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Fannon

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I have protected the Pet page in order to facilitate a discussion regarding the current reorganization. The wiki is a community-driven resource, and edit-wars and constant reversions are not considered productive. To join the discussion, please see the talk page. Once we have reached consensus as to the layout of the page, I will implement it, and then un-protect the page.

The current discussion is whether or not to keep the old format where the standard pets and LE pets are sorted separately, as in this revision: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/index.php?title=Pet&oldid=662198

The new layout, where the pets are all in one list and sorted by type is currently implemented on the page.

To give input into the new layout, please do so on the Talk:Pet page so that the discussion is all in one place. I am locking this thread to ensure that the discussion takes place in the correct place!

If you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to send myself or Clotho a PM.
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[Jul 13, 2012 7:10:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Fannon

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New proposal: moving the LE pet information to a separate page, which allows the pet page to be much more functional in terms of giving the basic pet info but also keeps a handy reference/check list for collectors out there that doesn't require them checking the individual pet pages. I've opened up this thread in case anyone wants to weigh in here, but I'd prefer if you'd give your opinion on the Talk:Pet page so that it's all in one place. Thanks!
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[Jul 15, 2012 4:47:22 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Notsizzly

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I am trying to keep my post as short as possible...

Clearly, the pet page as it is now, is not very eh, good. It is missing information, has some inconsistency and so on but concentrating in that right now is pointless as the page is about to change, I hope.

A simple list of all known pets, there's something neat and clear about it. But somehow, it seems a bit off considering quite a lot of the articles that currently are in YPP, have some images.

Pets grouped by type makes sense - but if they're all (available and LE ones) put into the same page, it'll become a massive article if all of the information is to be placed there (since the same issues as the pet page right now, are repeated).

This proposal that follows what Fannon has suggested is somewhat the best option at the moment. Needs some tweaking to keep consistency and some editing. And obviously, every individual pet type page needs the same (for example, there isn't a picture of a ghost puppy in the Small dog's page + the black small puppy is available from black boxes as well).

To list all the missing/false information is probably a task AFTER the new 'Pet' page has been decided and done, aye?

Edit: I may have an obsession over consistency but then again, YPPedia is wiki and consistency and clearness should be included and big measurements of itself... That being said, there's quite a bit of inconsistency with the pet pages at the moment. I just might maybe perhaps possibly write those down on the go <<...
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Notsizzly at Jul 22, 2012 3:29:34 AM]
[Jul 17, 2012 6:14:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Notsizzly

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I....am going to.....bump this thread a little bit. Watch out.

Seeing someone selling a 'rare black/black elephant' on Emerald reminded me about this whole The State of the Pet Page(s) situation. As you know, an elephant with black skin and black/black cloth can be found from black boxes. However, the elephant page is misleading at the moment, where one can understand that a completely black elephant was only available during Halloween 2008. In addition, it doesn't mention that you can find 'em elephants from the boxes. (It is another issue whether or not YPPedia should label any pets rare or not - if you ask me, no.)

There's more misinformation in several pages... Which reminds me that instead of listing and pointing out, I maybe should just fix these myself oO. Guess my concern is that if I do anything before discussing and getting confirmation on the forums, someone will rageflame and argue 'it isn't so'.

Edit: to add. On cat page, persimmon cat HAS been available since July 2009. It was a reward for purchasing dubs (probably subs too?) some time after Crimson closed on March 31, 2011 and before Nov 15, 2011. I have had this cat on former Sage so I know for sure. It wasn't straight away after Crimson closed but not too long as you can see from the later date there, which is when I posted a thread on Sage bazaar where I had that cat up for sale. Also, one was auctioned some time ago on Emerald bazaar.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Notsizzly at Jul 31, 2012 7:23:07 PM]
[Jul 24, 2012 11:58:19 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Franklincain

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Since I intend to leave those two sandboxes of mine (i.e.: this one and this other one) in place for the entire duration of this situation, I would be grateful for whatever feedback you wish to give me on any information that may be missing from these two proposals. ;-)

Thank you,
Franklin
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Franklin W. Cain (Pirate FranklinCain on Meridian and other Oceans)
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[Aug 3, 2012 9:07:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Franklincain

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Based on feedback received (thank you!), I've uploaded another variation. This version is just like what we've got uploaded for now (i.e. all pets listed, in one huge table), but with additional updates and minor cosmetic changes (to highlight the division between pet classes).

I'd really, REALLY like for us to be able to reach an actual consensus on this issue and get that page unlocked so that we can move forward. Please let me know what you think.

Thanks!
Franklin
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Franklin W. Cain (Pirate FranklinCain on Meridian and other Oceans)
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[Aug 14, 2012 9:47:10 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Notsizzly

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Based on feedback received (thank you!), I've uploaded another variation. This version is just like what we've got uploaded for now (i.e. all pets listed, in one huge table), but with additional updates and minor cosmetic changes (to highlight the division between pet classes).

I'd really, REALLY like for us to be able to reach an actual consensus on this issue and get that page unlocked so that we can move forward. Please let me know what you think.

Thanks!
Franklin


Taking a quick look, that page still misses pets, such as banana dog, gold rat and plum elephant - if your intention is to keep all pets that are or ever were available in the same page rather than having them only listed in the specific pet's type page.

Edit: Yes, I get that it's a proposal what to do about the issue, but as it is missing pets, it's not a complete list and therefore doesn't completely show how big that article would be - not to mention that we do not know how many new pets or variations we'll see (for example, we just had banana dog and right after a plum panther).
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Notsizzly at Aug 14, 2012 10:14:40 AM]
[Aug 14, 2012 10:11:41 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Franklincain

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Edit: Yes, I get that it's a proposal what to do about the issue, but as it is missing pets, it's not a complete list and therefore doesn't completely show how big that article would be - not to mention that we do not know how many new pets or variations we'll see (for example, we just had banana dog and right after a plum panther).

It's actually a copy lifted from the "official"-and-still-locked Pets page. As such, it's a list of all the pets known at the time that page got locked (plus whatever updates have been added since by administrators).

So long as the official page stays locked, it will continue to become more and more outdated. The only way to change that is to get that page unlocked, so we can all work at keeping that page complete and up-to-date. And the only way to get that page unlocked would be to convince the admins to unlock the page; and that would require achieving a consensus of "what format do we want?"...

Yes, I can continue to update my sandboxes. And I will, to the best of my ability.

But the optimal solution is to agree on how we want that official page to look, and then move forward...
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Franklin W. Cain (Pirate FranklinCain on Meridian and other Oceans)
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[Aug 14, 2012 12:13:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Franklincain

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Taking a quick look, that page still misses pets, such as banana dog, gold rat and plum elephant

Did not notice this until I started checking the sources for new updates...
This was actually a panther (not an elephant)...
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Notsizzly

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Taking a quick look, that page still misses pets, such as banana dog, gold rat and plum elephant

Did not notice this until I started checking the sources for new updates...
This was actually a panther (not an elephant)...


Yeeeeeah. And yes, I'm aware - just pointing out that the pet page as it is, is one big article and adding the missing pets into it just makes it bigger.
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[Aug 14, 2012 2:41:46 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Belthazar451

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If we could ever get the default skins to stop choking on the show/hide boxes, the more powerful {{hidden}} template would go nicely here...
[Aug 15, 2012 12:10:22 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Fannon

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I spent some time brainstorming to figure out a way to balance the concerns of those who want all of the pets that have ever existed available on the same page with the need to combat the.. unwieldiness of the current format, while still keeping it easy to read. To that end, I came up with a solution that Ladolal was kind enough to play around with and actually mock up for us to look at. I think it looks really great.

http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/User:Ladodal/sandbox2

The links for each LE/special pet are to sub-headings on each of the individual pages (which don't actually exist yet). That way if you click, for example, plum panther, it will take you to the plum panther section on the big cat page.

You can see a mockup of how we envision those sections to look here:

http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/User:Ladodal/sandbox3

Any thoughts?
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[Aug 16, 2012 7:24:41 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Notsizzly

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I spent some time brainstorming to figure out a way to balance the concerns of those who want all of the pets that have ever existed available on the same page with the need to combat the.. unwieldiness of the current format, while still keeping it easy to read. To that end, I came up with a solution that Ladolal was kind enough to play around with and actually mock up for us to look at. I think it looks really great.

http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/User:Ladodal/sandbox2

The links for each LE/special pet are to sub-headings on each of the individual pages (which don't actually exist yet). That way if you click, for example, plum panther, it will take you to the plum panther section on the big cat page.

You can see a mockup of how we envision those sections to look here:

http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/User:Ladodal/sandbox3

Any thoughts?


All this looks awful...............


...ly great!

It's neatly packed but accessible - and dividing the information is also great, it's more...readable? Can I say that? I'm going to say that. Readable.

Thinking about the future and all the possible pets we still might see, that looks like an easier way to update the information.

I like it, I'm a big fan of organized, detailed information but in a compact form.
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[Aug 16, 2012 7:45:52 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Franklincain

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Numerous comments to follow... ;-)

I *LOVE* the additional precision/details with source (i.e. "obtained from"). Nicely done, milady~! ;-)
*(salute)*
(I think calling that column "Source" would be better than "Obtained from".)

I like the restriction of the comment "Not customizable" to JUST those few pets with multiple colors available yet not subject to player choice (i.e. karkinos, gator, rat).

I admire (and -ENVY-) your clever embedding of section breaks INSIDE the table! I shall have to steal "borrow" your clever code-trick for my own use... >;-)

I believe the unicorn still needs to be split between the "basic" one from gold boxes vs the "shadow" one exclusively from black boxes.

I do not understand the need for a full-height pale grey space between sections. A short height spacer would be sufficient, I'd think. (But this is not a show-stopper, in my opinion, merely a small criticism.)

The black cat being on sale on Fridays-the-13th should have month and year TOGETHER, either ALL inside the parentheses, or else ALL without parentheses (not half-in-half-out). Furthermore, it might be easier to instead indicate that it's on sale EVERY Friday the 13th since (whenever) except for (specific exceptions, IF ANY)...

I think we'd still need this blurb (below) at the beginning of the "all known pets" section, before the actual tables:
 
Even though the available colors are listed for each type of pet, the colors can be chosen only for those pets that are purchased directly (i.e. you can not choose the color of any pet that is a random award, including the rat).

If you did put it in these articles somewhere else, please excuse me for not seeing it, and please let me know where it was.

Overall: Nice work. :-)

Thanks!
Franklin

(Edit):

Addendum...Forgot to mention...Love and approve your decision to make the "Sounds" data for the parent Pet type alone, with specific notes for the various "ghost" sub-types which have no sounds. ;-)
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Franklincain at Aug 16, 2012 1:45:36 PM]
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Notsizzly

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I believe the unicorn still needs to be split between the "basic" one from gold boxes vs the "shadow" one exclusively from black boxes.

Why? You can only get those from the boxes anyway, at the moment - and it's not only a shadow one you can get from the black boxes, you've got a chance for a black one, too.

I do not understand the need for a full-height pale grey space between sections. A short height spacer would be sufficient, I'd think. (But this is not a show-stopper, in my opinion, merely a small criticism.)

I like that grey spacer, it's visible enough to make the point.

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[Aug 16, 2012 9:37:44 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Franklincain

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I believe the unicorn still needs to be split between the "basic" one from gold boxes vs the "shadow" one exclusively from black boxes.

Why? You can only get those from the boxes anyway, at the moment - and it's not only a shadow one you can get from the black boxes, you've got a chance for a black one, too.

Shadow unicorn == Black unicorn...
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Fannon

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I believe the unicorn still needs to be split between the "basic" one from gold boxes vs the "shadow" one exclusively from black boxes.

Why? You can only get those from the boxes anyway, at the moment - and it's not only a shadow one you can get from the black boxes, you've got a chance for a black one, too.

Shadow unicorn == Black unicorn...


No. They're two different colors.
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[Aug 16, 2012 10:34:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Franklincain

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No. They're two different colors.

OK. Did not know that.

In any case, we do still need to split the non-black/non-shadow/"ordinary" ones that come from gold boxes versus the black/shadow ones that come from black boxes, just as we split all other pet classes between the "main" type and all of the sub-types...
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Franklin W. Cain (Pirate FranklinCain on Meridian and other Oceans)
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ladodal



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Yeah, I was well aware that there was a problem inherent with the Unicorns, and I was... completely flummoxed as to how to fix it. Because all Unicorns are Limited Edition.

Perhaps that's the ticket? A single unicorn for illustration purposes on the Pet page and then list both/all kinds on the Unicorn page. Things to ponder.

You're absolutely right about Month/Year (and we should probably try to track down confirmation on the other Friday the 13ths) and I'm going to plead sleep-deprived coding on that one. Parentheses were giving me hell. Things like "January 2012" and "Spring 2010" feel like they shouldn't have them, but "Banana Box (2011)" and even "Halloween (2009)" seem like they need them. Or did at the time. (But then... why Halloween but not Spring?) And as I tried to standardize everything gained and lost parentheses at least five times.

The grey rows are mostly an artifact of the scaffolding I put in place when first building the table. When I removed them, it looked wrong to me, but that's probably just because I'd been looking at them for a few hours. I felt like the tables needed something to designate which pet the "Variations:" information belonged to, and the blank default white seemed needlessly stark, probably because of the table border style.
 
I think we'd still need this blurb (below) at the beginning of the "all known pets" section, before the actual tables:
 
Even though the available colors are listed for each type of pet, the colors can be chosen only for those pets that are purchased directly (i.e. you can not choose the color of any pet that is a random award, including the rat).

Absolutely. That mock-up was never intended to be a finished page, I just made the table and then tossed in a copypasta of the protected pet page to frame it.


Edit: Added several more thoughts!
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Lado, Ladodal, Iara, Sequitur, and a fair few others.
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[Edit 3 times, last edit by ladodal at Aug 16, 2012 11:43:46 AM]
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Notsizzly

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The grey rows are mostly an artifact of the scaffolding I put in place when first building the table. When I removed them, it looked wrong to me, but that's probably just because I'd been looking at them for a few hours. I felt like the tables needed something to designate which pet the "Variations:" information belonged to, and the blank default white seemed needlessly stark, probably because of the table border style.


The first moment I saw those it felt right. Yeah, love at first sight. Therefore, as I already said, I suggest to keep those.
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[Aug 16, 2012 12:26:08 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Franklincain

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...all Unicorns are Limited Edition.

So are all Ponies. ;-)

As well as all those wascally wabbitses, err, Rabbits. :-)

Nevertheless, we distinguish between "primary" Ponies and Rabbits and "secondary" ones. So too should we distinguish between the original class of Unicorns (the lighter-color ones, specifically from gold boxes only) versus the new ones (the darker-color ones, specifically from black boxes only).
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Franklin W. Cain (Pirate FranklinCain on Meridian and other Oceans)
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Belthazar451

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Looks good. Just wondering, though: the list of limited-edition pets on the sandbox2 page, shouldn't they be linking to the sandbox3 page? Currently they're all linking to an anchor on the pets' own pages, but those pages don't have any anchors, and nothing is linking to sandbox3 at all.

Also, while we're making the images consistent names, I've been thinking for a long time that they should also be consistent sizes.

We still need to confirm availabilities for limited-edition pets that we seem to have missed, like whether or not the rabbit was available last year or this year.
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ladodal



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So are all Ponies. ;-)

Yeah, but they were (briefly) available from the Palace Shoppe in a selection of colors that the player could choose. Ditto Rabbits. Unicorns are always a random grab.

I'm just not sure what gives Gold Boxes "standardization" preference over Black Boxes. Gold boxes are more limited in availability (for ten days at a time, once every other month) and more expensive (2.5 times as expensive on Cerulean, generally about 3 times more on Emerald or Meridian oceans, factoring the market price of Doubloons) than black boxes.

Admittedly, you're much more likely to get a Unicorn from any given Gold box (.2%) than any given Black box (.02%), but I think the availability and lower cost of Black boxes probably makes up for this. (That is to say, people roll those particular dice more often.)

I just don't really see a problem with leaving the Pet page entry as it is (a white Gold box Unicorn, which does look more like a classic Unicorn is Mythological Creature Racism a thing?) and linking to both the Gold and Black box versions on the Unicorn page, and treating both of them equally, there.

Oh! And on the topic of Unicorns, the listed collar colors are just what I pulled out of my... booty trunk after giving the Unicorn color table a quick once-over. There's an HTML comment in the code to this effect; we need consensus on those gems. There may be other 'mock-up test content' on the pages, all of it should be noted in hidden comments.
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Lado, Ladodal, Iara, Sequitur, and a fair few others.
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Notsizzly

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Looks good. Just wondering, though: the list of limited-edition pets on the sandbox2 page, shouldn't they be linking to the sandbox3 page? Currently they're all linking to an anchor on the pets' own pages, but those pages don't have any anchors, and nothing is linking to sandbox3 at all.

Also, while we're making the images consistent names, I've been thinking for a long time that they should also be consistent sizes.

We still need to confirm availabilities for limited-edition pets that we seem to have missed, like whether or not the rabbit was available last year or this year.


SIZZLY'S OCD ALERT - CODE SO BEYOND RED THAT IT ACTUALLY IS GREEN. The pets are missing info here and there. I (oh please someone help me, give me a life) listed what I found, the other day. But I was and am waiting for the current issue being solved first and then I'll spam this thread or Franklin or someone who isn't as shy and lazy as me with it. It's not absolute truth but it's something. OCD ALERT END.
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ladodal



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Looks good. Just wondering, though: the list of limited-edition pets on the sandbox2 page, shouldn't they be linking to the sandbox3 page? Currently they're all linking to an anchor on the pets' own pages, but those pages don't have any anchors, and nothing is linking to sandbox3 at all.

Side-effect of sprawl. The original mock-up was just "Big cat" and "Cat" to test Fannon's layout idea; the plan is to include the extended LE tables on each pet type's page, so those anchors would exist, if this were implemented. The full table was done as a proof of concept long before I decided to go ahead and make test versions of the LE tables as well, and then I decided to just leave the anchors as they were, for ease of implementation. Also, laziness.
 
We still need to confirm availabilities for limited-edition pets that we seem to have missed, like whether or not the rabbit was available last year or this year.

Yeah, there are several instances of things being available (to give a random and fictitious example) every December from 2006 to 2010. But not 2011? Occasionally I managed to find some bit of info that made that seem potentially logical, but most of the time... not so much. I seem to recall making a running list of these mysteries in a text file, I'm just... not entirely sure where I put that file. D'oh.

Edit: There was one this year, it was Lavender. It was listed on the Rabbit page, and so I'd already added it to the LE table. The question of "was there a Rabbit in 2011" was one of those discrepancies that seemed semi-logical: in February 2011 there was a Gold Bunny to commemorate the Year of the Rabbit. It's possible that they may have skipped Easter that year, to avoid releasing two bunnies so close together, but I have no way of knowing. I'd assume that the standard-color ones would have still been available, but no one updated the wiki to reflect that, so I don't know. (And there was no Puzzle Pirates blog post for Easter. And nothing in Releases. And nothing obvious in Official_Documentation. Grr, argh.)
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Lado, Ladodal, Iara, Sequitur, and a fair few others.
Cerulean native by way of Cobalt, but increasingly hanging my hat in Emerald.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by ladodal at Aug 16, 2012 2:41:01 PM]
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Franklincain

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I'm just not sure what gives Gold Boxes "standardization" preference over Black Boxes.
...
I just don't really see a problem with leaving the Pet page entry as it is (a white Gold box Unicorn, which does look more like a classic Unicorn is Mythological Creature Racism a thing?) and linking to both the Gold and Black box versions on the Unicorn page, and treating both of them equally, there.

The unicorns from gold boxes ARE the more traditionally colored ones. While the ones from black boxes are not...That's why (for me) this distinction is so important.

If you want standard fantasy-classic/mythology-101 unicorns, go for gold boxes.

If you want retro-hipster/angst/punk/goth/rebel unicorns, go for black boxes instead. ;-)
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Franklin W. Cain (Pirate FranklinCain on Meridian and other Oceans)
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[Aug 16, 2012 3:04:52 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Fannon

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While the unicorn discussion, and the missing info discussion and all other discussions are fascinating and useful, the question right now is do we like this format? If the answer is y, then we can move forward with implementing it and figuring out all other details. The other details are secondary and distracting from the central question.
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[Aug 16, 2012 4:30:56 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Notsizzly

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While the unicorn discussion, and the missing info discussion and all other discussions are fascinating and useful, the question right now is do we like this format? If the answer is y, then we can move forward with implementing it and figuring out all other details. The other details are secondary and distracting from the central question.


Sizzly and her 39 personalities LIKE.
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~ Sizzly of Emerald ~
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[Aug 16, 2012 4:35:18 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ladodal



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I lack impartiality, but I like it.
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Lado, Ladodal, Iara, Sequitur, and a fair few others.
Cerulean native by way of Cobalt, but increasingly hanging my hat in Emerald.
[Aug 16, 2012 4:41:41 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Franklincain

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...the question right now is do we like this format?

Aye! ;-)
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Franklin W. Cain (Pirate FranklinCain on Meridian and other Oceans)
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