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LJAmethyst

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What to do with historical crew and flag categories? Reply to this Post
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For example, Category:Sage Ocean crews. Category:Sage Ocean flags has been deleted, yet Category:Sage Ocean pirates is still being actively maintained as a record of pirates which originated on the Sage ocean.

The crew and flag categories are a patchwork of deletion; some are partly depopulated, but the work was not done. I object to depopulating and deleting these categories, because like the pirate categories which are all still actively maintained, the crew and flag categories contain valuable historical information about which crews existed at the time of ocean merge.

The discussion that has already taken place is a patchwork as well. It is on various user talk pages as well as category talk pages, and so far, not enough people have expressed opinions so as to form a clear consensus.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by LJAmethyst at Jul 14, 2013 3:20:26 PM]
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Twittly

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Re: What to do with historical crew and flag categories? Reply to this Post
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I am for keeping the historical value. Why delete them?
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REJBELLS

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Re: What to do with historical crew and flag categories? Reply to this Post
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I object to all that historical info having been deleted. One of the things that makes PP such a rich and vibrant game is its History.

This is not just some fly-by-night ,work thru levels.. move on to another game. This is a community of REAL PEOPLE.
Every Pirate ever created has contributed , one way or another, to today's game.
Minor or Major.. It's still the Music of the Waves.
Our Music...
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The Titan. The Kraken.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by REJBELLS at Jul 14, 2013 3:36:32 PM]
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Franklincain

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Re: What to do with historical crew and flag categories? Reply to this Post
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All of these obsolete categories have been (and continue to be) in the process of being retired, as editors update the individual articles on specific pirates, crews, and flags.

Case in point: The "Crew" category pages for Midnight and Cobalt were ALREADY DELETED by the time that I started looking into this matter. (Ref.) Given the precedent already set, plus the explicit statement from one of the administrators, it is reasonable to presume that ALL of these old categories are to be retired.

Please note, I am NOT saying that we are losing any info; every single article on each and every pirate, every crew, and every flag will still exist. It is just the CATEGORY pages that are being retired.

(Edit)

Just in case, I thought it would be appropriate to specifically note which three pages we're discussing. If you've not seen these three pages, please take just a moment to look at each of them. Each is just a list of subcategories, an index if you will.

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Franklin W. Cain (Pirate FranklinCain on Meridian and other Oceans)
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Franklincain at Jul 14, 2013 5:10:55 PM]
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Twittly

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Re: What to do with historical crew and flag categories? Reply to this Post
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It may be so they are being deleted, but _why_. Why is it beneficial to delete history?
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LJAmethyst

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Re: What to do with historical crew and flag categories? Reply to this Post
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If the crew and flag categories are obsolete, then why are the pirate categories still under active maintenance with no objections heard?

And why are the categories obsolete when it hurts nothing to leave them in place? Articles can be in multiple categories at once. We don't have to sacrifice tagging articles as "Emerald Ocean crews" just because we want to keep them in "Hunter Ocean crews" or "Sage Ocean crews".

Categories are intended as an aid to reader navigation. If a user of YPPedia comes to us and says "how can I find a list of all crews that existed on Sage at the time of the ocean merge?" we can show her Category:Sage Ocean crews. (Category:Defunct Sage Ocean crews also exists, and I have seen no movement to depopulate or delete these categories.)
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by LJAmethyst at Jul 14, 2013 4:54:42 PM]
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Franklincain

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Re: What to do with historical crew and flag categories? Reply to this Post
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A pirate who no longer exists (deleted) is still in one of the old categories. A crew or flag which no longer exists gets recategorized into the "defunct" category for their former ocean.

Now, to be consistent, I would advocate in favor of establishing "defunct" categories for these deleted pirates (just the same way that deleted crews and flags are being done). Why this has not already been done, I don't know.
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Franklin W. Cain (Pirate FranklinCain on Meridian and other Oceans)
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Franklincain at Jul 14, 2013 5:02:59 PM]
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LJAmethyst

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Re: What to do with historical crew and flag categories? Reply to this Post
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No, pirates who still exist belong to the historical categories. See my pirate article.

EDIT: The subject of the following discussion was not categories, but retaining historical information in article text.
I posted this in May 2012 to a centralized discussion board, and Franklincain appeared to agree with me .

I have consistently applied this to all pirate pages updated . There has been no reversion or objection to handling pirates this way. So why treat crews and flags differently?
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by LJAmethyst at Jul 14, 2013 5:48:36 PM]
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Franklincain

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Re: What to do with historical crew and flag categories? Reply to this Post
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You are comparing apples to oranges. Your quote of my text referred to keeping ACTUAL CONTENT WITHIN A PAGE, and *not* WHICH INDEX THAT PAGE IS FILED INTO.
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Franklin W. Cain (Pirate FranklinCain on Meridian and other Oceans)
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Franklincain at Jul 14, 2013 5:47:56 PM]
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LJAmethyst

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Re: What to do with historical crew and flag categories? Reply to this Post
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Yes, I was wrong and you are right about what it said. Sorry I did not read it closely. I am just trying to pull in all the discussion that has occurred on this topic.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by LJAmethyst at Jul 14, 2013 5:47:47 PM]
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Franklincain

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Re: What to do with historical crew and flag categories? Reply to this Post
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No, pirates who still exist belong to the historical categories. See my pirate article.

And mine, as well, FWIW. ;-)
But then, that's because - AS I UNDERSTOOD at the time - that was "the way to do it" (i.e. it was in accordance with what I perceived to be the working consensus).

Now, if we go with my point (in this thread, above) about making a "defunct" set of categories for deleted/retired pirates, then I'll be yanking out those old categories from my pirate article. But for now, since it has been the consensus (as I saw it) to keep pirates in the old categories but update or else retire crews/flags, I'm complying with (my understanding of) the current consensus.

Hope this helps. ;-)
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Franklin W. Cain (Pirate FranklinCain on Meridian and other Oceans)
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Pianoman1125

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Re: What to do with historical crew and flag categories? Reply to this Post
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OK, let's take a step back and a deep breath everyone. Just for clarification, here was the consensus among those of us who were doing the massive reshuffle of articles after the merger happened.

All original ocean pirate/crew/flag categories would eventually be deleted. However, they were not to be deleted until after they were empty. All pirates/crews/and flags were going to be looked at after the merger happened and shuffled into 1 of 2 categories: original ocean defunct if they were no longer active or new ocean if they were. Once the original ocean category was empty, it would be deleted. Any historical notes about existence on previous oceans would be included in the article itself but we wanted to keep the categories fairly straightforward and simplistic. We had plans to do this to all the pirate/crew/flag articles but just ran out of steam and it never got completed.

I hope that clears our intentions up.

~The Maestro
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Muffynz
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Franklincain

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Re: What to do with historical crew and flag categories? Reply to this Post
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All original ocean crew/flag categories would eventually be deleted.

OK, that was my understanding.

I presume this means I can resume working on porting over Crew/Flag articles.
 
All original ocean pirate categories would eventually be deleted.

Since we do not (yet) have the corresponding "(original ocean) defunct" categories for Pirate articles, I presume this part is still on hold.

Thanks!
Franklin
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Franklin W. Cain (Pirate FranklinCain on Meridian and other Oceans)
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Pianoman1125

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Re: What to do with historical crew and flag categories? Reply to this Post
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Yes, you can resume porting crew and flag pages into original ocean defunct if they no longer exist or are no longer active and into new ocean if they are active on the new ocean. Once the old categories are gone, we'll take care of deleting the shells. In the flags and crews that are active on the new oceans, we've been taking great care to include a line "Originally formed on the X ocean" either in the header paragraph or first paragraph to maintain that information. Please try to keep that consistently included where appropriate.

Just a reminder to everyone that no actual information is being deleted in this process. Nothing in the historic record is being lost. Pages are merely being reassigned categories to better reflect the current state of the oceans and all data and records are being maintained.

~The Maestro

/edit Sorry, missed the second part of your question. Pirates were planned at some point but for right now, they can wait until after the crews and flags are all done.
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Muffynz
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Pianoman1125 at Jul 15, 2013 7:23:04 PM]
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Franklincain

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Re: What to do with historical crew and flag categories? Reply to this Post
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Pirates were planned at some point but for right now, they can wait until after the crews and flags are all done.

Fair 'nuff. ;-)
Just wanted a clarification, since this point had come up earlier.

By the way, there are already a few ways we can determine which original ocean a Pirate/Crew/Flag was on. I thought it would be appropriate to document in this thread some of these methods.

For a Pirate, you can look at their trophy page online (i.e.: via the Yoweb tool), and then do a text-search (usually the "F3" function) for the work "banner". If the pirate in question was created before the ocean merge, then that pirate should have the corresponding trophy named "(old ocean) Banner" (for ex.: "Viridian Banner").

For a Crew or Flag, you can use the "History" tab in the wiki page for that Crew/Flag to see what original, pre-merge ocean it started on.

Finally, I do like the idea of having this information incorporated into the actual text of the article in question. So if I didn't do this for any article I've already "ported", then please feel free to make that change yourself, if you'd like.

Franklin
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Franklin W. Cain (Pirate FranklinCain on Meridian and other Oceans)
Avatar by FireOpal
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Franklincain at Jul 15, 2013 7:38:23 PM]
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LJAmethyst

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Re: What to do with historical crew and flag categories? Reply to this Post
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Just a reminder to everyone that no actual information is being deleted in this process. Nothing in the historic record is being lost. Pages are merely being reassigned categories to better reflect the current state of the oceans and all data and records are being maintained.


If nothing is being lost, then where can I go to read a list of all crews active on the Sage ocean at the time of the merge?

I will also remind you that consensus can change. There were a lot of things going on during the ocean merge that some of us were occupied. I did not have a chance to voice my opinion at that time, I spoke up when I finally noticed that a historical category I had added for a crew or flag turned up red. It seems that there are other people interested in going a different way now as well. So perhaps we should re-evaluate the consensus today.

Can you point to talk pages where this consensus took place at the time? I was not privy to any public discussion of these decisions. I have found all kinds of talk pages where I brought up the subject later on, and only one person expressed any kind of opinion about it.

I still don't understand why these categories can't be preserved. It is not like an "either-or" situation where categories are mutually exclusive. These articles can be members of multiple categories. This will take very little work once the historical articles are all processed. It is not burdening anyone.

The general philosophy of the YPPedia that I have experienced is that we keep historical information. This is equivalent to a database query that yields useful results. The suggestions that have been made to find this information are not acceptable means of querying the database, as it were. The information that would remain would be "out of band" as it were, and not accessible in a meaningful way to the end-user, or even to editors, who may for example want to iterate over all members of a list. Those lists will be gone.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by LJAmethyst at Jul 15, 2013 8:58:15 PM]
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Fannon

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Re: What to do with historical crew and flag categories? Reply to this Post
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Just as one point - even had we kept those categories, they still would have been completely inaccurate. We ran across a large number of already deleted crews/flags when doing the update. Had we left the categories as-is for "historical value" they would have been historically inaccurate.

There were discussions, I don't remember offhand where they were, and consensus was generally that so long as the historic information was retained on the individual pages themselves, that nothing would be lost by removing those categories. The process of updating all of the crews/flags was simply never completed which is why some of the old categories still exist.

Also, everything Muffynz said.
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LJAmethyst

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Re: What to do with historical crew and flag categories? Reply to this Post
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Well, accuracy is an important factor. Thank you for explaining that.
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LJAmethyst

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Re: What to do with historical crew and flag categories? Reply to this Post
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Well, the information is being truly lost now, as I have detected many edits in the past 30 days which have overwritten the historical ocean name and not even placed it in the prose which is how I thought we agreed it shall be done.

Example edit
How I fixed it

It would be helpful if some other people helped me go through the history of edits in the past 30 days and recover this information. It can still be had in the article history, but of course as you know, that is "out-of-band" information and not useful to anyone but a hardcore editor who knows what she is looking for and knows where to find it already.

With pirates, it is even possible to know their former ocean by checking their yoweb trophies for the "<Ocean> Banner" trophy. This is not the case with crews.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by LJAmethyst at Jul 22, 2013 11:04:40 AM]
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Franklincain

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Re: What to do with historical crew and flag categories? Reply to this Post
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You can use the page's "History" tab.

Franklin
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Franklin W. Cain (Pirate FranklinCain on Meridian and other Oceans)
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LJAmethyst

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Re: What to do with historical crew and flag categories? Reply to this Post
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You can use the page's "History" tab.

Franklin


Ljamethyst wrote: 
It would be helpful if some other people helped me go through the history of edits in the past 30 days and recover this information. It can still be had in the article history, but of course as you know, that is "out-of-band" information and not useful to anyone but a hardcore editor who knows what she is looking for and knows where to find it already.


Don't admonish me about where to find it. It is being deleted from articles against consensus. It should not be deleted in the first place. We have consensus to preserve this information. Now do it right the first time and don't make someone like me clean up after you.
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Franklincain

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Re: What to do with historical crew and flag categories? Reply to this Post
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It should not be deleted in the first place. We have consensus to preserve this information.

I am not "deleting" anything. I am updating the names of the oceans; that is a change (not a deletion).

Can you please show any quote from the messages above where anyone (other than you, that is) says that changing the name of an old ocean into the name of the corresponding new ocean is some kind of "deletion"? If not, then I ask you please tone down your comments.

(Edit):
I was not "admonishing" you. I was pointing out a solution to the "problem" you had cited.
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Franklin W. Cain (Pirate FranklinCain on Meridian and other Oceans)
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[Edit 3 times, last edit by Franklincain at Jul 22, 2013 8:12:12 PM]
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Thunderbird

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Re: What to do with historical crew and flag categories? Reply to this Post
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When you change the ocean and don't make any mention of the ocean they started on, that is deleting information, since the originating ocean is no longer on the page. And saying that it's in the page history is no substitute.
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Franklincain

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Re: What to do with historical crew and flag categories? Reply to this Post
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Thank you, Thunderbird. I've already included this in the most recent changes I've made.
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Franklin W. Cain (Pirate FranklinCain on Meridian and other Oceans)
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