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Aenor

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Incred/Ult Patching Reply to this Post
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In case it's important, I play on Meridian.

I am currently Legendary at patching, but I appear to be stuck there and am not making any progress to become Ultimate. Furthermore, I have yet to even get the Incredible Patcher trophy. This seems odd to me. If I'm good enough to be among the top 5% in the ocean, then purely by random luck I ought to have obtained at least one duty report performance in the top 1%, but I have yet to do better than Excellent.

Is there something about the high end of the scoring curve that I miss? My current style of play is to first tie off all the ends, then add as many grommets as possible while time permits. I'f I've connected all the grommets and time permits, I'll then expand to use as many squares as possible. I do it this way because it seems to me that the bonus for using a lot of grommets is more than the bonus for using more squares.

No matter how high-scoring a board I clear, however, by the time I get around to clearing the next board, I've lost my sparkle.

This leads me to believe there's a big bonus for speed at the highest end of the scoring curve. To get increds, should I be clicking on the spool as soon as I've tied off all the ends once I get the indicator sparkling?
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Mat on the Meridian Ocean

Thank you to everyone who loves Blacksmithing!
[Aug 30, 2012 2:26:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ikketje

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Speed. Matters. A lot !

Good luck.
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Ikke on Meridian and Emerald
Veerle on Cerulean

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[Aug 30, 2012 2:38:22 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Aenor

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So I should focus more on speed than on the number of grommets?
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Mat on the Meridian Ocean

Thank you to everyone who loves Blacksmithing!
[Aug 30, 2012 2:45:51 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ikketje

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So I should focus more on speed than on the number of grommets?

You should focus on everything AND do it faster :)
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Ikke on Meridian and Emerald
Veerle on Cerulean

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[Aug 30, 2012 3:59:24 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Meridien

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So I should focus more on speed than on the number of grommets?

It would be disappointing if this were the case. This is supposed to be a puzzle game and not an arcade game.
I realise that balancing results and speed is important in a number of the puzzles (with the exceptions of gunning on one hand, and weaving/alchemy/blacksmithing on the other) but I would like to think that "solving" each board in a more ideal way should trump speed in the scoring stakes.

Erudite on Meridian
[Aug 30, 2012 4:07:01 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ikketje

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So I should focus more on speed than on the number of grommets?

It would be disappointing if this were the case. This is supposed to be a puzzle game and not an arcade game.
I realise that balancing results and speed is important in a number of the puzzles (with the exceptions of gunning on one hand, and weaving/alchemy/blacksmithing on the other) but I would like to think that "solving" each board in a more ideal way should trump speed in the scoring stakes.

Erudite on Meridian

Solving a board and being very fast are not mutually exclusive.
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Ikke on Meridian and Emerald
Veerle on Cerulean

~Avatar by Velternal
[Aug 30, 2012 4:46:22 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Hurtboss4

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From what I've seen and puzzled against on my alt army, I've patched against Nickbush, Ikke and others, and I got to say, I'm pretty disappointed. Speed patching trumps maximizing board efficiency if you're not extremely lucky, which I don't *feel* is the way the puzzle was meant to be played.

I even opened a Petition a while ago, and since it fits, I guess I'll just glue it here rather than opening a new thread...

I know you have a very strict policy about not disclosing scoring/numeral information about any given puzzle, but I have to wonder, is Patching supposed to reward what is, in my view, worse puzzling to give better scores?

For instance, I use a Patching style that seeks to utilize the board to its fullest extent, aiming at never less than a Flawless Masterpiece, with a Vegas+ combo every time. Of course, I don't always hit my goal, but I always do Masterpiece+.

I noticed a few people scoring better in the Duty Reports than me, that simply do A fine patch / Sew Good / and even Patchy work to simply get around boards faster, and do more than I can. This scores them higher.

I don't think this is how the puzzle was intended, one is supposed to be rewarded for their board management, moreso than doing straight connections from the spool to the tie-off, put in 2 grommets and call it a board, right?

I think the scoring needs to be boosted for those who actually go the length of utilizing the full board and playing the puzzle as intended.

Should I /bug this, too, or should I post in Game Design, maybe hoping to catch Forculus' attention?


The answer I got was from Bia, saying I should post my thoughts in GD...

So, imo, something needs to be buffed for maximizing boards. If you do Sew Goods and do, hypothetically, 6 boards an hour, you shouldn't beat my 2 flawless masterpieces per hour. It just feels wrong.

And on the OP's topic, yeah, Inc patching is hard to hit still, it'll become a bit easier when the curve/hype settles down a bit more, but it won't become alot easier than it is now.

Edit: I just read this and I don't know what to think, but it could help you.

Edit: And another edit. I named Nick and Ikke but I don't want to say I'm better and I should score better...quite the opposite. They're both better than me, probably by far, but I can pretty easily tell they're doing speed boards by the # of tokens they get
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And, scene.
*lights out*
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Hurtboss4 at Aug 30, 2012 5:23:58 PM]
[Aug 30, 2012 5:20:32 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Meridien

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Re: Incred/Ult Patching Reply to this Post
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Solving a board and being very fast are not mutually exclusive.


No, and obviously those who can do both justly deserve to dominate the top of the rankings. What I'm questioning is the score weighting for the great majority of us who can't do both.
To echo the above post (good thoughts Hurtboss), should very fast 'patchy' boards score better than slower masterpieces in a game that is supposed to be about mental puzzling, not lightning fast reflexes and mouse control?
Scoring more for speed rather than quality seems to be particularly needless for patching because there is already a built-in time limit for boards. It is not as if you can spend all day on one (alchemy-style).

Just my 2poe

Erudite on Meridian
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Meridien at Aug 30, 2012 6:49:48 PM]
[Aug 30, 2012 6:46:10 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
DementedDuck

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Everything Hurtboss said x2. If you can't fill the board and be fast, just be fast.
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Evilduck/Superduck.
Emerald, Cerulean, and that other one.
Now in Obsidian flavour.

I record puzzles.
[Aug 31, 2012 3:34:32 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ikketje

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Hurtboss, no offense (and congrats on #1 !), but...

This discussion you started is so déjà-vu. We had it in the Ice-threads while testing was still going on, repeatedly. The last time that we expressed the same thoughts as you ("skill should be rewarded more than speed"), Forculus agreed and said he'd adjust the scoring. Then we got another patch, and a good day (or 2?) later we got the puzzle on production.

I've raged about this exact matter a few weeks ago too. But well, the puzzle is what it is now, and I learned to play my MPs and flawlesses way way faster because of it.
And I've heard from a heartie who only uses the speed-method that it's not as effective anymore as compared to the first week.

If everyone would start to play faster, and go for completion + speed, the method of just speeding will become less and less strong. I do believe in the future everyone will speed up and scoring will automatically shift towards higher rewards for clearing more completed boards. Right? I'm not good at analyzing stuff like this. Just my thoughts so far.
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Ikke on Meridian and Emerald
Veerle on Cerulean

~Avatar by Velternal
[Aug 31, 2012 4:31:00 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Hurtboss4

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I wasn't an avid patcher on Ice, so I didn't partake in the discussion, but it's nice to hear Forculus acknowledges the 'problem'.

Yeah, I agree with you that, hopefully, it'll level out eventually, I just thought I'd point this out and support it, not being aware that it had been talked about.
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And, scene.
*lights out*
[Aug 31, 2012 7:15:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
mrtwistar

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I'm the same way Hurtboss. I can't stand doing anything less than flawless -1 or 2 and it does suck the way it's scoring now. I can't even manage to get more than 10 tokens a dr because I have some insane OCD about filling the whole board. I would say I fill my board in half the time given atleast, but sad to say I've lost to sew good patchers. :x And on top of losing the incred they also have 2 rows and me with 2 tokens.
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[Aug 31, 2012 9:54:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
keviv

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So to get incred and ult patching, you need to clear a combo about every 13-18 seconds?
(I watched Nickbush's vid and got that number)

Is there any way to get it using the Kse/Hurtboss strategy?
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[Aug 31, 2012 8:39:41 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
mrtwistar

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I consecutively get increds, and high ones at that doing full board clears, but speed triumphs over efficiency it seems.
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[Sep 1, 2012 1:10:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Hurtboss4

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Yeah, getting Inc and Ult is definitely possible with the FMP method, I've no trouble doing Inc on CIs on Meridian when I'm not mass tokening, and as far as I can tell, the curve there is slightly higher than on Eme. Got Ult that way too
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And, scene.
*lights out*
[Sep 1, 2012 11:43:29 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
bailet

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If this is repeating all the current information, I apologize.

When patching came out, before it was released the scoring was "Weighed more to board usage" But if you watch any patching tokening videos, you can obviously see that that is not the case.

The problem I see is that the game does not average performance/board correctly.

It is the equivalent of massing singles and target platforms in sailing or continually clearing singles in bilge as opposed to a vegas or sea donkey, except in this instance it works.

So yesterday I was told a theory that more boards in a certain time period > multiple MP's in the same time.
There I tested it hyper ranking on a swabby with an alt. I cleared only sew goods and fine patches only ever hitting a bingo or triple. I got ultimate at neophyte.

Conclusion: I noticed a few things that differ. Since all puzzles work in a 3 minute time period, you have to consistently clear these boards VERY fast or what ends up happening is that if you make one large combo in the midst of them and the window cleans all the quick ones, it drops your meter straight to dark blue.

Speed clears offer quick sparkles, but not consistent.
Big clears offer consistent sparkle, but take longer to build up.(In theory).

Speed is needed. Period. The scoring is definitely broken. The question that remains is what scores high exactly? There could be a period in the first 3 minutes where all boards are added and you peak a high competition winning incredible, or it is just a sad illogical playing style that gives you ultimate.
----------------------------------------
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OM MESSAGE: Complaining the on-duty OM will only result in another flurry of eggs being sent out into the YPP world. Go #TeamPurple!
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[Sep 1, 2012 5:11:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Belthazar451

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So, does the speed-then-grommets-then-completeness strategy mean people aren't really trying for Flawless Masterpieces? I've been trying to figure out what the patching-equivalent for the grain bonus trophies might be (if they exist), and it kinda seems that Flawless Masterpieces are most likely.
[Sep 1, 2012 11:05:29 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Oliza

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It's the same mechanic as swordfighting.
Either pick speed, or efficiency, however as time progresses people will eventually find the balance between them, and they will be the best patchers.
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aeiou
[Sep 2, 2012 12:09:28 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Hurtboss4

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The only issue being Swordfight rewards efficiency. Patching doesn't as of now. This is also why everyone and their mother have Renowned+ and probably why the curve is so hard - Even doing bad, fast boards, you can get a good indicator and score well.

Think of it as doing 5 clears in Rigging consistently, with 1 tar / loop every, I don't know, 10 clears, and even then, you only loop 2 and clear 12. This is just as bad, lol
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And, scene.
*lights out*
[Sep 2, 2012 7:11:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
mrtwistar

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The only issue being Swordfight rewards efficiency. Patching doesn't as of now.



That's not quite accurate. Playing efficiently allows me to keep incred sustained much longer. It might not provide the higher scoring (yet?) but when it does I'm going to be glad to see the vast number of pure speed top 10 patchers go down. If you can token and score higher than me something's wrong :x.


Plus while I'm still getting incred, I'm not even focused on the puzzle. I usually hold a convo and browse youtube and facebook.
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Kse/Instrumental/Bromance/Sonicbang

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[Edit 1 times, last edit by mrtwistar at Sep 2, 2012 5:28:15 PM]
[Sep 2, 2012 5:26:24 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Hurtboss4

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Yeah, I do the same, but I said that in a more general fashion. It's not like doing like we do it won't take us anywhere xD
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And, scene.
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[Sep 2, 2012 6:52:56 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Xanther4

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All right, let's try to clear somethings up.

1. Speed patching is the way to go, as of right now. No questions asked.

2.
 
The only issue being Swordfight rewards efficiency. Patching doesn't as of now. This is also why everyone and their mother have Renowned+ and probably why the curve is so hard - Even doing bad, fast boards, you can get a good indicator and score well.
-Not true. Patching relies on efficiency. What is being neglected in this conversation is the understanding that obtaining Incredibles/Ultimate is about clearing boards fast AND being efficient. Sure, anyone can clear a board in under 5 seconds on a straight run, but if you can spend another 10 seconds obtaining a large percentage of your board, and a large amount of grommets, your score gets a boost, and it is noticable.

3. The "problem" as this thread defines it remains thus: The bonus for flawless masterpiece is not balanced with the bonus obtained with 'speed patching'. Unlike carpentry where you can work slow, maximize efficiency, obtain grain bonuses, and still get an incredible, patching tends to punish Flawless Masterpieces because they tend to take up more time and allow the indicator to relax.

4. A simple solution would be to start with your efficiency builds, then disperse shorter, faster builds in between. The efficiency builds would maximize the score ramp, while the shorter builds would help sustain it over a long period of time. This might actually work better then pure speed patching if you can work fast enough. I'm too set in my speedy ways, and I want my towers so I won't try it myself.... yet.

Just experiment. Find what works best for you.
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Wipley of Emerald
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[Sep 10, 2012 8:41:09 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Hurtboss4

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After the OP was answered, we weren't asking for advice, I think all of us discussing this are pretty much good patchers.

1) No questions asked is false. I've beaten people doing speed patching with my own method.

2) I probably wasn't clear there. What I meant was, the curve for being efficient isn't balanced, after a certain peak, which oughta be less than halfway through the board (pretty much after you include all of your grommets), the curve dies a slow, painful death, and you get to watch it burn.
I also implied everyone can get over Renowned by just doing slow bad boards if they include grommets, which is obviously bad.


3) ^

I don't know if it's the Flawless Masterpiece / Master Patcher curve that needs a boost, or if regular pieces have to boosted, or if grommets have to be toned down.
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[Sep 11, 2012 8:27:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
bailet

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Decrease grommets, increase individual piece worth. This kind of forces the need of close to full boarding.

Maybe someone should request it in game design for score changing if they haven't already.
----------------------------------------
Clotho tells ye, "did you hide the skellies this time?"
OM MESSAGE: Complaining the on-duty OM will only result in another flurry of eggs being sent out into the YPP world. Go #TeamPurple!
Dalnoth's Favorite Pirate
[Sep 12, 2012 5:01:57 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Aenor

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Yeah, I'd also like to see grommet value go down, since it's just luck as to how many you spawn on a given board. Also, it's not thematically obvious to me why a smaller patch would be better with a bunch of metal rivets in it.
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Mat on the Meridian Ocean

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[Sep 15, 2012 12:03:34 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Meridien

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Yeah, I'd also like to see grommet value go down, since it's just luck as to how many you spawn on a given board.

Not to mention from a puzzling point of view how trivially easy it is to create loose ends and close them with grommets - much more challenging (I feel) to incorporate branch pieces into an existing line such that they will "loop" back in.

Erudite on Meridian
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Bhadeti



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I enjoyed reading all of the posts here and I agree that the scoring is definitely not right for those that play the puzzle how we all believe it should be played. But I have some points I would list as to why I may agree with how they have it.

1. Speed is a factor which is opposite of carpentry, just as rigging is opposite of sails. Speed vs. Slow.

2. Tokening is the second factor I would like to list. Going for tokens in patching is only simple if you can complete a board without going for a perfect board due to the many different tokens on the board you must work around them in order to get the token. You may be able to achieve a masterpiece from time time with still getting a token, but certainly not a perfect board. I think this factor took a big part in how they judged scoring with speed.

3. As an above post listed, if you start of with a high scoring board, and just sustain it with some more simple boards, this would be a strategy in order to keep the scores going. So therefore it takes skill and some effort to really keep these scores going instead of taking your time getting it all done when you feel like it.

I personally enjoy patching, I can't say I am happy with the scoring. I have never achieved Incredible (Emerald) But I have achieved my Ultimate. I currently stand at Legendary and am not budging, don't plan to. I love tokening with patching and if the scoring is changed then that would certainly put me back onto the carpentry station for my tokening. Either way, I enjoy the puzzle and look forward to learning new methods and techniques to improving my score.
[Sep 20, 2012 7:42:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Plunderville

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I think speed being a big factor makes sense for the puzzle - there's a built-in countdown timer with the wind, so you know from the start that faster is better.

So tips for anyone looking for ult/increds, here's what made the biggest difference to my scores and brought me up from Leg: connect the Xes as fast as you can, and then add as many grommets as you have time for until the timer is _halfway_ done, and then submit the board. Most of the time this is a "Sew Good" and consistent sew goods with 3 or 4 grommets at half the timer gets you a high excellent or an incred, on Cerulean at least. Even a fine patch with a few grommets will give you quite a high score if you send it in early enough - when the timer is 1/4 to 1/3 of the way across the screen.

I'm guessing you could go for flawless masterpieces or master patcher and still get high scores if you worked very, very fast, but I know for me getting the extra board coverage beyond sew good takes a lot more thought - there are lots of ways to connect up and get a good, and fewer solutions for master patcher and up, so I waste a lot of time thinking about it and lost points on time. For me and I think most people, the best compromise of time vs. coverage is to go for good, most but not all grommets, and half timer or less.

I'm still not good at guessing when I'll get increds vs. excellents, but focusing on speed more than coverage brings incredibles more often. I think it's easier to get consistent high scores - which is what you need for an inc - doing speed patching. Flawless masterpieces done quickly can get you high scores, but it's dicier and hard to string them together rapidly.

A big advantage of speed patching is tokening - as the poster above notes, it's easier to get tokens on a board with less coverage, and the more boards you complete, the more chances to make tokens you have. So if you work on your speed above all else, you can find token environments improve your patching stat instead of trashing it.

My two cents, hope this is helpful to someone!

Plunderville on Cerulean
Who is back to leg patching, but still hugging her ult trophy. <3
[Sep 20, 2012 10:51:56 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Hurtboss4

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Maybe I'm just weird, I don't know lol, but here's how it works for me

I have this crazy idea of tallying everything I get on CI trips until I get at least one of each item. Don't ask.

I use this alt to CI with. I only Patch on CIs, and aim at tokens.

I hop betweeen arch Ult and full Ult quite constant. Actually, pretty much drop when we hit the CI LP, and go up when we go inside the island, for the most part. I do very, very fast boards, and more often than not get below Sew Good. I still manage to keep a sparkly indicator. 9 / 10 boards I get a token, only way I don't is if the board is absolutely impossible to token with, like, having a token around the spool and the path must go around it, or having two around a bunch of clustered tie-offs, etc.

Now, on HB, I patch fully. I very, very rarely do below Master Patcher, and I simply will not drop Inc like that after the first league, even if one of my boards gets timed out (It happens sometimes, but I mostly send it a little bit after half bar).

I've done Incredibles with tokens, but I find that it's just too much effort, so I don't do it. I either Token and aim lowly, or patch fully and get very high indicators, that's just how I like the puzzle. Not to say I can't, since I have on HB too, one some Haunted Seas trips, and that was kinda fun-ish, but it's too much focus, far beyond what I mean to put into this sort of puzzle lol.

My point being, I simply don't do half as good if I do Sew Goods with grommets as opposed to if I do my regular Patching. Am I weird? Is it just me? I know some people Patch like me, but those usually get off better scores with fast Goods. I don't know man, the world's wicked.
----------------------------------------
And, scene.
*lights out*
[Sep 20, 2012 11:02:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Bhadeti



Joined: Jan 13, 2008
Posts: 12
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Re: Incred/Ult Patching Reply to this Post
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I puzzle to token in Cursed Isles, Atlantis, and Haunted Seas as well, and that is my entire purpose really for going, gives me a reason to play the puzzle and give it a little something extra. But I have never received an incredible no matter which way I patch. I usually send in mine at half bar if i'm going Sew Good's with a token and at least 5-6 Grommets. If I am going for a Master Patches it takes me about 3/4 of the meter, and by my calculations as far as others have said they get their increds, I certainly should have gotten an incredible by now. But I guess my luck is just terrible when it comes to getting that Incredible trophy.

-Holds onto his Ulti Trophy with pride-
[Sep 20, 2012 6:49:42 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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