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Kyura94

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Distil labour thing Reply to this Post
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Hello. Ryuken again.

Preface: This isn't about Distil ranks. Just the labour output.

Distilling has reached new levels of broken-ness:


Could the labour output level be tweaked somehow? Yes I plead ignorance in the coding's potential complexity.

I understand how everything revolves around the curve, but CC12 inherently requires a small element of luck. And when that only gives a Good (which limits output to Basic/Skilled), that just feels wrong.

Don't get me wrong: Obsidian Distilling has always been broken. But when you need significant luck (on top of optimal play) to produce Expert labour through puzzling, perhaps it's a bit too far?
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Ryuken on Obsidian (active) and Emerald (not really)
I made an in-depth Distilling guide here, and a guns one somewhere.
I gave Obsidian their Owls c:
[May 21, 2018 2:25:13 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Ticktick123

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Re: Distil labour thing Reply to this Post
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How many spices did you burn?
[May 21, 2018 3:32:57 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Prammy16

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The number of spices burnt in any one particular session isn't the point. The fact that you can have players that are Ultimate on Emerald but still not be able to consistently even puzzle an expert labor is beyond wild and needs attention.
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-Porglit on Emerald
-Shadetemplar on Obsidian
[May 21, 2018 5:10:16 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
hidemyhoney

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Re: Distil labour thing Reply to this Post
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Theres really nothing you can do to help the distill curve, theres still alts camping top 10 list, and theres no new players coming in since Grey Havens kinda stuffed that up.

So really only thing you can do is either leave Obsidian and Distill on the Active Classic Oceans, or continue complaining about the distill problem, which will never be addressed or even be fixed on Obsidian.

With the Labour issue that will not be moved anyway, all CC12s are good/skilled thats how it is, CC13 will always be expert/excellent, and CC14 should give you an expert/incredible. Again OMs/Devs can't do anything to fix it, if they adjusted it, your more likely going to be complaining even more with CC14 as an excellent, and won't be fair to other Active Oceans.
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Keaze is right.

Big supporter of Crafting puzzles being freed!

Remove dead oceans, all those wasted new players :/
[May 22, 2018 1:18:53 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: Distil labour thing Reply to this Post
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The fix would be getting people to play the puzzle, perhaps if it was free every day people would try to learn it.

Obsidian is a large group of veteran players, they do what they are good at an that has waked the curve way up.

A cap of say CC 10=Excellent would work as well, doesn't seem that hard to make happen.

Easy fix is if everyone with labor alt army's would play the puzzle once a week even bootching it. This would could be done by players.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
Filthyjake6145 (discord)

Want Kade Support post a intent....

Who would have ever thought there would be a more worthless familiar then the Krackling's? But now we have owls that are farm raised.
[May 22, 2018 3:33:28 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Ticktick123

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Re: Distil labour thing Reply to this Post
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The number of spices burnt in any one particular session isn't the point. The fact that you can have players that are Ultimate on Emerald but still not be able to consistently even puzzle an expert labor is beyond wild and needs attention.


I disagree with both parts of your post, although I understand your approach.

Spices do impact the score. Number of spices burnt / used in CCs for a short while distinguished between Incredible and Excellent scoring for a CC13 (on Obsidian) - they are important.

Every single puzzle in the game works on the same scoring curve using active puzzling population for the respective puzzle to determine how many Ultimates, and in turn the necessary requirement for a scoring on the DR - and henceforth, the quality of labor you produce. It is no doubt that Obsidian has some top tier distillers that play actively, featuring alot of alts from one of those elite distillers. If this same player had this many active alts on Emerald, then the current Ultimates of Emerald wouldn't be Ultimate.

We shouldn't change the scoring of one puzzle because it is 'irritating' or 'exceptionally hard' to score expert labor, or get ultimate. That would be subjective and unfair - what if Foraging is too easy to get ultimate in, and someone who doesn't deserve Ultimate gets it?

The solution to the problem is simple; get better, or get more players playing. I speak from experience, it took me many hours of table banging and cussing to get Ultimate distilling from Novice through to Paragon experience. And when I finally got it, I felt a real sense of achievement.

 
With the Labour issue that will not be moved anyway, all CC12s are good/skilled thats how it is, CC13 will always be expert/excellent, and CC14 should give you an expert/incredible.


I've done testing, and CC12s are getting me Excellents and Skilled labor. Spicy CC12s produce expert labor.
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[Edit 3 times, last edit by Ticktick123 at May 22, 2018 10:19:33 AM]
[May 22, 2018 7:14:53 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kyura94

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Re: Distil labour thing Reply to this Post
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Appreciate the comments shared so far. Regrettably I have to say I'm quite disappointed however. I knew how easily it could be spun into a Rank/Standing issue and I was hoping the Preface would rule that out.

Ozzy wrote: 
Every single puzzle in the game works on the same scoring curve using active puzzling population for the respective puzzle to determine how many Ultimates, and in turn the necessary requirement for a scoring on the DR - and henceforth, the quality of labor you produce.

This is the issue I'm trying to get at. What if the last part of that logic chain is broken? What if labour output was tweaked to be based on the (hidden) objective score of the puzzle?

I am not suggesting changing the scoring of the puzzle. Instead, a disconnect between DR and labour output.

I do not support bots / 3rd party programs. but hypothetically just imagine if a machine played the puzzle. even the machine can't reliably produce expert labour in Obsidian. i mean... c'mon
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Ryuken on Obsidian (active) and Emerald (not really)
I made an in-depth Distilling guide here, and a guns one somewhere.
I gave Obsidian their Owls c:
[May 22, 2018 10:17:41 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Prammy16

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Re: Distil labour thing Reply to this Post
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I've never once advocated changing it simply because "it's hard". I bring up the ultimate players to point out much the same thing that Kyura brought up the hypothetical bots: Literally the best players (or bots) out there still can't get expert unless they're lucky, due to the design of the puzzle.

If you make a puzzle so lopsided that literally perfect skill can't get you reliable expert labor, then the balance of labour quality output is skewed heavily. It should be balanced better.
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-Porglit on Emerald
-Shadetemplar on Obsidian
[May 22, 2018 12:44:14 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Ticktick123

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I've never once advocated changing it simply because "it's hard". I bring up the ultimate players to point out much the same thing that Kyura brought up the hypothetical bots: Literally the best players (or bots) out there still can't get expert unless they're lucky, due to the design of the puzzle.

If you make a puzzle so lopsided that literally perfect skill can't get you reliable expert labor, then the balance of labour quality output is skewed heavily. It should be balanced better.


Then the issue is the nature of the puzzle surely? Not the scoring curve, since scoring mechanism is linear across all puzzles.

I'd argue, as a fairly decent (certainly far above average) distiller, I can regularly get expert labor. On occasion I'll *unfortunately* (because of the puzzle mechanics) get skilled labor. I think the balance is fine. We have a highly competitive ocean on Obsidian, inherently getting expert labor will be tougher.

Complaining about RNG in a puzzle (such as in Distilling where white piece spawn fluctuates all throughout the game) is an extremely subjective slippery slope. There are plenty of puzzles that have strong elements of RNG in them.

To reiterate the puzzle has the illusion of being lopsided currently due to the insane average of top tier players, where the threshold between reliably getting expert vs skilled labor is very high.
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[Edit 3 times, last edit by Ticktick123 at May 22, 2018 2:29:12 PM]
[May 22, 2018 2:24:11 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kyura94

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Re: Distil labour thing Reply to this Post
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Ozzy wrote: 
On occasion I'll *unfortunately* (because of the puzzle mechanics) get skilled labor. I think the balance is fine.
Even with a flawless strategy and machine-perfect movement, one could still end up with Skilled labour. I don't agree "the balance is fine".

for those caught up with Rank: Expert labour is pegged to Renowned. I can understand RNG playing a role in the pursuit for Ultimate, but machine-perfect not even reliably executing at Renowned?

Shadetemplar wrote: 
If you make a puzzle so lopsided that literally perfect skill can't get you reliable expert labor, then the balance of labour quality output is skewed heavily. It should be balanced better.
This. And I genuinely think this would be a fix-all without messing up scoring curves:
Ryuken wrote: 
What if labour output was tweaked to be based on the (hidden) objective score of the puzzle?

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Ryuken on Obsidian (active) and Emerald (not really)
I made an in-depth Distilling guide here, and a guns one somewhere.
I gave Obsidian their Owls c:
[May 23, 2018 4:30:16 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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