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Jcmorgan6

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Is PvP Harassment? Reply to this Post
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This thread is about the differences between.

PvP while at war
PvP while not at war.

So according to the OMs, it is okay for a player(Gulfstreams) to attack the same other player 3 times in sinking PvP (ex-member of my crew who shall remain unnamed) and sink him 3 times.

However attacking the same vessel 3 times while not at war, with no intention of shooting at them, is suddenly considered Harassment.

The member of my crew had Able Bnav (so not even a fair fight).

In my opinion the first attacks are much worse than the second.
Discuss.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Jcmorgan6 at Dec 19, 2015 4:09:07 PM]
[Dec 19, 2015 3:54:37 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
patgangster

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Re: Is PvP Harassment? Reply to this Post
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Pvp is a mechanic of the game; by pressing "set sail" you're opening yourself to being pvped. As long as the pvp happens with the intention of the attacker actually fighting (and not attacking the same exact ship repeatedly after weary runs out while it's at high damage/bilge, not allowing them to fix and not even taking much since they won't have a lot left in the hold/booty after the first few times), it's not harassment.

The point in "difference between scenario 1 and scenario 2" you're trying to make is not in "players are at war", it's in the "no intention of shooting".
The second scenario is worse because rather than (after pressing the attack button) attacking them as you should be doing, all you do is waste their (and your) time.

Also, if someone finds that they're being pvped several times while at war, you'd expect them to realise that people are after them and call in help from their crew/flag/hearties, or not run pillages while the war is going on.
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[Dec 19, 2015 6:00:47 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
EmpressTamar

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Re: Is PvP Harassment? Reply to this Post
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The point in "difference between scenario 1 and scenario 2" you're trying to make is not in "players are at war", it's in the "no intention of shooting".
The second scenario is worse because rather than (after pressing the attack button) attacking them as you should be doing, all you do is waste their (and your) time.

Exactly this. It's only harassment if you don't plan to actually shoot and then grapple within a reasonable amount of time.
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[Dec 19, 2015 8:20:53 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Re: Is PvP Harassment? Reply to this Post
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by pressing "set sail" you're opening yourself to being pvped

Can anyone provide a ringer quote on that? I mean, I've heard that said many many times by players, but last time I went looking, I could find nothing from ringers. In particular, I've heard that engaging someone more than once per league point can be considered harassment, but if the other party keeps hitting sail at league points, you can engage as many times as you want. Yes, the booty/hold of the other ship drops, but only by 25% each time. It is quite profitable to PvP a gem running many times.

The impression I get is that OMs take things on a case by case basis and they aren't that consistent.


 
The second scenario is worse because rather than (after pressing the attack button) attacking them as you should be doing, all you do is waste their (and your) time.

I seem to recall a case where one flag was PvP'ing another flags floating ships, just to waste time. The argument was that was a legitimate game goal.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[Dec 20, 2015 6:08:28 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
patgangster

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Re: Is PvP Harassment? Reply to this Post
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I remember reading something along those lines a long time ago; I've searched a bit and couldn't find any quote on it either though.

Also, hitting a gem runner several times isn't THAT profitable either - because of gems being taken at twice the usual rate you already have 50% of their gems in one attack, 75% in two. Let's say someone has 25 gems and you take 12/6, you're taking 3 next time... that's hardly worth it at all anymore.


As for floating ships, I hadn't even thought of those. You could make an argument that it's the only real way to disrupt floaters since they don't really care about losing battles at all.
...But then again, does anyone still float boats these days considering we have swabbie transports and the massively increased swabby counts on larger boats?
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TriplePat, Emerald.
[Dec 20, 2015 9:44:41 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Re: Is PvP Harassment? Reply to this Post
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I remember reading something along those lines a long time ago; I've searched a bit and couldn't find any quote on it either though.

Thanks for looking too. Really, my post was meant to just point out how ill-defined "griefing" is in this game.

 
Also, hitting a gem runner several times isn't THAT profitable either - because of gems being taken at twice the usual rate you already have 50% of their gems in one attack, 75% in two. Let's say someone has 25 gems and you take 12/6, you're taking 3 next time... that's hardly worth it at all anymore.

You can easily hold more than 25 gems on a sloop. Sure, you will lose some to gem thieves, but shipping 250 instead of 25 still makes the loss worth while.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[Dec 20, 2015 10:46:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LJAmethyst

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Re: Is PvP Harassment? Reply to this Post
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I remember reading something along those lines a long time ago; I've searched a bit and couldn't find any quote on it either though.

Thanks for looking too. Really, my post was meant to just point out how ill-defined "griefing" is in this game.


Can we really expect it to be well-defined here? Puzzle Pirates is an open-ended game, with lots of possibilities and emergent gameplay. It stands to reason that there are a million ways to play the game and within those ways, thousands of ways to cause trouble for other players that are counter to the "spirit of the game". This is precisely why such a phrase is enshrined in the TOS: because many of us know the culture of this game, and we know what is acceptable and what is not, but if you asked us to define it precisely we would simply scratch our heads. As a judge once famously said of pornography, "I know it when I see it". And I think we simply need to trust the OMs to know griefing when they see it.
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[Dec 20, 2015 11:40:35 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.newadvent.org/bible/jon001.htm [Link]  Go to top 
Faulkston

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Re: Is PvP Harassment? Reply to this Post
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wrs1864b wrote: 
patgangster wrote: 
by pressing "set sail" you're opening yourself to being pvped

Can anyone provide a ringer quote on that?

What about this?
Sophocles, on the page https://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Official:FAQs#Do_I_have_to_play_puzzles_against_other_players.3F wrote: 
You can also avoid player-versus-player play at sea by sticking to the Navy, as Navy vessels cannot be attacked by players. Any other vessel at sea bears the possibility of player-versus-player puzzling

It was Sophocles who entered the original text
https://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/index.php?title=Official:FAQs&diff=next&oldid=48215
There's been some relatively minor changes over the years.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Faulkston at Dec 20, 2015 12:38:34 PM]
[Dec 20, 2015 12:34:25 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/search [Link]  Go to top 
Thunar_Midi

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Re: Is PvP Harassment? Reply to this Post
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Some years back I requested rules of PVP engagement as I could find none. I was told that
 
...engaging someone more than once per league point can be considered harassment, ...

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[Dec 20, 2015 12:55:02 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
jlh0605

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Re: Is PvP Harassment? Reply to this Post
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Some years back I requested rules of PVP engagement as I could find none. I was told that
 
...engaging someone more than once per league point can be considered harassment, ...

That is kind of what I think too.
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[Dec 20, 2015 2:48:56 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Hidden to Guest [Link]  Go to top 
LJAmethyst

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Re: Is PvP Harassment? Reply to this Post
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I think we can all agree that setting sail on a voyage is consent to be PVP'd but not carte blanche for attackers to do anything they want to us within the framework of PVP.
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[Dec 20, 2015 3:22:24 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.newadvent.org/bible/jon001.htm [Link]  Go to top 
Belthazar451

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Re: Is PvP Harassment? Reply to this Post
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Think the complaint being made is not that being attacked three times in the same LP is griefing, but rather that the same attacker has sunk the same defender on three different ships, but it's not counted as griefing. Since we're talking about a wartime situation, it essentially means the defender has lost a ship, gone out in a new one, and has been hunted down again by the same attacker. Twice.

My response is, well, inter arma enim silent leges. =)

Probably should have taken the hint after the second sinking.
[Dec 20, 2015 6:00:05 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LJAmethyst

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Re: Is PvP Harassment? Reply to this Post
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Think the complaint being made is not that being attacked three times in the same LP is griefing, but rather that the same attacker has sunk the same defender on three different ships, but it's not counted as griefing. Since we're talking about a wartime situation, it essentially means the defender has lost a ship, gone out in a new one, and has been hunted down again by the same attacker. Twice.

My response is, well, inter arma enim silent leges. =)

Probably should have taken the hint after the second sinking.


Right. Maintaining a crew inside a warring flag is totally optional for enjoying the game. At any point in the hierarchy they can choose to opt-out of the war mechanic. Royalty could send a truce. Captain could leave the flag. Officer could leave the crew. Failing any of these actions, I'd say it's pretty fair for an aggressive PVPer to go after n00bs who think they can take out a ship during a state of war.
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[Dec 20, 2015 6:07:28 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.newadvent.org/bible/jon001.htm [Link]  Go to top 
BobJanova

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Re: Is PvP Harassment? Reply to this Post
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All's fair in love and war, apart from deliberate sabotage (e.g. using an alt in someone's crew to float out their ships for sinking, as someone did to me once, and got banned for it).

In my opinion, any PVP is legit if you are trying to achieve something by it, either taking a worthwhile amount of booty or sinking a ship in war. If you repeatedly attack the same ship you've already beaten, your winnings will be minimal (less than PVPing someone else), and there isn't much argument that you're doing that for reasons other than griefing. If you engage people at war and sink them repeatedly, you are accomplishing something with each attack (a sink) and that's fine.

Deliberately targeting someone over different voyages could be seen as harassment, if there isn't a good reason for it. A war definitely counts as that, and so would e.g. a trade argument or that person often running high value cargo.
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[Dec 23, 2015 11:46:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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Re: Is PvP Harassment? Reply to this Post
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Jcmorgan6 wrote: 
This thread is about the differences between.

PvP while at war
PvP while not at war.

So according to the OMs, it is okay for a player(Gulfstreams) to attack the same other player 3 times in sinking PvP (ex-member of my crew who shall remain unnamed) and sink him 3 times.

However attacking the same vessel 3 times while not at war, with no intention of shooting at them, is suddenly considered Harassment.

The member of my crew had Able Bnav (so not even a fair fight).

In my opinion the first attacks are much worse than the second.
Discuss.

Apples and oranges.

Engaging and then sinking the same player via PvP is not griefing.

Repeatedly engaging the same ship and not actually attacking within the battle is griefing.

In the first one, yes the same player is hunted again and again, and it can suck, but the attacker is taking action.

In the second one, the attacker is simply attempting to waste the target's time. Another unacceptable behavior would be if the attacker would only shoot the target's ship in order to prolong the battle.
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moonthafr100

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Re: Is PvP Harassment? Reply to this Post
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I used to pvp quite often back 2008-2012 or so. I would attack ships regardless of strength, from light blue to dark red. I would attack regardless if there was 200k booty on the other ship, or 0 poe, I would attack regardless of hearties on the other ship, or if I had fought the ship earlier. If I knew there was a warring ship at sea, I would go sink it.

When you set sail, you have the ability to avoid being pvped if you can duty navigate better than the attacking ship. I would never consider getting pvped harassment, even if a nuisance, you should be able to learn from your past events. If you can't dnav well enough to save yourself, and are in war, consider leaving that crew/flag, as that is what war is.
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[Dec 23, 2015 8:26:42 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
budclare2

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Re: Is PvP Harassment? Reply to this Post
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I would never consider getting pvped harassment, even if a nuisance,

You haven't ever seen it so it can't possibly happen?

I once got dragged along while a now-former hearty blatantly trolled the pillage of someone he was mad at (for some unspecified reason that was probably stupid). He was in full tantrum mode for over an hour before I yelled at him. He was a much better bnavver than the poor bastard he was mad at, and had a better crew. Naturally the other guy got intimidated and avoided him as much as possible during battles, which just made the little creep even more angry. After the third engagement, with him planning a fourth, I got pissed off and left. He. Would. Not. Stop.

It was bullying, period.

I'm still a little miffed that he managed to dehearty and mute me before I could dehearty and mute him. He's crazy-fast at the deheartying...though with his gross emotional issues, he must get a lot of practice.

/e wonders if he's going to see this, get mad, and try bullying her :D
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[Dec 24, 2015 9:25:53 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Luxory

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Re: Is PvP Harassment? Reply to this Post
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I would never consider getting pvped harassment, even if a nuisance,

You haven't ever seen it so it can't possibly happen?

I once got dragged along while a now-former hearty blatantly trolled the pillage of someone he was mad at (for some unspecified reason that was probably stupid). He was in full tantrum mode for over an hour before I yelled at him. He was a much better bnavver than the poor bastard he was mad at, and had a better crew. Naturally the other guy got intimidated and avoided him as much as possible during battles, which just made the little creep even more angry. After the third engagement, with him planning a fourth, I got pissed off and left. He. Would. Not. Stop.

It was bullying, period.

I'm still a little miffed that he managed to dehearty and mute me before I could dehearty and mute him. He's crazy-fast at the deheartying...though with his gross emotional issues, he must get a lot of practice.

/e wonders if he's going to see this, get mad, and try bullying her :D


I've done something similar to this post and had an ocean master actually hop on my ship and lock it. Although this was "years" ago, I raged pretty hard that day.
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budclare2

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Re: Is PvP Harassment? Reply to this Post
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I've done something similar to this post and had an ocean master actually hop on my ship and lock it. Although this was "years" ago, I raged pretty hard that day.

I shouldn't laugh, but I totally am. I didn't know OM-locking was even a thing. :D
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Budclare on Meridian

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deltaruler

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Re: Is PvP Harassment? Reply to this Post
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This thread is about the differences between.

PvP while at war
PvP while not at war.

So according to the OMs, it is okay for a player(Gulfstreams) to attack the same other player 3 times in sinking PvP (ex-member of my crew who shall remain unnamed) and sink him 3 times.

However attacking the same vessel 3 times while not at war, with no intention of shooting at them, is suddenly considered Harassment.

The member of my crew had Able Bnav (so not even a fair fight).

In my opinion the first attacks are much worse than the second.
Discuss.


The silly engagements in which was involved 2/3 different pirates (maybe 1 alt includes) during the previous day are obviously inspired this thread, because Jcmorgan
was one of them. Wordlessly was the second pirate in this arranged sabotage of my attempt to establish new record about done Expeditions in one pillage at the beginning of the holidays. They kept engaged my war brig just to waste our time and ultimately to ruin the attempt. The reason is me being hated upon my reputation and recently sinking at war Jcmorgan's ships. I dont mind to trade shots with any target, but the intruders kept running (mostly without success) without getting frei. I had to manage self-defence to keep them busy, but having 3 sloops around the war brig wasn't easy in order to have my focus on the actual pillage battles. So, again, i don't mind being target, but wasting the time of my jobbers was rude. Jcmorgan got scared and testing the system here to insure his future in YPP.

For more info and sexy screenshots you may visit my Rogue One facebook's blog.

P.S. All sinks were done by my main by changing the crews any time i want and any silly attempts to start blaming me of using alt are pointless, on which false accusations Codefish had lost me as Hearty.

P.S. #2
Sadly i had to disengage for first time ever using 'Brutal Fate' in order to save jobbers time, because the sloop was half battle map away keeping just running.
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