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Holysleven



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More and more, pillages are elite and cit-runs are "Ren+" blah blah blah. I'll never be an amazing 1 v 1 swordfighter, but I know what I'm doing in team matches, but that doesn't matter. I feel less like playing every day because I know I can't go on most of the fun stuff because I'm not rated high enough. I just feel alienated that the entire game is now based on your 1 v 1 SF skill and nothing else.
[Jul 25, 2013 10:01:05 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
MSpartans

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And when I hire just anyone off the nb for my pillies where are you?
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Huntard
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[Jul 25, 2013 10:19:01 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Holysleven



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On what ocean? I apply to ever atlantis I see on the NB, rarely get accepted...
[Jul 25, 2013 10:51:39 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Chavez67

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You kids don't know how good you've got it. In the old days, we had the Sea Battle Ranking.

Ugh, that was a nightmare.

The only way to get ultimate was to job on krakens blood pillages, and the only way to get invited to krakens blood pillages was to have an ultimate SBR. And if you ever lost on another pillage anywhere else your rank would drop, so there was an actual game mechanic disincentive to pillaging with your friends, even as a jobber, that was completely meaningless to the outcome of the fight but was essential to making money. It was nuts.
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I did it.
clarify
It was me.

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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Chavez67 at Jul 25, 2013 11:35:18 AM]
[Jul 25, 2013 11:20:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Holysleven



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And they removed that because it was dividing the community, now there's a similar problem brewing...
[Jul 25, 2013 11:36:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Inframan8

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And they removed that because it was dividing the community, now there's a similar problem brewing...

Navers want to win as much as they can and to do that they need the best crew they can get. I feel like it has been this way for a while though. You should still be able to get on Brig pillies and some Atlantis trips. What ocean do you play on?
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Inframan
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[Jul 25, 2013 12:09:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Holysleven



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Meridian
[Jul 25, 2013 12:15:34 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
MSpartans

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On what ocean? I apply to ever atlantis I see on the NB, rarely get accepted...


/e refers to the *pillages* side of your post (Emerald)
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Huntard
Aug 12, 2011
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[Jul 25, 2013 12:23:37 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
DementedDuck

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Instead of playing less, have you considered getting better at the things you're not good at? People screen because when jobbers perform better, the run is more successful. That's especially important in sinking environments when a navver is putting his ship and stock at risk, as well as his reputation and everyone's time.

Any monkey can learn to be ultimate in any puzzle, with the possible exception of very speed-based puzzles (like gunning) in which some people (often older people) will never have good enough reaction time. You can make excuses all you like, but they won't improve your rank or skill.

As for "never being an amazing 1v1 swordfighter", well, I went from novice/able to broad/GM very quickly when I finally decided I wanted a SF rank. And that's not because I'm a fast learner, it's because I spent several years on cit runs and voyages getting better at team fighting. The two skills are more closely linked than people seem to think. If you're truly a good team fighter, you should be able to get a good SF rank.
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Evilduck/Superduck.
Emerald, Cerulean, and that other one.
Now in Obsidian flavour.

I record puzzles.
[Jul 31, 2013 3:48:19 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cartrunner

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Ducky I love you.
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Ye told Hera, "eggspammer."
Ye told Hera, "reported."
Hera tells ye, "<3"

Aurorakim tells ye, "you're my new hero"
[Jul 31, 2013 8:47:53 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
DementedDuck

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I think of you every time I write these. <3
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Evilduck/Superduck.
Emerald, Cerulean, and that other one.
Now in Obsidian flavour.

I record puzzles.
[Aug 1, 2013 3:42:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cartrunner

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I think of you every time I write these. <3

Awww, you're a sweetheart.
----------------------------------------
Ye told Hera, "eggspammer."
Ye told Hera, "reported."
Hera tells ye, "<3"

Aurorakim tells ye, "you're my new hero"
[Aug 4, 2013 1:45:42 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
laladibla

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Instead of playing less, have you considered getting better at the things you're not good at? People screen because when jobbers perform better, the run is more successful. That's especially important in sinking environments when a navver is putting his ship and stock at risk, as well as his reputation and everyone's time.

Any monkey can learn to be ultimate in any puzzle, with the possible exception of very speed-based puzzles (like gunning) in which some people (often older people) will never have good enough reaction time. You can make excuses all you like, but they won't improve your rank or skill.

As for "never being an amazing 1v1 swordfighter", well, I went from novice/able to broad/GM very quickly when I finally decided I wanted a SF rank. And that's not because I'm a fast learner, it's because I spent several years on cit runs and voyages getting better at team fighting. The two skills are more closely linked than people seem to think. If you're truly a good team fighter, you should be able to get a good SF rank.


You say that, but some people just aren't that good at puzzling. I puzzled my way to Expert experience in sailing and yet I've never been able to get above Master level. And that's my best >.>

Some people just aren't as good at figuring this kind of stuff out and picking it up as easily and effectively as others, and the OP is right, there is a serious problem with this, as there are usually ever only one or two pillagers around who don't care about ratings.

I can't even remember the last time I saw something like a CI where unless you were friends with the runner you had to be master or ren+ in certain things.

I understand that people want the best jobbers they can find, but that is making the vast amount of people who can't join in on that not want to even play because they know that they won't be jobbed!

Nearly as mad as Sea Battle Ranking.
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Visionary/Visionarye - Coming soon to an ocean near you!

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[Aug 5, 2013 6:22:42 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
BobJanova

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Well now for pillaging I agree that too many people are trying to be 'elite' (this is particularly annoying when the bnavver is no good but demands top jobbers). You can have some fun and the pay is around half as much with open jobbing, and pillaging's supposed to be inclusive. But for CI, if you take less good jobbers then you are more likely to sink, much more likely to get sent home early (with <10 CCs) and your net payout from runs like that is probably negative, never mind bearing comparison with the standard jobbing profile (Ren+).
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Bobjanova on Viridian and Malachite
Shops and stalls with fair and profitable wages for all: Jubilee, Napi, Chelydra
Stripped/Barely Dressed (Malachite)
Phantasm/Reign of Chaos (Viridian)
[Aug 5, 2013 10:52:39 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
DementedDuck

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As I've said multiple times lately, any monkey can learn to be good at a puzzle. I know it's easier for some people than it is for others, but it's possible for everyone.

If you really struggle that much, you either aren't asking/looking for help, or you aren't finding the ways that work for you. I'm not one of those people who can learn in any way, I have to learn a particular way, so I can relate.

I am more than willing to spend time teaching people to puzzle. I can recommend all sorts of videos, point you at written tutorials, puzzle on Teamviewer/skype and explain what I'm doing and why, watch you on TV/skype/video and point out where you're going wrong and what you're doing right, I can make videos specifically for you, and I can give you written tips. I've had complete strangers ask me to do these things and obliged. If you really want to learn to puzzle, hit me up.
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Evilduck/Superduck.
Emerald, Cerulean, and that other one.
Now in Obsidian flavour.

I record puzzles.
[Aug 5, 2013 5:09:13 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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As I've said multiple times lately, any monkey can learn to be good at a puzzle. I know it's easier for some people than it is for others, but it's possible for everyone

No, it is *NOT* possible for everyone to get good at a puzzle. The game scores people relative to other people. There will always be 50% of all players who have done a puzzle in the last 10 days that will be ranked either Able or Proficient. Always. No matter how hard they try. It is the very definition of Able/Proficient.

The game *MUST* be fun for those players or the game needs to change.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[Aug 5, 2013 5:19:39 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
xelto

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No, it is *NOT* possible for everyone to get good at a puzzle. The game scores people relative to other people. There will always be 50% of all players who have done a puzzle in the last 10 days that will be ranked either Able or Proficient. Always. No matter how hard they try. It is the very definition of Able/Proficient.

The game *MUST* be fun for those players or the game needs to change.

Quoted for emphasis. And sorry, I've seen people playing regularly for years who have problems hitting respected. It's not that they don't try, it's simply that everyone's brain is wired differently, and some people just don't have the raw talent for puzzling. I had a 3.5 GPA through school... including a respected university... barely studying. It took me decades to realize that no, it wasn't lack of will or anything like that on everyone else's part. I just came with a natural knack for it. On the other hand, I've also realized that no matter how much I try to learn disc golf, I'm always going to be a duffer. Fortunately, I can have fun being a duffer anyway. I just avoid playing with the pros, and complain whenever they modify an already hard course because "it's just too easy."
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Gurndigarn on Emerald Ocean
"Oh, come on. You jobbed onto a ship called the Cursed Isle Raider and you expected *refined*?"
[Aug 5, 2013 7:31:40 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Hillsmen

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You kids don't know how good you've got it. In the old days, we had the Sea Battle Ranking.

Ugh, that was a nightmare.

The only way to get ultimate was to job on krakens blood pillages, and the only way to get invited to krakens blood pillages was to have an ultimate SBR. And if you ever lost on another pillage anywhere else your rank would drop, so there was an actual game mechanic disincentive to pillaging with your friends, even as a jobber, that was completely meaningless to the outcome of the fight but was essential to making money. It was nuts.


Glad I had ult SBR.
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Captainrich
[Aug 5, 2013 8:13:55 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
DementedDuck

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As I've said multiple times lately, any monkey can learn to be good at a puzzle. I know it's easier for some people than it is for others, but it's possible for everyone

No, it is *NOT* possible for everyone to get good at a puzzle. The game scores people relative to other people. There will always be 50% of all players who have done a puzzle in the last 10 days that will be ranked either Able or Proficient. Always. No matter how hard they try. It is the very definition of Able/Proficient.

The game *MUST* be fun for those players or the game needs to change.

The relative ranking is only really a relevant point if everyone suddenly decides they want to get better at every single puzzle. That's never going to happen, so there's always going to be the capacity for those who do want to try to get better.

And xelto, I respectfully disagree. I've touched on this point in an indirect way a few times in my recent posts. There's a difference between being good at a puzzle and learning how to score well. Not everyone can be skilled in a puzzle and have the ability to improvise and adapt to situations. But anyone, with enough commitment, can learn what steps to follow in order to get a decent rank. Ultimate? No, probably not in most puzzles. Renowned+? Yeah.
----------------------------------------
Evilduck/Superduck.
Emerald, Cerulean, and that other one.
Now in Obsidian flavour.

I record puzzles.
[Aug 5, 2013 10:07:45 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
xelto

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And xelto, I respectfully disagree. I've touched on this point in an indirect way a few times in my recent posts. There's a difference between being good at a puzzle and learning how to score well. Not everyone can be skilled in a puzzle and have the ability to improvise and adapt to situations. But anyone, with enough commitment, can learn what steps to follow in order to get a decent rank. Ultimate? No, probably not in most puzzles. Renowned+? Yeah.

Sorry, no. I belonged to the world's largest regularly meeting boardgame group. We get a respectable number of greenies, some of whom arrive down at the "able" level. And since we like a good challenge, most of us will share strategy hints with them. Now, this is very hands-on. It isn't something like saying "here's a website with a guide": it's more like Patgangster standing behind them while they're carping and saying "this piece will be better over there because of [reason]." Most people eventually improve to the master-or-higher level. But some people never do, no matter who much they try. And some of those people return for years, despite not winning much.

... And there was one person who had trouble learning rules, no matter how much patience we had in explaining them. Over and over. And over. And over. And she kept coming back anyway. But that's another story.
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Gurndigarn on Emerald Ocean
"Oh, come on. You jobbed onto a ship called the Cursed Isle Raider and you expected *refined*?"
[Aug 6, 2013 4:30:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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As I've said multiple times lately, any monkey can learn to be good at a puzzle. I know it's easier for some people than it is for others, but it's possible for everyone

No, it is *NOT* possible for everyone to get good at a puzzle. The game scores people relative to other people. There will always be 50% of all players who have done a puzzle in the last 10 days that will be ranked either Able or Proficient. Always. No matter how hard they try. It is the very definition of Able/Proficient.

The game *MUST* be fun for those players or the game needs to change.

The relative ranking is only really a relevant point if everyone suddenly decides they want to get better at every single puzzle. That's never going to happen, so there's always going to be the capacity for those who do want to try to get better.

OK, so you agree that it *ISN'T* possible for everyone. That's a good first step.

But, now you need to understand that it is a problem more often that if "everyone suddenly decides they want to get better in every puzzle." The "every puzzle" part is pure BS and completely irrelevant, key puzzlers are important. And it doesn't have to be sudden.

Labor puzzles such as distilling and shipwrighting have constant pressure to get to Renowned+ in order to provide offline expert labor. I see it regularly when I try to get a new alt up to ren+. My getting an alt up to Renowned causes someone else to drop down, so they push the bar slightly higher, thus pushing my new alt down. This can go on for several days until someone gives up trying to get to ren+. Over time, the performance needed to get there has gone form distilling at cc6+6 to cc12. Shipwrighting hasn't been quite as bad, but you are still closer to doing the maximum posssible on every board.

It isn't quite as bad in SF/rumble, but ren+ is needed for the skellie/zombie missions. On those, I have give up, I dislike 1v1 PvP enough that it just isn't worth it to me to work on my stat.

And, going back to what the OP said: "More and more, pillages are elite and cit-runs are "Ren+" blah blah blah. " If OOO allows elitism to control the game, they will forever have a shrinking player base as more and more people give up trying to get to ren+ and it is impossible for everyone to get to ren+. Indeed, only 15% of the players will ever be able to do that, so cit runs are off-limits to 85% (if everyone requires ren+).

Plane and simple. The game *MUST* be fun for all players or the game needs to change.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
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TexasBeesh

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When the ocean was packed and hopping, I had good stats. Ren + in Carp, Sails (Leg woot!), Bilge and SF. I know how to play these puzzles and I do well on the Duty Report.

I'm not too hard on myself about it as I know I am a good player and I have come to understand I am ranked against everyone else on the ocean. The gap is growing.

It is getting harder to rank up. My expert distiller is no longer able to get expert as the amount of CC has gone way up! Even at 75 poe for expert, it was hard to keep a steady provider so I closed shop.

I have made enough wonderful hearties that will gladly take me and my mediocre stats. I can see how those that are new would have a hard time and things would not be fun for them.

 
And, going back to what the OP said: "More and more, pillages are elite and cit-runs are "Ren+" blah blah blah. " If OOO allows elitism to control the game, they will forever have a shrinking player base as more and more people give up trying to get to ren+ and it is impossible for everyone to get to ren+. Indeed, only 15% of the players will ever be able to do that, so cit runs are off-limits to 85% (if everyone requires ren+).

Plane and simple. The game *MUST* be fun for all players or the game needs to change.


Yep!
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Seatexan - on the Midnight side of Cerulean
LOW RACK PRICES AT DRESSED TO KILL - NAMATH
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randomact

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To get rid of elitism you'd probably have to get rid of stats altogether.
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[Aug 6, 2013 6:14:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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To get rid of elitism you'd probably have to get rid of stats altogether.

You could make standings viewable only by the pirate themselves. Or, make the publicly displayed standings just be not-ult/ult (maybe display leg also). Sure, bnavvers could try filling their ships with only ult pirates, but ults tend to be horrible/picky jobbers and there aren't many of them.

But, eliminating elitism isn't really that important, as long as the game is fun/profitable for even Able players (25% of all players). Getting paid more for doing better is fine as long as everyone can get paid a reasonable amount.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by wrs1864b at Aug 6, 2013 6:26:03 AM]
[Aug 6, 2013 6:25:04 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
DementedDuck

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Two things, Algol: firstly, your tone is insulting. Secondly, not everyone in the game cares about their puzzling stats. Not everyone's enjoyment of the game is dependent upon voyages, elite or not. There is always going to be a section of the game's population that will be happy with low stats, allowing for the rest of us to rise above them.

Xelto, the thing is, those people who were unskilled and still returned were doing so because they had fun anyway. I doubt you ever have people sticking around who aren't having fun. There's a large number of people on this game who'd rather whine about elitism than do anything to improve. And that's annoying, especially when the majority of these threads are about people wanting to get onto cit runs and CIs. I've said it so many times, people risk their ships and stock for those runs, so of course they're going to screen jobbers. You have to suck it up and live with it, or suck it up and improve. It's not fair to ask the navvers to lower their standards because then it's no fun for them. And nobody has the right to tell people to sacrifice their own enjoyment for the enjoyment of others.

I realise the game's population is declining and that is sad. But I prefer this to a game full of people who are lazy, entitled and spoilt.
----------------------------------------
Evilduck/Superduck.
Emerald, Cerulean, and that other one.
Now in Obsidian flavour.

I record puzzles.
[Aug 6, 2013 6:40:44 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Two things, Algol: firstly, your tone is insulting.

Sorry, just following your lead

 
There is always going to be a section of the game's population that will be happy with low stats, allowing for the rest of us to rise above them.

Sure, but the current game design means that about 50% of all players need to be in that category, which is unreasonably large.

 
I've said it so many times, people risk their ships and stock for those runs, so of course they're going to screen jobbers. You have to suck it up and live with it, or suck it up and improve. It's not fair to ask the navvers to lower their standards because then it's no fun for them. And nobody has the right to tell people to sacrifice their own enjoyment for the enjoyment of others.

Yeah, I agree with you. It is *MUCH* easier for bnavvers to run a ship filled with elites. They don't have to worry about not getting full moves, or have empty guns and the bots make fewer "stupid" moves so they are much easier to predict. Most bnavvers who make "elite" runs just simply do not have the skill to run non-elite ships.

I can understand their fear of sinking.

That doesn't make for a good game design though.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[Aug 6, 2013 7:56:27 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
DementedDuck

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You're right, it's not good game design. Luckily this isn't a thread in, or about, Game Design. Perhaps you'd be better off posting there.
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Evilduck/Superduck.
Emerald, Cerulean, and that other one.
Now in Obsidian flavour.

I record puzzles.
[Aug 6, 2013 9:42:17 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
xelto

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I've said it so many times, people risk their ships and stock for those runs, so of course they're going to screen jobbers. You have to suck it up and live with it, or suck it up and improve. It's not fair to ask the navvers to lower their standards because then it's no fun for them. And nobody has the right to tell people to sacrifice their own enjoyment for the enjoyment of others.

Actually, I'm not arguing against that. I primarily run CIs, and am usually elitist myself when doing so. What I'm arguing against is the claim that anyone can become renowned+, mostly because I've met some people who, simply put, can't; and saying "suck it up and get better" isn't going to work in their cases.

I also think OOO needs to do some things to make it so that less experienced/skilled players have something to do with their bravery badges other than be turned down for essentially every single thing out there. But that's for another thread.
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Gurndigarn on Emerald Ocean
"Oh, come on. You jobbed onto a ship called the Cursed Isle Raider and you expected *refined*?"
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elbeejay

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So you guys are right about the fact that at a given time, only x% of active players in a given puzzle will be Renowned or better etc. But, someone running a CI isn't going to care if they have a jobber with ultimate in sails and sublime/able in rigging, carpentry, patching, and bilge if that jobber can sail for them.

It is definitely true that every pirate can't go off and obtain renowned+ in every puzzle at the same time, and yes, some people have a greater aptitude for puzzling than others. But if anything it is gradually becoming easier to obtain that renowned+ in a duty puzzle and get yourself a spot on a more exclusive run because there are more duty puzzles than there once were. I know when most forum lurkers here started playing we only had sails/carp/bilge as our three basic duty puzzles. Now that's expanded to patching and rigging giving people two more puzzles to try and beat out the rest of the puzzling population at.

I hope you all see the point I am trying to make. If someone considers themselves to be a poor puzzler, it is not impossible for them to take the puzzle they have the most skill in and hone that skill to get themselves in the top 15% or whatever it may be in that puzzle.






On an unrelated note, since when did elite turn into renowned+? When I was green I was told I needed to get to Grand-master to get a spot on an elite pillage.
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-Elbee on Hunter, Sage, Viridian, and Malachite
[Aug 6, 2013 2:57:45 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Yogibear99

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Re: Alienating your Community Reply to this Post
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Just keep puzzling
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Ursidae
[Aug 6, 2013 3:21:26 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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