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SaviourS

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Question on game abuse Reply to this Post
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Let's say there's some said person, named X. Now X is a well skilled pirate, renowned on many oceans, however, 2 and a half years ago discovered a fault within the way multi comps work. X posted everything in the technical issues section, giving evidence towards it, all well and good. After doing so, X began to abuse it for at least a good 2 years, winning several familiars due to such a fault, and to this day nothing has changed. I petitioned, asked if I could do the same (so I can ask why X is still able to play), was told no (as it should be), yet X is still abusing it and winning it.

Am I alone in thinking that after several complaints and mountains of evidence against X, that s/he should be banned? This isn't a one off thing, this is 2 years of accumulation. I won't be discussing what the bug is, nor who X is.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by SaviourS at Jul 30, 2012 10:01:40 AM]
[Jul 30, 2012 10:00:38 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
superstarsam

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I would say the more important issue here isn't banning X but making both OMs and devs see reason. The OMs need to set the same rules for EVERYONE and then actually ENFORCE them. The devs need to do a better job at making sure there isn't such a gaping and exploitable hole in how competitions work.

(to clarify, I'm not X)
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Geologist - now exclusively Obsidian Emerald flavoured
[Jul 30, 2012 10:22:35 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Notsizzly

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If it's exploiting as Three Rings defines it, then yes of course? Or that's how I've understood it.

The other questions I'd have regarding of this case are i) why it hasn't been fixed if it has been proven, and ii) if pirate X has been complained over and over again (well, you'd need to have proof other than just seeing him winning and um..what else could that be but a /tell from him to you?) and all is as you lay it out, he is not banned? ...and I'd be pointing a finger at Three Rings, hoping for some kind of response.

My question to the community is this: does ANYONE at all, anymore, anywhere, any time, puzzle the normal old way? You know, you do the puzzle to the best of yours hoping it'll be enough - don't use the faults to your advantage, bug report any possible glitch you notice, and..sigh, those things.
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[Jul 30, 2012 10:29:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
SaviourS

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X has admitted it in game yes, and as I said made a thread pretty much proving of its existence. It can also easily be tested and proved should three rings require it, though I think they are aware of it.
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[Jul 30, 2012 10:32:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
henryrules10

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X has admitted it in game yes, and as I said made a thread pretty much proving of its existence. It can also easily be tested and proved should three rings require it, though I think they are aware of it.


Then why have they not done anything about it? Maybe this X was trying multiple times to bring it to attention, but due to either lack of dev priority or other players being too damn stupid to believe him/her, it hasn't been dealt with. Maybe by "abusing" the system enough times, it would eventually cause enough of a stink so that even the idiots who thought they knew how the system worked would be able to see what was going on.

But that's just my two pennies ^.^
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Nickbush on every ocean (Jadebush on Jade -.-)

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[Jul 30, 2012 10:52:39 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Notsizzly

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Then why have they not done anything about it? Maybe this X was trying multiple times to bring it to attention, but due to either lack of dev priority or other players being too damn stupid to believe him/her, it hasn't been dealt with. Maybe by "abusing" the system enough times, it would eventually cause enough of a stink so that even the idiots who thought they knew how the system worked would be able to see what was going on.


Well. It would most likely be because Three Rings hasn't fixed it, wouldn't it? Nice approach calling the other players 'too damn stupid' and 'idiots', though - players can't do more than /bug and /complain in-game and post their findings in the forums, now can they?

If pirate X would be the kind that is genuinely worried or interested in the best of the game and the gaming community, he wouldn't continue the said abuse if it was indeed exploiting.
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[Jul 30, 2012 11:01:58 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
henryrules10

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Then why have they not done anything about it? Maybe this X was trying multiple times to bring it to attention, but due to either lack of dev priority or other players being too damn stupid to believe him/her, it hasn't been dealt with. Maybe by "abusing" the system enough times, it would eventually cause enough of a stink so that even the idiots who thought they knew how the system worked would be able to see what was going on.


Well. It would most likely be because Three Rings hasn't fixed it, wouldn't it? Nice approach calling the other players 'too damn stupid' and 'idiots', though - players can't do more than /bug and /complain in-game and post their findings in the forums, now can they?

If pirate X would be the kind that is genuinely worried or interested in the best of the game and the gaming community, he wouldn't continue the said abuse if it was indeed exploiting.


Considering the fact that it was impossible for it to be fair without luck being involved, it was only a matter of time before someone found a way to exploit it. Should that person have kept quiet about it and let things stay the way they were? If X hadn't done it, someone else probably would've, and this thread would still be posted. It doesn't make it right, but sometimes you have to use drastic measures to get people's attention.

And if you read through this thread, you'll see why I used those words to describe certain posters.
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Nickbush on every ocean (Jadebush on Jade -.-)

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[Jul 30, 2012 11:21:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
randomact

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I'd like to know if player X ever brought this to the attention of the OOO staff through a more private manner. Did they ever explain to staff how the exploit worked and that they've used it on numerous occasions?
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[Jul 30, 2012 11:38:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
henryrules10

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I'd like to know if player X ever brought this to the attention of the OOO staff through a more private manner. Did they ever explain to staff how the exploit worked and that they've used it on numerous occasions?


Only the specifics of the exploit, through several PMs and petitions, but no action has been taken. I admit I could've done more, but I assumed the devs either knew about it and disregarded it, or maybe it wasn't broken after all. I sent Forculus a link to the Technical Issues thread earlier but have no and just received a response that Eightycats would be looking into it, literally as I was typing this >.>

Honestly, I want the exploit to be fixed. I'd still use alts, because it gets boring just entering competitions on one name, but I'd rank them up appropriately. I want the same thing you do, Saviour - i.e., fair competitions, but 1. You're acting like a barrelstopper, so quit it, and 2. I was on the other end of this glitch years ago, so it only makes sense to try to do what I can
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Foraging scoring glitch: http://bit.ly/QEpApx
[Jul 30, 2012 12:01:22 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
superstarsam

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I'm very pleased devs are looking into it. Perhaps (given that the original thread is sort of cluttered) all that people have deduced about this issue could be compiled somewhere to help them? *shrug*
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[Jul 30, 2012 12:30:41 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Notsizzly

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I'd like to know if player X ever brought this to the attention of the OOO staff through a more private manner. Did they ever explain to staff how the exploit worked and that they've used it on numerous occasions?


Only the specifics of the exploit, through several PMs and petitions, but no action has been taken. I admit I could've done more, but I assumed the devs either knew about it and disregarded it, or maybe it wasn't broken after all. I sent Forculus a link to the Technical Issues thread earlier but have no and just received a response that Eightycats would be looking into it, literally as I was typing this >.>

Honestly, I want the exploit to be fixed. I'd still use alts, because it gets boring just entering competitions on one name, but I'd rank them up appropriately. I want the same thing you do, Saviour - i.e., fair competitions, but 1. You're acting like a barrelstopper, so quit it, and 2. I was on the other end of this glitch years ago, so it only makes sense to try to do what I can


If it is a glitch indeed, wouldn't that make you...umm, guilty of exploiting what you, regardless of whether Three Rings knows about it or is fixing it, know is indeed unintended game mechanic allowing the game to favor you and let you gain an advantage?

This is not for me to judge, so don't get me wrong - I do not know Nickbush at all in-game. I have based my opinion of him based on his posts in the forums and have considered him quite reliable and honest player. I am not on a mission to attack him or to say he should be banned.
In the past, I believe (without exact details I can not say it is 100% true), we have heard stories of people getting banned because they found a glitch and then used it in a way that gave them something they weren't entitled to should the game have been working normally.

It probably is against ToS in general - would need to dig the text to find what parts apply.
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[Jul 30, 2012 1:13:23 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
SaviourS

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You mean to tell me after all your supposed PMs that they still allowed you to continue doing it? And you kept doing it in the name of helping the game? I find it somewhat hard to believe man. I don't mind losing at all, but losing to the likes of you annoys me, cause I don't know if I lose due to skill or due to you using this "technique".
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[Jul 30, 2012 2:23:17 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
harrjm

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I sent Forculus a link to the Technical Issues thread earlier but have no and just received a response that Eightycats would be looking into it, literally as I was typing this >.>

Honestly, I want the exploit to be fixed.

Will you continue to use the exploit until it's fixed? You say you want fair competition but when you are the only one that continues to use the exploit it's not fair to everyone else.
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[Jul 30, 2012 3:59:29 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LJAmethyst

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Is this going to spark some kind of war of alts named Aaaaaaaaaaaa, or do I misunderstand the nature of the exploit? Not that we're entitled to know the exploit, I would hope that any exposé is stamped out by Ringer intervention...
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Notsizzly

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It would be nice to know if there has been a glitch and if it has been fixed...you know, just because.

Would also be lovely to know if exploiting a glitch is a bannable offense.
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[Jul 31, 2012 7:27:57 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
riku743

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Apparently not.
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[Jul 31, 2012 7:32:07 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tanonev

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Well, there is precedence for breaking something until it's fixed. The Oceanmasters didn't seem to mind. But then again, the breaking was done with good nature (after all, Tilinka is awesome).
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Tanonev on all oceans; currently exploring Meridian.
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Lotsofgoats

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This is why you should make it public knowledge, because the only way to make it understood that things are broken is to really break the crap out of them.


It might muck up competitions for a while, but they'll get fixed.
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[Jul 31, 2012 9:55:09 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Notsizzly

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If I read Nickbush's posts right, the glitch has been there for a while. And remained unfixed.

There apparently was at least one other pirate who found out about this and used it to his advantage - said pirate has been banned already before the merge and to my knowledge, for other reasons. Nevertheless, he supposedly won those competitions on Sage apparently because of exploiting, rather than, well, skill.

...
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[Jul 31, 2012 10:15:38 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tachas1

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If I read Nickbush's posts right, the glitch has been there for a while. And remained unfixed.

There apparently was at least one other pirate who found out about this and used it to his advantage - said pirate has been banned already before the merge and to my knowledge, for other reasons. Nevertheless, he supposedly won those competitions on Sage apparently because of exploiting, rather than, well, skill.



See, this isn't accurate. It's not like this "exploit" requires no skill. Quite the opposite in fact. It's cool that you still talk about things you don't understand though, Sizzlepop. It's just like old times.

Goats, you say tell people how this works. Remember when a certain person told Novo how to Hyperrank, he released how to do it on the forums and now 2 years later scoring and ult lists are still screwed up, rendering trophies completely meaningless? Owing to not everyone reading obscure sections of the forums, telling people how to exploit competitions would be even more unfair and game breaking. You'd have 95% of competitors trying to win in the normal way and then the other 5% trying to exploit their way to victory, giving your average player no chance. At least at the moment only one or two people seem to be doing this, giving people the chance to still win some places. I don't think it'd level the playing field but would in fact break competitions even more.

I've actually reported some issues a couple of years ago and absolutely nothing has been done to fix them. I don't have much faith in them fixing things quickly. There are quite a number of gaping holes in scoring that can be used to game competitions. Luckily the 2 players who know about them no longer play.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by tachas1 at Aug 7, 2012 3:55:33 AM]
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Notsizzly

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See, this isn't accurate. It's not like this "exploit" requires no skill. Quite the opposite in fact. It's cool that you still talk about things you don't understand though, Sizzlepop. It's just like old times.


Oh the irony, oh the trolling, Gendrybilly.
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[Aug 7, 2012 11:31:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Snowpixie

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http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Release_2012-08-07

Forage next? :D
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henryrules10

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Changed Official:Puzzle_Competition tie-breaking for Incredible high scores.


I don't like the wording on this. Does this mean there's still a scoring cap? I'd hope not... -.-
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Nickbush on every ocean (Jadebush on Jade -.-)

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[Aug 7, 2012 2:41:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Changed Official:Puzzle_Competition tie-breaking for Incredible high scores.

I don't like the wording on this. Does this mean there's still a scoring cap? I'd hope not... -.-

You aren't the only one who thought that exact same thing.
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ikketje

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Changed Official:Puzzle_Competition tie-breaking for Incredible high scores.

I don't like the wording on this. Does this mean there's still a scoring cap? I'd hope not... -.-

You aren't the only one who thought that exact same thing.

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[Aug 7, 2012 3:23:38 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
superstarsam

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Same thoughts here. While it's great to have SOMETHING done, it would be amazing if some higher power were to poke their head in and alleviate our fears.
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Geologist - now exclusively Obsidian Emerald flavoured
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Prometheus
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Ahoy!

Just a brief note to expand a bit on this issue and how the recent release fits in. Yes, in certain circumstances competition scoring does require the use of a tie break. This will continue to be the case going forward. Without going into too much detail, making any changes there is not so cut and dry and would require not only a massive amount of developer time but also careful, prolonged and dedicated testing to ensure no detrimental or unforeseen issues crop up in the other parts of the game.

That is, of course, not to say the issue isn't going to be looked into further. The developers are aware of the matter and revisiting the tie break issue is definitely on The List. However, The List is a Mighty and Sprawling monster so we cannot provide any more information on when it will be addressed.

As to tonight's change - previously each duty report was a separate and unique entry in the competition. This still remains the case except in cases where there is a tie in the scoring. After tonight's release should a tie-break be required it will take a player's puzzling throughout the entire competition into consideration. This will ensure that first and foremost competitions will continue to be won or lost based on a player's performance.

- Pro
[Aug 7, 2012 6:09:13 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.puzzlepirates.com [Link]  Go to top 
henryrules10

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Ahoy!

Just a brief note to expand a bit on this issue and how the recent release fits in. Yes, in certain circumstances competition scoring does require the use of a tie break. This will continue to be the case going forward. Without going into too much detail, making any changes there is not so cut and dry and would require not only a massive amount of developer time but also careful, prolonged and dedicated testing to ensure no detrimental or unforeseen issues crop up in the other parts of the game.

That is, of course, not to say the issue isn't going to be looked into further. The developers are aware of the matter and revisiting the tie break issue is definitely on The List. However, The List is a Mighty and Sprawling monster so we cannot provide any more information on when it will be addressed.

As to tonight's change - previously each duty report was a separate and unique entry in the competition. This still remains the case except in cases where there is a tie in the scoring. After tonight's release should a tie-break be required it will take a player's puzzling throughout the entire competition into consideration. This will ensure that first and foremost competitions will continue to be won or lost based on a player's performance.

- Pro


I'm confused... how would there be a tie? Shouldn't cases like this be based on raw scores of duty reports? Since Graniou kept ahead of Roketqueen on each duty report, shouldn't that mean his raw scores were better than Roketqueen's and therefore Graniou should've been ahead in the standings?

Edit: I was also wondering about the scoring cap on duty puzzles - what is the deal with that? That's the real problem most of us are having - too many people are reaching the scoring cap in duty puzzles and therefore the tiebreaker has to be used. Is there still a scoring cap in this upcoming release?
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Nickbush on every ocean (Jadebush on Jade -.-)

Native Cobaltean for life

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Foraging scoring glitch: http://bit.ly/QEpApx
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by henryrules10 at Aug 7, 2012 6:41:13 PM]
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superstarsam

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As long as there's no arbitrary element to it, it's certainly much better. I'm looking forward to playing within this new system.
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Geologist - now exclusively Obsidian Emerald flavoured
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Perenoel1

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So does this mean that tie-breakers are done by the average of every duty report, so puzzling more can now actually hurt you? Or is it some kind of checking the 2nd and 3rd highest duty report of each tied pirate,until they aren't tied anymore, which would mean that more puzzling can only help.
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