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wrb03

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Selling rl stuff Reply to this Post
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Is it against the terms of service to sell items for poe such as a puzzle pirates bumper sticker? If it is ok, would you sell it in shore leave or bizarre. I saw some people had sold or traded some magic the gathering cards in shore leave a while back. This was for cash i assume not for poe.

Thanks,

Jublain
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- Jublain (Cerulean)
- Captain of Knot Working
- Avatar By Jublain
[Feb 16, 2014 11:24:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LJAmethyst

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It's not OK.

Terms of Service, 7.8:

 
Auctions and Sales. It is against Three Rings policy to allow accounts, characters, items, subscription time or money to be sold - for real money, on auction sites, or otherwise. We will ask auction sites to respect this policy. We only allow trading of Yohoho! Puzzle Pirates items within the game in exchange for other Yohoho! Puzzle Pirates items. We do not allow trades concerning any other game's accounts, characters, items, or money to be performed, advertised, or solicited. We will terminate accounts that we believe are in violation of this policy.

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Retired as of August 2015.
2 Timothy 4:7
[Feb 16, 2014 12:17:51 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.newadvent.org/bible/jon001.htm [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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The ToS says you can't sell in game items for RL money, but it doesn't say you can't buy RL items with PoE. People sell things like avatars for PoE all the time.

Am I missing something?

That said, when in doubt, petition.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[Feb 16, 2014 12:54:31 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Belthazar451

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Is there a glossary somewhere? This might be legalism, but what exactly constitutes an "item"? The wording of that clause suggests to me they're referring to in-game items rather than real-world merchandise.
[Feb 16, 2014 12:54:53 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrb03

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So technically at least it sounds like you could buy items with poe but not sell them for cash. It seems like it is a one way street. This makes sense because while you wouldn't want people farming poe and selling it having the ability to give poe for things is only a poe sink.

Any Devs or oceanmasters care to comment?
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- Jublain (Cerulean)
- Captain of Knot Working
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[Feb 16, 2014 1:31:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
celestfury

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Re: Selling rl stuff Reply to this Post
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So technically at least it sounds like you could buy items with poe but not sell them for cash. It seems like it is a one way street. This makes sense because while you wouldn't want people farming poe and selling it having the ability to give poe for things is only a poe sink.


I'm not a lawyer, but I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

From the Terms of Service:
 
Auctions and Sales. It is against Three Rings policy to allow accounts, characters, items, subscription time or money to be sold - for real money, on auction sites, or otherwise. We will ask auction sites to respect this policy. We only allow trading of Yohoho! Puzzle Pirates items within the game in exchange for other Yohoho! Puzzle Pirates items. We do not allow trades concerning any other game's accounts, characters, items, or money to be performed, advertised, or solicited. We will terminate accounts that we believe are in violation of this policy.


Trades are most definitely included in this. Trading PoE for a real life item is trading outside of the system, and therefore not allowed.

Trading one real life item for another (MTG cards, for example) probably won't anger anyone, and I can't pinpoint precisely where the legal jargon for this is, but I'd definitely wager there's something in it. Just be very careful if you want to do this, and it's probably time to drop the idea if anything starts to look dodgy.

Then you have the trading of one real life Puzzle Pirates item for another - same as above, except you're involving copyright, and if it's something Three Rings is already trying to profit from (such as bumper stickers) you're probably about get in trouble.

If you really want the merchandise, I've got two suggestions.

First is the official Puzzle Pirates store, which you can find here: http://www.zazzle.com/dreadringers
Postcards, t-shirts, bumper stickers, mugs and more. They once had the option to put your in-game portraits on mugs but I believe that's gone. There is zero legal problems with this method.

The other option (and I'm not sure about the legal matters on this one, but I have a hard time believing you'll be banned for it - they'd probably even appreciate the advertising) is to find a local store that makes personalised items like Zazzle. Find the measurements you need for the object you want. You can then go to the forums and have your chosen arrrrtist create an image for you in those measurements, and pay them for their work in PoE. You now have an image and a place to put it onto a bumper sticker for you. :)
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~~ Carsomyr ~~
Senior Officer of Bootleg Bandits on Meridian
Senior Officer of Crew Snag Answer C on Emerald
( ^ - ^ )/~~~~~@
[Feb 16, 2014 6:27:27 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LJAmethyst

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The bottom line, whether or not it is against TOS, is that these are trades not performed by using the in-game Trade Window. These trades have always been highly discouraged by Ocean Masters as they are not enforceable. It is just like you typing /pay Scammer 9000000 for a parrot that he says he will give you later. Since you did not use the trade box, Scammer is not particularly bound to deliver that parrot to you, and now he has your money. Since RL items can never be put into an in-game trade window, it would be at the very least discouraged to trade them using your in-game PoE.
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Retired as of August 2015.
2 Timothy 4:7
[Feb 16, 2014 6:43:59 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.newadvent.org/bible/jon001.htm [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Re: Selling rl stuff Reply to this Post
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Trading PoE for a real life item is trading outside of the system, and therefore not allowed.

Again, if that were true, how do you explain all the avatar shops in the mariner's muse forum?

And, again, if you want to know for sure, petition an OM. No player can either ban you or prevent you from being banned. The ToS are loose enough that OOO can ban you for anything they want to and OOO policies are not always consistent or logical.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[Feb 16, 2014 7:26:40 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
celestfury

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Trading PoE for a real life item is trading outside of the system, and therefore not allowed.

Again, if that were true, how do you explain all the avatar shops in the mariner's muse forum?


Three Rings provide the opportunity for avatars, it's part of the system and it's "Participatory Content". Three Rings has rights in regards to your avatar, and could very easily be considered a "Yohoho! Puzzle Pirates Item". The same can't be said about physical items which are not in the possession of Three Rings.

This also isn't a legal system - Three Rings specifically are the ones who uphold the rules, and they're not required to ban for every offense, or to let every loophole through. They may very well allow it to happen, but you've got no argument if they choose not to, because it's still in the Terms of Service.
 
Participatory Content. As part of our interactive approach, Three Rings provides you with certain opportunities to submit your own ideas, text, graphics, plots, characters, feedback and other materials while you participate in the Games, bulletin boards, chat rooms and other activities in the Site or Services (collectively, "Participatory Content"). By submitting any Participatory Content, you represent and warrant that you are the owner of or have the right to post your Participatory Content, and your Participatory Content does not infringe the rights of any third party. You hereby grant Three Rings a perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, sub-licensable, worldwide, royalty-free license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, distribute, publicly display and perform any and all of your Participatory Content in all media now known or later developed. You, and not Three Rings, are entirely responsible for all of your Participatory Content that you upload, post, email or otherwise transmit via the Site, Services or Games.

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~~ Carsomyr ~~
Senior Officer of Bootleg Bandits on Meridian
Senior Officer of Crew Snag Answer C on Emerald
( ^ - ^ )/~~~~~@
[Feb 16, 2014 8:27:09 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Re: Selling rl stuff Reply to this Post
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Trading PoE for a real life item is trading outside of the system, and therefore not allowed.

Again, if that were true, how do you explain all the avatar shops in the mariner's muse forum?


Three Rings provide the opportunity for avatars, it's part of the system and it's "Participatory Content". Three Rings has rights in regards to your avatar, and could very easily be considered a "Yohoho! Puzzle Pirates Item"

I don't think that is right. The "participatory content" applies to things like game design suggestion, or portrait back grounds, or the crafting puzzle contests. Avatars usually don't go through the forums, except for examples and the initial offer to sell.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[Feb 17, 2014 3:55:56 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LJAmethyst

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Yeah, I don't think it is necessary to grant Three Rings a license to any and all avatars made by an independent artist if they aren't entering a contest or playing a company-sponsored game. Participatory Content doesn't apply in those cases.

However, it is long-standing precedent that Three Rings permits players to use PoE to pay for avatars and similar things. It is pretty clear that if an item is closely related to the game, such as it's going to be used on the forums, then it is acceptable to trade PoE for it. Tangible RL items such as bumper stickers aren't exactly in this category, so it's more of a grey area.
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Retired as of August 2015.
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[Feb 17, 2014 10:12:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.newadvent.org/bible/jon001.htm [Link]  Go to top 
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