand this game is most definitly not the typical MMO, it's also not 2003 anymore. The world changes, and Massive Multiplayer games need to make changes in order to match new expectations. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for the games content to be accessible to the average player. What's worse, is most of the content isn't particularly accessible. Outside of the navy, regular (non-WS) pillying is the content with the lowest difficulty gate. This should be the open world content. It should be accessible to everyone. Yet, at the same time, I can only access one, or maybe two puzzles out of six, because otherwise I'm seen as hindering the ship. I don't think this would be nearly as bad if the curve was a little more lax, because most players would be able to do every station to a reasonable degree. On the other side of things, big SMHs are open to everyone due to the low number of players on the ocean, but the rewards you get for puzzling are significantly diminished if you're not outputting a 'reasonable' DR. I dont think the 'reasonable' DR is reasonable here, I think the curve is too strict, and it makes it difficult for the average player to make enough PoE from these for it to be worth the 2-3 hour run time and additional loading time wait, especially when there is the possibility of sinking. I do think there would be better participation (and success rates) if the curve was relaxed a little. Doubly so if Mitjana's bot suggestion were implemented as well.



 
 
Filthyjake wrote:
Obsidian is dieing off for so many reasons, yet Emerald is regaining life... Perhaps we need a discussion on whats working and whats not and a do over. Over all Obsidian would be thriving if the just released the classic version with some changes, problem is they went to far.



While the numbers suggest that players are leaving Obsidian for Emerald, I don't see how either ocean is "regaining life". What are you basing this on? Aren't the overall numbers down? I'd think that suggests that not only is Obsidian losing players, but it's not just losing them to another ocean, the game as a whole is losing players.


Mmh, I think in this case both situations are true. Half of my hearties list has left Obsidian for Emerald again, while others have quit outright. I think it's a situation where Emerald is gaining back old players, while declining overall. This makes it feel more rejuvenated due to the well-known status of these old players returning in comparison to lesser known pirates leaving. On the other side, Obsidian is losing at an even faster rate because it's draining into two different pools.

As far as jake's comment, some things I think work are:

1. The smaller ocean size both works, and doesn't work. Overall I think it's an improvement, however. It's good for the economy, because things can be shipped in a reasonable amount of time, but it doesn't quite have enough to be a fully functioning ocean. There's no large blockade-ready island, no outposts, and no gem trading. The two largest flags also have an alliance of sorts, which puts blockading at a stand still. Maybe a large island and some outposts would help this, maybe not. I think it's more likely that it would help, without making the ocean too big.

2. Wildseas are nice. it's a good PvE challenge and i really would like to see those stay.

3. building destruction works-- and doesnt work. Right now it's become a "game of shipyards". This could help be alleviated by adjusting the OM shipyard so that it only accepts so much skilled and expert labour on it's never ending orders before forcing basic labour to be filled in (Right now, the PV one needs piles of basic labour compared to skilled and expert) or by allowing a couple of the other ships (Particularly Merchant Galleons as they have a more PvE purpose) to be built in stalls. However, I think overall it's an improvement from seeing dozens upon dozens of shops on an island.

Some things that aren't working:

1. Factions. The system is broken, which has been mentioned here. Fixing it would need to be a giant topic of it's own.

2. PvP vs PvE balance. The game added a lot of PvP, without adding enough PvE focused things to balance out the new risks within the ocean. Turning off PvP in faction specific seas could help alleviate this, as it gives players better paying pillaging routes. Similarly, things like shipping commodities doesn't pay as well as it could considering the risk involved. A sunken ship full of commodities costs an arm and a leg- but without giving your pirate a pegleg and a hook.


Edit;
 
However, what fix are you really looking for? Should we dumb down the entire curve? And yet, if puzzle standings were too trivial to obtain, that's arguably less enjoyable and motivating. So where would you draw the line? Back to the difficulty that you are used to (formed from whatever your former ocean was)? That, in contrast, wouldn't be fair.

I think moving it towards being more like Emerald would be more fair than where it is now. At least from an outside standpoint, depending on how data is stored, it also could be the simplest to implement, however there are other ways to change it.

For example, why not change it so that able to renowned are determined by a pirates ability to meet a set score goal. Something that most players will be able to achieve in at least a few piracy puzzles, while leaving the upper ranks based on ranking within the ocean? So, a Legendary stat would still be very impressive, and ideal for highly-elite runs, but most players will still be able to output a high enough DR to do everything in the game, although for higher end content they may only be able to perform a couple of puzzles well enough, in comparison to being able to do most of the puzzles at least well enough they aren't booching/getting poor while trying. (I will always booch Shipwright. No matter how hard I try and how many tutorials I watch =P)
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