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wrs1864b

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Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian Reply to this Post
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Fair enough, but most of those are relatively small in comparison.

You said most, but the ones that aren't relatively small make poker's rake relatively small. In particular, a very large percentage of the PoE you use to buy stuff from stores get sunk either bjying the commodities, the sales tax or the rent. Sales tax is near 10%, after all. Also, the fees on the dub exchange happens a lot. While the poker rake is quite noticeable to poker players, they don't make up a huge percentage of the population, but just about everyone buys stuff from shops and uses the dub exchange.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[Oct 5, 2017 4:35:39 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian Reply to this Post
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You said most, but the ones that aren't relatively small make poker's rake relatively small. In particular, a very large percentage of the PoE you use to buy stuff from stores get sunk either bjying the commodities, the sales tax or the rent. Sales tax is near 10%, after all. Also, the fees on the dub exchange happens a lot. While the poker rake is quite noticeable to poker players, they don't make up a huge percentage of the population, but just about everyone buys stuff from shops and uses the dub exchange.


WARNING DIRTY WORD
AOF Poker

200k buy in 10 players=2m pot 5% rake=100k poesink in one hand
Compair that to any other poe sinks. AOF goes on for 1 hour ish 30 hands played not all would be 100k sunk but in an hour it is reasonable to see 1m poe vanish from the game.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
Filthyjake6145 (discord)
?Retired? On a Break? I found a new love...
Casual player or yet another who moved on.
[Oct 5, 2017 5:44:01 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
jdl1963



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Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian Reply to this Post
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I don't think it's hyperbolic or nonspecific at all, given that his previous sentence was specifically discussing the problem of inflation on older oceans.


Of course you don't. You also believe that two very different statements ("would do a ton of great things for the economy" and "would create a money sink") mean the same thing.

 
Poker has been in YPP for eleven and a half years now. I seem to remember people making similar doom-and-gloom comments about the effects of poker on the overall game then, too, but it's still here, and survived longer than plenty of other MMOs. If anything is hyperbolic here, it's the woeful talk about poker's negative effects on the game.


That the game has survived has precisely nothing to do with the comments on poker - because nobody said the game wouldn't survive. Again, nonspecific hyperbole.
[Oct 6, 2017 11:45:31 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nek0jin

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Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian Reply to this Post
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Is there a point to your blathering here, or are you just trying to score some imaginary forum points in your "dissecting" of others' posts?

I mean, what I said isn't what you're trying to claim I said. I can see how you squint to get there, but it's not what I was saying. So stop with the trollish nonsense, and actually make a point.

Let me help you get something in motion. You made a vague, half-assed assertion that poker was... how did you put it? Oh, here:

 
But discussing the rake is orthogonal to the real issue - which is preventing poker from becoming a drag on the larger game. Large pots are a step backwards in that respect.


Poker's been around in the game long enough that if it were going to become a drag on the larger game, it would have already done so. People have been tarting about it for as long as it's been around, and yet people still go out and do pillages day in and day out.

How would you gauge this "drag" in the first place? How would you be sure it's poker causing it, and not some other facet of the game? Or are you just making an argument by vigorous assertion here, and assuming that by begging the question, people will somehow agree that's the problem?
[Oct 7, 2017 12:09:38 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cutingchris

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Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian Reply to this Post
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I hate poker for the simple reason that it's completely boring. Like honestly when I play it, it's usually just with a friend to have a laugh. While it's fun when you win big, most of the time, you're sitting for about 2 hours and in that time only playing 2/3 hands. My problem with poker isn't that it's "piratey," it's that people would choose the boring option because poe.

I'm guessing they released it on Obsidian for the simple fact that some players had built all this money yet refuse to spend it on a ship/stock because of the PVP aspect. Seems kinda conspiracy theory-esque but I honestly think it's a bad idea raising the stakes for poker.

A rake doesn't seem fair, like someone posted before, it doesn't work like a casino or any real money based poker system. For me there should be a time limit, similar to a labor badge, for how long people can spend on these games. While it seems harsh and I'm being cruel to the pirates who play SF unhealthy-ly, it's the only way both sides could win in terms of having carousel puzzles there, but people aren't spending all their time playing poker on a game based on puzzling

I admit, PP's poker is very well done for a mini-game, but it's not fair on us who like to do voyages, yet get no jobbers because people would rather sit on poker for hours.
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Magneto, Illuminatti Royal

(Also Praetorian on Obsidian)
[Oct 7, 2017 4:26:33 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian Reply to this Post
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I admit, PP's poker is very well done for a mini-game, but it's not fair on us who like to do voyages, yet get no jobbers because people would rather sit on poker for hours


So its not fair we do what we want because you can't get jobbers.... Ok, I often sit on the dock now playing poker on WSoP as I find puzzling for hours and hours boring. I puzzle for 3-6 hours on many days (weekends) so if I wish to poker a bit why not.

Honestly not having the high stakes table is a turn off for me, and while I play a lot I have been finding the the game a little boring as I don't have the time fill when I am watching a movie or other things that interfere with my attention so I chose not to jump on a ship and play poorly. I guess I can with an alt, I will look for pillages of the poker hatters and hit some nice fines... or just laze and straight line.

I also don't SMH in HS' or Lantis much as well filling the ship requires a time fill like poker, as I won't buy the parlor badge until they restore the poker stakes I am limited to 2 days a week. SF for an hour or two is also boring in my opinion.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
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?Retired? On a Break? I found a new love...
Casual player or yet another who moved on.
[Oct 7, 2017 5:16:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
BehindCurtai

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Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian Reply to this Post
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Quick idea: What if all the money that was "sunk" via this poe sink was put into the brigand loot table as bonus pillaging payout?
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"We're trying to find the error bars on that number"

Dylan wrote: 
Why buy sham poo when real poo is so readily available

[Oct 7, 2017 8:09:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://StrictConstitution.BlogSpot.Com [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian Reply to this Post
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Quick idea: What if all the money that was "sunk" via this poe sink was put into the brigand loot table as bonus pillaging payout?


A poe sink is meant to remove money from the game not increase other pay outs to keep inflation in check.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
Filthyjake6145 (discord)
?Retired? On a Break? I found a new love...
Casual player or yet another who moved on.
[Oct 7, 2017 8:44:51 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
BehindCurtai

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Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian Reply to this Post
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But why have a poe sink on poker?

Having a fee to play poker doesn't mean it has to be sunk.
If people complain that poker makes pillaging less desirable, this would just result in pillaging becoming more desirable.
----------------------------------------
"We're trying to find the error bars on that number"

Dylan wrote: 
Why buy sham poo when real poo is so readily available

[Oct 7, 2017 10:09:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://StrictConstitution.BlogSpot.Com [Link]  Go to top 
Nek0jin

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Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian Reply to this Post
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A rake doesn't seem fair, like someone posted before, it doesn't work like a casino or any real money based poker system.


The rake functions in essentially the same way it does in real life - it takes money from the players and gives it to the house. In this case, it's a hand-wavy amount between what is free-to-play funds (since it's PoE, not Dubs), and what will be "re-bought" by buying Dubs and selling them for PoE. But it's very much like a real-world casino or virtual poker site, just a step removed.

Fundamentally, though, all PoE in the system are generated by playing games, and all Dubs in the game are generated by people spending real-world money. The two are linked inextricably.

 
I admit, PP's poker is very well done for a mini-game, but it's not fair on us who like to do voyages, yet get no jobbers because people would rather sit on poker for hours.

This is assuming things that simply aren't true. On "Free" days, Poker gets a few dozen players at peak. On "Badge-only" days, it gets two or three tables. When we're talking about 800+ players on a day*, it's not Poker that is getting in the way of your Pillages.

* At this very moment (a "Badge" day), there's just under 600 people on Obsidian (judged by looking here), and 25 people playing Poker (judged by looking at the Parlor Games list). That's less than 5% of the player base.

Edit: And if you find it personally boring, then fine, don't play it, but don't s**t on the people who do enjoy it.

Edit2: Clarifying and fixing UBB code.
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[Edit 4 times, last edit by Nek0jin at Oct 7, 2017 6:37:05 PM]
[Oct 7, 2017 6:23:59 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jcmorgan6

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Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian Reply to this Post
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Nek0jin wrote: 

* At this very moment (a "Badge" day), there's just under 600 people on Obsidian (judged by looking here), and 25 people playing Poker (judged by looking at the Parlor Games list). That's less than 5% of the player base.


You fail to form a valid argument here if you don't compare it to a standard ocean because you overlook the most important factor (while simultaneously discussing it?!?!?!), which is that less people poker on Obsidian BECAUSE it doesn't have 20-200k tables.

Take Emerald as of my posting.
38/201 = 18%.
(note obsidian is 29/609 or 4.7%, just to remove one independent variable, time of day)

So we can expect 13% more people to be pokering if we introduce 200k tables?

Admittedly, since I'd like to try and be a little less biased, I can acknowledge that there are multiple other reasons that would influence the number of people playing poker across oceans, however I still believe 20-200k is the prime factor;
  • Large ships rarely filling for SMH on Emerald (I /w'd all my hearties, admittedly not the best sample since I only really do Cursed Isles, but there was only one large ship out on Obsidian with 44 players, and none on Emerald)
  • Blockades being active (half-true, since people would still be saving funds)
  • "Old money" - People have had a long time to earn PoE and already own everything they desire. (Minimal amount of people probably poker for this reason)

    Nek0jin wrote: 
    jdl1963 wrote: 
    But discussing the rake is orthogonal to the real issue - which is preventing poker from becoming a drag on the larger game. Large pots are a step backwards in that respect.


    Poker has been in YPP for eleven and a half years now. I seem to remember people making similar doom-and-gloom comments about the effects of poker on the overall game then, too, but it's still here, and survived longer than plenty of other MMOs. If anything is hyperbolic here, it's the woeful talk about poker's negative effects on the game.


    The main issue of poker for me is that it rewards people who don't puzzle, specifically the large sums you can earn in very short time periods. Blockades are a huge part of the game, which on Emerald/Meridian were funded almost entirely by poker funds (SF wagers too of course). We do not want this to be the case on Obsidian.

    The ideal is multiple flag members working together for a blockade, not one poker player who can sit at six 20-200k tables at once - or the player who sits on an AoF table all day and plays more cautiously than the others. This is why Jdl1963's point is so valid.

    I'd reply to more of what you wrote, but I'd be wasting my time, since you'd continue to push your agenda while wearing rose tinted spectacles. I will however let you know, to further what Algol wrote,
    wrs1864b wrote: 
    You said most, but the ones that aren't relatively small make poker's rake relatively small
    that although Filthyjake didn't quote the PoE sinks list exactly he missed out an incredibly large one, Black boxes (presumably since there is no Black Market yet, but it's still equally valid). If you count all black ravens and skeletal monkeys on Emerald and multiply by 50 million (Expected PoE spent per Familiar, given the chance of one)... you will get a very large number.
    ----------------------------------------
    Jjc on Emerald
    CI booty division stats
  • [Oct 7, 2017 8:59:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
    Nek0jin

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    Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian Reply to this Post
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    I'd reply to more of what you wrote, but I'd be wasting my time, since you'd continue to push your agenda while wearing rose tinted spectacles.

    See, that's the problem with this entire conversation. I'm not pushing an agenda. I'm not asking that the Obsidian Poker limit be raised (or lowered, or new "entry fees" be added, or the Rake raised or lowered, or anything else along those lines). I'm not asking anything at all here. I'm just pointing out problems in others' arguments.

    How you see that as "pushing an agenda" baffles me.
    [Oct 7, 2017 11:46:20 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
    Filthyjake

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    Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian Reply to this Post
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    Moved from here


     
     
    How specifically has the game poker killed the ocean.

    No-cap tables made all the money flow around inside inns, but not outside them. Pirates hoarded money to play poker. No ships sailed, no one could job, money stood dockside barely ever leaving the poker tables. Blockades were funded on poker. Doubloons started inflating. People stopped buying doubloons, people stopped buying items, economy kept ballooning, people stopped playing. I think we all know this. Also, if you asked anypirate at the time they'd say that to make money you'd have to play poker, no exceptions.


    The money is still flowing through the inn they increased the pay on pillages and add a rake to poker to offset. Sounds like poor design fixed not the card games fault, like I said if they don't rake the other forms of gambling it will just move to hearts or sf or pick one. Now its AOF all day on 20k tables not poker cause most anyone can lose 20k and they play way more lose. I made my fist Million before ever playing poker I did so on ships. I love poker as a pass time I play it that way instead people stand on the dock merching and trading to make money I hate that part so I poker when I don't puzzle Just got off 2 hr pillage would go sit at table but don't like aof and hate folding pair of 10 while morons go all in with 3 8 off suit. So instead I am hear, then I go to other games and play them instead not sure how that helps the game by not appealing to the player base.

     
    I know you are trying to be ironic and such, but honestly, why'd you retort that. We all know shops produce goods from commodities and when properly managed are a boon to the economy.


    They are not piratey or on the seas. Poker in my opinion are good for the economy. Especially with a rake as a Poe Sink, High stakes tables would eat so much poe it could prevent/reduce inflation. Now people play high stakes at private tables with no rakes, they just bypass the game mechanics and pay each other. Opening up people to theft/scams.

    Again any thing that doesn't allow people to play the way they want is telling them how to play. I like a balance of poker and pillage, with a side of shop keeping. Just like some don't like the rotating maps I don't like the low stakes poker. To each there own, the game needs inflation control to last poe sinks like rakes are a great way to do this, the increased payouts on the ocean are now competitive to pull people out. Pillages used to be over looked as everyone watned to smh as it paid better now you average 10-30k an hour on any of it depending on the wins/losses/ect.... that's much nicer then a few years ago, perhaps the issue wasn't poker but the poor pay outside of the inn.
    ----------------------------------------
    Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
    Filthyjake6145 (discord)
    ?Retired? On a Break? I found a new love...
    Casual player or yet another who moved on.
    [Oct 9, 2017 3:02:26 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
    Scarpath

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    Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian Reply to this Post
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    Okay, a player should be able to play poker because its fun, and it's a part of YPP now, whether you like it or not.(I've never been a fan of it myself, but I've never really hated on it like many do.)

    Without the 2k-20k tables, no one found it worth their time to play poker, and those that did didn't play to the usual strategy that made it 'fun'. With the 20k-200k tables, many players start to play because it's a good way to fund a blockade or earn money quick, not because they enjoy it.

    I think more of the problem with poker is the negative attitude many bring to the table. Just remember folks, its a GAME. If you don't want to risk losing all of your in game currency, than don't play it. Otherwise, just bring a happy attitude and give the changes that the OMs have made a try. All of this anger will only upset everyone.
    ----------------------------------------
    Scarpath on Emerald, Cerulean, and Meridian!

    Also Scarpath on Obsidian, Defiant to the core.

    Your grammar should at least be as good as mine, take the time to make it decent!
    [Oct 9, 2017 4:42:33 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
    Nek0jin

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    Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian Reply to this Post
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    "Never gamble what you can't afford to lose."

    I've said elsewhere that I'm a former Vegas Blackjack dealer, and that line above is just as true for PoE as it is for $$$.
    [Oct 9, 2017 5:27:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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