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Devonin

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Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT) Reply to this Post
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So this has come up a couple times in other threads and the general sense of this sort of underpins just about everything being talked about across all the servers. To be blunt, every ocean that isn't Obsidian is basically dead. So far for actual stat tracking I have a pretty small sample size, but I've never checked around all the non-ice servers and seen less than 65% of all online players on Obsidian. It's been as high as 75% and in more than one case, logged into Meridian specifically to see 1 person online.

How much of Obsidian's success is the fresh start, and how much is better marketing, and how much is world pvp is certainly debatable, but one thing I've heard many times from definitely the majority of players I've talked to about it is that they would prefer it to play on a server as populous and active as Obsidian but without mandatory pvp/mandatory sinking out side the starter arch. One of the common responses to floating the idea of opting out of the pvp is "Just leave and go to another server" but this is a non-starter. Oceans need a healthy population to keep everything moving. Having to schedule one day a week outside the game at a specific time to pillage because there's three whole captains running pillages is not how this game is meant to be played.

I honestly don't think that it would be impossible to find a way to implement pvp neutrality into Obsidian in a way that allows those people to play in the "classic" way that still keeps the economy in balance, doesn't split the players into two functional servers inside one, or open itself to exploiting by regular crews. It wouldn't be easy, and I'm no programmer and I understand that a lot of things that sound simple are actually very complicated to implement and vice versa, so take all of this with a grain of salt, but I really think it is worth considering the "compromising" of the vision of Obsidian as a riskier pvp server because, if we're really honest, especially if we look 6 months or a year down the road, this is pretty much the only server there is.

A conception of Neutrality for Obsidian Ocean

As I see it there are a number of particular risks with allowing any kind of opt-out system for PVP on Obsidian ocean, which would all need to be addressed to make it remotely workable as an implementation. Those risks as I see it are:

1/ Neutral crews don't lose ships, which reduces dubloon income and labor demands
2/ Opt-in neutrality would be abused by regular crews to safely transport expensive goods with no risk
3/ Neutrality complicates flag politics, island ownership and blockade mechanics
4/ Neutrality would create two separate non-interacting communities of players

There are other potential concerns, but from what most people have said, those seem to be the main ones. So what kind of system do I propose to make neutrality work?


Neutrality
Sell a Wrapped Badge of Neutrality in the Palace Shop - Make this badge expensive. This is a crew purchase which would be funded through contributions of crew members. This could definitely cost 75 or 100 dubloons. Unwrapping this badge causes your crew to be made Neutral for 30 days. Once unwrapped you are neutral for the full duration of 30 days. When the badge expires, you are prompted to choose a faction, and join it like normal unless or until you unwrap another neutral badge.

Neutral crews cannot join flags or form flags - This is the neatest solution to complications around blockades, island control, and governorship. Crews can't hold islands. Crews can't contend blockades. Don't allow a captain to use a Neutrality badge if they are currently the governor of an island. It has to be passed to somebody not in the crew being made neutral. Have to hand off governorship, and leave the flag before you can use it.

Vilya maintains permanent control of Port Venture, if they weren't planning to anyway - Neutral crews will need a base to operate from, and the central island of the starter arch is the obvious choice. This is more relevant for some economic stuff down the list.

Ships purchased by neutral crewmembers can be marked 'neutral' on pickup - Making the ship itself neutral before it can be used by the neutral crew allows them to implement a number of economic measures and structures in a less complicated way. If you go to deliver a sloop and mark to make it neutral, the game just destroys the sloop and gives you a neutral sloop with the same name instead. This allows a couple things that would need doing for economic reasons that can be coded onto the ship type itself for easier working:

Neutral ships decay like clothing, and will dust - This can scale based on the size of the ship like it does for clothes. This is to ensure that even neutral crews can't just avoid the loss of ships by avoiding PVP. Remember this is about enabling a playstyle that only wants PvE, not protecting people from losing ships/goods. This allows the economy to still need an influx of new ships for neutral crews, and makes abusing neutrality for economic gain of a non-neutral crew much harder/more expensive.

Neutral crewmembers cannot buy commodities into a ship's hold from commodity markets on islands controlled by either faction, except for rum and shot. - So much of the economy wants to be tied up in risk moving commodities from island to island, that neutral crews cannot take part in that. Without this provision, on the 29th day of the badge, ships would load up on every expensive good they needed to move and pile them safely to other markets to await going un-neutral. They can pillage, they can forage, they can win goods from NPCs, but if you want to be a trader merchant, you have to engage with pvp.

Neutral crewmembers selling goods on islands controlled by either faction pay a tax in the form of a rake that is just sunk - Once again, this is to stop neutral crews being exploited by pvp crews to provide safer shipping. You can't buy things outside the neutral islands, or sell them profitably outside the neutral islands. There will always be demand for goods on Port Venture, and markets there, which would be propped up by neutral crews basing themselves there.

Neutral crewmembers can buy regular consumable stuff from anybody - Clothes, swords, anything that gets delivered to you instead of your ship's hold is fine to be purchased from anywhere. Ships are only usable by the crew if marked neutral, so you can even get your own regular ships for possible leaving neutrality later with no issues.

Members of neutral crews can freely job for factional crews - Jobbing on a factional ship is fine, I mean, you can job now for a faction with whom you are at permanent war so there's not even thematic issues here.

Members of factions can freely job for neutral crews - Same thing, none of this needs to change code wise, individual players can job wherever for whomever.

I'm sure I'm missing a few provisions that ought to be included, and I'm sure these can be refined a lot, but it's 1:30am and I've been writing for nearly three hours, so I'm going to leave it here for what I will assume will end up being strenuous objections to how absurd it all is.

But essentially, this is something I feel would be best for the game as a whole. Committing to one single server that can accommodate PvP and PvE players so that it can be focused on for advertising, marketing and made to flourish, hopefully reviving the game some seems like the best financial course for Grey Haven, and if the issues with pulling some people out of the pvp system can be addressed, I think it can be done in a way that is overall positive for the player experience.

So what are your thoughts? Most importantly, do you, if you play on Obsidian, think that you would enjoy yourself more if you had the option to be pvp-neutral, even under some constraints? Do you think you'd pay out more dubloons or poe in the name of getting to be pvp-neutral? Equally importantly, if you currently play on Cerulean, Midnight or Emerald, do you think you would come to Obsidian if you could opt out of pvp?
[Oct 11, 2017 10:35:32 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sagacious

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Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT) Reply to this Post
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No.
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[Oct 11, 2017 11:07:13 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Keaze

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Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT) Reply to this Post
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No.

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[Oct 11, 2017 11:33:25 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

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Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT) Reply to this Post
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Of all the worthless crappy reactions I expected for this thread, taking the time to respond just to complete dismiss somebody's efforts like this is pretty sad.
[Oct 11, 2017 11:37:09 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Faulkston

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Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT) Reply to this Post
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Were you perhaps expecting an even split between "no" and "heck no"? :-D


On a serious note, you're proposing to modify one of the experiments the Developers planned to do with the Obsidian Ocean, namely increased PvP.

With the cost of neutrality being potentially quite high under the proposal, the reason for crews to be neutral on the Obsidian Ocean rather than sail on a classic ocean, would come down to access to a larger player base e.g. jobbing pirates who belong to the two warring factions. That assumes of course that player numbers do remain higher on the Obsidian Ocean, past some initial burst of popularity.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Faulkston at Oct 12, 2017 12:13:07 AM]
[Oct 12, 2017 12:11:00 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/search [Link]  Go to top 
ZeroZiat

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Yeah I don't really think making the only PvP-focused server in a game less PvP-focused is good compromise on anything, for either party. Halfway measures never go a long way.

On personal account, I will mention I once had the fleeting thought of crews/players not having to stick to a faction would be a good feeling for people who really didn't want to make that choice or didn't feel attracted by either side... But frankly this server's theme is to just do so and to go with it. I once read a chinese proverb told the reader that when you had to make a decision, it had to be made in less than 7(? i think) exhales... While this thread is not about indecision per se, I guess that's my recommendation to people who can't get a fix on either side.
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Playing since 2007 on Dub oceans. All pirates purged.

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[Edit 1 times, last edit by ZeroZiat at Oct 12, 2017 12:37:53 AM]
[Oct 12, 2017 12:32:45 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
HiimEric2001

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So, it seems like the Neutrality Badge would be a significant expense. If you're paying out anyway, do you think something similar can be accomplished with the social puzzle? If you get PvP'd you can try to bribe your attacker to disengage or to not sink you.

Would a mechanical implementation of that help? Like a trade screen one Captain can issue to the other? I'll give you _______ to disengage. If the other Captain accepts the battle ends immediately. No need to wait 10 turns?

In general, I like the more sinky aspect of this ocean, but I don't know that it's totally dialed in yet, and I'd be up for things that make it a bit less sinky. I am a big proponent of the social puzzle with these things though.
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[Oct 12, 2017 7:22:07 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ZeroZiat

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I'm down to having a talk over /tells on getting my ship ransomed in case I don't really want to see it sunk. It is not 100% airtight since the other side could also not keep it's word but that's where the social puzzle comes in.

You can denounce them for being not honorable to their own word. How the community handles it would be another topic though.

Adding a mechanic to have it ransomed would be cool but kinda hand-holdey... It really depends on what game they're trying to run, I guess. A bit less sinky would be okay if handled correctly.
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[Oct 12, 2017 7:42:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

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Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT) Reply to this Post
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Faulkston wrote: 
Were you perhaps expecting an even split between "no" and "heck no"? :-D


On a serious note, you're proposing to modify one of the experiments the Developers planned to do with the Obsidian Ocean, namely increased PvP.


If there was any indication whatsoever that any server besides this one was going to grow and get to even where this one is now, sure. But I very much believe looking at the numbers, that this IS the game. This isn't a wacky experiment. It is what determines whether Y!PP continues to exist as a playable game or not.

Yes I'm proposing they modify their conception of this experiment from "I wonder if a more pvp-centric ocean will be popular" to "I wonder if a fresh start ocean might be the only thing that keeps this game alive" so they can say "Yes...yes a fresh start ocean might be the only thing that keeps this game alive, lets try to make that fresh start ocean as appealing to as many people as possible so it can grow"

The most common think I hear from all the old subscription people is "The sinking definitely means I won't play this game like I used to. I won't invest as heavily, I won't go all in"

 
With the cost of neutrality being potentially quite high under the proposal, the reason for crews to be neutral on the Obsidian Ocean rather than sail on a classic ocean, would come down to access to a larger player base e.g. jobbing pirates who belong to the two warring factions. That assumes of course that player numbers do remain higher on the Obsidian Ocean, past some initial burst of popularity.


Yes. That is what it comes down to. People want to play with other people. They want to play where the other people are. Telling people who want to play with a large active group of people but not PVP "Go over there to the server that has never had more than 30 people on at once in years" is just being a jerk. It may seem reasonable and even well-intentioned, but whether people want to accept that this is the reality or not, "go play on another ocean" means "don't play"

From your link to the thread describing the intentions behind Obsidian, literally the first point of their stated purpose in making it is

'We want to introduce Puzzle Pirates to players who have perhaps never played the game before, and there will be much greater exposure to new players with a standalone release on Steam."

They want this new ocean to bring in new people who've never played before. Okay cool. They come in and see an active game with people around and stuff going on, and then they say "This game looks cool, is there a non-pvp option?" and then they have to go back to steam, download a whole new client, create a whole new pirate and get dropped on an empty dock with nothing going on.

Those people will just leave.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Devonin at Oct 12, 2017 7:54:38 AM]
[Oct 12, 2017 7:51:51 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
jdl1963



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Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT) Reply to this Post
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Were you perhaps expecting an even split between "no" and "heck no"? :-D


On a serious note, you're proposing to modify one of the experiments the Developers planned to do with the Obsidian Ocean, namely increased PvP.


After twenty years of watching MMO's: enforced non-consensual PvP is not the path to health, wealth, and happiness. Squared and cubed when a loss in PvP costs the loser considerably in time/money/effort. With the sole exception of Eve (which offers much more than YPP!) pretty much any game that's tried it ends up a dying backwater.

People don't like to lose stuff. It's as simple as that.
[Oct 12, 2017 9:14:16 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
bahaakbu

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Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT) Reply to this Post
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"go play on another ocean" means "don't play"


This. +1
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[Oct 12, 2017 9:14:35 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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What if another archipelago was added to the south of Greywaters Archipelago, thus expanding the neutral environment? Or even expanding the Greywaters Archipelago itself, to give those who are concerned about sinking the ability to chart longer routes?

Or what if there was a mechanism where you could "rent" a ship from the governor but it meant payouts were reduced by 25-35% (though you were still subject to sinking PvP). In such a scenario, the rental fleet would be built by the governor of the island (similar to how ferrying used to work, back in the day). You could only stock the ship with rum/shot. If non-rum/shot commods were won during a pillage, at the time of divvy those commods would get moved to the palace (or fleet rental shoppe?). If ships were sunk due to sinking PvP, the governor could restore them for small amount of eights (no doubloon cost). If you divvy anywhere other than the owning governor's island, the ship is automatically whisked to the governor's island.

Just a random thought, definitely not something I put any effort into, so feel free to shoot it down, make changes, or add ideas/improvements.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by majestrate at Oct 12, 2017 12:19:15 PM]
[Oct 12, 2017 12:18:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    first_majestrate    majestrait [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

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My primary concern is not, and never was "I don't want my ships to sink" It is "I don't want to PvP. I don't want to engage in ship battles against other humans" and I suspect for a lot of people who don't like the PvP element to Obsidian, that is also their concern.

Are there people who'd opt in because their stuff feels safer? Sure. But it's more that every element of this game is fun and great PvE and the addition of mandatory PvP with or without sinking, was always a detraction, and the stronger emphasis on it here makes it more of one. The fact that a bunch of the game will also include mandatory sinking does make it worse sure, but I'd happily commit to a method of my ships needing replacing periodically to never have to fight against other humans.
[Oct 12, 2017 12:24:20 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
bahaakbu

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What if another archipelago was added to the south of Greywaters Archipelago, thus expanding the neutral environment? Or even expanding the Greywaters Archipelago itself, to give those who are concerned about sinking the ability to chart longer routes?

Yes please. But this may run the problem of the previous oceans, too big of a playing ground, too little people.

 
Or what if there was a mechanism where you could "rent" a ship from the governor but it meant payouts were reduced by 25-35% (though you were still subject to sinking PvP). In such a scenario, the rental fleet would be built by the governor of the island (similar to how ferrying used to work, back in the day). You could only stock the ship with rum/shot. If non-rum/shot commods were won during a pillage, at the time of divvy those commods would get moved to the palace (or fleet rental shoppe?). If ships were sunk due to sinking PvP, the governor could restore them for small amount of eights (no doubloon cost). If you divvy anywhere other than the owning governor's island, the ship is automatically whisked to the governor's island.

Just a random thought, definitely not something I put any effort into, so feel free to shoot it down, make changes, or add ideas/improvements.

Like navy, but better risk/rewards? Sign me up. I actually like playing with the navy, I would like it better if I didn't get pretty much no recompansation.

Also, the reason I don't really want to leave the greywaters is, I really don't want to rebuild me painted/renamed ship anyway. And I would be fine with PvP as well, if I didn't keep finding myself in 1v4 battles. (I know you mentioned this on that other thread.) So, I would like this ship for hire ordeal.

Although the rum/shot thing might need to be arranged a bit better. I wouldn't want to dump all that extra rum just because I couldn't finish it. Maybe, hmm, remove the remaining rum/cannon balls and set it to deliver to my pirate for the port that I left in?
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Cheesemighty on Obsidian.
I'm trying to compare the opinions of people on obsidian ocean, and see if the difference is statistically significant. It's anonymous and takes less than 5 minutes: https://goo.gl/forms/6icpkudNjlb1PmcF3
[Oct 12, 2017 12:34:31 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT) Reply to this Post
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People don't like to lose stuff. It's as simple as that.


Some, others realize its part of the battle. I have lost many ships in kades and it stings a little bit but I accepted it as part of the game.

I am not ok with losing a load of Herbs or Minerals. Its clearly a very piratey practice to pvp and it adds a lot to the game. Sadly as I have said as have others its very lopsided the larger loss/risk allways seems to fall on the prey ship. The easiest fix it to make the attacker put more skin in the game. I have suggested putting some poe in the booty as a way for this, still think its a good idea.

Make a pvp ocean safe is going to be manipulated kade stock will be moved in safe flags/crews just like they are on other oceans.
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[Oct 12, 2017 12:43:31 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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My primary concern is not, and never was "I don't want my ships to sink" It is "I don't want to PvP. I don't want to engage in ship battles against other humans" and I suspect for a lot of people who don't like the PvP element to Obsidian, that is also their concern.

Are there people who'd opt in because their stuff feels safer? Sure. But it's more that every element of this game is fun and great PvE and the addition of mandatory PvP with or without sinking, was always a detraction, and the stronger emphasis on it here makes it more of one. The fact that a bunch of the game will also include mandatory sinking does make it worse sure, but I'd happily commit to a method of my ships needing replacing periodically to never have to fight against other humans.

The PvP element of PP:DS is no different than that of YPP. The only thing that is different is that there is now a permanent war, so sinking PvP is possible without dealing with flags declaring war on one another. But that's politics, not PvP.

I don't get how you, or anyone, thinks that if Cerulean or Emerald were as active as Obsidian is, that you'd be so much happier there because you still can't "opt out" of PvP.
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[Oct 12, 2017 2:04:38 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    first_majestrate    majestrait [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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I don't get how you, or anyone, thinks that if Cerulean or Emerald were as active as Obsidian is, that you'd be so much happier there because you still can't "opt out" of PvP.


The take is less 25% vs 100% its not sinky.
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[Oct 12, 2017 2:35:07 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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Filthyjake wrote: 
majestrate wrote: 


I don't get how you, or anyone, thinks that if Cerulean or Emerald were as active as Obsidian is, that you'd be so much happier there because you still can't "opt out" of PvP.


The take is less 25% vs 100% its not sinky.

Devonin wrote: 
My primary concern is not, and never was "I don't want my ships to sink" It is "I don't want to PvP. I don't want to engage in ship battles against other humans" and I suspect for a lot of people who don't like the PvP element to Obsidian, that is also their concern.

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Nek0jin

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Speaking for myself, the significant risk of loss (even for a Sloop or Cutter) is many hours' worth of work to buy/replace. It's even worse when you're new, and people won't let you go on more lucrative Pillages.

I typically end up as a Jobber on random Pillages where I get ~3k per hour. I do occasionally get better runs, but that seems to be the common level. More dangerous runs (Krakens, etc.) are generally not welcoming for people who don't have experience, which becomes a catch-22 - I can't get the experience because people won't take me.

This is, in fact, the reason I left my last crew. One of the two Senior Officers regularly scheduled Sea Monster runs, but refused to allow me to go along, because my puzzle ranking isn't high enough.

So I'm looking at ~25 hours of puzzling to get a Sloop, or ~40 for a cutter. Not a small expense. I own an LE Sloop; replacing it if it sinks is another ~25 hours. Is it any wonder that I'm not eager to go out into PvP waters?
[Oct 12, 2017 3:32:22 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

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majestrate wrote: 
I don't get how you, or anyone, thinks that if Cerulean or Emerald were as active as Obsidian is, that you'd be so much happier there because you still can't "opt out" of PvP.


 
and the addition of mandatory PvP with or without sinking, was always a detraction, and the stronger emphasis on it here makes it more of one


Was always an issue, is more of one here for several reasons.
[Oct 12, 2017 4:16:48 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

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So I'm looking at ~25 hours of puzzling to get a Sloop, or ~40 for a cutter. Not a small expense. I own an LE Sloop; replacing it if it sinks is another ~25 hours. Is it any wonder that I'm not eager to go out into PvP waters?


Meanwhile on Cerulean, with no mandatory sinking on 2/3rds of the world, a sloop is like 10k poe.

Having to spend dubs on clothes which dust is one thing, because they decay at a fixed rate that is the same for everybody.

Having to stick to one arch or risk somebody who just decides to not like you (say, to teach you a lesson about making forum threads asking for a way to opt out of pvp :P ) could actively hunt for you and sink you every time you try to go out and cost you multiple real dollars every time.
[Oct 12, 2017 4:19:08 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ZeroZiat

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Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews Reply to this Post
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Devonin wrote: 
risk somebody who just decides to not like you (say, to teach you a lesson about making forum threads asking for a way to opt out of pvp :P ) could actively hunt for you and sink you every time you try to go out and cost you multiple real dollars every time.
I'm pretty sure if it gets that bad you can talk it through or tell an OM you're being outright griefed off the game.
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Playing since 2007 on Dub oceans. All pirates purged.

Zerzekziat on Obsidian
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by ZeroZiat at Oct 12, 2017 4:59:16 PM]
[Oct 12, 2017 4:58:40 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

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I'd be astonished if that was considered against the rules. You sail a ship into sinking waters, and somebody from the opposing faction is waiting for you? Isn't that the point of risky PvP ocean?
[Oct 12, 2017 5:22:24 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ZeroZiat

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Devonin wrote: 
I'd be astonished if that was considered against the rules. You sail a ship into sinking waters, and somebody from the opposing faction is waiting for you? Isn't that the point of risky PvP ocean?
I'm pretty sure fairplay PvP and clear-cut harassment are different.
http://www.puzzlepirates.com/Terms.xhtml wrote: 
Harassment
Harassment can be defined as repeated actions that target an individual or group for the purpose of bringing about feelings of discomfort or distress. Harassment is not allowed and may result in an account being banned from the game.
Mind you, this is all regarding with the previous condition you mentioned (ex. somebody disagreeing with your opt-out PvP advocacy and trying to griff you off the game because you're getting annoying for them).

Sailing into the Dark Seas, you should expect opposition of course but if someone's waiting 1 LP away from your home archipelago with the sole purpose of ganking you everytime you show up, that's probably harrasment.
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Playing since 2007 on Dub oceans. All pirates purged.

Zerzekziat on Obsidian
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[Edit 4 times, last edit by ZeroZiat at Oct 12, 2017 5:37:22 PM]
[Oct 12, 2017 5:33:02 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nek0jin

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Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews Reply to this Post
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So I'm looking at ~25 hours of puzzling to get a Sloop, or ~40 for a cutter. Not a small expense. I own an LE Sloop; replacing it if it sinks is another ~25 hours. Is it any wonder that I'm not eager to go out into PvP waters?


Meanwhile on Cerulean, with no mandatory sinking on 2/3rds of the world, a sloop is like 10k poe.

Cerulean, where the total player count is double-digits? No thanks.

Current server status and number of players logged on:

OK Emerald 192
OK Cerulean 33
OK Jade 0
OK Ice 0
OK Obsidian 540
OK Opal 0
OK Meridian 14
[Oct 12, 2017 6:50:04 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

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Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews Reply to this Post
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So I'm looking at ~25 hours of puzzling to get a Sloop, or ~40 for a cutter. Not a small expense. I own an LE Sloop; replacing it if it sinks is another ~25 hours. Is it any wonder that I'm not eager to go out into PvP waters?


Meanwhile on Cerulean, with no mandatory sinking on 2/3rds of the world, a sloop is like 10k poe.

Cerulean, where the total player count is double-digits? No thanks.

Current server status and number of players logged on:

OK Emerald 192
OK Cerulean 33
OK Jade 0
OK Ice 0
OK Obsidian 540
OK Opal 0
OK Meridian 14


I was not advocating playing there. I was highlighting the difference in costs acquiring items that -don't- have a chance to be permanently lost and need replacing unless you choose to risk them as being substantially lower than the place where you may need to replace them frequently.
[Oct 12, 2017 11:58:02 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nek0jin

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Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews Reply to this Post
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So I'm looking at ~25 hours of puzzling to get a Sloop, or ~40 for a cutter. Not a small expense. I own an LE Sloop; replacing it if it sinks is another ~25 hours. Is it any wonder that I'm not eager to go out into PvP waters?


Meanwhile on Cerulean, with no mandatory sinking on 2/3rds of the world, a sloop is like 10k poe.

Cerulean, where the total player count is double-digits? No thanks.


I was not advocating playing there. I was highlighting the difference in costs acquiring items that -don't- have a chance to be permanently lost and need replacing unless you choose to risk them as being substantially lower than the place where you may need to replace them frequently.

I would argue that is as much because it is an old, OLD ocean, and the resulting overall stockpile and cruft of ships has made the market drop due to a significantly lower demand. A newer ocean, even without the always-on PvP rule, would have similarly high demands for ships until most people had the ships that they wanted and used regularly. Although Obsidian has been officially open for several months, it was the official opening and announcement on Steam that resulted in a new surge of players, and therefore a new demand for ships.

Perhaps the price will drop some in the coming months, but as it is now, buying a new ship is not cheap, and the cost of replacing a lost ship (in measure of man-hours spent to earn it) is a significant deterrent to embracing that risk. If the Dubs delivery cost was halved (or, dare I say it, quartered), it would help noticeably.

Even people who enjoy PvP are far less likely to do it when the risk is high and the reward is low. Fixing both of these is the key to keeping a volatile PvP ocean going strong.
[Oct 13, 2017 1:05:51 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jcmorgan6

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Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews Reply to this Post
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So I'm looking at ~25 hours of puzzling to get a Sloop, or ~40 for a cutter. Not a small expense. I own an LE Sloop; replacing it if it sinks is another ~25 hours. Is it any wonder that I'm not eager to go out into PvP waters?


Meanwhile on Cerulean, with no mandatory sinking on 2/3rds of the world, a sloop is like 10k poe.

Cerulean, where the total player count is double-digits? No thanks.

Current server status and number of players logged on:

OK Emerald 192
OK Cerulean 33
OK Jade 0
OK Ice 0
OK Obsidian 540
OK Opal 0
OK Meridian 14


I was not advocating playing there. I was highlighting the difference in costs acquiring items that -don't- have a chance to be permanently lost and need replacing unless you choose to risk them as being substantially lower than the place where you may need to replace them frequently.



That's not really the avenue you want to take with your argument, comparing a Subscriber ocean with a Doubloon ocean isn't fair. If you were to compare Obsidian to a Doubloon ocean, you'll notice Doubloons prices for ships have already been decreased for this reason, as you can compare here.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Jcmorgan6 at Oct 13, 2017 9:47:21 AM]
[Oct 13, 2017 1:10:13 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nek0jin

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I wasn't the one who brought Cerulean into the argument in the first place.

And yes, I'm aware that Dub prices are lower than other oceans, but the fact remains that unless you're talking about people who routinely go on spectacular pillages, loss of a ship is a significant cost for the average player. And that's just considering rebuild cost, not even talking about loss of cargo.
[Oct 13, 2017 8:20:03 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
bahaakbu

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loss of a ship is a significant cost for the average player. And that's just considering rebuild cost, not even talking about loss of cargo.


Roughly about 15 hours of their lives for just the delivery cost of a sloop. Maybe about 5 more for the actual price of the ship. Unless you're a "elite" player getting 2-3k per battle. Balancing the game for those people would be mean to the average players.
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Cheesemighty on Obsidian.
I'm trying to compare the opinions of people on obsidian ocean, and see if the difference is statistically significant. It's anonymous and takes less than 5 minutes: https://goo.gl/forms/6icpkudNjlb1PmcF3
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