• Play
  • About
  • News
  • Forums
  • Yppedia
  • Help
Welcome Guest   | Login
  Index  | Recent Threads  | Register  | Search  | Help  | RSS feeds  | View Unanswered Threads  
  Search  


Quick Go »
Thread Status: Normal
Total posts in this thread: 28
[Add To My Favorites] [Watch this Thread] [Post new Thread]
Author
Previous Thread This topic has been viewed 7921 times and has 27 replies Next Thread
mordemorde1



Joined: Jul 25, 2012
Posts: 1
Status: Offline

Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

Alas it finally has come true. After talking with galene we have come to the conclusion if you are willing to risk and not get caught much like speeding you can get free familiars.

I will not be partaking myself because I am a chicken and love my account but watching the alt Jobforusin emerald ocean win multiple familiers she then gives to her main, as she has non on her, its quite obvious she has multiple accounts in the familiar tournies (assumingly using bots like dreaming of sprinkles)

I went to the OM to throw a complain and after watching her still online on dock trade (should a screen-shotted mains >.< next time for sure) i sent another complain to Galene a little upset and here is what conspired...

so it's liek speeding they won't always catch you but if you get 1-2 familiers stop pressing your luck... now your a millionaire xD




[Sep 13, 2012 1:11:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jazzamazzed

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jan 15, 2011
Posts: 141
Status: Offline
Re: Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

Gotta get those pixels right?
[Sep 13, 2012 1:23:19 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
randomact

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jan 18, 2009
Posts: 2163
Status: Offline
Re: Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

I'm going to assume you're one of those people that think they're better than they really are at SF and think everyone mods against them.
----------------------------------------
Loathe/Forever.

Cremate tells ye, "i think i just broke my hymen"
[Sep 13, 2012 1:25:22 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Oliza

Member's Avatar


Joined: Aug 11, 2009
Posts: 30
Status: Offline
Re: Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

I don't see how this is an issue?
Unless there is a bot which plays better then any player?

This is such a stupid issue, having more accounts in the same tourny doesn't change the amount of skill it takes to win.
----------------------------------------
aeiou
[Sep 13, 2012 3:27:33 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
OtherJenny

Member's Avatar


Joined: Sep 1, 2008
Posts: 1078
Status: Offline
Re: Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
I don't see how this is an issue?
Unless there is a bot which plays better then any player?

This is such a stupid issue, having more accounts in the same tourny doesn't change the amount of skill it takes to win.


ummm well back in the day we could enter our alt/s to make sure we had a player in the big Skelly Fights. This has now been stoped.

But I suppose if you split your IPS line & play a few laptops at the same time.... then look to see which player your alts are playing you, would be able to pick who you realy play.

I must say on this , that I have noticed of late in Tournys that I have entered with absolute no chance of winning , I have been getting to the 2end 3erd rounds as the other (maybe) split pirate is playing on another.

Meaning they are just not there or straightlining.
----------------------------------------
UK based so on GMT Time, but Happy to log on @ Silly O Clock for Trades.
Happy to FREE chart Polite Pirates
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by OtherJenny at Sep 13, 2012 7:29:31 AM]
[Sep 13, 2012 7:27:07 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tanonev

Member's Avatar


Joined: Nov 18, 2006
Posts: 2361
Status: Offline
Re: Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
I don't see how this is an issue?
Unless there is a bot which plays better then any player?

This is such a stupid issue, having more accounts in the same tourny doesn't change the amount of skill it takes to win.


A bit of advice: Assuming that something is stupid simply because you can't understand it is a poor way to go through life.

Let's look at a simple example: Suppose we have two players, Player A and Player B, and a single elimination tournament (seeding doesn't matter for this example).

A ---+
|
+ ?
|
B ---+

Case 1: Player A and Player B each enter a single pirate. The tournament consists of 1 match, and whoever wins that match wins the tournament.

A ---+
|
+ A ---+
| |
A ---+ |
+ ?
A ---+ |
| |
+ ? ---+
|
B ---+

Case 2: Player A enters 3 pirates, while Player B enters a single pirate. The tournament looks like the structure above. If A wins against B in the first round, A wins the tournament; if A loses against B in the first round, A gets a second chance against B and can still win the tournament by winning the second round. This gets worse the more times A enters; in general, if A enters 2^k - 1 times, A merely needs to win 1 out of k matches against B to win the tournament, whereas B needs to win all k matches against A to win the tournament.

The effects aren't as easy to calculate in a tournament with multiple people, but it should be clear that entering multiple times gives you "second chances" that other players do not benefit from, which allows you to progress farther in the tournament than your skill normally would.
----------------------------------------
Tanonev on all oceans; currently exploring Meridian.
Puppetar by Tilinka
[Sep 13, 2012 12:28:52 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.alpha-slash.com [Link]  Go to top 
Armitron23

Member's Avatar


Joined: Feb 2, 2008
Posts: 332
Status: Offline
Re: Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

Did you get Galene's permission to post those logs with her name there? That's against the TOS if not.....
----------------------------------------
Yankeejr of Cerulean Ocean
[Sep 13, 2012 1:39:29 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Abandonment

Member's Avatar


Joined: Sep 2, 2007
Posts: 3884
Status: Offline
Re: Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
Did you get Galene's permission to post those logs with her name there? That's against the TOS if not.....



Really Yankee? Which clause exactly is it violating?
----------------------------------------
Priapus/Guantanamo
[Sep 13, 2012 4:09:54 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Abandonment

Member's Avatar


Joined: Sep 2, 2007
Posts: 3884
Status: Offline
Re: Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

Double post to respond to the thread:

As Galene pointed out to you, OP, it's all very well throwing around accusations but unless you have proof of any of it, nothing can be done. If you believe somebody to be cheating in some way, submit a complaint via /complain or Ye>Help>Complain. Don't start mouthing off accusing people in public, ou wind up looking like a clown and get nowhere.
----------------------------------------
Priapus/Guantanamo
[Sep 13, 2012 4:21:26 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Oliza

Member's Avatar


Joined: Aug 11, 2009
Posts: 30
Status: Offline
Re: Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 


A bit of advice: Assuming that something is stupid simply because you can't understand it is a poor way to go through life.

Let's look at a simple example: Suppose we have two players, Player A and Player B, and a single elimination tournament (seeding doesn't matter for this example).

A ---+
|
+ ?
|
B ---+

Case 1: Player A and Player B each enter a single pirate. The tournament consists of 1 match, and whoever wins that match wins the tournament.

A ---+
|
+ A ---+
| |
A ---+ |
+ ?
A ---+ |
| |
+ ? ---+
|
B ---+

Case 2: Player A enters 3 pirates, while Player B enters a single pirate. The tournament looks like the structure above. If A wins against B in the first round, A wins the tournament; if A loses against B in the first round, A gets a second chance against B and can still win the tournament by winning the second round. This gets worse the more times A enters; in general, if A enters 2^k - 1 times, A merely needs to win 1 out of k matches against B to win the tournament, whereas B needs to win all k matches against A to win the tournament.

The effects aren't as easy to calculate in a tournament with multiple people, but it should be clear that entering multiple times gives you "second chances" that other players do not benefit from, which allows you to progress farther in the tournament than your skill normally would.


It does give you "second chances" but as soon as you get to the third or fourth bracket you will no longer have these chances, and better players will beat you.

The issue is stupid, because in reality, this only affects people who can't get into the higher rounds in a tournament.

For example Player A is really scuppering good.
Player B loses both the games he has his alts in and is eliminated.
If you are better then a player, you will win, alts do not change that.

I honestly can not see how this would ever affect a player who joins a tourny to win the familiar. Willing to change my mind, if evidence is actually shown though
----------------------------------------
aeiou
[Sep 14, 2012 12:43:49 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Abandonment

Member's Avatar


Joined: Sep 2, 2007
Posts: 3884
Status: Offline
Re: Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

Ultimately, the skill of the player, regardless of how many alts they have is still the deciding factor in whether they win the top prize. Even in a case as extreme as making the final simply by playing against their own alts.
----------------------------------------
Priapus/Guantanamo
[Sep 14, 2012 3:13:45 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jackingg

Member's Avatar


Joined: Aug 22, 2009
Posts: 1820
Status: Offline
Re: Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

In regards to Drinking and SF tournies, I'm gonna get flamed for saying this but there is a luck factor that weighs heavier than one wants to admit. A bad run of mugs in Drinking can take you 1000 points under in some extreme cases, and often 500 or so. A sf where breakers are unfavourable to your pattern (See: bad saber, scimi and SD players droughting others) is also an example.

Sure, you can luck once, you can luck twice, but eventually skill will win out, as luck is whimsy and plays both sides of the tennis court. But having all those extra chances on alts? It's a creepy thought. Put an Old Horn and an Old Saber on each one of them, no cost involved for buying lives.

It's not a concept I'm comfortable with in the slightest.

Oops, typos.
----------------------------------------
Ivytheblade

Not intended for those with weak constitutions

Now officially dating half your Parley Trolls.
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by Jackingg at Sep 14, 2012 4:09:06 AM]
[Sep 14, 2012 4:05:53 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tanonev

Member's Avatar


Joined: Nov 18, 2006
Posts: 2361
Status: Offline
Re: Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
Ultimately, the skill of the player, regardless of how many alts they have is still the deciding factor in whether they win the top prize. Even in a case as extreme as making the final simply by playing against their own alts.


OK, clearly I'm missing something about high-level swordfighting, because everybody seems to be taking it as a given that High-Level SFer A is "better than" High-Level SFer B, then A will win 100% of matches against B. (In which case I am forced to ask why anyone would bother asking for a rematch.) The thing is, unless "better" players ALWAYS have a 100% win rate against "worse" players (which you WILL need to provide evidence for, since that is an outlandish claim), entering in multiple times will give you an unfair advantage.

Let's look at Case 2 again (Player A enters 3 times, Player B enters once).
Suppose Player A and Player B are of equal skill, so they each have a 50% chance of winning. Player A needs to win 1 of 2 matches to win (i.e., on two coinflips, at least one has to come up heads), whereas B needs to win both matches to win (both need to come up tails). This gives Player A a 75% chance of winning the tournament.
Now suppose Player A is slightly worse than Player B, namely, Player A has 40% chance of winning any given match, while Player B has a 60% chance of winning. Running the numbers again, we see that if Player A enters 3 times and Player B enters only once, then Player A actually has a 64% chance of winning the tournament. That's right, the worse player is actually favored to win the tournament due to multiple entries.

And naturally, things get worse the more entries Player A makes. For example, if Player A enters 127 times, he can have merely a 10% chance of beating Player B and still be expected to win the tournament (52% chance).

EDIT to add: Even if your assertion that "top prize" is safe from manipulation were true, it is by no means reason to dismiss the concern. Tournaments have far more than the winner enter the tournament, and an unfair experience for an honest player who isn't the top prize winner is still an unfair experience for an honest player.
----------------------------------------
Tanonev on all oceans; currently exploring Meridian.
Puppetar by Tilinka
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by tanonev at Sep 14, 2012 12:42:48 PM]
[Sep 14, 2012 12:35:29 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.alpha-slash.com [Link]  Go to top 
Notsizzly

Member's Avatar


Joined: Mar 29, 2010
Posts: 2937
Status: Offline
Re: Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

The principle of fair fights is what's the issue, no matter how bad that player who enters from multiple accounts, is - but I think I'm repeating Tanonev's words here. Take it as agreeing with him.

I'm going to make the following comparison, so sue me if you don't like it but: even if a bot is not ever capable of doing the puzzle at a level a good human being is, it does not take away from the issue. The bot is still making the puzzling curve wrong when it should be about the human players, and if the bot wins something in a puzzle competition, it's away from the legitimate human players.
OP issue is still away from everyone else. That's just the one aspect of it, there's plenty of others.

How to prove a case like that, idk - and it's not like it's making my current gameplay worse, but then again, I guess I've got as much right as anyone else to complain. Which I do. But meh.
----------------------------------------
~ Sizzly of Emerald ~
Avatar by Aerecura <3
[Sep 14, 2012 12:58:40 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Abandonment

Member's Avatar


Joined: Sep 2, 2007
Posts: 3884
Status: Offline
Re: Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

I take the point that sword fighting isn't entirely determined by a player's skill. My problem with the concern of this thread is that any prize worth competing for would take a staggering number of alts to propel a player anywhere close to where they could win by luck alone. Firstly I'm not sure it's entirely viable on most average user's PCs and secondly, any player that had a real shot of winning a final would be able to get there in the first place by just playing.

The issue of botting should be for a separate thread. One exists, and it has the capability to be incredibly damaging. The downside to it, is that it's incredibly easy to spot for anyone who knows roughly what they're doing with the puzzle.
----------------------------------------
Priapus/Guantanamo
[Sep 14, 2012 1:17:13 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tanonev

Member's Avatar


Joined: Nov 18, 2006
Posts: 2361
Status: Offline
Re: Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
My problem with the concern of this thread is that any prize worth competing for would take a staggering number of alts to propel a player anywhere close to where they could win by luck alone. Firstly I'm not sure it's entirely viable on most average user's PCs and secondly, any player that had a real shot of winning a final would be able to get there in the first place by just playing.


Does it take an unreasonable number of alts to give, say, me, a shot at winning the tournament? Sure. Would me entering 2 or 3 or 5 times have any noticeable effect on the final standings? Probably not. But what about you, or some other high-level swordfighter? Are 2 or 3 extra entries enough to push someone at your skill level over the threshold, from 49% to 51%? Suppose taking steroids has the (simplified) overall effect of shaving 0.02 second off of your 100m dash time. Would it allow someone like me to make it into the Olympics? Of course not. Would anyone who had a shot at Olympic gold with that boost still have had that shot without it? Of course. Is taking that boost still cheating, and does it still undermine the integrity of the competition? Of course.

Also, even if this holds for "any prize worth competing for" in PoE, what about the other goals that lesser players have? I sometimes join these tournaments because I want to see where I stand, and making it into, say, the top 32 would be a personal achievement. But if many of the better swordfighters enter in multiple times, I'd get eliminated far earlier than I would had everyone entered once, as they're supposed to. Is me being denied my personal achievement "not a big deal" because I'm not a top player? (Hint: How many "top players" are there? How many "not top players" are there?)
----------------------------------------
Tanonev on all oceans; currently exploring Meridian.
Puppetar by Tilinka
[Sep 14, 2012 1:36:38 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.alpha-slash.com [Link]  Go to top 
bronzebeard

Member's Avatar


Joined: May 5, 2004
Posts: 2373
Status: Offline
Re: Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

If a familiar tournament had so few players to be significantly manipulated by one mate's alts, then the ocean must be so empty that the familiar be worthless.
----------------------------------------
Peglegpaul
Now on Obsidian!
[Sep 14, 2012 1:38:08 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Notsizzly

Member's Avatar


Joined: Mar 29, 2010
Posts: 2937
Status: Offline
Re: Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

Yeah, it's more than unlikely that you'd actually win the top prize fam with just using this method but like said, it doesn't mean anyone should ignore the issue. But then again, average player can't do anything else than /complain the player he thinks is breaking the rules and as we've seen, Three Rings doesn't exactly talk about their anti-cheating mechanics neither allows the discussions on the forums go very far.

Botting has been talked about over and over again, I personally was making just a comparison because it felt easier to point out what I mean by doing that. One more note on the botting, it is easy to spot but it isn't like the average player really comes to the forums - they just, well, play. Occasional one reads the bazaar, rest of the forumgoers is just more or less the experienced players. I assume.
----------------------------------------
~ Sizzly of Emerald ~
Avatar by Aerecura <3
[Sep 14, 2012 1:39:16 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Abandonment

Member's Avatar


Joined: Sep 2, 2007
Posts: 3884
Status: Offline
Re: Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

I'm not by any means condoning the action. It's not something I have done, nor would do. I would also report anyone doing it. I just feel the way that the OP handled what he believed to be cheating was entirely wrong. He has little to no evidence of such an event occurring, and yet, he is quite happy to defame another player.

I'm not entirely sure just how common it is for players to enter multiple pirates into tournaments. It's not something I can recall ever coming across in sword fighting. I'd question whether it is really an issue that needs to be debated in the first place.
----------------------------------------
Priapus/Guantanamo
[Sep 14, 2012 1:51:31 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Notsizzly

Member's Avatar


Joined: Mar 29, 2010
Posts: 2937
Status: Offline
Re: Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
I'm not by any means condoning the action. It's not something I have done, nor would do. I would also report anyone doing it. I just feel the way that the OP handled what he believed to be cheating was entirely wrong. He has little to no evidence of such an event occurring, and yet, he is quite happy to defame another player.

I agree that the OP didn't handle it very well, even though he was frustrated. These cases should always be just /complained and then hope that Three Rings is aware and either has or is developing something for it.

I'm not entirely sure just how common it is for players to enter multiple pirates into tournaments. It's not something I can recall ever coming across in sword fighting. I'd question whether it is really an issue that needs to be debated in the first place.

Even if it isn't or wouldn't be common, now that the issue has been announced, there will be always some people who'll go and do it. I mean, if you're a kind of a person who wants to do it this way, then it's quite likely you'll grab on all the ideas you stumble upon - therefore I think it's good to acknowledge the problem. To actually debate over it, is probably worthless but it also brings up new point of views we may have overlooked so in general, I think it's worth it.

----------------------------------------
~ Sizzly of Emerald ~
Avatar by Aerecura <3
[Sep 14, 2012 2:02:51 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
BobJanova

Member's Avatar


Joined: Oct 16, 2007
Posts: 5008
Status: Offline
Re: Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

In any reasonable sized tournament, most of your alts are going to be out in the first round (since you can't play all of them), so you won't get much advantage. If you're botting then that's a separate issue and obviously that should be reported and banned.
----------------------------------------
Bobjanova on Viridian and Malachite
Shops and stalls with fair and profitable wages for all: Jubilee, Napi, Chelydra
Stripped/Barely Dressed (Malachite)
Phantasm/Reign of Chaos (Viridian)
[Sep 15, 2012 1:53:32 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Voidrix00

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jan 10, 2007
Posts: 386
Status: Offline
Re: Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
In any reasonable sized tournament, most of your alts are going to be out in the first round (since you can't play all of them), so you won't get much advantage. If you're botting then that's a separate issue and obviously that should be reported and banned.


Take past drinking tournement settings into account, 2500+(or even all stained), 5-6colors, tankards/nomug etc. They can be slow played and won by some very small things due to the length of the game(like someone said earlier, color/shape droughts, or small missplays). Add the fact that is it played slower, then all the alts won't "go out in round1".

Using that plus the statistics thrown out earlier, if the tournement allows for it with settings it's exploitable by good players/programmers who can add multiple chances into winning the tournement, regardless of how many others entered. I believe that's the point the OP is making.

This also could be used to a lesser extent in sword fighting/rumble but very exploitable in both drinking and treasure drop. But the fact it's not against the rules, like the OP brought up ... "Familiars for programmers".
----------------------------------------
Voidrix (All oceans)
Captain of Unquenchable Fury and Prince of Universe A .
Owns the largest collection of Guys on Cerulean.
[Sep 15, 2012 5:11:22 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
plopgeit

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jun 9, 2007
Posts: 326
Status: Offline
Re: Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
This also could be used to a lesser extent in sword fighting/rumble but very exploitable in both drinking and treasure drop. But the fact it's not against the rules, like the OP brought up ... "Familiars for programmers".

I'm speaking on my own discretion here and not OOO', but I think the last sentence of your post is incorrect. Using multiple alts in one tournament to gain an advantage (which it, as you and others have pointed out, indeed does) can be considered alt abuse and is forbidden under section 6.14 of the ToS which states you will not engage in any behaviour against the game spirit such as using multiple alts to manipulate the game environment. Whether you get caught or not is irrelevant for the fact whether or not it is against the rules.
On a side note: I'm not convinced this is a large issue (yet?). This might be because I'm not a fan of the carousing puzzles and therefor never participate in such tournaments, but judging from the other posts in this thread no real suspicion* or evidence has been raised of anything like this occurring.
*I realize the OP raises a suspicion against a pirate, but the fact that pirate wins multiple familiars and doesn't have any familiars on his pirate page or perched can be explained in so many other ways and does not indicate in any way multiple alts were used to obtain the familiars.
----------------------------------------
Enteraname of Sage.
Senior Officer of Poseidon's Tricorne.
Avatar made by Cattrin.
Now available in recorded version.
----------------------------------------
[Edit 2 times, last edit by plopgeit at Sep 16, 2012 4:32:43 AM]
[Sep 16, 2012 4:30:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
DeepNine

Member's Avatar


Joined: May 31, 2009
Posts: 564
Status: Offline
Re: Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
If a familiar tournament had so few players to be significantly manipulated by one mate's alts, then the ocean must be so empty that the familiar be worthless.

Several years ago, before multiclienting in the same tournament was banned, it was common practice for the strongest players to enter multiple times. Very often they would lose early on on one account but go on to win on another. The effect wasn't as pronounced in puzzles like swordfighting than for, say, nonturbo holes treasure drop or drinking (in which adding clients had a near-linear effect on increasing your winning chances), but even in SFing it was possible to enter multiple times, pick the softer half or quarter of the bracket, and gain a small advantage.

Was multiclienting in the same tournament a bigger factor on who won than skill? Of course not. But I know people who would have won quite a few less familiars on Viridian during that time period if it was banned.

Of course, the upshot of the ban was that people now multiclient on different oceans, which is even worse, but what can you do.
----------------------------------------
Nine of Tyr's Own
Currently on loan to: Dies Irae
[Oct 22, 2012 5:16:12 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
henryrules10

Member's Avatar


Joined: Dec 22, 2006
Posts: 1455
Status: Offline
Re: Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
Of course, the upshot of the ban was that people now multiclient on different oceans, which is even worse, but what can you do.


Can I buy some pot from you?

How is multi-oceaning worse than entering multiple times in the same ocean? You only have one chance per tournament, same as everyone else. I think that if you can multi-ocean tournaments well then more power to you, since it's much harder than focusing on one ocean at a time.
----------------------------------------
Nickbush on every ocean (Jadebush on Jade -.-)

Native Cobaltean for life

http://www.youtube.com/user/NickBush24

Avatar by Darkfaery

Foraging scoring glitch: http://bit.ly/QEpApx
[Oct 23, 2012 9:54:49 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
warp11

Member's Avatar


Joined: Nov 21, 2007
Posts: 2837
Status: Offline
Re: Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

Since nobody has asked yet, dear Tanonev could you please share the function you used to calculate the percentage chance a cheater had to actually win. It's not that I don't believe you, I just like sources (and math).

@Bobjanova, seeing how only say, the first 2 rounds are more or less simultanous, assuming someone would be able to get a couple of alts past that, they could probably play each account one by one for the remaining rounds. Although I'm sure the exact math for that is a part of Tanonev's function (he usually gets the figures right). From the petty calculations I've made, a player would get 3% of his alts into the third round, if 50% of all the players in the tourney consists of his alts (hello Cerulean), and if we assume he plays none of them thus straightlining and losing everytime he isn't playing his own alt.

This means that he needs to enter 100 clients in order to get 3 of them past the second round (assuming there are 100 other participants signed up which oughta be very possible on say Emerald). Now having a computer that manages to handle that many clients at the same time is quite the achievement itself, but let's say our favorite villain is rolling with 5 computers that handles 20 clients each instead. This means that this guy does not only have to create 100 accounts, but he also needs to keep track of which 3 actually made it through. That itself, has to be a challenge.

And then we haven't even begun to ponder upon the following rounds, since most familiar tournaments go waaaaay past 3 rounds.

Therefore, based on this somewhat flawed math (have not taken bye's in account) I'd like to say that it's possible to cheat yourself a familiar using this method, but very, very improbable (at least on a real ocean where aforementioned familiar actually would be worth something).
----------------------------------------
Dahl "I have higher moral standards" gren
[Oct 23, 2012 1:09:41 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tanonev

Member's Avatar


Joined: Nov 18, 2006
Posts: 2361
Status: Offline
Re: Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
From the petty calculations I've made, a player would get 3% of his alts into the third round, if 50% of all the players in the tourney consists of his alts (hello Cerulean), and if we assume he plays none of them thus straightlining and losing everytime he isn't playing his own alt.


Yes, from this point of view, it looks like there isn't much benefit. However, this isn't the main benefit of flooding a tournament with alts; remember, it's about second chances against your biggest competition. Again, suppose you're one of the best players, and you know who your biggest competition is. If you comprise half the entrants, for any given major competitor, you have a 50% chance of being matched against that competitor in the first round. If you're evenly matched, that means you have a 25% chance of knocking out that competitor right then and there. But here's the kicker: if you win, you can continue on that alt as though you had only entered once, except that competitor is out of the game; if you lose, you can continue on a different alt without issue. That means your competitor suffers from a 25% chance of getting eliminated in the first round, while you have a 0% (well, close to it; you get to advance as long as two of your alts get matched to each other in the first round) chance of getting eliminated. Note that if you account for half the entrants, you've effectively inserted one additional round into the tournament, which means after this extra round, you can play this as a regular tournament, except you had a 25% shot of excluding a competitor of your choice from the tournament altogether. Also note that if you attack the tournament solely with the intent of getting a first-round elimination of said competitor, you can turn off all except 3 of your clients the moment the tournament itself begins (the one playing the competitor, and the two matched to each other--you need to keep both open so you can drag the fight out).

And that's targeting a single specific competitor. If you know there are several big competitors who are all evenly matched with you, and you just want to eliminate any one of them, you've got close to a 50% chance of knocking any one of them out. And that's without having to keep more than 3 clients open during the tournament itself, and only having to play one client at a time. That is a sizable advantage.

 
Since nobody has asked yet, dear Tanonev could you please share the function you used to calculate the percentage chance a cheater had to actually win. It's not that I don't believe you, I just like sources (and math).


Player A = cheater, enters 2^k - 1 times
Player B = honest player
no other entrants
p = probability that A beats B (so 1 - p = probability that B beats A)
B wins the tournament if and only if B beats A k times in a row. This happens with probability (1 - p) ^ k. A wins the tournament otherwise; this happens with probability 1 - (1 - p) ^ k.

Clearly this is an unrealistic scenario, but it's easy to run the numbers on.

The takeaway point from all of this: There is a concrete benefit to entering a tournament multiple times. Exactly what number it comes out to be is difficult to measure and may very well be small in practice, but that doesn't change the fact that you can get an unfair advantage over your competition in this manner.
----------------------------------------
Tanonev on all oceans; currently exploring Meridian.
Puppetar by Tilinka
[Oct 24, 2012 10:31:23 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.alpha-slash.com [Link]  Go to top 
Stephensam

Member's Avatar


Joined: Aug 20, 2005
Posts: 4085
Status: Offline
Re: Familiars for programmers Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

I think what we all learn from this is that puzzle competitions are the purest form of competitive play and should be given all the familiars. Distilling specifically.
----------------------------------------
Stevensam -Cobalt Native, founder and host of The PoE is Right. Creator of Lime Day.
[Nov 6, 2012 12:06:16 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Stevensam [Link]  Go to top 
[Show Printable Version of Thread] [Post new Thread]

Puzzle Pirates™ © 2001-2016 Grey Havens, LLC All Rights Reserved.   Terms · Privacy · Affiliates