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Lotus_elise3

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Hunting v Arranged - The PvP Debate Reply to this Post
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I'm posting this having spent the last 20mins debating the issue of arranged sinking pvps v hunting innocent/unaware individuals for sinking pvps.

I know the argument has been made, and it certainly has an element of truth to it, that sinking new players on their ships will have a negative impact on the game and cause said individuals to go and play something else. That hunting sinks and especially newer looking players is "bad for the game."

But my counter argument is this, for those of us who really enjoy sinking pvps, organising arranged ones is a very tedious endeavour. You both have to spend time finding semi-elite jobbers to join your ship for the battle, both have agreed to and are aware the pvp is going to happen, both deport together and engage. Then, after about 100 turns because the navers and the puzzlers are about equal, someone *might* make a mistake and get sunk. Or both parties agree to disengage because it's going nowhere. This situation is most prevelant in 7v7's and 6v6's but I've seen even 2v2's go for similar lengths of time.

My point is this, arranged pvps are "sterile" there's no real excitement to them and most people involved with arranged describe mostly negative experiences of never ending puzzling with little action or reward.

With hunting, you get the thrill of the chase, trying to guess which way the opposition boat has sailed on the 2-3 routes available to them from whatever island they were last seen near. The wait for them to finish battle, staying away from LP's to avoid them seeing you and sitting or abandoning.

Even the pvp itself can be more exciting, one party trying desperately to escape whether by duty naving to avoid the engage, or running in battle to get the disengage or grappling you. You make desperate decisions and risky moves to take shots in order to land some and avoid them having the opportunity to disengage. In some cases they get away in others they get sunk.

As someone who actively hunts pvps I compare arranged and hunted to Lion's in the wild. Arranged is basically two Lion's who think they are better than the other and want to really test themselves, they know the battle is about to happen, they both have ego and reputation at stake.

Hunting pvps is effectively like watching the Lion stealthily track the gazelle, the gazelle is unaware of the impending battle coming it's way. The lion has the size and strength advantage (in our case a more experienced naver, maybe 1-2 jobbers extra or equal numbers but better puzzlers) and the element of surprise. The thrill of the chase leading up to the pvp and during the pvp itself are a different kind of enjoyment than what is available in arranged pvp imo.

I get that new players could be put off the game by being hunted frequently but I also argue this could also help to improve the level pvp navers on the ocean and improve the awareness/competency of newer officers sailing for the first time in sinking waters.

Don't get me wrong, I do participate in arranged pvps as well and they are more like a game of chess. But the additional parts involved in a hunt make it so much more enjoyable for me personally.

I don't only pvp new people either, me and Inglorious Basterds hunt what we can find or fill for, regardless of experience of naver. Or in some cases not fill for. (See recent pvp records in which myself and 3 or 4 others on a War Brig pvp'd Lethalx and 15-16 on a Merchant Brig) it just happens lesser experienced officers are more in abundance on the open waters.

I'm interested to hear people's views on this issue. It does feel there are a few people who attach a negative connotation to hunting sinks. Also! Remember people can sail in safe waters, learn from their mistakes (don't go out undermanned) dnav to outmanoeuvre, grapple or disengage when on the defensive end.

*Side note: Jake please do not use this thread to rant about owl abuse. I promise not to do the same about Pika.
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A Confirmed Basterd, Antix
Of Guerrilla Warfare 2018 fame

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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Lotus_elise3 at Mar 20, 2018 6:39:37 PM]
[Mar 20, 2018 6:27:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: Hunting v Arranged - The PvP Debate Reply to this Post
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Side note: Jake please do not use this thread to rant about owl abuse. I promise not to do the same about Pika
.

I don't give a hoot, Pika makes it rain xP.

I think the hunt was great fun, I loved the long pvp battles where i would hop from sails to carp, back to sails, to tire out the other crew. Yes the navers often take the glory but I am happy to out sail and out carp the other sailors and other carpers. For me its a challenge and a great honor when the naver pulls up knowing they will be trading but have faith in the carps. Its a great rush and a great appeal to the game. I also enjoyed the arranged fair battles, not the WF vs sloop ones. Again its two equally matched teams fighting, yes they go long and pay nothing sometimes its a tip from the captain.

That said their is no real motivation to do either of them. I really think at this point where the ocean is removing the pvp "focus" would be best for the game, its not real, not beating the dead horse but we all know its not, the War tab is a fallacy, the pvp wins and losses are recorded in minutes represent nothing. I honestly miss it a great deal and am very passionate about it. I think it added a level of the game to the experienced higher end elite players. The issue is really that its not going to grow the game, people don't come in high end elite, they come in green and broke.

Is their a way to make the ocean appeal to both and allow the new to train, perhaps, it would be nice if the area was larger then 19LP, and paid something, 500 poe a battle is lame. For a new broke player it seems unreachable to even buy a ship at that pay, then you pass the island and its sunk I would quit too.

People can't play this ocean the same way they did the old ocean if you want to move a MB solo your gona lose it or a good chunk of stock its the way the game was made to work... Ya people need to be retrained and let go of the old ways the old strategies.

People can hate me for the stance I made on owls but not really anyone who asked me to come help pvp I never turned down the invites down, because I do love it I find found it the best part of the New Ocean, after being 100% opposed to it.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Filthyjake at Mar 20, 2018 8:36:52 PM]
[Mar 20, 2018 7:11:25 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Tomanomanous

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Re: Hunting v Arranged - The PvP Debate Reply to this Post
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I am 100% on the hunting players who are unprepared for it is bad for the game train. That being said, if a player has the resources to afford the loss and not be set back too far, then it is a bit better.

I think if you want to hunt random people, grapple, don't sink. Careless sinking is the part that is bad for the game. Sure you can tell people to learn a new strategy, but here is the thing, a lot of people just don't enjoy that part of the game. It is exactly the same if you removed all the herbivorous, eventually the carnivores hunt themselves to extinction. You have to cater for both groups, not tell one group to try to be different, because that will just make them leave, then there will ONLY be arranged sinks, because there will be noone to hunt.

As for arranged PvPs, sorry to hijack the thread with one of my suggestions, but I firmly believe that there is a better way to do PvP, that would be more thrilling, attract a new audience, and hopefully if it works, provide some degree of variety in PvP battles. Basically matchmaking for PvP.

So I think the solution here isn't to ask an ethical question on Hunting vs Arranged, because if you are for Hunting, you are potentially hurting the game for newer or poorer players, and if you are for Arranged, you are limiting the fun of existing players. So yea, if Hunters focused on grappling and there was some alternative to Arranged, as in the suggestion above, I feel like that goes a long way to resolve the debate. So that is my stance on the PvP debate.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Tomanomanous at Mar 20, 2018 8:46:59 PM]
[Mar 20, 2018 8:43:53 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kyura94

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Re: Hunting v Arranged - The PvP Debate Reply to this Post
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@Filthyjake
Filthyjake wrote: 
People can hate me for the stance I made on owls but not really anyone who asked me to come help pvp I never turned down the invites down, because I do love it I find found it the best part of the New Ocean, after being 100% opposed to it.
Only saying this because I hope you come to realise it: No one hated you for your stance. If anything, it was your endless flow of emotionally-charged posts, wherein you just lashed out over your precious trinkets being rendered less precious. You weren't really on the forums for a discussion; just to assert one viewpoint and rant about your trinkets' value. That turns people off.

@topic
To me, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the scout-hunt-sink, even that of beginner officers. When venturing beyond greywaters you inherently absorb the risks and rewards of Obsidian. You could stay in GW and have pillies, do TH and Forage, snipe merchants etc. Alternatively, you could opt to risk your ship and move beyond, in pursuit of higher payouts. Just like SMHs or Kades, the most rewarding aspects are embedded with sinky risks. Sounds fair to me.

Many people throw in the argument that "not everyone likes PvP", and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. You don't have to like it, you just have to be okay with the fact that it's part of the Obsidian system.

Likely controversial, but my general thoughts are: No one owes it to you to spare your vulnerable ship, or even settle for a grapple. They won't get their shipdesign/uglywolverine/owl that way. The ocean was designed a particular way, and alternative oceans exist if you don't like this design. If you're active on Obsidian but a PvP attack makes you quit, then kudos to the attacker because you've now learnt that Obsidian isn't for you - it honestly never was.

sidenote: I won't comment on the longevity of the oceans. I see little meaning in commenting on an Early Access game's lifespan. Just sharing my thoughts on the whole Hunt Vs Arranged.
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[Mar 20, 2018 9:18:20 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Prammy16

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Re: Hunting v Arranged - The PvP Debate Reply to this Post
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Only saying this because I hope you come to realise it: No one hated you for your stance. If anything, it was your endless flow of emotionally-charged posts, wherein you just lashed out over your precious trinkets being rendered less precious. You weren't really on the forums for a discussion; just to assert one viewpoint and rant about your trinkets' value. That turns people off.


Exactly this. Believe it or not, I was also upset about the exploit that devalued entirely what I thought would be a valuable addition to the game: actual exclusive content only gained through lots of hard work in real PVPs. I just wanted absolutely nothing to do with the way you (FilthyJake) presented yourself in each post, and that literally every thread got flooded by posts derailing actual discussions to whine continually about owls.

I agreed with you, but wanted badly to not align myself with your demeanor.
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[Mar 21, 2018 7:28:10 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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The Debate is not about Jake! Reply to this Post
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Antix, I apologize I stayed on topic but if people are going to derail your thread/topic by addressing me I will respond, to their comments.

 
 
Only saying this because I hope you come to realise it: No one hated you for your stance. If anything, it was your endless flow of emotionally-charged posts, wherein you just lashed out over your precious trinkets being rendered less precious. You weren't really on the forums for a discussion; just to assert one viewpoint and rant about your trinkets' value. That turns people off.


Exactly this. Believe it or not, I was also upset about the exploit that devalued entirely what I thought would be a valuable addition to the game: actual exclusive content only gained through lots of hard work in real PVPs. I just wanted absolutely nothing to do with the way you (FilthyJake) presented yourself in each post, and that literally every thread got flooded by posts derailing actual discussions to whine continually about owls.

I agreed with you, but wanted badly to not align myself with your demeanor.


So, what are you doing to stay on topic? Or am I going to be blamed again for derailing another post because you guys seem to want to address me not the topic. Only 1 poster including the OP didn't mention my name... ya I am the problem, carry on.

If I am playing with in the TOS and Forum Rules, you can live with it just like I have too. I have yet to have a Forum Post Locked as for you claims Rehashing the same issue because the post were all different parts of the development process. Seeing that PVP is a central part of the ocean the topic and reward system also should be a central part of the conversation regarding the ocean.

Any way pleas lets continue on the topic of Hunting v Arranged.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Filthyjake at Mar 21, 2018 11:07:57 AM]
[Mar 21, 2018 7:41:44 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
arg60455

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I think a simple solution could be to add a sinking/non-sinking toggle. When someone is preparing for a pilly they can put a toggle of whether or not they are open to a sinking or non sinking pvp. They could still be hunted, and the winning ship would gain a reduced bounty, but if someone doesn't want to lose a ship they don't have to.

Imagine if someone is super excited to find this game and goes to town saving up to buy their first sloop, and the second they leave the port for their first time someone just happens to see them there and battles them and sinks them.
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BHorror

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I think a simple solution could be to add a sinking/non-sinking toggle. When someone is preparing for a pilly they can put a toggle of whether or not they are open to a sinking or non sinking pvp. They could still be hunted, and the winning ship would gain a reduced bounty, but if someone doesn't want to lose a ship they don't have to.


One of the key factors advertised about obsidian was always sinking all the time. If you give people the option over sinking vs non-sinking, they never had incentive to turn it on really.
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[Mar 21, 2018 11:35:56 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: Hunting v Arranged - The PvP Debate Reply to this Post
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I think a simple solution could be to add a sinking/non-sinking toggle. When someone is preparing for a pilly they can put a toggle of whether or not they are open to a sinking or non sinking pvp. They could still be hunted, and the winning ship would gain a reduced bounty, but if someone doesn't want to lose a ship they don't have to.


One of the key factors advertised about obsidian was always sinking all the time. If you give people the option over sinking vs non-sinking, they never had incentive to turn it on really.


I agree with Bhorror on shutting it off, but think we need to appeal to both groups of players, I really think increasing the size of gray waters could help tremendously, making it so people can get a little bit better pay, maybe the greedies and even have arranged or pvp hunting battles that end in sink (such as non sinking flotilla) with a haul? in place of grapple. Never tried to sink someone in the non-sinky waters what happens? Would love to see a wager board likes SF where ships could fight and the bet is made and paid by game mechanic (more arranged) but I love the hunt... .
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
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Prammy16

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Re: Hunting v Arranged - The PvP Debate Reply to this Post
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Imagine if someone is super excited to find this game and goes to town saving up to buy their first sloop, and the second they leave the port for their first time someone just happens to see them there and battles them and sinks them.


Isn't the whole point of Greywater to give greenies a place to start off without getting sunk? I'm not convinced the whole ocean should change around greenies having the ability to play out of their depth, especially when there's a place specifically designed for them to be able to work on their experience before taking on the dangerous waters.
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[Mar 21, 2018 12:46:23 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Opsat



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Re: Hunting v Arranged - The PvP Debate Reply to this Post
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That one time I was sunk, I was just memming. :P There were two of them vs. one of me. Took me by surprise. I tried to run, but failed.
I get puzzle vision sometimes when I mem. :P I already got engaged (maybe) twice by brigands/barbarians on that trip because I failed to turn about in time. This time, though, I wondered why the other ship was red. Turned out it was a PvP. :P
Later, I saw the pirate who attacked me at the docks. He said he was trying out PvP, and since our encounter, has learned that you don't always have to try to sink the other ship. He said that with grappling, you can get the booty if you win, without having to sink the other ship. Interesting. I didn't know that either, and it's good to know. :)

Nowadays, when I try to mem outside of Greywaters, I just put up an afk message "trying to mem" and hope for the best. :) I also /w before I set off to check if there are any ships in the area I might need to look out for. And I suppose, if I do get engaged in a PvP, I can try to grapple so I won't get sunk. :)

This IS a PvP ocean after all, so I think it's fair that people should always expect that it can happen.

If anything is to be changed or added, maybe, instead of a sinking/non-sinking toggle, the "attack player vessels" checkbox on the configure voyage should be a "PvP welcome" checkbox or something instead, and clicking on the approaching ship will show you if they have that box checked or not. They can still be attacked, they can still be sunk. If you still choose to attack a ship that doesn't have that box checked, maybe this is where the reduced bounty (etc.) can come in. There should be more benefit for you in attacking ships that welcome PvP vs. attacking ships that don't.

And also, it might help if there is a warning when ships go beyond Greywaters that says they can try to grapple if they don't want to get sunk in a PvP. I don't know if everybody knows that. I sure didn't. :P
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Opsat on all oceans.
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[Mar 21, 2018 12:53:25 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lotus_elise3

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Re: The Debate is not about Jake! Reply to this Post
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One thing that would be intriguing to track is how many new players actually do leave the game after being sunk. As someone who actively hunts I would say most people I've sunk I still see on the docks or out sailing in sinking waters to this day, suggesting that most do stick around.

The difficulty I guess is what we define as a "new player" that's a challenging definition to actually measure in any way. Is that someone who has been playing for a few weeks? Someone who has played for months and is taking a ship out for the first time?

If someone attacked me and sank my sloop back when I started on Midnight in 2005 I would have been gutted as I'd spent ages earning the PoE and being trained as an officer. But I enjoyed so many other aspects of the game (and still do) I feel like I would have stuck around regardless.
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I also think that hunting is part of the game, and should remain like that. Greywaters are there for a reason, and maybe there's stuff that needs fixing (queue a screenshot of 4 ships waiting on the same leaguepoint), but I don't think removing the possibility of hunting is one of them.

What makes PvP terribly boring and long sometimes, specially arranged ones since they tend to be equally matched, needs to be addressed separately in my opinion. But as Tomanomanous said, there have been suggestions on that area, like his thread and mine about permanent damage.

And frankly, I seriously doubt that a new player getting a new ship and sailing out of the greywaters without knowing the risks, then getting hunted and actually sunk, is something that happens often. I would be surprised if that even happened more than once, since I haven't met a single really new player in obsidian, and if I had, I bet they would be advised by other players
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Anzak1

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Re: Hunting v Arranged - The PvP Debate Reply to this Post
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I am 100% on the hunting players who are unprepared for it is bad for the game train. That being said, if a player has the resources to afford the loss and not be set back too far, then it is a bit better.

I think if you want to hunt random people, grapple, don't sink. Careless sinking is the part that is bad for the game. Sure you can tell people to learn a new strategy, but here is the thing, a lot of people just don't enjoy that part of the game. It is exactly the same if you removed all the herbivorous, eventually the carnivores hunt themselves to extinction. You have to cater for both groups, not tell one group to try to be different, because that will just make them leave, then there will ONLY be arranged sinks, because there will be noone to hunt.

As for arranged PvPs, sorry to hijack the thread with one of my suggestions, but I firmly believe that there is a better way to do PvP, that would be more thrilling, attract a new audience, and hopefully if it works, provide some degree of variety in PvP battles. Basically matchmaking for PvP.

So I think the solution here isn't to ask an ethical question on Hunting vs Arranged, because if you are for Hunting, you are potentially hurting the game for newer or poorer players, and if you are for Arranged, you are limiting the fun of existing players. So yea, if Hunters focused on grappling and there was some alternative to Arranged, as in the suggestion above, I feel like that goes a long way to resolve the debate. So that is my stance on the PvP debate.


As it stands with owls nerfed, there aren't many PvPs out generally. That being said, you being hunted and sunk multiple times has influenced your opinion. Disengages are not hard to manage, save for a bad starting position or running an undermanned ship, the latter of which is easily corrected for. As Antix already said, if you want to evade PvPs entirely go grind at duty nav until you're good. The game itself isn't catering to PvPs at the moment in the least really, and is operating in the traditional manner it always has, so I don't really see your contention with the herbivorous and carnivorous metaphor. Closing off PvP to only those who wanted it would erode a good deal of the game which has always existed. If people don't want to sink, play in safe waters, go for disengages, and make sure your boat is filled. Maybe there's good reason you can't just start out and get a ship and chart into the sinking areas.
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[Mar 21, 2018 4:53:34 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Tomanomanous

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Re: The Debate is not about Jake! Reply to this Post
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One thing that would be intriguing to track is how many new players actually do leave the game after being sunk. As someone who actively hunts I would say most people I've sunk I still see on the docks or out sailing in sinking waters to this day, suggesting that most do stick around.

The difficulty I guess is what we define as a "new player" that's a challenging definition to actually measure in any way. Is that someone who has been playing for a few weeks? Someone who has played for months and is taking a ship out for the first time?

If someone attacked me and sank my sloop back when I started on Midnight in 2005 I would have been gutted as I'd spent ages earning the PoE and being trained as an officer. But I enjoyed so many other aspects of the game (and still do) I feel like I would have stuck around regardless.


I know that as a result of many of my flaggies being targeted, quite a few started playing a lot less after being repeatedly attacked (we did our best to cover the cost of their only ships sinking, but things like that strain our resources to do things like run events). Also things like having a WB pilly (we had trivia going as well), then getting in an hour long PvP, just to disengage, has pretty much ruined any desire for a few people (myself included) to bother with regular pillys or trivia pillys. I don't know how many people left purely because of that, but there are certainly less around now than there were before we were being targeted (gone dormant).

 
As it stands with owls nerfed, there aren't many PvPs out generally. That being said, you being hunted and sunk multiple times has influenced your opinion. Disengages are not hard to manage, save for a bad starting position or running an undermanned ship, the latter of which is easily corrected for. As Antix already said, if you want to evade PvPs entirely go grind at duty nav until you're good. The game itself isn't catering to PvPs at the moment in the least really, and is operating in the traditional manner it always has, so I don't really see your contention with the herbivorous and carnivorous metaphor. Closing off PvP to only those who wanted it would erode a good deal of the game which has always existed. If people don't want to sink, play in safe waters, go for disengages, and make sure your boat is filled. Maybe there's good reason you can't just start out and get a ship and chart into the sinking areas.


I am excellent at duty nav, thats what my duty report tells me at least. I have no issues evading in Bnav (but when the other ship is better staffed and producing more moves, you can only do so much), I have personally been sunk twice I believe, both times whilst meming, getting excellent on the DR.

The herbivore and carnivore metaphor is entirely relevant, I am not saying 'oh don't hurt the herbivores', I am saying that if you constantly go after them, they will eventually be gone and you will be left with only Arranged PvPs. I am not saying PvP is bad, its just that this post is a debate about which system is better. I was trying to provide an example as to why both are flawed, and using the metaphor to show why responsible PvP and not indiscriminately sinking people is the only way to keep PvP sustainable.

As said above, I know a lot of people in my flag just don't go out anymore, so that is not only loss in people running things, but it is already a loss of people to target in PvP.

I didn't say to close off PvP either, I was actually saying to expand upon PvP by introducing something new, faster paced, where you can sink people as much as you like, so that those people interested in PvP who don't want to be out there harassing players trying to have fun, have a platform where not only can they PvP, but they can be matched in PvP with people around their skill level.
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Tomanomanous - Princess of Fresh and Bold on Obsidian
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Tomanomanous at Mar 21, 2018 5:30:03 PM]
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Filthyjake

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As it stands with owls nerfed, there aren't many PvPs out generally.


Hmm the chicken or the egg argument. Is it because the owls were nerffed, or that people just sunk them selves and the value of pvp was lost. As far as not many pvp's out your probably right. after all why work when a WF is currently loading to give the reward out for free, sinking a sloop providing the ocean 225 trinkets, I got a tell saying why not do this I get 3 trinkets.

PvP as a legitimate part of the game is pushed back to where it was months ago, Why would people fight back. Yes the attackers love the hunt/or/create a match and the war is fun the challenge is extreme. Current PvP environment is the equivalent to a flag sit, not fun the reward is there and in the end no one really cares to job on a flag sit.
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[Mar 21, 2018 5:46:13 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
elbeejay

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Opsat wrote: 
That one time I was sunk, I was just memming. :P There were two of them vs. one of me.


I think the biggest problem with these situations is the fact that 2 pirates on a sloop could engage 1. Might rings work as intended for the most part, but I feel like they really break down at the low end, I know I've been out soloing and seen sloops with 4 pirates appear green to me (which I assume means I appear green to them as well).

To address the larger point, I find arranged PvPs incredibly boring because they always take forever. I haven't been on in a month or two (no Linux support...) but I think the only thing I'd wanted to see was PvP hunters being a bit more selective in their targets. When I'm out with 2 or 3 people on a fanchuan then I think coming out to PvP me makes some good sense -I'm undermanned and so a battle would have an end in sight. When a full sloop is out for a pillage... you are just signing up for an endless PvP if you go and fight 'em. I don't see the value in this for either side, and it generally becomes a waste of time for everyone involved. I say this as someone that has been on both sides of that equation over the years and it is not a worthwhile battle to have. But this was something I was hoping folks would realize after the initial shine of engaging everything in sight wore off.

I am hopeful that the long battles are a social issue that will shift once people start gauging the time/reward balance when thinking about PvPing. Tomanomanous provided an example of exactly the situation I'm describing, which unfortunately flies in the face of my belief that these pointless engagements would end.

Tomanomanous wrote: 
Also things like having a WB pilly (we had trivia going as well), then getting in an hour long PvP, just to disengage,


I'm assuming trivia is an indication of a well staffed ship, but even otherwise the fact that the battle went on for an hour (just to disengage) is ridiculous. This is consistent however, with some of the other problems in the game (i.e. loading times) where player time is not appropriately valued from a gameplay stance.
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[Mar 21, 2018 6:33:42 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lotus_elise3

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I know that as a result of many of my flaggies being targeted, quite a few started playing a lot less after being repeatedly attacked (we did our best to cover the cost of their only ships sinking, but things like that strain our resources to do things like run events). Also things like having a WB pilly (we had trivia going as well), then getting in an hour long PvP, just to disengage, has pretty much ruined any desire for a few people (myself included) to bother with regular pillys or trivia pillys. I don't know how many people left purely because of that, but there are certainly less around now than there were before we were being targeted (gone dormant).


That's the problem we don't *really* know the numbers to say hunting pvps is killing the game. People go dormant for a variety of reasons and unless they explicitly inform a crew member they are going dormant for X reason, we can never be sure.

Mixed in with this there is "natural wastage" people who just quit because this isn't the game for them. In a world where the free online games market is already over saturated, unless you really enjoy puzzling or the social aspect of this game I think it's probably difficult to retain new players generally. I don't believe people being hunted is to blame for decreased numbers.
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Filthyjake

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I know that as a result of many of my flaggies being targeted, quite a few started playing a lot less after being repeatedly attacked (we did our best to cover the cost of their only ships sinking, but things like that strain our resources to do things like run events). Also things like having a WB pilly (we had trivia going as well), then getting in an hour long PvP, just to disengage, has pretty much ruined any desire for a few people (myself included) to bother with regular pillys or trivia pillys. I don't know how many people left purely because of that, but there are certainly less around now than there were before we were being targeted (gone dormant).


That's the problem we don't *really* know the numbers to say hunting pvps is killing the game. People go dormant for a variety of reasons and unless they explicitly inform a crew member they are going dormant for X reason, we can never be sure.

Mixed in with this there is "natural wastage" people who just quit because this isn't the game for them. In a world where the free online games market is already over saturated, unless you really enjoy puzzling or the social aspect of this game I think it's probably difficult to retain new players generally. I don't believe people being hunted is to blame for decreased numbers.

Go to Emerald ask in global, Kromf Sassydevo are two I have had convo's with personally.
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Murcatto

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Hmm, this is a subject I've clashed on with one of my hearties, he's hugely into his PVP but with the downside that he becomes very emotionally charged when he loses. I suppose we all do to an extent as it does feel like something of a personal experience and one or two decisions can ordinarily swing it, so you can beat yourself up over that.

With him, as he's passionate about that area of the game I don't mind jobbing but when he asks me to go out and actively hunt myself, it's an aspect of the game that has lost its allure for me. I'd tried using screenshots from years ago as an example, of when I did pursue that area of the game. While I understand it's moved on now and the average skill is greater than it was around ?07.

The fact is when you're 2 players, 2 NPCs and you can at a breeze walk through 10 other pirates, what kind of victory is that? At the time I considered it fun, a challenge. A proving of my worth, sometimes even going out with sticks. But the reality is you're picking on players who don't want this, who in the end will ultimately be humiliated by losing with them having that sort of advantage.

It's a subject that will come up now and again in the crew, or on voice chat and I'll cringe when I look back on some the old stuff I kept, but back then it all felt a little bit more important to me, but with a smaller user base I'll often wonder, did I turn an officer against taking a boat out? Did I make someone log off as is the case even with just a dumb swordfight at the brawl table? We have a highly strung userbase at times and while it's not all of our job to try and accommodate every salty personality. It makes you wonder how many we pushed over the edge if they'd been consistently attacked.

I was very fortunate when I began the game, I joined the first crew I jobbed for, they were amazing and they didn't give me immediate promotions. My first forays into Bnav, before I knew ramps or anything, I had a crew of people who would jump from station to station, each of them at least Grand Master in their chosen puzzle with many of them multi-skilled. I had no idea then how blessed I was, yet when I finally learned how to play the game more, I was out with generally one other friend and we'd go out and attack players who had no such luxury, not all of them were entirely inferior puzzlers and there were plenty of rushes when you capture gold back when it was rare from a stock run. To some, that's the name of the game and it's a sentiment I strongly shared, but how much time had been spent gathering that gold? Even if it was only clicking. Something valuable was ripped from their hands.

We're a smaller community now than we've ever been, so the attacks maybe even take on an even more personal feel, it's generally the same names doing it and a lot of the same people being attacked. I see even skilled pirates using a two-player advantage over others just due to how the might ring works. Is that challenging yourself, what's the thrill of the hunt when you're firing a sniper rifle at big game from hundreds of yards away, that's just going through the motions and making it easier on yourself so they can't run. Little or no risk does the attacker hold, yet the defender has absolutely everything. They can be carrying damage, bilge water, leavers and more than likely underperforming players in comparison to the fresh hunters.

We used to have players regularly run undermanned ships, something I'd cite before as bad for the game. I'd considered the risk of PVP a good deterrent to people doing that, but what I failed to realise was: just how many players first began their careers jobbing on an undermanned ship? I'll ashamedly admit that while I'd love to see growth in the game, I continue to mostly just run Wild Seas which sees me mostly take on pirates of a certain skill level. But these "bad" players will go out and run the other routes, taking on anyone. There will come a time where they just stop doing it, then how do we grow? What ships are out for the truly fresh players, we become a circle jerk of veteran players, rum trickling down our beards telling tales of what a real ocean was like, back when pirates were pirates. But you need all types of players in this game, otherwise, it does become quite bare. It's the beautiful mix of personalities which has made this community so strong for so long.

Since this ocean has begun I've been attacked in PVP once, two other times I know of I've been actively hunted but managed to avoid. I'm 5th on the experience list so I'm out pillaging quite frequently. While I'll probably now find it tedious that someone will try to PVP me to post an amusing screenie in the thread, what I'm getting at is I'm out frequently enough and I go unchallenged, not because of any reputation or anything, I've been spanked in PVP also, but because the time and effort required for the fight isn't really worth anyone's time.

If I'm pillaging Wild Seas, I'm likely to run as I'm defending booty gained and wouldn't risk my jobbers? spoils. Most of the time with the crew I'll ordinarily have onboard, I should be able to outrun and get away. So the attacker has wasted his time, his jobbers? and ours. That's sort of what PVP can boil down to now, for the most part. It's not about the challenge, or the victory, or the useless faction trinkets.

It's paramount to just griefing someone, you'll force them to port, which is an understandable tactic if you're trying to hurt a flag. GG you've won, but I will see even when people lose or a disengage happens. They immediately load up another ship and go again. So even if you spend the overly long amount of time, looking for that beautiful mistake. You're going to have to keep going through the motions and the jobbers on your ship are mostly around for the PVE environment in this instance, they gain so little from PVP.

For a game that sometimes needs a good bit of time before you'll begin earning some Poe in the battles, bearing in mind jobbing waits etc it's pretty un-fun to then have to port as you'll have a never ending circle of pvps to deal with. I'm no angel in any of this myself. I've gone out and attacked people in retribution for attacks on my crew, for a strongly worded comment, or just in general because I could and that's the unfair aspect of the hunt for me. Nearly all of the PVPs I have done out of some sort of malice, I'm out hurting another player?s playtime, for what? Does it make me big, bad and dangerous to know? No, it just gets me a reputation as an annoyance, someone who picks on the weak and hopes others don't go for me.


I witnessed very heated debates on faction vs faction attack and how to treat people early in the ocean. These debates involved players with very large reputations. The Dark Side was nothing, they were to be crushed under foot. Do not job for them, do not buy from them, do not even entertain the thought of mixing with the enemy. Unless it's (insert dark flag name here), do not touch this flag, they're unofficial allies and they have one player capable of making our flag?s life a misery. As the issue with having a large flag is you leave yourself vulnerable to even that one skilful player, who will make it his life?s work to not actually hurt the higher ups of the flag, or the ones running mostly Wild Seas, but the people who make up the majority of a flag. They'll go out and crucify them and force them to either stop playing, stop running boats, or leave the flag. So it?s not really that it?s a challenge, or exciting to defend an equal opponent. More it?ll be tiresome to deal with.

It's an aspect of the game enjoyed by a small percentile of the userbase, I can imagine why Grey Havens thought it'd be a good idea due to things like CoD or LoL and such. But you generally are pitting a set number of players against players of a similar skill level. This doesn't happen in our oceans as it's a bore, I've seen some of the suggestions to make it more exciting and I do love the damage not going away. But it doesn't fix the core issue that those who aren't really into this part of the game, make up the most of our userbase and they'll be the ones ultimately driven away.

Suggestions on how to fix it would be difficult, as we're a wily userbase in whatever they try to implement. People will usually choose the easiest option over the challenging one. As has been shown for a number of years with how the players operate unchallenged in some instances.

As for arranged, I agree sterile and a bit of a bore, but they'd be the same if you were hunting a similar level of opponent too. They'd just more than likely choose to evade due to the contents of their ship. Plus the more chance of someone having time, the more likely they are to get a better level of puzzler which can sway the fight from being about the nav, to who has the better puzzlers and can win the exchanges.

I've rambled on a bit with this, I won't critique anyone for choosing whichever way they play the game within the confines of the rules. That's up to them, you have to get your enjoyment from it first and foremost. But for me, it has just got far more cons to it than pros.

Slight edit - One thing to consider while people continue to attack in Grey Waters in Hunting PVP's

Does End, Jonthecarper, Side, Guantanamo seek out Able swordfighters to challenge themselves?

Is it more exciting as a sailor when Geologist comes aboard to challenge how you'll do, when Dyrbar used to go on a ship I'd instantly want to bilge better.

There is something to be said for challenging yourself and a curious want when you just seemingly want to steamroll opposition. What is the benefit? I take no huge enjoyment topping a Viking Expo, but in fantasy land. Imagine I beat Krull, now that's something I could feel proud of.
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Solitude
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Murcatto at Mar 22, 2018 9:11:50 AM]
[Mar 22, 2018 8:31:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
mouse2cat

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Re: Hunting v Arranged - The PvP Debate Reply to this Post
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Hmm, this is a subject I've clashed on with one of my hearties, he's hugely into his PVP but with the downside that he becomes very emotionally charged when he loses. I suppose we all do to an extent as it does feel like something of a personal experience and one or two decisions can ordinarily swing it, so you can beat yourself up over that.

With him, as he's passionate about that area of the game I don't mind jobbing but when he asks me to go out and actively hunt myself, it's an aspect of the game that has lost its allure for me. I'd tried using screenshots from years ago as an example, of when I did pursue that area of the game. While I understand it's moved on now and the average skill is greater than it was around ?07.

The fact is when you're 2 players, 2 NPCs and you can at a breeze walk through 10 other pirates, what kind of victory is that? At the time I considered it fun, a challenge. A proving of my worth, sometimes even going out with sticks. But the reality is you're picking on players who don't want this, who in the end will ultimately be humiliated by losing with them having that sort of advantage.

It's a subject that will come up now and again in the crew, or on voice chat and I'll cringe when I look back on some the old stuff I kept, but back then it all felt a little bit more important to me, but with a smaller user base I'll often wonder, did I turn an officer against taking a boat out? Did I make someone log off as is the case even with just a dumb swordfight at the brawl table? We have a highly strung userbase at times and while it's not all of our job to try and accommodate every salty personality. It makes you wonder how many we pushed over the edge if they'd been consistently attacked.

I was very fortunate when I began the game, I joined the first crew I jobbed for, they were amazing and they didn't give me immediate promotions. My first forays into Bnav, before I knew ramps or anything, I had a crew of people who would jump from station to station, each of them at least Grand Master in their chosen puzzle with many of them multi-skilled. I had no idea then how blessed I was, yet when I finally learned how to play the game more, I was out with generally one other friend and we'd go out and attack players who had no such luxury, not all of them were entirely inferior puzzlers and there were plenty of rushes when you capture gold back when it was rare from a stock run. To some, that's the name of the game and it's a sentiment I strongly shared, but how much time had been spent gathering that gold? Even if it was only clicking. Something valuable was ripped from their hands.

We're a smaller community now than we've ever been, so the attacks maybe even take on an even more personal feel, it's generally the same names doing it and a lot of the same people being attacked. I see even skilled pirates using a two-player advantage over others just due to how the might ring works. Is that challenging yourself, what's the thrill of the hunt when you're firing a sniper rifle at big game from hundreds of yards away, that's just going through the motions and making it easier on yourself so they can't run. Little or no risk does the attacker hold, yet the defender has absolutely everything. They can be carrying damage, bilge water, leavers and more than likely underperforming players in comparison to the fresh hunters.

We used to have players regularly run undermanned ships, something I'd cite before as bad for the game. I'd considered the risk of PVP a good deterrent to people doing that, but what I failed to realise was: just how many players first began their careers jobbing on an undermanned ship? I'll ashamedly admit that while I'd love to see growth in the game, I continue to mostly just run Wild Seas which sees me mostly take on pirates of a certain skill level. But these "bad" players will go out and run the other routes, taking on anyone. There will come a time where they just stop doing it, then how do we grow? What ships are out for the truly fresh players, we become a circle jerk of veteran players, rum trickling down our beards telling tales of what a real ocean was like, back when pirates were pirates. But you need all types of players in this game, otherwise, it does become quite bare. It's the beautiful mix of personalities which has made this community so strong for so long.

Since this ocean has begun I've been attacked in PVP once, two other times I know of I've been actively hunted but managed to avoid. I'm 5th on the experience list so I'm out pillaging quite frequently. While I'll probably now find it tedious that someone will try to PVP me to post an amusing screenie in the thread, what I'm getting at is I'm out frequently enough and I go unchallenged, not because of any reputation or anything, I've been spanked in PVP also, but because the time and effort required for the fight isn't really worth anyone's time.

If I'm pillaging Wild Seas, I'm likely to run as I'm defending booty gained and wouldn't risk my jobbers? spoils. Most of the time with the crew I'll ordinarily have onboard, I should be able to outrun and get away. So the attacker has wasted his time, his jobbers? and ours. That's sort of what PVP can boil down to now, for the most part. It's not about the challenge, or the victory, or the useless faction trinkets.

It's paramount to just griefing someone, you'll force them to port, which is an understandable tactic if you're trying to hurt a flag. GG you've won, but I will see even when people lose or a disengage happens. They immediately load up another ship and go again. So even if you spend the overly long amount of time, looking for that beautiful mistake. You're going to have to keep going through the motions and the jobbers on your ship are mostly around for the PVE environment in this instance, they gain so little from PVP.

For a game that sometimes needs a good bit of time before you'll begin earning some Poe in the battles, bearing in mind jobbing waits etc it's pretty un-fun to then have to port as you'll have a never ending circle of pvps to deal with. I'm no angel in any of this myself. I've gone out and attacked people in retribution for attacks on my crew, for a strongly worded comment, or just in general because I could and that's the unfair aspect of the hunt for me. Nearly all of the PVPs I have done out of some sort of malice, I'm out hurting another player?s playtime, for what? Does it make me big, bad and dangerous to know? No, it just gets me a reputation as an annoyance, someone who picks on the weak and hopes others don't go for me.


Thank you! This exactly sums up how I feel.
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[Mar 22, 2018 12:41:52 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.skoonberg.com [Link]  Go to top 
Tomanomanous

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Re: Hunting v Arranged - The PvP Debate Reply to this Post
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I know that as a result of many of my flaggies being targeted, quite a few started playing a lot less after being repeatedly attacked (we did our best to cover the cost of their only ships sinking, but things like that strain our resources to do things like run events). Also things like having a WB pilly (we had trivia going as well), then getting in an hour long PvP, just to disengage, has pretty much ruined any desire for a few people (myself included) to bother with regular pillys or trivia pillys. I don't know how many people left purely because of that, but there are certainly less around now than there were before we were being targeted (gone dormant).


That's the problem we don't *really* know the numbers to say hunting pvps is killing the game. People go dormant for a variety of reasons and unless they explicitly inform a crew member they are going dormant for X reason, we can never be sure.

Mixed in with this there is "natural wastage" people who just quit because this isn't the game for them. In a world where the free online games market is already over saturated, unless you really enjoy puzzling or the social aspect of this game I think it's probably difficult to retain new players generally. I don't believe people being hunted is to blame for decreased numbers.


Whilst I agree with most of what you say, I do believe that there is some degree of a carry on effect. If less people are running things, there is less for people to do, it makes the ocean feel emptier, which disheartens people. At any point along this process people could be leaving, and some part of it is due to PvP hunting (more indiscriminate sinking than PvP hunting). There is also a lot of issue with highly charged emotions as solitude pointed out, just because being PvPed once, twice, or constantly doesn't make someone leave, it does push them to behave less positively, and hurts the game in that way.

I am not going to name names, but I get along great with a bunch of people in a particular flag, but they assisted a flaggie in constantly harassing my flag in PvP. As a result of that, my flag actively distrusts and will not support them in their endeavours, despite most of the people constantly hunting us being good people. Its because they were invited on a PvP by one individual hunting us, which to them, they may not have even noticed, but it has hurt enough of my flaggies that the general attitude has turned to distrust, which is a shame, because most of them are great people.

I am in agreement with solitude as well, I will stand by offering an alternative PvP, that gets around all of these problems, and will hopefully encourage more players to partake in PvP.
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Tomanomanous - Princess of Fresh and Bold on Obsidian
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[Mar 22, 2018 9:24:52 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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If less people are running things, there is less for people to do


I am torn one of the things I thought was an improvement was less motivation to actually take out a pillage, less new people driving. Ships need stationers with out them they sit and load for way to long.

A side from meming or stock moves, I lost my motivation to run things was it right or wrong not really it was a realization that I didn't enjoy seeing a ship that I worked hours/days to earn sink. Its easy to move stock at the right time of the day, the pvp hunters are not out, you can /who them and know your safe.

So the mechanic of pvp pushed me into a role as a sailor or a patcher, most navers were happy to have. I fount it just fine if I wanted to go bnav I did so with the navy or KH (not really bnav but kinda).

One of the things I noticed were the amount of Baggie pillages run a few months ago, the required less gunners and offered a good time, compared to the same 3 sloops (for the same amount of pirates). Pvp now is either fixed or sloops so it isn't that hard to avoid if one wants to just take out larger ship (sadly they are harder to fill and if you go undermanned well glub).
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Re: The Debate is not about Jake! Who changed this anyway I don't see it oO Reply to this Post
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My main problem with PVP is that it is currently possible to fight 3v1, or 5v2, with the 5 all GM+ in their station and one or both of the two being around proficient/distinguished. That is on the same ship size, it is a lot worse if one of the ships is even slightly bigger. I believe this is a serious game design flaw, but few seem to agree. I have had it argued that a hire anyone pillage is not equivalent to a PVP ship, but if you look at the standings they are often similar, the pillage ship sometimes wins and has a decent chance of disengage. You don't see a well staffed memming ship ever. They don't stand a chance against a ship that has a GM pirate on most or all stations and don't have to start their stations fresh. This has been brought up in game design to no avail, so for now people are in my view exploiting it when the numbers on board so obviously don't add up. They don't care about honour, they just want to win.

I also think attacking sea monster hunts on their return to port and memmers in general is a low blow, as people will likely be starting their stations from scratch and in the case of the SMH people, especially kraken hunters, there will likely be some bilge water. Just like the various people who use spies to attack ships that have damage, this is exploiting a weakness to try to get an easy sink. There are degrees of this of course with spies rightly considered a tactic that you are not allowed to use, but personally I don't like this stuff anyway. I guess you could argue the KH people should have spent less time idle on the league point to keep bilge low, but there is also the problem of the PVP dnav not starting from scratch giving them a huge advantage. I guess there is still a decent chance of disengage with such a ship as at least it is well staffed.

I get that some people are trying to play 'the bad guys', but that doesn't mean you can or should do anything. The not caring attitude only attracts other people who don't care and I think hurts the ocean in general. Recently you have seen allies and friends condemn certain actions that were taken by flags and pirates that I won't bring up specifically here. We all make mistakes, but some don't care to admit that they did or even consider that they might have. I think in terms of PVP this means a compromise by the hunters so that they don't lose their prey; especially when those they hunt (or at least the jobbers on their ships) might be jobbing for them another time.

In response to "but I have seen you hiding on Baudstoo (hiding on a pirate with that name? really?!) on PVP ships"... Those attacked pillages, and nowadays I personally only attack those who have been attacking my flag in one way or another. We have had truces before, but if you attacked us a lot or keep attacking us then don't expect us to let up either. I should add that some of those who wanted truces from the flag attacking them should have sought them out earlier, though I can appreciate asking is tough. I can see that some got similarly frequent attacks with little or no provocation, that is when you can parley with those attacking or the ocean in general.

TLDR I waffle I know: Might rings are messed up and you can have 3v1 battles and 5v2 with the bigger number also having vastly superior standings, or worse if one ship is bigger. Of course different pirates want to do conflicting things which means a compromise must be met which some people are unwilling to do.
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Bauds of Obsidian, formerly Cerulean and before that Midnight.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Bauds at Mar 24, 2018 9:53:05 AM]
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Filthyjake

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My main problem with PVP is that it is currently possible to fight 3v1, or 5v2, with the 5 all GM+ in their station and one or both of the two being around proficient/distinguished. That is on the same ship size, it is a lot worse if one of the ships is even slightly bigger.


I agree with this, statement, and would love to play/experiment with it if we can get enough people with different standing toss some screen shots of the rings with whose is on the ships, email them in maybe they can fix it.

Dont even need to fight just create a log of who is on what ships just deport and see the ring differences. I find it odd when Im alone I see a might ring of green with 3 players on the same ship, all the stats play in so if you have good sails, good patch, but are bnaving... it hurts you.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
Filthyjake6145 (discord)

!!!Bad Social Player!!! Can't keep track of who is who....
[Mar 24, 2018 10:05:29 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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