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joshuawhelan

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Is the Dark Seas island shoppe mechanic viable? Reply to this Post
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In particular, I refer to these points (taken from YPPedia):

  • Governors now have the power to close down shoppes on their islands. If they do so, the shop will immediately go dark. A notice will be displayed in the "Building" tab clarifying that the shop was shut down by the governor.
  • If the shop remains closed down for 30 days, it will be destroyed. Governors can open the shop back up at any time before it's destroyed, if they so choose.


What is the general consensus on this?

I personally feel that it's an overly complicated mechanic offering only disadvantages. I'm assuming this was added to make blockading a bit more appealing, to add a new dimension to them and ultimately increase the volume of blockades. After seeing this in action however, I'm becoming increasingly convinced that it's the wrong solution.

Some of the problems:

  • Blockades seem to generally run on a 4-week cycle, revolving around the possible closure dates for shoppes. There's also diminished interest in blockading an island if it's going to take 3-4 weeks to shut down a shoppe.
  • We're in a situation where half of the SY shoppes on the ocean are sat idle at any one time, because they're generally closed for all but 1 week of that 4 week cycle I mentioned previously.
  • There seems to be a mad rush to scuttle one of the two islands we actually have open near the end of the cycle, while a handful of flags fight over possible SY spots. This is automatically one weekend a month where a real blockade is ruled out.
  • Right now, people are exclusively building shipyards, with the ocean still young. This will eventually change, and the current setup gives the island's owner almost no flexibility despite their considerable investment in taking the island. A flag that already has a decent fleet may want to repurpose their prize, the island, to stock production instead.
  • There's currently no incentive for a flag who already has a decent number of WFs to defend their island. What would be the sense in that when they can just go back for the island 3 weeks later and lose absolutely nothing doing so?
  • The flags who have sat on the SYs the longest are able to consolidate their power in the form of WFs. 4 weeks is too long for a different flag to wait just to start production - the conditions are heavily weighted in favour of those who got to the islands first. Relying on the OM-run SYs will generally leave them fleet-less for a good 4 - 6 months.


It surely makes much more sense for every deed to transfer to the new governor? Suddenly it will make sense for flags that don't have 50+ WFs in reserve to go for islands still, and we'll no longer be in a situation where the ocean is centered entirely on when a SY can and cannot be used.
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[May 14, 2018 11:16:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Re: Is the Dark Seas island shoppe mechanic viable? Reply to this Post
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Yeah, I think the new shop game design is really really bad.

For most shops, you need a really long time frame to be productive. Many shops can have millions of PoE worth of commodities, which can take many months to build up and if you can lose it all if you take a short break, the risk is way too high. Consider something like a tailor shop where moving a rack can take 20-80 hours of work and cost many dubs in aging each item. Having shops dust in less than 6 months to a year is really bad.

For most blockades, you need a really short time frame, you can fully build an island in a matter of a few weeks. If dusting shops is supposed to help, you really can't wait 30 days.

Big conflict here.

A "simple" fix for medium and out post islands would be to have a shop change hands almost immediately. After exactly 3 days after a blockade, the shop should be reset to a brand-new status, clearing everything in the hold, the order queue, the furniture props, everything.

The three days would give the loser a chance to finish things up while letting the winner prepare for the change over. This would work fine for shipyards making ships, or other really simple shop configurations. If you won an island, you would know that you would have the shops for at least a week.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[May 14, 2018 12:04:01 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
greedy12



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Re: Is the Dark Seas island shoppe mechanic viable? Reply to this Post
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This makes sense. I don't see any downsides to this.
[May 14, 2018 12:08:41 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Pikapyah

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Re: Is the Dark Seas island shoppe mechanic viable? Reply to this Post
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Blockades seem to generally run on a 4-week cycle, revolving around the possible closure dates for shoppes. There's also diminished interest in blockading an island if it's going to take 3-4 weeks to shut down a shoppe.


Everyone involved in our alliance ring has always(close to every week? Probably every week?) Attacked an island where we could have.

 
We're in a situation where half of the SY shoppes on the ocean are sat idle at any one time, because they're generally closed for all but 1 week of that 4 week cycle I mentioned previously.


Brenda's shoppes have been opend up for several months.

 
There seems to be a mad rush to scuttle one of the two islands we actually have open near the end of the cycle, while a handful of flags fight over possible SY spots. This is automatically one weekend a month where a real blockade is ruled out.


There is only one side of the ocean with "mad rush" intentions of scuttling. If you take a closer look at blockade history of obsidian. if i can count correctly we are currently at 5 AH/CIS scuttles vs 1 KTP.

 
Right now, people are exclusively building shipyards, with the ocean still young. This will eventually change, and the current setup gives the island's owner almost no flexibility despite their considerable investment in taking the island. A flag that already has a decent fleet may want to repurpose their prize, the island, to stock production instead


Brenda has made it clear in their intention to remove one of the SY's for another bazaar OR a gallery, if they were to win magpie back.

 
There's currently no incentive for a flag who already has a decent number of WFs to defend their island. What would be the sense in that when they can just go back for the island 3 weeks later and lose absolutely nothing doing so?


That could be correct,yes. But it does leave you in a bad position if you happen to lose that weekend. Brenda and alliance have never,not defended one of their islands.



At the end it comes down to how the player base deals with these things. and it's these actions that needs to be discussed in the parley forums, to shine light on how flags handle or manage their islands. It is from these discussions that people can side with a certain party or decide to sail with the other party. There is no one asking why we are dealing with scuttles every 2 weeks on a pvp based ocean with clear intent to avoid pvp.


In theory there is nothing wrong with the mechanic of closing down a SY. There is enough room for the players to handle the mechanic.

To all the haters that will reply with CC warrior. I think it has been verry clear this weekend that you all learned the fine art of cc warrioring to. This is a constructive responds to OP. If u wanna cry about me keep it in parley.

If u have any questions about my reasoning. Ask away.
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"economy killer, destroyer of stalls"
Pika says, "make it war bae"
Catch 'em all declared war on Scuppering Shrews.
Catch 'em all declared war on For Fox Sake.
Catch 'em all declared war on Consider it Sunk.
[May 14, 2018 12:15:24 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Tierios



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Re: Is the Dark Seas island shoppe mechanic viable? Reply to this Post
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Personally I think the SY dusting time should be shorter, i think three weeks would be a suitable amount of time. Having to fight 4 kades just to have access to SY's is a hard ask. This is even more difficult for flags who didn't manage to obtain frigs from the OM SY's or are still waiting, as you may have frigs for 1-2 kades but if you have a bad kade or run out you're going in at a heavy disadvantage not having frigs when you're opponents do.

"Brenda and alliance have never,not defended one of their islands." What about when KTP scuttled their island, didn't defend it and the BK took it and shut down the shoppes and trading posts? I for one certainly didn't see them or Brenda defending Loggerhead that week.

You are also right in the fact that Brenda's SY's have been open for several months, meaning your access to frigs has been a lot greater than most so you can understand when flags scuttle they do it for multiple reasons.

1. We've kaded a lot lately and the team could use a break, it's also a way to involve newer navvers and land team members without putting them in a huge kade which may cost the flag and them their confidence.

2. Ensuring your SY dusts, as you said yourself, you have had that SY for several months, from selling frigs at 600k a pop you can tell the amount of frigs you have is superior to most flags. By dusting the SY we have a chance to rebalance the frigs on each alliance ring which will ultimately lead to more kades as both sides will feel prepared to go into them instead of worrying about their frig count.

3. You also say Brenda made it clear they would dust one of the SY's where on your intent post, you said it was one of three options and Betty in global chat said herself she wasn't kading Magpie for any other reason than the shipyards. I appreciated the truth in that because the SY's are the reason to hold an island at the moment because of the lengthy wait time to get a frig from the OM shipyards.
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Scar On Obsidian Ocean
[May 14, 2018 12:49:37 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
dangerdann

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Re: Is the Dark Seas island shoppe mechanic viable? Reply to this Post
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Before I begin my response, I would like to note something for the record:

 
To all the haters that will reply with CC warrior. I think it has been verry clear this weekend that you all learned the fine art of cc warrioring to.


To be clear, out of the roughly 200mil jobbing pay that Consider it Sunk have paid out in our blockades on Obsidian, only around 5mil of that has every come from cc' swiping. I know that this is hard for you to believe, Pika, but it is true. I myself spent a hundred bucks on boxes this week, something I never do - it was fun! I can see why you do it. Unfortunately, I am not rich (yet - watch out) so this was a luxury for me, and for our flag. So I just wanted to set the record straight, not that you'll care to believe us, of course.

But what I did want to say was that - to my surprise - I'm with Pika on this one. I personally do not think that the SY dusting time is an issue, maybe it could be a week shorter, as Scar suggests, not a bad idea - but these last four weeks have been incredibly fun for Consider it Sunk and the ocean. We have had to work our butts off to make sure we had jobbers on side, navvers at their A-game and a fleet ready - and we know what the prize is. If the SY dusting time was shorter, it would be far easier for a flag to win one week and scuttle the next and DONE! Whilst this way, you have to get through four weekends, whether it's by political tactics, making sure you know your game mechanics or simply by being the better team on multiple weekends.

And Keep the Peace have seen the issues with game mechanics (rightly or wrongly) and I am happy that the playing field in the ocean has begun to even out - but I personally think that the current dusting times means that flags have to prepare for war over a good amount of weeks, rather than coming in quickly and stealing for a week and running away, never to be seen again. This Brenda v CiS war has been entertaining for all involved and it has been simply down to SY dusting and long-term plans from both flags. I don't think that we should be moving away from this.

That being said, all of this will become less relevant when new islands are released.
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Dangerdann on Cerulean/Emerald
Blighty on Obsidian

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And on the stage steps yet another puppet ../ cues Dann sing it !

[May 14, 2018 1:26:44 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Pikapyah

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Re: Is the Dark Seas island shoppe mechanic viable? Reply to this Post
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I've done so well to be the bigger man these weeks, while you all act like little children. The fact that you scuttle to give your team a breather is a big joke. And you know it, everyone knows it. It's the only thing i will say. I'll continue my path on beiing the bigger man. Peace. Please continue this thread about what it is.
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"economy killer, destroyer of stalls"
Pika says, "make it war bae"
Catch 'em all declared war on Scuppering Shrews.
Catch 'em all declared war on For Fox Sake.
Catch 'em all declared war on Consider it Sunk.
[May 14, 2018 1:32:39 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Tierios



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Re: Is the Dark Seas island shoppe mechanic viable? Reply to this Post
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Hmmm, the better man? Just today you said in global we must have used a bot army because we outjobbed you? You got outjobbed mainly because you can't buy friends, as much as you have tried Pika. We reached out to every dormant player and every friend we could and it worked, we outjobbed you. Instead of accusing another flag of bot armies, I think you should focus on being nicer to the people around you, you may have all this money, but manners go a long way and a lot of people jobbed for us because we respect and care for our allies and supporters whereas you just erupt into a salt fest every time you suffer a setback and spout off in global or the forums over it. This reflects poorly not only on you but your flag and that showed on Saturday. I would like to thank our supporters once again as you all really turned up for us and for that, we will be forever in your debt. I truly would like to see you be the bigger man at some point Pika, and when they day comes, I'll be the first to virtually shake your hand and say well done.
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Scar On Obsidian Ocean
[May 14, 2018 1:42:01 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Re: Is the Dark Seas island shoppe mechanic viable? Reply to this Post
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As a player, I come to the game design forum to discuss game design pros and cons. I think that much of this discussion would be better if taken to parley.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[May 14, 2018 1:57:54 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
joshuawhelan

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Re: Is the Dark Seas island shoppe mechanic viable? Reply to this Post
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That being said, all of this will become less relevant when new islands are released.


A great point, but at the same time, the advantage is on the side of those who have had exclusive SY shoppe access on Magpie & Loggerhead. This is 3 flags in total I think? Two outposts, with SYs on them, could be a partial solution in terms of rotation but there's a big risk of those islands becoming a fallback option for the flags with the bigger fleets.
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Twistedblake

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Re: Is the Dark Seas island shoppe mechanic viable? Reply to this Post
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Scar, Pika tried to keep this discussion about what the OP is talking about, he even reffered to bringing up discussions to the parley forums. Did KTP ever abuse the scuttle mechanics and have a weak BK hit their island just to defend it and ensure they keep the island? The weekend you guys hit Loggerhead was the very weekend that the AH SY would dust... KTP had talked about possibly having a weak BK come in so we could guarantee keeping the island because we knew someone would hit us (and had word it would be CIS)... did we do that? NO! You guys have used this mechanic in 2 of the what... 4 or 5 weeks you've held the island? If the Bk mechanic was changed to make it so island owners couldn't have a BK come in and defend their SY, then why have the developers not made it so a 3p flag can enter a BK attack kade with the chance of winning the island... this little trick you guys are using is in essence the same type of tactic KTP used... You guys are using it to make sure you defend your chances to BUILD SYs on the island!!!
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-Brocko
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dangerdann

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Re: Is the Dark Seas island shoppe mechanic viable? Reply to this Post
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That being said, all of this will become less relevant when new islands are released.


A great point, but at the same time, the advantage is on the side of those who have had exclusive SY shoppe access on Magpie & Loggerhead. This is 3 flags in total I think? Two outposts, with SYs on them, could be a partial solution in terms of rotation but there's a big risk of those islands becoming a fallback option for the flags with the bigger fleets.


I would agree that none of this is perfect whilst there are only two islands operational, and if there are to be only two islands for an extended period of time, I would suggest a temporary change.

I suppose my point is that, should the ocean open new islands, I believe that the mechanic would work on a bigger and more sparse ocean, population dependant of course.
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Dangerdann on Cerulean/Emerald
Blighty on Obsidian

Elitist1 wrote: 
And on the stage steps yet another puppet ../ cues Dann sing it !

[May 14, 2018 2:49:08 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Tierios



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Re: Is the Dark Seas island shoppe mechanic viable? Reply to this Post
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I'm not saying the scuttle mechanic is a bad mechanic, I'm saying you used it in a way to not have to defend at all, we have scuttled to give us a break from player kades for a week and bring new navvers in. You scuttled because you wanted the hardest BK to do your defensive duties with no thought of to what it may do. You would've subjected Loggerhead to 100% tax so that you could build ships for a couple more weeks without being kaded against. If you had scuttled with the intention to defend I could respect that, as that gives you a chance to field those new navvers you apparently scuttled for. I apologize for getting this thread sidetracked and will withdraw from the conversation not directly relating to this this post.
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Scar On Obsidian Ocean
[May 14, 2018 3:07:26 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: Is the Dark Seas island shoppe mechanic viable? Reply to this Post
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TLDR: Its an interesting twist and I hope it stays, perhaps increase the dust time, and or make the Governor invest something in shutting it down (the rent is a joke and not a loss).

Ignoring all the back and forth and who is bigger then who.

I think the mechanic was a great addition in an attempt to get shop keepers involved in the kade scene. Issue is there isn't much point in opening a Shop unless you have the funds to help defend the island... That said in 1-2 years it would work, or on Emerald it would work, however Obsidian is a fairly broke ocean in comparison.

Not sure how many shop keepers want to risk sinking their load or being robbed of the goods, or having the shop shut down. The ocean itself is very harsh on one who wants to do shops as their primary activity, they can adjust but many are used to soloing MB's ect...

The issue with out allowing the mechanic to shut down shops and dust would have the potential to back fire, as the shop limit is set/island/size.

It is an interesting twist and will calm down when everyone isn't racing to build WF's but right now everyone has just shut down the shops, where a bribe could be paid ect...

As far as Jobbing (for me personally as someone who doesn't care much about Obsidian at this point and has zero loyalty to anyone) CIS, had a better video/intent, and that Station Competition was amazing, win or lose it was fun to see how you stack up.... (/e notice most of the winners were on brigs to late).
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
Filthyjake6145 (discord)

Want Kade Support post a intent....

Who would have ever thought there would be a more worthless familiar then the Krackling's? But now we have owls that are farm raised.
[May 14, 2018 4:51:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
lady_maeror

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Re: Is the Dark Seas island shoppe mechanic viable? Reply to this Post
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Despite my personal involvement in the discussion between Pika and those against him, I'm absolutely agreeing with the OP this time.

I would love outposts to open up so I can eventually run a distillery shoppe, at the moment if I were to try and convince my flag to get one if we have an island, they and the rest of the ocean would incarcerate me alive. It's so silly that we are boxed into having the few free spots monopolized by SY and the only issue people have is who owns them.

The bigger picture is that we need new islands, large and outpost, to bring diversity. We also need the 4 week dusting to be changed to some degree. So much time spent with shoppes inactive is such a waste (regardless of who controls it!)

(Written on my iPhone whilst at work, sorry for errors)
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Aeyelle of the Viridian Meridian Ocean
Arianne of the Obsidian Ocean
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by lady_maeror at May 15, 2018 6:09:34 AM]
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Captholland



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Re: Is the Dark Seas island shoppe mechanic viable? Reply to this Post
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i disagree with this topic. there is way more on the line. before owning an island didnt have an advantage. now it has. we just need large islands for more shoppes. this is just the beginning
[May 15, 2018 3:25:41 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
lady_maeror

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Re: Is the Dark Seas island shoppe mechanic viable? Reply to this Post
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i disagree with this topic. there is way more on the line. before owning an island didnt have an advantage. now it has. we just need large islands for more shoppes. this is just the beginning


How long until large islands are released hmm? What if it's say... another 6 months? Do you think the player base will survive then without any definitive updates and with the crappy and sketchy communication between developers and players as is? I doubt it.

If we are stuck with the same two islands being the only ones we can fight for, for another 6 months - a year, well then we need to change this.
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Aeyelle of the Viridian Meridian Ocean
Arianne of the Obsidian Ocean
[May 15, 2018 6:12:34 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Re: Is the Dark Seas island shoppe mechanic viable? Reply to this Post
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A "simple" fix for medium and out post islands would be to have a shop change hands almost immediately. After exactly 3 days after a blockade, the shop should be reset to a brand-new status, clearing everything in the hold, the order queue, the furniture props, everything.

The three days would give the loser a chance to finish things up while letting the winner prepare for the change over. This would work fine for shipyards making ships, or other really simple shop configurations. If you won an island, you would know that you would have the shops for at least a week.

(I'm quoting myself here)

I think it is important to point out that this idea addresses problems with outpost islands on all oceans. On most oceans, outpost shops aren't that big of a deal, but If any outposts are opened up on Obsidian, these problems will be huge.

Right now, when an outpost is taken, the shop deed is immediately given to the new governor, even if there are products in the queue. Thee products, mostly ships, were paid for before the blockade, but now the shop is under someone else's control. The old flag can jam up the queue, preventing the new flag from using the shop. Either flag can drain the escrow PoE by hiring super-high paid employees (i.e. themselves) thus making the jammed up queue worse.

By giving the old flag a few days to finish up and by resetting the whole shop, most of these problems can be avoided.

So, yeah, I think the current shop mechanics are bad for outposts, and bad for medium islands on Obsidian.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[May 15, 2018 6:29:10 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
joshuawhelan

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By giving the old flag a few days to finish up and by resetting the whole shop, most of these problems can be avoided.


I really like this idea, prevents sabotage and solves the problems.


For the people who agree with the mechanic, do you also feel the 4 week closure period is correct amount of time?
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Prammy16

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For the people who agree with the mechanic, do you also feel the 4 week closure period is correct amount of time?


Yeah. Less time would make it much harder to raise funds to take it back, more time would be a waste.
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-Porglit on Emerald
-Shadetemplar on Obsidian
[May 16, 2018 10:30:37 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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For the people who agree with the mechanic, do you also feel the 4 week closure period is correct amount of time?
Yeah. Less time would make it much harder to raise funds to take it back, more time would be a waste.
should the same mechanism be done on outposts then? After all, there are currently problems with outposts.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
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Thunderbird

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My personal thoughts about the dusting mechanic:

*Shop dusting period should be reduced to 2 weeks.
*If a BK drops on an island, any shops that were closed by the governor should reopen and not be able to be closed by the governor until the BK threat has passed.
*If an event blockade is scheduled so that it conflicts with the blockade window, same deal as a BK drop: All force-closed shops should reopen and be unable to be force-closed until the event blockade is over.
*If a BK takes an island with an event blockade scheduled, they should cancel the event blockade (whether or not it conflicts with the blockade window). This is to prevent the above item from conflicting with a BK wanting to close shops.

Items 2 and 3 will prevent flags from using BK scuttle shields and event blockades to ensure they keep a hold of the island until closed shops dust.
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Pirate tells you, "my, that's one BIG wad o' chewing gum ye have mounted on yer bonce! oO'"
Sungod officer chats, "I wonder if anyone's sailing the harpsichord"
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[May 20, 2018 11:41:33 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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