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Dwizzles

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Re: ROMS: (DC)XV -- GAME ON Reply to this Post
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At Mads: From the 2 minutes I spent skimming an old ROMS game when I got talked into playing, it seemed that a lot of people mixed up banning and lynching and that had a negative effect on them/the game.

Now, should I have said that? Oh, I guess I probably shouldn't have, but I still am not really positive how all this works. I expected that the day would start with a death and then we would go from there. BECAUSE HOW DO WE KNOW THERE IS A PROBLEM IF NOBODY HAS DIED YET?!

So yeah, I probably cast some suspicion on myself by saying that, but whatever. I also would assume that first time players generally do not receive important roles to the game, as this has the potential to really scupper things up.
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[May 24, 2012 9:39:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
randomact

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Dwizzles wrote: 
BECAUSE HOW DO WE KNOW THERE IS A PROBLEM IF NOBODY HAS DIED YET?!

...

I also would assume that first time players generally do not receive important roles to the game, as this has the potential to really scupper things up.

Have I told you that I love you lately? But the way the roles/rogues are given out are usually by a random number generator. I TOLD YOU THIS BEFORE THE GAME STARTED, GOD.
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Loathe/Forever.

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[May 24, 2012 9:46:27 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dwizzles

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I thought you said that since it was my first time, they wouldn't let me mess it up.

Which isn't usually how your first time works, not that I know from experience or anything.
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[May 24, 2012 9:53:17 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Mousebait

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Dwizzles wrote: 
I expected that the day would start with a death and then we would go from there. BECAUSE HOW DO WE KNOW THERE IS A PROBLEM IF NOBODY HAS DIED YET?!


I think we start the game on the premise that a group of "as yet" faceless people are killing many innocents. So we public spirited (and now highly reactive) townspeople are hunting down the rogues among our number.

Dwizzles wrote: 
I also would assume that first time players generally do not receive important roles to the game, as this has the potential to really scupper things up.


I believe traditionally roles are given randomly.
Dang it,sniped
Reb Tevye wrote: 
TRADITION

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"I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors, and I shall adopt new views as fast they shall appear to be true views." -Abraham Lincoln

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[May 24, 2012 9:53:45 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
PhoenyxStar

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Riku wrote: 
Phoenyx wrote: 
I could also be wrong there and he's insane and/or a rogue trying to throw me under a bus because people are talking about me.

How would him not voting for you be throwing you under the bus?

It makes as much sense as anything else, but having said that, it was an outside thought and I really do think it much more likely that everything else that I said before that comment is more likely.

Remember, we call it the Rogue OM Squad (ROMS) but it's also known as Paranoia - where would be the fun if you played it trusting everyone and not at all paranoid?

Until such time as I have confirmed proof of alignment everyone is a suspect and I will look at everyone's actions both as something they would do if they were a true town player, and as something they would do if they were not a town player.

Dwizzles wrote: 
I expected that the day would start with a death and then we would go from there. BECAUSE HOW DO WE KNOW THERE IS A PROBLEM IF NOBODY HAS DIED YET?!

A long time ago the mods used to kill off an OM as flavour in the opening post. Not sure why that stopped.

Dwizzles wrote: 
I also would assume that first time players generally do not receive important roles to the game, as this has the potential to really scupper things up.


Assume nothing at this point. Don't assume that a newbie won't get a power role because they're new. Most of the mods use a random way of selecting roles and who knows who gets what. None of the "old timers" will assume that a new player has no role, be suspicious. Be very suspicious of everyone!
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~ Phoenix or Danae

Depends on the colour of your ocean really.
[May 25, 2012 12:18:13 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
PhoenyxStar

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Re: ROMS: (DC)XV -- GAME ON Reply to this Post
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I would like to point out how damn hard quoting is without a working control key. Keyboard that is brand new going back tomorrow! Can't function without my control keys!!! (They're my push to talk keys on voice chat things if nothing else.)
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~ Phoenix or Danae

Depends on the colour of your ocean really.
[May 25, 2012 12:19:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Mrbriney

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Taelac wrote: 
I find Smileo's quick-draw abstain and Mrbriney's "gut" vote both more concerning than the mad ramblings of a Phoenix short on sleep


But I was so tired when I voted!

I find none more concerning than the other. It also aggravates me that people use real life circumstances to explain away their ramblings/incoherence/"I'marogueoopsdidntmeanthatwasjustfeelingpoorly". If you don't think you're going to get your point across because of real life situations, save your post for later. We have plenty of time on our hands, there is no reason for people to open themselves up to criticism by posting something incoherent when they can wait 12 hours and construct something that will both make sense and not attract so much criticism.

Not meant to be a dig at Phoe, it is just something I feel can be avoided.

Incidentally, whilst I'm on a semi-rant, I'll bring up something I feel relatively strong about. Pressure votes, pressure posting, "post your thoughts RIGHT NOW or I'll think you're a rogue", anything in that vein. Don't do it. I would rather see someone post occasionally and it be full of insightful content, bringing things to light and provoking thoughts more than "lolwtfisdis?" rather than someone post half thought-through balderdash to appease the masses. Give people time and they will provide, there is no reason to place undue pressure on someone purely because you're not happy with how they're playing the game. I, personally, lose a lot of respect for people who play the pressure line. Though I'm sure that's not really an incentive for any of you to stop doing so.

Nalanthi wrote: 
Nalanthi demands evidence. I mistrust gut. I can create several probable reasons, gut just seems to be a way of saying "I don't want to take the time to figure out what my reasons are" or even "I don't want to bother explaining them to you."


Hah. You are right. I find 'gut' votes to be an inadequate way of saying "My past experience playing points towards <conclusion>". In this case, firebolt reminds me of me when I was once a rogue (as it is called in this version). There is no point in me delving deeply into this however. I'm not about to do a post-by-post to try and pin shame on firebolt. The game is still young, she has not said much. It is very little to go by, and I acknowledge that it is made worse that this is an experience which relates to me only. Indeed, I am at quite a disadvantage because, although I have experience playing these mafia style games, people here do not know me or how I play. I felt it would be easier to explain the feeling behind the gut once people here had gotten more of a bearing on my character. Would the vote in these circumstances been met with such narrow-eyed skepticism if it were Quitex? Riss, even? In the last game she based a vote on a dream, and everyone seemed to shrug it by and say "Oh that's just Riss". I'm hoping that after this post you'll have a better understanding of how I play, and even the thought processes and ideas I hold that contribute towards that play style and vote justification.
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[May 25, 2012 2:24:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
JMRUDNICK

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While we are on the topic of a gut feel, last game the main reason why I voted how I voted was based off gut. Only problem about a gut feel is you need to back it up with evidence to give it a bit of weight or else it's in danger of being called out and dismissed. If something someone says or does irks me, I'll let it be known right on the thread. If your stances on certain issues change from game to game, then it will raise a red flag to me and it warrants a wl, but possibly a vote. If you exhibit the same playstyle from past games as being one alignment, it's noted, but not on the thread. It's just the way people play. For one I do hate pressure voting, but i also take issue with "I picked a number out of a hat and the hat picked you, so I'm going to vote there". Normally those are a few things I'll easily wl, fos or even vote a person for, so, this is a warning for everyone.
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[May 25, 2012 2:56:17 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
SeastarX

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Mostly just a check-in for now. Booked a somewhat last-minute trip to visit friends and am mainly lazing around enjoying the one week of sunshine we'll get here. I have brought my laptop so net access shouldn't be a problem.

Brief thoughts before I go out:

On Tae's other topics:
I agree posting lots of meta is handy for providing cover for a rogue (looks over at Sear ;p) and it's worth keeping an eye out for people who do so. As for lazers, I think it depends how we're defining lazing. Clearly I'm someone usually down the lower end of the posting scale on a quantitative level and might be more inclined to this point of view, but I've always looked at it from the stance of what someone is posting rather than how frequently. I'd rather someone posted once with some content than twice with a ton of fluff or a non-justified vote etc though, and I'll be looking at anyone doing the latter closely.

@Luv re. abstains and non-votes - I do think there are times when an abstain can be more useful, such as when actively trying to block a lynch (obviously depending on the vote count at the time; I'm thinking back to the start of High Security though).

Don't really find what Phoenyx said particularly telling one way or another.

Trying to read and type using the world's slowest trackpad ever is driving me slightly nuts and I need to get going anyway so will be back later (with batteries to fix up the currently dead mouse).
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Rachaelj everywhere but mostly Emerald.
Not particularly Silent, but still very much a Fool.
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[May 25, 2012 3:16:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
mads0001

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At Mads: From the 2 minutes I spent skimming an old ROMS game when I got talked into playing, it seemed that a lot of people mixed up banning and lynching and that had a negative effect on them/the game.

Now, should I have said that? Oh, I guess I probably shouldn't have, but I still am not really positive how all this works. I expected that the day would start with a death and then we would go from there. BECAUSE HOW DO WE KNOW THERE IS A PROBLEM IF NOBODY HAS DIED YET?!

So yeah, I probably cast some suspicion on myself by saying that, but whatever. I also would assume that first time players generally do not receive important roles to the game, as this has the potential to really scupper things up.


I'm not going to lie, it was something I THOUGHT about, and was concious of in my first game, but I never felt that voicing it was worthwhile, I was of the opinion "It's more of a problem if I'm a rogue, so since I'm not one, I guess it won't come up, since I'm not likely to be thinking about who to ban rather than who to lynch..." That's why your statement troubled me.

The only reason to worry about it is if you have the option to do both and drop yourself in it.
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[May 25, 2012 3:28:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
The_Jokerina

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NotJaret wrote: 
Going to have to agree with joker, but really the abstain doesn't change one thing. Forgot who voted for whom but they will still be lynched if nothing else happens.
I'm not I understand you, what do you mean? Abstains, in this game I believe, do contribute to vote totals and therefore you can indirectly get someone lynched.

AhoyLindsay wrote: 
makes twice that she has commented on small issues at hand without actually saying if she is suspicious of the people in question.
My comment on MrBriney was quite tongue-in-cheek, if it weren't, I would not have made a comment about sour cream dip. Both posts made me raise an eyebrow a little, however, they're both something that I would have to wait for the posters to expand on if they do. For me, it is very early to start pointing people as rogues.

MrBriney wrote: 
If you don't think you're going to get your point across because of real life situations, save your post for later.
I think it should be considered that people may have a set time in the day for ROMS time and so, there might be something that interferes with that that might affect their posting style.

 
Give people time and they will provide, there is no reason to place undue pressure on someone purely because you're not happy with how they're playing the game.
Some people may need the pressure to get them out of their comfort zone. Someone who has something to hide is more likely to flail than someone who doesn't.

 
In this case, firebolt reminds me of me when I was once a rogue
But, we are not all the same. Why, if everyone was like me, there would be a lot of explosions heh. Firebolt has posted very little and you have an immediate gut reaction on that which is very worrying. I, admittedly, thought it may have been a joke (I am the Jokerina of couse) vote but I wanted to double check. What worries me even more about it is that you have stated that she reminded you of you when you're a rogue when she has posted little and you then go on to say that we do not have a good bearing on your character, so it'll be hard for us to see things as you do thus giving you an easy copout if needed.
[May 25, 2012 4:13:00 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
NotJaret

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Is there a min # of votes needed to do a lynch? I thought it was just the lead and if you are tied with abstain then you are lynched.
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[May 25, 2012 4:20:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nalanthi



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NotJaret wrote: 
Is there a min # of votes needed to do a lynch? I thought it was just the lead and if you are tied with abstain then you are lynched.


I believe 50% of the town must vote but I am also a noobie.
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Nalanthi - A Blatant PvPer, War Monger and Officer of the Falcon's Fury.
-Midnight (Retired)
Tamman - Head of a Merchant Empire, and Strategist of Black Plague
-Viridian (Retired)
Nalanthi - Mercenary and scalawag.
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[May 25, 2012 4:37:27 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Mrbriney

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TheJokerina wrote: 
I think it should be considered that people may have a set time in the day for ROMS time and so, there might be something that interferes with that that might affect their posting style.

There's a lot of 'mights' in there. The point remains that if you're not in a fit state to post coherently, you should save it for later. It saves people issues later on.

TheJokerina wrote: 
Some people may need the pressure to get them out of their comfort zone. Someone who has something to hide is more likely to flail than someone who doesn't.

When was the last time you saw a rogue get caught by a pressure vote? In fact, what is the ratio of rogues being caught to innocents being caught by pressure votes?

Both are equally as likely to panic as the other, and it is much more likely you'll hit an innocent than you will hit a rogue, as has been made evident from the games I have read through. This is another one of those 'tactics' used to catch rogues that rarely, if ever, work.

TheJokerina wrote: 
But, we are not all the same. Why, if everyone was like me, there would be a lot of explosions heh. Firebolt has posted very little and you have an immediate gut reaction on that which is very worrying. I, admittedly, thought it may have been a joke (I am the Jokerina of couse) vote but I wanted to double check.


I don't know how you can say "we're not all the same" when 4 lines above you'd generalised just the same (bolded). Are all rogues likely to flail because you voted them? No. Otherwise we'd be catching them left right and centre. Is everyone the same? Of course not, but like I said earlier, our experiences reflect on our thought processes. Of course it's a weak vote, but then again nor does it really have any baring on the course of the game at the moment. We need what, 17 votes for a lynch? My one vote on someone that noone else has noticed will hardly be a game-changing moment. I am voting based on my past experiences, I doubt any of you will agree with me, nor do I expect you to, but for me it's the most I've got to go on at this stage.

TheJokerina wrote: 
What worries me even more about it is that you have stated that she reminded you of you when you're a rogue when she has posted little and you then go on to say that we do not have a good bearing on your character, so it'll be hard for us to see things as you do thus giving you an easy copout if needed.

I actually said that prior to my explaination you didn't have a good bearing on my character. If you'll note, the last sentence of my post says:
Mrbriney wrote: 
I'm hoping that after this post you'll have a better understanding of how I play, and even the thought processes and ideas I hold that contribute towards that play style and vote justification.


If anything this makes it harder for me to "copout". I can't really say whether that was you totally misunderstanding a basic sentence, or if you were actively trying to twist my words. It's irritating because my post was quite long, people might skim it. They'll read your post and think I'm trying to give an excuse because people here don't know me. In fact, I wanted to use the long post simply so that excuse couldn't be used.
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[May 25, 2012 5:09:22 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
The_Jokerina

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MrBriney wrote: 
There's a lot of 'mights' in there. The point remains that if you're not in a fit state to post coherently, you should save it for later. It saves people issues later on.
It only becomes an issue if people either keep using their current state as an excuse or people completely dismiss what they say because the poster was tired/sick.

I'm sure we're all agreed on that people need to post their thoughts. If there are players who are posting the bare minimum just so they do not get removed from inactivity, then putting pressure on them will make them post more. You're not helping anybody if you think you can coast on by, if tying you to an explosive device will make you post more, then so be it.

 
I don't know how you can say "we're not all the same" when 4 lines above you'd generalised just the same (bolded).
All does not equal some. You're 'gut' voting someone because they seem like you when you were a rogue. Something they said must've triggered something in your gut, so something in the 4 posts firebolt had made prior to your vote. I fail to understand how your playstyle as a rogue means that someone else is one.

You say that we do not completely understand your character and that after your previous post that we will have a better understanding. All I understand so far is that you'll vote for someone because they're like you even though they're not you.
[May 25, 2012 5:53:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kotetsu534



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Mrbriney wrote: 

TheJokerina wrote: 
Some people may need the pressure to get them out of their comfort zone. Someone who has something to hide is more likely to flail than someone who doesn't.

When was the last time you saw a rogue get caught by a pressure vote? In fact, what is the ratio of rogues being caught to innocents being caught by pressure votes?

Both are equally as likely to panic as the other, and it is much more likely you'll hit an innocent than you will hit a rogue, as has been made evident from the games I have read through. This is another one of those 'tactics' used to catch rogues that rarely, if ever, work.


I really don't like this. Apart from driving the game away from content back towards meta, it's, I think poorly reasoned and anti-town. Poorly reasoned because a) whether or not pressure ellicited any results in the games you read doesn't have any bearing on whether it's a good tactic (it means that, in that particular instance, in that particular context, it didn't result in a rogue lynch) and b) the use of "much more likely you'll hit an innocent" - well, duh, there are more innocents in the game than rogues. It's anti-town because it encourages players to ignore behaviour they perceive as being anti-town for fear of placing unwanted pressure on the exhibitor of said behaviour.

If we all sit around and be nice to each other, the rogues win.

On that note, I'll throw some more pressure on smileo for his refusal to engage in rogue hunting day one. Whether or not he's a rogue isn't the point - it's that if he isn't a rogue, he needs to change his behaviour to help find one. If he is a rogue, we can't let him slink away.

#Vote: smileo

FoS: Mrbriney, smileo
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Nomura, SO of Innocent, Member of Crimson Tide, Midnight.
[May 25, 2012 6:08:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Prosperity

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Phone ROMS playing is fun. Only problem is you need to check very carefully since it re corrects every word it doesn't recognize. When it does that in a long post it's a pain in the ass.

That's going to be the new defense for Argemone Booches (I think it was her?). I swear, I meant to write rouge! Damn autocorrect!!!
JMRUDNICK wrote: 
Normally a majorly of people are vocal about which stance they will take on Day 1. So, I don't see Sets as being suspicious at all about the fact about being vocal towards abstaining or not abstaining.

Sometimes it can be a convienent way for a rogue to set things up so that a few turns down the road they can say, "See? This is why I'm lurking. I already told you, I'm doing this new thing..." I think what you're saying is mostly accurate, but it can be useful to look for those who are covering their booty's a little too carefully.
Nalanthi wrote: 
Nalanthi demands evidence. I mistrust gut. I can create several probable reasons, gut just seems to be a way of saying "I don't want to take the time to figure out what my reasons are" or even "I don't want to bother explaining them to you."

u gib justification, be mai hearty?

I think gut votes are sometimes appropriate. Particularly after a few rounds, sometimes you start getting niggles that you just can't seem to explain. I think it's how you handle your own gut votes that makes them helpful or not, though. As others have said, the more information in the thread, the more we have to go on. Even if you can't explain a gut vote entirely, it is helpful to do your best so that your thoughts can be referenced later in the game. I think Mrbriney has done so.

Mrbriney also makes a really good point about pressuring people to post or vote a certain way. Often people are pressured or they have their arguments dismissed in a way that is damaging to the overall investigation process. People are less likely to post unique and abstract views if there is a good chance that they will be dismissed or pressured into a more widely-accepted viewpoint. It decreases the variety of the investigations going on and takes away from our information in the long run. Also, it's not fun being told that your viewpoint is completely wrong or stupid.

Kotetsu, discussing someone's argument and how you may or may not disagree with it is different than pressuring someone and it's far more helpful. Pressuring basically encourages everyone to conform to one play style which is not good for catching rogues. Discussing in a frank and open-minded way is much better for the town as a whole.
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CFO, Nonsensical Nudity Inc.
[May 25, 2012 6:48:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
JMRUDNICK

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TheJokerina wrote: 
Some people may need the pressure to get them out of their comfort zone. Someone who has something to hide is more likely to flail than someone who doesn't.


I have to say I also disagree with this mainly because the chances of actually hitting an innocent with a role, which wants to be hidden, is a lot greater than hitting a rogue. Rogues have the ability to have the help of a group to avoid this so-called flailing.

I'm not the biggest fan of pressure votes, but I will say that some is necessary, but Day 1 pressure votes? Nope, I don't agree with them at all.
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[May 25, 2012 6:48:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nalanthi



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Prosperity wrote: 
I think gut votes are sometimes appropriate. Particularly after a few rounds, sometimes you start getting niggles that you just can't seem to explain. I think it's how you handle your own gut votes that makes them helpful or not, though. As others have said, the more information in the thread, the more we have to go on. Even if you can't explain a gut vote entirely, it is helpful to do your best so that your thoughts can be referenced later in the game. I think Mrbriney has done so.

I think that a I'm not sure but here are my suspicions so I am voting this way isn't a gut vote even if you call it one. Mrbriney has given his reasoning... now. We certainly got more information after I applied that pressure. I will continue to pressure people that do not make their reasoning public.

Now, I'm not sure I like his reasoning, but I am still thinking on that. I do appreciate that he came back and gave some.
----------------------------------------
Nalanthi - A Blatant PvPer, War Monger and Officer of the Falcon's Fury.
-Midnight (Retired)
Tamman - Head of a Merchant Empire, and Strategist of Black Plague
-Viridian (Retired)
Nalanthi - Mercenary and scalawag.
-Malachite
[May 25, 2012 6:59:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
riku743

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Kotetsu wrote: 
I really don't like this. Apart from driving the game away from content back towards meta, it's, I think poorly reasoned and anti-town. Poorly reasoned because a) whether or not pressure ellicited any results in the games you read doesn't have any bearing on whether it's a good tactic (it means that, in that particular instance, in that particular context, it didn't result in a rogue lynch) and b) the use of "much more likely you'll hit an innocent" - well, duh, there are more innocents in the game than rogues. It's anti-town because it encourages players to ignore behaviour they perceive as being anti-town for fear of placing unwanted pressure on the exhibitor of said behaviour.

If we all sit around and be nice to each other, the rogues win.

On that note, I'll throw some more pressure on smileo for his refusal to engage in rogue hunting day one. Whether or not he's a rogue isn't the point - it's that if he isn't a rogue, he needs to change his behaviour to help find one. If he is a rogue, we can't let him slink away.

Vote: smileo

FoS: Mrbriney, smileo

I thoroughly disagree. I think it's pretty clear that MrBriney has played before on other sites; he's not just going off knowledge from reading a game or two. What about a pressure vote will catch a rogue moreso than an innocent? How many times have you seen it catch a rogue vs an innocent? And when has more than one pressure vote been at all useful moreso than just one? You didn't actually explain /why/ a pressure vote is useful. You simply said "No, you just haven't read enough!".

It feels like justifying your own pressure vote by dismissing his argument against them, while not actually arguing against his argument.

#Vote:Kotetsu
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[May 25, 2012 7:02:33 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
lyaka

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Looking at the Phoenix post, my eyebrows went up, but them I remembered that Phoenix rarely cares about how others will take what she says. It doesn't means she's not a rogue, but I can very much see Phoe going 'oh, I have a question' and then asking that question, without necessarily considering the meta aspects of 'wait, will this make people think XYZ?'

Furare wrote: 
JMRUDNICK wrote: 
Either way it's still suspicious, but I don't see it pointing to being a rogue.


"...I still don't get how anyone can say something is 'suspicious' while saying that it doesn't make them a rogue."


Well, it was pretty strongly implied that there would be more than the two standard factions (innocent and rogue) in this game. So 'suspicious' actually has a lot more ground to cover than just 'rogue'. Without having any way of knowing what all the factions are, it's hard to say which can coexist with an innocent victory and which cannot.

Drizzles wrote: 
So yeah, I probably cast some suspicion on myself by saying that, but whatever. I also would assume that first time players generally do not receive important roles to the game, as this has the potential to really scupper things up.


Welcome to the game! Glad to see you've already mastered the Jedi Mind Trick :)

Roles are handed out via random number generator. I thought the mods said that straight out, but a re-skim of the OP doesn't actually say that. However, I see randomact admits to having told Drizzles this, so I'm putting this firmly in the JMT camp.

Phoenyx wrote: 
Remember, we call it the Rogue OM Squad (ROMS) but it's also known as Paranoia - where would be the fun if you played it trusting everyone and not at all paranoid?


TRUST THE COMPUTER! THE COMPUTER IS YOUR FRIEND!

/sorrywronggame

mrbriney wrote: 
Incidentally, whilst I'm on a semi-rant, I'll bring up something I feel relatively strong about. Pressure votes, pressure posting, "post your thoughts RIGHT NOW or I'll think you're a rogue", anything in that vein. Don't do it. I would rather see someone post occasionally and it be full of insightful content, bringing things to light and provoking thoughts more than "lolwtfisdis?" rather than someone post half thought-through balderdash to appease the masses. Give people time and they will provide, there is no reason to place undue pressure on someone purely because you're not happy with how they're playing the game. I, personally, lose a lot of respect for people who play the pressure line. Though I'm sure that's not really an incentive for any of you to stop doing so.


Okay, of whom are you an alt?


And since I haven't seen the meta for this discussed in the thread yet...

This is a role-and-item heavy game. Items, quoth the mods, are single-use. At first look, it seems to me that innocents holding items that are not affected by game state should use them immediately. For an item affected by game state- such as one that grows more powerful the fewer number of people are left, for whatever values of powerful apply- I can see an argument to waiting, although at that point it's basically an enormous game of chicken. But if an item's power or property is relatively absolute, should not it be used at once to avoid the possibility of loss?
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Furare wrote: 
...disagreeing with you always feels pretty indistinguishable from being wrong.


Talisker wrote: 
...it's actually a Lyakarchy.

[May 25, 2012 7:12:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Prosperity

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Nalanthi wrote: 
I think that a I'm not sure but here are my suspicions so I am voting this way isn't a gut vote even if you call it one.

I guess that's true - my post talks more about gut feelings. For my own sake and the sake of my fellow players, I try and figure out where my gut feelings are coming from, even if it doesn't make all the sense in the world. Sometimes gut feelings don't. If I do that, I guess it's not a gut vote since I've tried to add reason.
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[May 25, 2012 7:17:04 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Mrbriney

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TheJokerina wrote: 
It only becomes an issue if people either keep using their current state as an excuse or people completely dismiss what they say because the poster was tired/sick.


Eh, I don't mean this as in "I'm going to vote people that use RL excuses!" I mean, if you're not in a fit state to post, don't do it and save it for later. Rather than me issuing a warning such as "I'm going to go after anyone that uses RL as an excuse" (Such as Taelac's "I'll kill you if you edit" thing), it's more intended to be "If you're feeling under the weather, save it for later"

I agree with you that it becomes an issue if they rely on the excuse too heavily.

TheJokerina wrote: 
I'm sure we're all agreed on that people need to post their thoughts. If there are players who are posting the bare minimum just so they do not get removed from inactivity, then putting pressure on them will make them post more. You're not helping anybody if you think you can coast on by, if tying you to an explosive device will make you post more, then so be it.


Agreed. People do need to post their thoughts, but I don't want people to feel pressured into posting before they feel they've fully compiled a coherent post. In particular for newer players, who may feel that they need to post something, anything, because the older players are cracking down on quieter members.

I feel as though I haven't really explained what I mean effectively, which doesn't really help things. What I mean to say is, people can feel pressured into posting things they don't truly believe, or you provide weak reasoning to your beliefs because you feel as though you have to before you're ready in order to appease the other people in the thread. Kicking people about because they're new and have posted their thoughts before they're ready doesn't sit right with me, and I consider pressure voting to fall under this.

That isn't to say that people who sit on the edge of idleness shouldn't be punished. As someone mentioned before, Elliptic was able to coast it as a rogue for remaining right under the radar. But what I mean to say isn't what I think it's coming across as, for which I apologise.

TheJokerina wrote: 
All does not equal some. You're 'gut' voting someone because they seem like you when you were a rogue. Something they said must've triggered something in your gut, so something in the 4 posts firebolt had made prior to your vote. I fail to understand how your playstyle as a rogue means that someone else is one.

You say that we do not completely understand your character and that after your previous post that we will have a better understanding. All I understand so far is that you'll vote for someone because they're like you even though they're not you.


I have explained my vote to the best of my ability. I can't say anymore without repeating myself.

I also dislike how you are only replying to select parts of my posts. You are choosing the battlefield, as it were, only arguing points that you think will cast the worst light on me. Are we having a discussion in general or are we picking only on that which could be portrayed poorly? Should I assume that parts of my post you don't answer to you are in agreement with?

I have acknowledged it is a weak vote, and I have acknowledged that you would not understand it. I don't expect you to, in fact. Are we going to persist in pressing the point? I feel as though we're going to start going in circles if you insist, which isn't very helpful for anyone.

Kotetsu wrote: 
I really don't like this. Apart from driving the game away from content back towards meta, it's, I think poorly reasoned and anti-town.


I think you'll find it's not me who keeps driving the conversation back to this. I can assure you I'd be happy enough to drop it.

Kotetsu wrote: 
Poorly reasoned because a) whether or not pressure ellicited any results in the games you read doesn't have any bearing on whether it's a good tactic (it means that, in that particular instance, in that particular context, it didn't result in a rogue lynch) and b) the use of "much more likely you'll hit an innocent" - well, duh, there are more innocents in the game than rogues.


Are you saying that it's poorly reasoned because I have evidence? That it is poorly reasoned because actually does kill more innocents than rogues? I don't think there's much of a response to that, other than thank you.

Kotetsu wrote: 
It's anti-town because it encourages players to ignore behaviour they perceive as being anti-town for fear of placing unwanted pressure on the exhibitor of said behaviour.


I get that, at least. I think that does come down more to my poor explanation than anything else though.

Kotsetsu wrote: 
If we all sit around and be nice to each other, the rogues win.

Quite, that would be why I have voted already. Have I come across as being particularly nice? I thought I hadn't.

Preview edit: lots of posts, will read now.
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[May 25, 2012 7:25:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
taelac

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Mrbriney wrote: 
If you don't think you're going to get your point across because of real life situations, save your post for later. We have plenty of time on our hands, there is no reason for people to open themselves up to criticism by posting something incoherent when they can wait 12 hours and construct something that will both make sense and not attract so much criticism.

So, your vote entirely explained by "gut" didn't really get your point across, and you didn't save it for later. You don't believe in citing real life, and specifically here address people not able to make their point due to real life situations, so what was your reason for posting something that didn't get a point across instead of saving it for later?

 
I would rather see someone post occasionally and it be full of insightful content, bringing things to light and provoking thoughts more than "lolwtfisdis?" rather than someone post half thought-through balderdash to appease the masses.

Balderdash like an entirely unsupported vote in the first twelve hours of the game? Since so far that's the only thing that's gotten such a reaction, I'm curious if you feel your advice generally is something you should ascribe to, or if you feel yourself exempt.

Mrbriney wrote: 
Nalanthi wrote: 
Nalanthi demands evidence. I mistrust gut. I can create several probable reasons, gut just seems to be a way of saying "I don't want to take the time to figure out what my reasons are" or even "I don't want to bother explaining them to you."


Hah. You are right. I find 'gut' votes to be an inadequate way of saying "My past experience playing points towards <conclusion>". In this case, firebolt reminds me of me when I was once a rogue (as it is called in this version). There is no point in me delving deeply into this however. I'm not about to do a post-by-post to try and pin shame on firebolt. The game is still young, she has not said much. It is very little to go by, and I acknowledge that it is made worse that this is an experience which relates to me only. Indeed, I am at quite a disadvantage because, although I have experience playing these mafia style games, people here do not know me or how I play. I felt it would be easier to explain the feeling behind the gut once people here had gotten more of a bearing on my character. Would the vote in these circumstances been met with such narrow-eyed skepticism if it were Quitex? Riss, even? In the last game she based a vote on a dream, and everyone seemed to shrug it by and say "Oh that's just Riss". I'm hoping that after this post you'll have a better understanding of how I play, and even the thought processes and ideas I hold that contribute towards that play style and vote justification.

Nalanthi seems to have taken this as additional reasoning, but it looks to me like a lot of words to say, "Gut."

Your question about whether you'd have drawn the same attention were you Quitex or Riss is a false equivalency. Quitex and Riss are both occasionally liable to do things that make no sense to anyone else, but we know that, because each of them have played several games here. In each of their early games, they drew a lot of attention for it. You are an unknown quantity, so you are drawing attention for it.
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ROMS XVII:Vanilla Filler
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[May 25, 2012 7:34:01 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
taelac

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Lyaka wrote: 
And since I haven't seen the meta for this discussed in the thread yet...

This is a role-and-item heavy game. Items, quoth the mods, are single-use. At first look, it seems to me that innocents holding items that are not affected by game state should use them immediately. For an item affected by game state- such as one that grows more powerful the fewer number of people are left, for whatever values of powerful apply- I can see an argument to waiting, although at that point it's basically an enormous game of chicken. But if an item's power or property is relatively absolute, should not it be used at once to avoid the possibility of loss?

Not necessarily, and probably not advisedly, since most item-holders probably need time to figure out an appropriate target or guess when they are being targeted themselves.

Where did the mods say items were single use? I'm not finding it.

I think it's probably best if item holders consider the possible uses of their item and make their own decisions. Not knowing what items are in play makes it difficult for any meaningful advice to arise in discussion, so only risks item holders saying something that will tip their hand. If someone's not sure of an appropriate strategy for their item, they can search online for 'mafia werewolf game props' and hope there's a near-analog discussed in someone else's forums or wiki.
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ROMS XVII:Vanilla Filler
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[May 25, 2012 7:45:16 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Mrbriney

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Taelac wrote: 
So, your vote entirely explained by "gut" didn't really get your point across, and you didn't save it for later. You don't believe in citing real life, and specifically here address people not able to make their point due to real life situations, so what was your reason for posting something that didn't get a point across instead of saving it for later?

Uh, I think it did get my point across actually. People understood that it was a gut vote, therefore the point was made...
Taelac wrote: 
Balderdash like an entirely unsupported vote in the first twelve hours of the game? Since so far that's the only thing that's gotten such a reaction, I'm curious if you feel your advice generally is something you should ascribe to, or if you feel yourself exempt.

I'm equally as curious to know whether this post is an attempt to irritate me or if you are genuinely trying to ask me something. Are you able to ask me a question without borderline insulting me, or is that too much to ask?

To answer you though, there is something called context. Try reading the post again. Then, with the word context in mind, you might understand where I'm coming from.

Taelac wrote: 
Nalanthi seems to have taken this as additional reasoning, but it looks to me like a lot of words to say, "Gut."

No, I actually believe Nalanthi was asking for reasoning behind the gut. I gave the reasoning behind the gut, as opposed to additional reasoning. It was a gut vote, therefore it was a lot of words that meant gut. Nalanthi understood that, hopefully I've helped further your knowledge on the matter.

Taelac wrote: 
Your question about whether you'd have drawn the same attention were you Quitex or Riss is a false equivalency. Quitex and Riss are both occasionally liable to do things that make no sense to anyone else, but we know that, because each of them have played several games here. In each of their early games, they drew a lot of attention for it. You are an unknown quantity, so you are drawing attention for it.


That is exactly what I was saying. I used Quitex and Riss as an example for my point that I'm an unknown quantity. I said that it will be tougher for me because I'm not one of the old guard, and used those two to prove my point. This is why I ask if you just compiled this post to irritate me, because it seems almost as though you purpsosefully misunderstood.

I have no issue with drawing attention for the way I play. When I play again next time you will know. This is how I play the game, you will get used to it after playing with me a couple of times. There's no problem my end, there shouldn't really be a problem on yours, unless you really are determined that everyone play the game your way. I'm not going to start conforming to how you want me to play the game just because you don't like it.

Is there a particular reason why you addressed me with something approaching hostility and then replied to Lyaka reasonably? Have I annoyed you in some way? Perhaps I murdered your dog? If so I apologise, we are only here to play a game afterall. I mean you no harm.
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[May 25, 2012 8:05:05 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
master2482

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MrBriney wrote: 
Rather than me issuing a warning such as "I'm going to go after anyone that uses RL as an excuse" (Such as Taelac's "I'll kill you if you edit" thing), it's more intended to be "If you're feeling under the weather, save it for later"
The thing is, the edit thing has caught rogues before. It probably won't anymore, but it has. We all have lives outside the game, and if something goes wrong, we all wish them the best. If they can't post, I'd prefer them telling us ahead of time, instead of just giving us radio silence, as you appear to be advocating.

I really, really don't like the way you're handling some things, notably the above and how you said you didn't like pressure votes while having a pressure vote on Phoe.
#Vote: MrBriney

Lyaka wrote: 
This is a role-and-item heavy game. Items, quoth the mods, are single-use. At first look, it seems to me that innocents holding items that are not affected by game state should use them immediately. For an item affected by game state- such as one that grows more powerful the fewer number of people are left, for whatever values of powerful apply- I can see an argument to waiting, although at that point it's basically an enormous game of chicken. But if an item's power or property is relatively absolute, should not it be used at once to avoid the possibility of loss?

I believe it was said that items would be transferred between people, so if an itemholder is killed, it shouldn't be lost. Also, I think items are a lot like roles in that talking about how we'll use them can help the rogues more than the town.
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The people about there, had they been awake instead of asleep, at other times would have seen even stranger things. Some day, but not at this time, I shall make an announcement of something that I never once dreamed of.

[May 25, 2012 8:06:12 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Mrbriney

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Master wrote: 
The thing is, the edit thing has caught rogues before. It probably won't anymore, but it has. We all have lives outside the game, and if something goes wrong, we all wish them the best. If they can't post, I'd prefer them telling us ahead of time, instead of just giving us radio silence, as you appear to be advocating.

I never said that the edit thing was unreasonable or in anyway flawed. In fact I agree with voting for people that edit, for obvious reasons. Nor am I saying people can sit there and do nothing and get off scot-free. See:

Mrbriney wrote: 
What I mean to say is, people can feel pressured into posting things they don't truly believe, or you provide weak reasoning to your beliefs because you feel as though you have to before you're ready in order to appease the other people in the thread. Kicking people about because they're new and have posted their thoughts before they're ready doesn't sit right with me, and I consider pressure voting to fall under this.


Master wrote: 
I really, really don't like the way you're handling some things, notably the above and how you said you didn't like pressure votes while having a pressure vote on Phoe.

My vote is on firebolt. It's not a pressure vote. So your reasons for voting for me are..?
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[May 25, 2012 8:18:19 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
taelac

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Mrbriney wrote: 
Is there a particular reason why you addressed me with something approaching hostility and then replied to Lyaka reasonably? Have I annoyed you in some way? Perhaps I murdered your dog? If so I apologise, we are only here to play a game afterall. I mean you no harm.

You mistake my tone--my focus is on your arguments, or the relative lack of them in favor of logical fallacies.

The way you are playing is fast-tracking your name to my FoS list. There is no pressing need to have voted within twelve hours of game-on, and your responses read to me like so much smokescreen instead of anything that justifies either the vote in the first place or that it remains where you placed it. It begins to ring like a bold rogue when I drop it on the counter. I am not advising you to change the way you are playing--I'm merely informing you that the way you are playing is likely to intersect with the currently meandering direction of my vote.

@Master, the thing with the edit is less that it has caught rogues before (all of one, I think) and more that it gives the rogues a place to hide if they do make an error if no one is going to consider it lynch-worthy. It's not really any different than "lynch all liars." Failure to punish either lying or editing gift-wraps either of them as a tool for the rogues.
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[May 25, 2012 8:33:13 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
RogueQuitex

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- Voting will use the following system: if at Day end, over 50% of the players have voted, the person with the most votes will be lynched. There is no two vote lead needed.


To clarify, you need 17 votes for the lynch to go through. The vote leader will be lynched.
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