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Cleaver
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Fleet Officers Reply to this Post
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We are rolling out a new crew rank on Ice today; Fleet Officers. Along with this comes a change to Officer's abilities.

Officers will no longer be able to access the hold on crew ships that they do not personally own. They will still be able to chart, set sail, divvy booty and deliver orders of rum and shot to crew vessels. They will not be able to buy or sell from the hold, or touch money in the hold, or remove charts from the vessel. Of course an Officer will be free to do as they will on their own vessel. In all other respects Officers remain the same.

If you wish to give an Officer the ability to meddle with the hold on crew ships by all means promote them to Fleet Officer. Fleet Officers are the same as Officers with the sole difference that they can plumb the holds of crew vessels (and move charts, etc.) Officers and Fleet Officers have the same icon and there is no new 'Fleet Officer' chat or anything like that.

We are doing this because a recent survey of the OceanMasters showed that they spent a great deal of time resolving thefts. Following the rollout of this feature our official policy will be that crew thefts are the responsibility of the Crew -- that is, that we will not be able to compensate or return stolen goods. We may still ban the perpetrators, because such crimes should not go unpunished, but the upshot of this feature change is to ensure that people understand that they have responsibility for whom they promote and their actions.

Discuss!

(One thing that Nemo is keen on is renaming Senior Officer to 'Commander' as he thinks Fleet Officer sounds better than Senior Officer. Opinions there?)
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Cleaver at Jun 27, 2005 10:11:19 AM]
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Lord_Mogor



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Question Badge cost for doubloon ocean if I understand this right officer badge will work for both officer and Fleet officer and current so badge will cover Commander rank?
/edit Biggest problem I see is restocking
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[Jun 27, 2005 10:13:27 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
rwdw1987

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Cleaver wrote: 


Discuss!

(One thing that Nemo is keen on is renaming Senior Officer to 'Commander' as he thinks Fleet Officer sounds better than Senior Officer. Opinions there?)


I like the move. also I do think a change from Senior Officer to Commander or Fleet commander would be nice.
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Phin
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[Jun 27, 2005 10:14:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    phinthepirate [Link]  Go to top 
fliparend

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Senior Officer should be renamed but not to commander.. thats a navy rank O.o
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[Jun 27, 2005 10:16:05 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cleaver
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Lord_Mogor wrote: 
Question Badge cost for doubloon ocean if I understand this right officer badge will work for both officer and Fleet officer and current so badge will cover Commander rank?

Officer badge will work for Officer and Fleet Officer. Senior Officer / Commander requires an SO badge.
 
/edit Biggest problem I see is restocking

It's an issue, aye. One possible solution is to buy rum from the Booty... but it's feasible to just deliver orders, of course.
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Lord_Mogor



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Then rename the navy rank :P
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PsychoMantis



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Cool.

Although Commander sounds more important than Captain...
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[Jun 27, 2005 10:19:58 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lord_Mogor



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hmm, sounds like a whole different threads needed to debate what to rename so's to
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[Jun 27, 2005 10:20:40 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
jasandrea

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If they can't touch money in the hold, does that mean they have to pay for the rum and shot they deliver with their own funds? Or is there some mechanic that allows them to buy rum and shot from the hold funds?

Edit: Apparently not, based on Cleaver's next post, which wasn't there when I started writing.
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Piplicus_BNO

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I've always wanted an option with map meddling. When I was brought up in Y!PP, only SOs could move charts.

Now, it's officers. When I ran a crew, this was a bugbear for me.

I have got used to the change, but the option is still good.

Perhaps we can have a midshipman crew rank, for officer training?
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meitchrfoo



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Cleaver wrote: 
We are rolling out a new crew rank on Ice today; Fleet Officers. Along with this comes a change to Officer's abilities.

Officers will no longer be able to access the hold on crew ships that they do not personally own. They will still be able to chart, set sail, divvy booty and deliver orders of rum and shot to crew vessels. They will not be able to buy or sell from the hold, or touch money in the hold, or remove charts from the vessel. Of course an Officer will be free to do as they will on their own vessel. In all other respects Officers remain the same.

If you wish to give an Officer the ability to meddle with the hold on crew ships by all means promote them to Fleet Officer. Fleet Officers are the same as Officers with the sole difference that they can plumb the holds of crew vessels (and move charts, etc.) Officers and Fleet Officers have the same icon and there is no new 'Fleet Officer' chat or anything like that.

We are doing this because a recent survey of the OceanMasters showed that they spent a great deal of time resolving thefts. Following the rollout of this feature our official policy will be that crew thefts are the responsibility of the Crew -- that is, that we will not be able to compensate or return stolen goods. We may still ban the perpetrators, because such crimes should not go unpunished, but the upshot of this feature change is to ensure that people understand that they have responsibility for whom they promote and their actions.

Discuss!

(One thing that Nemo is keen on is renaming Senior Officer to 'Commander' as he thinks Fleet Officer sounds better than Senior Officer. Opinions there?)


first reaction, without reading the rest of the thread...why not something like "Petty Officer". Or Officer First Class...or "demote" officers, making them Midshipmen, and then "Officers" have the full access....

just my 2 cents, more in a minute, possibly...

me
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Lord_Mogor



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It's an issue, aye. One possible solution is to buy rum from the Booty... but it's feasible to just deliver orders, of course.






hmm, I would say allow em to buy just cbs an rum with the crew cut of the money, but thats open to abuses I wonder which would be the least abusable
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meitchrfoo



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i also don't know if this can be combined, or seperate from "midshipman", but an "officer in training" designation. Perhaps they get it, they can talk in officer, but not flag...or they can talk in flag so that the flag can help support in training, also? and/or perhaps an option that the captain can give that option?

me
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Balky wrote: 
cleaver has the most piratey looking face... he's just ....soooo.... sooo... squishable


Kittyn - princess of Raptus Regaliter
[Jun 27, 2005 10:26:44 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
sweetnessc

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my initial reactions:
- new officers will be cut out of being able to use crew ships, the time that they are most needed
- this institutionalizes abuse of newer officers by forcing them to 'donate' stock to the crew, since they will have to deliver bulk orders in order to be able to use a ship, and will not be able to take back any excess
- non-fleet officers will be forced to make large capital investments in either rum and cbs on each island they may visit, at the time in their play experience they can least afford it - before they can afford the investment in their own ship
- possibility for high level of abuse on blood pillages when the officer in command tells the jobbers they can't give a share of blood poe because they can't sell the blood
- non-fleet officers may assume they aren't responsible for covering restocking if the crew cut doesn't cover it, since they won't be able to see buy/sell prices from the ship, and if they do go to the trouble of going to the market to check it out, by the time a fleet officer logs in to restock, prices may have changed significantly
- non-fleet officers will not be able to move hold contents to a safe location while they use the ship, probably leading to more instance of newer officers losing someone else's goods that were in the hold

to be honest, i have difficulty seeing how a responsible crew can give officers a good play experience without making them fleet officers. and it opens a new world of opportunity for cheaters to scam new officers by refusing to give them full fleet officer status, thereby denying them blood, commods, ship supplies and crew cut that would otherwise belong to them. i would prefer OOO to take the direct approach and decide to not police the ocean rather than create new opportunities for abuse.

edit: i have also realized that i must not understand what the job of the OMs is, if resolving theft is not to be part of it. i would appreciate any insight anyone could give me.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
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[Edit 3 times, last edit by sweetnessc at Jun 27, 2005 10:28:53 AM]
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ianargent

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Damn that's going to make restocking a crew ship a LOT harder; if you can't buy booze or balls dockside. Also, one of the fringe benefits of leading a pillage in many crews is you get to keep the restock remainder.

For that matter, it means you're going to HAVE to own your own ship to do trading. (Unless you're trading in booze or balls)...
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meitchrfoo



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how do you deliver orders if you don't own a distillery or im?

perhaps an option in the divvy, "current stock - rum - x, current stock - cb's - x....purchase?" and bring up that screen for purchase out of crew cut. Then, if it does not fill, then it can come out of the officer pocket....

I also suggest that you have the option to ADD to the hold (i.e. crew ships, so i could have my crew add surplus...this would also work for flag ships, so we don't have to go track down someone in that crew), without being able to take out.

me
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cleaver has the most piratey looking face... he's just ....soooo.... sooo... squishable


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[Jun 27, 2005 10:30:11 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cleaver
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A few things;

- We debated Petty Officers and Midshipman but decided that changing the name of established ranks was *bad*, and this change would be pointless if we didn't make all existing officers effectively the new rank. Better to have to promote all your mates than have to demote the 'untrustworthy'.

- You can still sell blood from the divvy.

- You can always sail your own boat and do everything.

- I like the idea of buying rum / cb's dockside from the crew cut... but it may be very fiddly to implement.

- You can add to the hold by delivering goods there.
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Jacktheblack

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Would an officer be allowed to transfer rum and shoot into any ship into the crew? Could some ships be designated supply ships, in which any officer has access, and move rum and shot to other ships?

Personally I am thinking that not many crews are going to use the rank because of all the problems that could be caused by it, and like other I see a larger potential for abuse, then I do see as a benefit.
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sweetnessc

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one question: would it still be possible for a non-fleet officer to sell commods from the booty chest before divvy, and at least give people a part of the blood poe? edit: sniped by cleaver. i guess there would be a workaround to get the crew cut to the OIC by reducing the crew cut to zero then docking everyone but the OIC by one battle to compensate for it without the cut getting dropped into the hold.

and one comment: it would be nice to have simultaneous implementation of the permission list idea for who can do what on your boat, or at least to be able to appoint someone as 'honorary owner' until they disembark from the ship. otherwise, the ship owner will have to stay with a pillage from beginning to end, and cannot hand it off to a non-fleet officer who doesn't own the boat.
----------------------------------------
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by sweetnessc at Jun 27, 2005 10:41:43 AM]
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Flak_88

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[quote= "Cleaver"] You can always sail your own boat and do everything. [/quote]

This is the kicker, I think this makes it an excellent idea, however the final implementation goes. If you are paranoid you can deal with it this way and with locked vessels. I still see a lot of theft going on with those who just use fleet officer for all, but then it's the captain/SO's problem, not the OMs.
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sweetnessc

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if the OIC can only restock by delivering orders, it would be nice if there were a new option for the crew cut to be delivered from the booty to the OIC instead of getting dropped into the hold. this would allow manual sharing of the poe with everyone who earned it, or allow the OIC to pay for the pre-ordered ship supplies.

after some thought, the idea seems like a workable one. what is disappointing to me is that official Three Rings policy will be to not resolve (and therefore presumably not to punish) outright thefts.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
----------------------------------------
[Edit 2 times, last edit by sweetnessc at Jun 27, 2005 10:47:47 AM]
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ianargent

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That's an EXTREMELY good point. Right now, under this proposal, if I'm an officer sailing a ship not my own, there's NO WAY for me to get paid back for the restock I have to do. You can't order stuff dockside, after all.

I mean, it seems like such an oversight, but if officers can't remove money from the hold, they can't restock, except out of their own pockets. Ummmmm.....
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I don't mind the text sometimes, the images it shows.
Running from the Ds and Ls, and killing all the Os.
Faded prints and subtle hints and fortune cookie lies.
You never ID all your stuff, until your @ sign dies.
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as_a_child



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I think I understand what you've said, Cleaver, but my disclaimer is that I may not fully understand what you've said no to, so here's what I'd like to see:

Ranks:
CP
Pirate
Midshipman (make it an official rank- this is very important! Right now, trust is fine, but a former crew of mine had to deal with at least three instances of untrustworthy OiTs. In order to train them, they had to promote them to officer, and then the OiTs ran off with goods/ships)This is also very useful for those in the crew who don't know who the OiTs are. Thus, O's, SO's and Captains can train OiTs at a glance. Midshipmen cannot take a ship out without approval of an SO or Captain through some game-implemented system (maybe simply a dialog box that says "Midshipman Lyd requests permission to take the Floundering Flounder for 'such and such' time. Permission granted?" with a message box or something.
Officer- same as before, except they cannot access the holds of ships. I propose that rum and shot are the only exceptions.

Fleet Officer- Full officer privileges.
Senior Officer- I propose this name gets changed to First Mate or something of the like. That sounds really cool, and definitely sounds "above" Fleet Officer. Commander sounds higher than the captain.
Captain- normal captainship privileges.

And I am also totally disappointed that you will no longer resolve thefts. I understand, but still, it's something (like everything) that will be worked around.
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Nemo wrote: 
Crystallina wrote: 
Wow. I need to puzzle more. This is the first time I've *ever* heard of this.

Don't feel bad, I make the game and I'm lost. I think they're speaking a different langauge.

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[Edit 1 times, last edit by as_a_child at Jun 27, 2005 10:58:07 AM]
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popeye09

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Re: Naming.

How about this:

Keep the ranks the same as now, no new ones.

SO=SO still, as before.
Officer=New "Fleet officer" idea, access to all ships.
Pirate=The new downgraded version of an officer.

I never did understand why a pirate couldn't sail their own ship. Would there be a problem in letting them do this?

p.s. On a related note, it would be nice if there was a game-play distinction between officers and SOs.

....hmmmm, actually, if ye don't want pirates to be able to sail their own ships, why not Fleet Officers=SOs, and solve all the naming problems! (For oligarchic crews, have several Cap'ns instead of none as is at the moment, where the SOs rule the crew.)
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RaelShark

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I have to point out that even though this change is a direct reaction to an practical issue for the OM's, it's something many of us have been wanting for a long time - refinement between the Officer and Senior Officer levels. Large crews really need something like this.

Thanks a lot for adding it, whatever the reason.
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[Jun 27, 2005 11:11:26 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.ransackmarauders.com [Link]  Go to top 
ianargent

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OK - the lightbulb just came on. Officers are deliberately supposed to be crippled now - they serve the role of midshipman...

Note, if I can access the hold's money for restock, I can steal almost as much money just by having a distillery/IM with outrageous dockside prices when I want to restock...

I really think you ought to rename the current rank as midshipman and keep the upgraded rank as officer. Otherwise the entire ocean will be able to eat breakfast for a year on the tarts alone.

Also, this is really going to make the requirement that an officer have a ship be a lot more concrete...
----------------------------------------
I don't mind the text sometimes, the images it shows.
Running from the Ds and Ls, and killing all the Os.
Faded prints and subtle hints and fortune cookie lies.
You never ID all your stuff, until your @ sign dies.
[Jun 27, 2005 11:11:37 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cleaver
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as_a_child wrote: 
Midshipman (make it an official rank- this is very important! Right now, trust is fine, but a former crew of mine had to deal with at least three instances of untrustworthy OiTs. In order to train them, they had to promote them to officer, and then the OiTs ran off with goods/ships)This is also very useful for those in the crew who don't know who the OiTs are. Thus, O's, SO's and Captains can train OiTs at a glance. Midshipmen cannot take a ship out without approval of an SO or Captain through some game-implemented system (maybe simply a dialog box that says "Midshipman Lyd requests permission to take the Floundering Flounder for 'such and such' time. Permission granted?" with a message box or something.

Eep, fiascoville. Barring some kind of 'schedule ship-outing' this is basically just the same as Pirate. I agree that an Officer in Training rank could be useful, but I am having a hard time considering what they couldn't do that an ordinary (new style) Officer could.
 
Officer- same as before, except they cannot access the holds of ships. I propose that rum and shot are the only exceptions.

Alas, then they can clean out a lot of crew stocks and we're back to square one. It's kind of all or nothing.
 
And I am also totally disappointed that you will no longer resolve thefts. I understand, but still, it's something (like everything) that will be worked around.

It's something that really should be primarily the responsibility of the Crew. Trust your (Fleet) Officers!
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Cleaver at Jun 27, 2005 11:13:01 AM]
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Darkaardvark

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I've always been a little leery of new ideas (such as the new booty divvy), but they've always worked out in the end. I'm hoping this will be the same, however, it worries me.

Heres what I KNOW will happen with the majority of officers. Take out the ship, fine. Port, divvy, fine. Leave. No ship sailed by an officer will ever be restocked. Of course, the crew cut will still be in the hold and FOs/SOs/captains can always restock. But this may lead to lots of ships being taken out without being fully stocked.

What's the problem with allowing the usage of the trade commodities button? Not the market bidding, just trading commodities. Worst most officers would be able to do is buy up rum and cannonballs at a high price, which could just be sold by the SO for a whopping 2 poe loss per unit. Ohno.

To be honest, there are ways you could get all the money from the sihps hold (hint, owning a stall) but most pirates who are at that level in the game (officer and owning a stall) are not likely to steal. And in the end, you shouldn't be making random people officers. I heartily endorse the officer-in-training rank, to this end.

I don't want to run around restocking my ships every time I log on!

EDIT: In my defense, about 3 people posted before me saying just what I was saying. I still believe it makes mroe sense to allow people to trade rum and CBs
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Darkaardvark at Jun 27, 2005 11:20:03 AM]
[Jun 27, 2005 11:20:03 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
shagie



Joined: May 26, 2004
Posts: 1050
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Re: Fleet Officers Reply to this Post
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Suggestion:

For an officer, the buy/sell for the hold is limited to ship supplies. Only the buy button is available.

This means that if someone is keeping large amounts of poe on an unlocked crew ship, they could have that used in overstocking.

You could have an officer buying with the crew cut from their own overpriced stall. This would likely end as soon as someone looked at ship records and is not any worse today than simply not restocking.

This should give enough resources to the officer to be able to buy the necessary goods to restock without being able to touch the rest of the goods in the hold.

The only remaining way to steal goods from the hold would be to take the ship out and lose to someone else repeadtily in battle. The way to properly track this is to record who hits the deport and port button in the ships log and who the last one to set sail from a league point in the event of an auto-divy.
[Jun 27, 2005 11:30:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lord_Mogor



Joined: Apr 7, 2005
Posts: 518
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Re: Fleet Officers Reply to this Post
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Prehaps to cut-down on the whole hold issue which I really don't see much point in limiting the new "officer" in is the poe going into the ship hold after a booty divvy as with the global purse mates tend to keep their poe on hand. A bank ship isn't used for pillaging as far as I know. hmm, While I'm posting prehaps giving the "commanders" in a crew thats in a flag the ability to take over a pillage an act as an officer temporarly (on the condition that there is no other officer online from the crew in question at the time) on board that ship with the majority vote of the mates on board could also reduce the amount of effort OM"s need to put into rescuing mates from officer'less vessels
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[Jun 27, 2005 11:31:07 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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