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Sylvos3



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So, I know that most of the puzzles require a certain amount of time played to increase your experience. There are a few exceptions, but the vast majority works like this. I was always under the impression that this is also true for the alchemistry puzzle, but I'm curious if I missed something.

One of my pirates reached Weighty some years ago before I stopped playing. Recently, I came back to the game and played some alchemistry again, aiming for the Expert trophy, but it doesn't seem to matter how much I play the game. At this point, I spent more than 30 hours on the puzzle (during the past 2 weeks; including idle, because I got frustrated after a while) and nothing changed so far. Since I've been playing the game for more than 7 years now, I know that I should've been Expert since quite a while..

Can someone tell me if they changed the way how experience works nowadays? Did they add some fancy idle timer that requires you to fill a bottle every x minutes instead of taking your time? Or is the puzzle just broken, since I reached expert experience on a different puzzle without any issues (and it didn't take nearly as long)?
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Filthyjake

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The casuals left and the curve is much sharper to score well, what ocean?
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Captntipper



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I was always under the impression (thought never experimented to confirm it), that crafting puzzles counted the number of sessions rather than the time spent. Now that I think about it, I have no idea how abandoned sessions would work, considering they CAN impact standing.
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Sylvos3



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The casuals left and the curve is much sharper to score well, what ocean?


oh, I'm not talking about the standing, but the experience. I would be surprised if it was based on the number of sessions... but I guess that's the reason why I'm asking the question.
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superstarsam

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I would be surprised if it was based on the number of sessions


It is. Not sure if booched sessions count though. They don't seem to count if you just rightclick spam in distilling. Happy crafting!
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Axell9

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Booched sessions count towards experience as well, even if no bottles are ever filled (as opposed to having 1-2 bottles filled)
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Kyura94

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I would be surprised if it was based on the number of sessions


It is. Not sure if booched sessions count though. They don't seem to count if you just rightclick spam in distilling. Happy crafting!
From what I understand, Distilling is time based. So spamming right click doesn't do much.

That said however, if you abandon after the session, your experience won't be "allowed" to climb so you can theoretically stay Novice and climb rank by abandoning. Not sure about other crafting puzzles.
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superstarsam

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I would be surprised if it was based on the number of sessions


It is. Not sure if booched sessions count though. They don't seem to count if you just rightclick spam in distilling. Happy crafting!
From what I understand, Distilling is time based. So spamming right click doesn't do much.

That said however, if you abandon after the session, your experience won't be "allowed" to climb so you can theoretically stay Novice and climb rank by abandoning. Not sure about other crafting puzzles.


Interesting. I guess - if it's true - I never noticed this because most of my distilling sessions (more so than other crafting puzzles) have a smaller range of timespans from beginning to completion of the puzzle. OP might have to take me with a pinch of salt on alchemistry too, then - although the fact that (unlike distilling) you really can just sit on an alchem board and do nothing for hours might suggest that the metric for gaining experience is session- rather than time-based in that puzzle.
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[Mar 6, 2018 3:32:49 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sylvos3



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you really can just sit on an alchem board and do nothing for hours might suggest that the metric for gaining experience is session- rather than time-based in that puzzle.


while this makes sense to some extent, the same applies to a few other puzzles which are indeed time-based. From my experience, the only puzzles which are not time-based were parlor games and bnav, but I could be wrong..

Not sure if I'm motivated enough to do some testing when alchemistry is free, but it definitely would be nice to know. Wasting 30 hours in puzzle sessions that don't even count is just frustrating.
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jlh0605

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It's also worth noting that each experience level is much harder to get than the last. It's been speculated (and never disproven) that each level of experience requires double the previous level. So to get Expert, it will take just as much time (or as many sessions) as it did to get from Novice to Weighty.


Most of my puzzle experience stats are only 0 or 1 levels higher than they were five years ago.....
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Sylvos3



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This is true.

But 30 hours should be enough to reach Novice -> Expert, while I did not manage to jump from Weigthy -> Expert in this time.

As mentioned before.. I don't know if this is based on sessions (which would be weird, because you can just booch the puzzle within 1 minute, instead of playing for 30+ minutes), has an idle timer (which is silly for a puzzle like alchemistry) or if it's just broken - one way or another.

I don't expect an answer from someone who actually has insight on the mechanics of the game, but it would be nice to know if anyone did some testing, or even hit Expert recently..
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Axell9

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I tested with a few alts, just novice to neophyte though.

With booched DR:
Alt 1: 8 mins and 5 sessions to neophyte
Alt 2: 8 mins and 3 sessions to neophyte
Alt 3: 7 mins and 5 sessions to neophyte
Alt 4: 7 mins and 1 session to neophyte

Without booched DR:
Alt 5: 7 mins and 2 sessions to neophyte
Alt 6: 6 mins and 1 session to neophyte

(DRs just for reference, they shouldn't matter anyway)

Looks like it's time based, number of sessions don't seem to matter.
I've been stuck at Solid for a while as well, maybe it just requires a lot more time as alchemistry isn't a timed puzzle.
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Silverdream

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The time is important in the beginning of the experience. Later in the experience the time is not really important. You need round 128 games to get Weighty and round 256 games to get Expert. I tested it long ago up to Sublime (this was the highest experience level many years ago). Yeah, i was so crazy and counted all the games.

One perfect high ultimate 18 stars alchemistry game can (not must) take 30 mins.

(256-128) * 30 mins = 64 Hours.

So its real hard to get the expert level, if you start from the weighty level.
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Sylvos3



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Not saying you are wrong, but it sounds odd that alchemistry is the only puzzle that starts time-based and turns into session-based later.. 64 hours from Weighty -> Expert would be crazy.. other puzzles reach Paragon experience after that time (starting from Novice!).

~30 minutes for an 18 stars game sounds about right, but at this point it feels like they added some idle timer to the puzzle and you actually have to fill a bottle every x minutes in order to get experience. This applies to a few other puzzles where it makes sense, but in my opinion you should be able to take your time on a crafting puzzle like alchemistry and get full experience even if you take 1-2 hours.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Sylvos3 at Mar 7, 2018 7:55:52 AM]
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Silverdream

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Not saying you are wrong, but it sounds odd that alchemistry is the only puzzle that starts time-based and turns into session-based later.. 64 hours from Weighty -> Expert would be crazy.. other puzzles reach Paragon experience after that time (starting from Novice!).


No need to play perfect, you can play dirty with fine DR. Then you need maybe 5 mins for a game, dont know exactly, i am not a well dirty player lol. Its easier for me to get nice DR.

Then you need round 64/(30/5)= 64/6 = 10.67 hours to get the expert level, starting from the weighty level. Same for distilling (max 5 mins for a game) without leaving the puzzle ....
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Silverdream at Mar 7, 2018 11:19:47 AM]
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Sylvos3



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So, I did some testing, but I'm not entirely sure what the conclusion is.. I would assume that there is some idle timer involved though.

Alt 1: Start the puzzle, idle for 90 minutes, occasionally move the mouse / turn a piece, clear the board.

Time: 90 minutes
Sessions: 1
Result: Novice -> Neophyte
+1 session (2 minutes) -> Apprentice

---

Alt 2: Start puzzle, fill a few bottles every 10 minutes

Time: 40 minutes
Sessions: 1
Result: Novice -> Neophyte
(I dismissed a few games and reached Apprentice after I booched one; not sure though if I completed another session before)

---

Alt 3: Start puzzle, fill 1 bottle every ~2 minutes

Time: 20 minutes
Sessions: 1
Result: Novice -> Neophyte
+1 session (2 minutes) -> Apprentice

---

Alt 4: Start puzzle, clear board as fast as possible

Time: < 5 minutes
Sessions: 2
Result: Novice
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zapadapa

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Here are some statistics I compiled back in 2014 on a new pirate on Cerulean. Make of them what you will:

Using an average of 20 mins per game:

Apprentice 5th game = 1 hr 40 mins
Narrow 6th game = 2 hrs
Broad 10th game = 3 hrs 20 mins
Solid 17th game = 5 hrs 40 mins
Weighty 67th game = 22 hrs 20 mins
Expert 128th game = 1 day 18 hrs 40 mins

***Note*** The times are total from the start, not between each level.

These were all Increds apart from first game Fine, then 8 Excellents at the start, and 2 excellents near the end. So it was all proper games, no booching.
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Sylvos3



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Interesting... thank you for those times.

It took you 1h 40m (5 sessions) to reach Apprentice, while my testing gave me the same experience level after 22m (2 sessions).

This kind of confirms my assumption that there is some idle timer involved and you actually have to fill a bottle (or at least hit the fill button) every x minutes in order to get experience. If you take too long or idle, you won't get any experience until you're "active" again - whatever that means..

If this is true, I disagree with the concept. Yes it works and yes, you can reach high experience by just playing the games.. but I already disliked the concept of an idle timer in blacksmithing where you want to plan ahead and don't rush through the board, just to stay active.

That's unfortunate, because it artificially increases the time you have to play those puzzles and the lack of numbers makes it kind of unappealing for me..
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Forumacc2



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Hi,

It's really interesting to see this thread pop up, because since I've started doing Alchemistry, I always felt that getting the experience up took longer than in the other puzzles, and after a year doing it, I still feel that's the case, but I always dismissed it as "just my perception".

I think you can't go up more than one experience level in a single puzzle session at any puzzle though, so even if you spend 10 hours in the puzzle at Novice, you'd only get Neophyte regardless, but in the next session, you'll get Apprentice instantaneously even if it lasts only 1 min.

So I'd say to test if the timer is idle based or if you have to fill a bottle each X minutes, you'd have to be at least Broad and see if a very long session (~1 hour 20 min) gives you Solid or not, doing the two different methods. The thing is, your Broad might be higher if you started your previous session when you were high Narrow (thus leveling up, and then having the rest of the session time counting towards Solid :/), so it's not something very simple to test, unless you get your Broad by doing quick 3 mins sessions at Narrow.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Forumacc2 at Mar 15, 2018 11:58:03 AM]
[Mar 15, 2018 11:56:26 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sylvos3



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I agree that my "test" was flawed as I only took the first experience level and nothing beyond that. But on the other hand, I already spent more than 30 hours in the puzzle since I hit Weighty experience and did not reach Expert experience yet, even though that should be done after < 15 hours.

This leads to the conclusion that the puzzle is either broken or that there has to be an idle timer, since I don't expect it to be session based. Otherwise my results would've been different.

However, I gave up on the game again because of that. I want to be able to play the game in-between and not try to fill a bottle every x minutes. Maybe this is still a remainder of the time when the puzzle was different and had a maximum amount of moves, but the way it is right now.. no fun at all. It just feels like a waste of time.
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Goodwill100

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"Duty" Puzzle experience is time based. Imagine you need:
  • 100 minutes for A
  • 500 minutes for B
  • 1000 minutes for C

Then puzzling for >100 minutes will give you experience A. However, you'd still need to puzzle >500 minutes in the next session(s) to achieve experience B as time does not transition over.
Booching does not matter and you can effectively sit on the same board for an infinite amount ,as long as you don't disconnect for inactivity (e.g zZz timer is ~1 hour on Obsidian, so just wiggle your mouse inbetween).

If you want to reproduce the Alchemistry experience, then end your session after these time frames:

Novice - Neophyte: 300 seconds

Neophyte - Apprentice: 700 seconds

Apprentice - Narrow: 1.000 seconds

Narrow - Broad: 3.000 seconds

Broad - Solid: 5.000 seconds

Solid - Weighty: 40.000 seconds

Weighty - Expert: 50.000 seconds

Expert - Paragon: 100.000 seconds
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Goodwill100 at Apr 6, 2018 6:23:55 AM]
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Prammy16

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...since I don't expect it to be session based


I was under the impression that all puzzle that were not based in any way on speed were also the ones where experience was session based. Weaving and blacksmithing would be other examples besides apothecary, where you can sit and think for hours before you move, with zero penalty.

Perhaps, then, your strategy of spending loooong periods of time on very few sessions is exactly the opposite of what you actually want to do: rush through them to get as many as possible.

I'd suggest at least testing this strategy to see if it works better before giving up on it.
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Forumacc2



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...since I don't expect it to be session based


I was under the impression that all puzzle that were not based in any way on speed were also the ones where experience was session based. Weaving and blacksmithing would be other examples besides apothecary, where you can sit and think for hours before you move, with zero penalty.

Perhaps, then, your strategy of spending loooong periods of time on very few sessions is exactly the opposite of what you actually want to do: rush through them to get as many as possible.

I'd suggest at least testing this strategy to see if it works better before giving up on it.


Did you even read the thread? Many people already tested it, it's time based.

So, if you didn't reach Expert after puzzling 30 hours on Weighty, there's definitely some timer, and the perception I always had while playing Alchemistry (that it takes super long to experience up) isn't wrong either.

Now, the questions we should ask ourselves should be:

Is the timer an "idle timer" or more like a rule of "you have to fill a bottle every X minutes"? I'd say it's the latter, because with a brand new pirate, getting up to Broad seems to take as long as it takes in the other time-based puzzles, but when the boards get harder (you take much more time with each fill), it starts to feel like experiencing up takes longer than in the rest of the puzzles (yes, I know every level requires more time, it's not the point, I'm comparing it to different puzzles while having the same experience level).

My Alch sessions usually take at least 30 minutes, some specific hard fills taking 20-25 minutes sometimes. So if there is a rule of filling bottles fast, I'm pretty much screwed. Besides, I don't idle that often when I play Alchemistry, I might usually chat in game while I play but it's pause, chat, resume, play a bit, pause, chat, resume, etc. I don't think small pauses of less than 1 min would time me out (but they would certainly add up to the time limit to fill bottles fast, screwing me over)

Also, you said after idling for 90 minutes, you got Neophyte (almost Apprentice), so I'm a bit confused with that. Did you idle and then cleared all the bottles fast? Or did you clear some, then idle, then clear the rest?

If you got timed out, does the experience start counting again after you fill bottles? Or you're already screwed for the rest of the session?

What's that secret time limit for idles/bottle fills!?
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Prammy16

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Did you even read the thread? Many people already tested it, it's time based.


 
The time is important in the beginning of the experience. Later in the experience the time is not really important. You need round 128 games to get Weighty and round 256 games to get Expert. I tested it long ago up to Sublime (this was the highest experience level many years ago). Yeah, i was so crazy and counted all the games.


I'm going to believe the guy who counted the number of games all the way up to sublime, rather than the guy assuming I didn't read the thread because I don't think exactly what they do. It's also fits my experience (heh) better, having done quite a bit of alchemy myself across many accounts.
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Goodwill100

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It is time based.

Example: If you hit Broad, you will need to puzzle for 5.000 seconds (~1h 23m) over your next session(s) to hit Solid.
It can be done in a single sitting, even if you laze all the way through and booch it - just make sure to move the mouse once per hour to not log off automatically.

Before anyone asks, yes, a single session is sufficient and you can even stay up to 24+hours on a single board if you are willing to grind xp while watching a movie.

 
@Porglit

I'm going to believe the guy who counted the number of games all the way up to sublime, rather than the guy assuming I didn't read the thread because I don't think exactly what they do. It's also fits my experience (heh) better, having done quite a bit of alchemy myself across many accounts.


Forumacc2 is right. It is time based and your perception is not right. Feel free to reproduce session with the times I've listed.It is also the same with other duty puzzles (e.g Sailing,Bilge,Carp,Gunning e.t.c). So please jump into a puzzle, track the time and see the results. It does not matter how many games you play :-)
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[Apr 7, 2018 11:41:52 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Forumacc2



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I'm going to believe the guy who counted the number of games all the way up to sublime, rather than the guy assuming I didn't read the thread because I don't think exactly what they do. It's also fits my experience (heh) better, having done quite a bit of alchemy myself across many accounts.


You literally said
 
I'd suggest at least testing this strategy to see if it works better before giving up on it.


When it's already been tested and the results had been posted in this thread. Don't try to twist the argument.

Besides, the guy you're quoting said "You need round 128 games to get Weighty and round 256 games to get Expert", and for Zapa, who tested it and actually gave exact numbers, it took 67 games to get Weighty and 128 for Expert. Lol, sure it is session based with these drastic differences.

And you actually think a puzzle can be time based at the start and then suddenly turn session based? I mean, 2 people on this thread tested it and the number of sessions were completely irrelevant to get Neophyte/Apprentice.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Forumacc2 at Apr 7, 2018 2:02:18 PM]
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LJAmethyst

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Jonthecarper wrote: 
It is time based.

Example: If you hit Broad, you will need to puzzle for 5.000 seconds (~1h 23m) over your next session(s) to hit Solid.
It can be done in a single sitting, even if you laze all the way through and booch it - just make sure to move the mouse once per hour to not log off automatically.

Before anyone asks, yes, a single session is sufficient and you can even stay up to 24+hours on a single board if you are willing to grind xp while watching a movie.


Firstly, you don't know what a "session" is, as it is defined by Three Rings. A puzzle session typically lasts a few minutes, but it is a finite thing that can be ended in many different ways. If you sit there, say, sailing for 18 hours and 15 minutes, that is many "sessions" because they have been interrupted by finishing a charted course, etc.

Secondly, NO, a single session is not required to reach the next experience level in a duty puzzle. Puzzling time is cumulative and it is stored invisibly in-between your sessions and logins. If you are 2 minutes away from Sublime then you will find out at the end of your next puzzling session of 2+ minutes. You will not need to puzzle for thousands of minutes in one sitting just to reach Sublime.

I am shocked that anyone could believe it works this way in a game designed, from the ground-up, for Casual Gameplay.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by LJAmethyst at Apr 7, 2018 7:22:51 PM]
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Kyura94

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Secondly, NO, a single session is not required to reach the next experience level in a duty puzzle. Puzzling time is cumulative and it is stored invisibly in-between your sessions and logins. If you are 2 minutes away from Sublime then you will find out at the end of your next puzzling session of 2+ minutes. You will not need to puzzle for thousands of minutes in one sitting just to reach Sublime.

Jonthecarper didn't say a single session is required. He simply said a single session is potentially enough to jump to the next experience level, if you're willing to grind it that way.

 
I am shocked that anyone could believe it works this way in a game designed, from the ground-up, for Casual Gameplay.

I am shocked that anyone can be shocked without first reading and internalising messages properly.

Btw you can sail for your 18hrs in the safezone of whichever map and that's 1 session. So it is possible.
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Ryuken on Obsidian (active) and Emerald (not really)
I made an in-depth Distilling guide here, and a guns one somewhere.
I gave Obsidian their Owls c:
[Apr 8, 2018 1:05:53 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Captntipper



Joined: Oct 30, 2009
Posts: 59
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Re: Alchemistry experience? Reply to this Post
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What Ryuken said, plus we are talking about alchemistry, so you can most definitely spend 24 hours in a single session just by not completing the board and not going offline.
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Captnnemo - Obsidian
[Apr 8, 2018 8:35:46 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sylvos3



Joined: Jun 4, 2012
Posts: 14
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Re: Alchemistry experience? Reply to this Post
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Also, you said after idling for 90 minutes, you got Neophyte (almost Apprentice), so I'm a bit confused with that. Did you idle and then cleared all the bottles fast? Or did you clear some, then idle, then clear the rest?


I waited for ~90 minutes and started to fill bottles then. But during my 30 hours to reach Expert, I also tried to make the first fill early (in case that's required to start the session) and waited for some time between more fills. However, this does not seem to work, because I've done that strategy for more than 14 hours which should've been enough to hit Expert. So either my timer was slightly off or it just doesn't work like that.

 
If you got timed out, does the experience start counting again after you fill bottles? Or you're already screwed for the rest of the session?


From what I can tell, in other puzzles there is some kind of idle timer if you don't do anything for a few minutes (maybe 1-2 minutes, maybe even less.. hard to tell). But you can continue to play the puzzle and gain experience again.

 
What's that secret time limit for idles/bottle fills!?


Now.. that's the question..


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The thing is.. I really wish the game was more consistent when it comes to how puzzles work. Sure, you can just play the game and eventually after a few years you will get some trophies.. but it would be nice to know if you're wasting your time or not.

As I said.. puzzles like alchemistry, blacksmithing, foraging and even weaving are games where you want to take your time and not just rush through.

For foraging you can take all the time you want.. you will get experience even if you just idle for 20 hours. Blacksmithing and weaving have an idle timer. I already tested those and I don't think it changed - for blacksmithing you have to hit a piece to reset the timer.. for weaving you have to send pieces down the board, but I don't think it's required to clear anything for the timer to reset.

Alchemistry however.. I don't know. Turning pieces to build a path doesn't seem to be enough for the timer to reset. So I assume the idle timer in fact requires you to hit the fill button, which is awkward. Maybe that's exactly how it's intended to work, but I don't see me completing 400 sessions of alchemistry to hit sublime, because I have to finish it in a certain time frame...
[Apr 10, 2018 6:50:02 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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