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teabagbill

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Re: Is it time for player mods?

 
 
 
 
Your previous post says otherwise.

I fail to address issues? Dude, we aren't running a country here. This is a public forum for a game.

I don't have misconceptions about the pp community, you are merely deluded, grasping at straws trying to backpeddle and have a point.


No, you misinterpret my post as me me being mad when in reality I am trying to show how your view of "all pirates besides supperpuzzlers suck at this game" is misconstrued. I am not backpedaling, I have said this in another thread to you before and have received the same childish "you mad, you jelly, I win" responses from you TBB.


You are talking about my stanse and yet you don't seem to actually understand it.

While I do not think that anyone qualifies as an exceptional puzzler except Epo, Geologist and Tzz, the fact that I say the ability has left the game is a much broader subject. It's also an opinion.

When people like Dalnoth, Shodan and Novo played, the skill level in this game was huge. About two years ago all of these players progresively stopped playing and there was no one who was even nearly as good as them left to pick up the reins. You have all of the best puzzlers pretty much stopping playing and all of the best blockaders pretty much stopping playing. Tell me, who is as good as they were that now plays?

A perfect example is treasure drop. I look at the number one lists at the moment and the people who are at the top of them were high legendary/ low ult a year ago. It's not an increase of their skill because some of them have ridiculously high experience, rather a decrease in the number of players who were actually good. Sean quit, Emma quit, Stroy quit, Peter quit, Goldy quit, welshy was banned and cloned quit. 7 players quit, 8 including myself and now there is literally no one good left. I could log on tomorrow and 10-0 every single person who is #1 at the moment. Every other puzzle and aspect of the game is exactly the same. Tzz and Geo are merely the exception.

It's an inevitable occurance anyway. The playerbase in numbers has declined massively resulting in less skilled players. When people like Kyubi and Reeves are considered good blockaders, surely you realise something must have gotten screwed up?


Thank you TBB. Everything you said here is legitimate, true, and thoughtful. I agree with that above quote.

But there is a huge difference in ^^that, and "everyone else sucks now", which is what you have said many times before and what I take issue with. I don't dispute you on the above, I agree. New players aren't as good as old players (in general): for example, I have been playing for 5 years but I couldn't get number ones until recently- that says something. However, "players today aren't good" just isn't true. The top shelf isn't set as high as it used to be, but the mids and lows are just the same and the current elite surely would have been considered solid to excellent players back in the day- ones that were consistently ult and were well respected. I'm glad we have this clarification aside now because we actually agree on many levels.

On another note, just out of curiosity, lets do a 10lp bilge off tomorrow (first lp does not count). I have never puzzled against you before, and would like to see if you could actually beat me 10 times straight while being rusty, or if I can get lucky a lp or two. No wager, because you don'y need the poe and I don't have it.



Yeah, I know I sometimes take what I say to the extreme but what I meant is the previous statement.

I've not logged on in 6+ months and to do a bilge off against you I'd need to ban evade, which is something I will never do. Sorry man.
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kenjennings

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Re: Is it time for player mods?

 
A perfect example is treasure drop. I look at the number one lists at the moment and the people who are at the top of them were high legendary/ low ult a year ago. It's not an increase of their skill because some of them have ridiculously high experience, rather a decrease in the number of players who were actually good. Sean quit, Emma quit, Stroy quit, Peter quit, Goldy quit, welshy was banned and cloned quit. 7 players quit, 8 including myself and now there is literally no one good left. I could log on tomorrow and 10-0 every single person who is #1 at the moment.
 
I know for a fact that TD skill level has plummeted and unless the people who I'm hearing are currently at the top in other things have all improved drastically in the last 6 months I'm not suffering from nostalgia. If they haven't I'm completely accurate.
TD skill lolz
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teabagbill

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Re: Is it time for player mods?

 
 
A perfect example is treasure drop. I look at the number one lists at the moment and the people who are at the top of them were high legendary/ low ult a year ago. It's not an increase of their skill because some of them have ridiculously high experience, rather a decrease in the number of players who were actually good. Sean quit, Emma quit, Stroy quit, Peter quit, Goldy quit, welshy was banned and cloned quit. 7 players quit, 8 including myself and now there is literally no one good left. I could log on tomorrow and 10-0 every single person who is #1 at the moment.
 
I know for a fact that TD skill level has plummeted and unless the people who I'm hearing are currently at the top in other things have all improved drastically in the last 6 months I'm not suffering from nostalgia. If they haven't I'm completely accurate.
TD skill lolz


You're lucky Epo doesn't really read the forums. He'd tear you a new one for a comment like that.
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MC MundanCe, SPC
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kenjennings

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Re: Is it time for player mods?

You're right. It takes years of practice to perfect the skill of being saddled with the better starting position and playing the optimal combination of the first 3 moves before defaulting into the rest of the game.
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teabagbill

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Re: Is it time for player mods?

 
You're right. It takes years of practice to perfect the skill of being saddled with the better starting position and playing the optimal combination of the first 3 moves before defaulting into the rest of the game.


Yeah that'd be awesome if it were accurate. It's not though.
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MC MundanCe, SPC
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kenjennings

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Re: Is it time for player mods?


The game is an algorithm that hinges on a coinflip.
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[Jan 17, 2012 12:09:17 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
teabagbill

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Re: Is it time for player mods?

 

The game is an algorithm that hinges on a coinflip.


You ever calculated the number of possible moves each TD game can have?


Also, it doesn't hinge on a coinflip at all. You really have no idea about the inner workings of the puzzle, do you? You just run your mouth based on a rumour spread around by another bunch of idiots.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by teabagbill at Jan 17, 2012 12:16:26 PM]
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kenjennings

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Re: Is it time for player mods?

No, does it even matter?

The board is loaded up until one player is forced to concede and give the other player the side slot. Which player has to concede depends on starting position because at the highest level players will play near-optimally until the tipping point is reached. Playing optimally just requires sufficient memorization of lever combinations that can and cannot be played and the series of moves that are played on them.

I know kung fu TD

 
You just run your mouth based on a rumour spread around by another bunch of idiots.
lolz
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by kenjennings at Jan 17, 2012 12:21:55 PM]
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teabagbill

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Re: Is it time for player mods?

 
No, does it even matter?

The board is loaded up until one player is forced to concede and give the other player the side slot. Which player has to concede depends on starting position because at the highest level players will play near-optimally until the tipping point is reached. Playing optimally just requires sufficient memorization of lever combinations that can and cannot be played and the series of moves that are played on them.

I know kung fu TD

 
You just run your mouth based on a rumour spread around by another bunch of idiots.
lolz


That's not true. At all. I've spent years playing TD with the top players you are talking about and every single one of them would tell you you are an idiot for saying that.
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MC MundanCe, SPC
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kenjennings

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Re: Is it time for player mods?

I don't need ten people to call me an idiot and not back it up with an actual argument, I already have one here.

Edit: Reposted in a new post to keep this linear.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by kenjennings at Jan 17, 2012 12:42:55 PM]
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teabagbill

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Re: Is it time for player mods?

 
I don't need ten people to call me an idiot and not back it up with an actual argument, I already have one here.


We do have an argument. It's been said countless times by all of us on these forums, usually to Stevensam, who is another proponent of your idiotic theory.

What is your proof anyway? You're trying to claim that a human is capable of analysing about 40'000 different possible outcomes. It really is ridiculous.

How much actual experience do you have with the puzzle?
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by teabagbill at Jan 17, 2012 12:42:27 PM]
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kenjennings

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Re: Is it time for player mods?

Reposted edit: What I'm trying to get at is, nobody has ever tried to counter the notion that TD isn't essentially an algorithm. I'm not the only one who has dropped the crack that started our little joust and I've never seen it properly argued. If you want, (you or Epo can) try to convince me otherwise, I'm open to it. But yeah, just saying no and calling me names or dumb isn't going to cut it.

--

A human doesn't need to analyze 40,000 outcomes in a TD match, that would be silly. You already know, based on the initial board, where the game is going to go. You just need to know, based on whether you're on the front foot or the back (again, depending on your position), how to corner your opponent into conceding the better opening or put off conceding the better opening and hoping your opponent misplays.

I don't have a lot of experience with the puzzle, I haven't bothered with it because it's boring after a few games, sorry. I know what the board looks like and how it plays. Are there some special coins that you get when you hit ultimate that I don't know about that shake the board and toss everything about and throw some randomization into the game? (speaking of which, I remember the hilarious butthurt that ensued when this was introduced via holes because hurrrrrrr something unpredictable zomg; people still complained about holes in familiar tourney settings years later trololol)
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teabagbill

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Re: Is it time for player mods?

Ok, I'll explain it loosely because I can't be bothered getting into detail, as I'd need to write pages and pages. TD at the top end is largely about board control and counting. Occasionally you get boards where it is essentially impossible for one person to win , but it's rare. Take it as being akin to someone entering an alchemistry competition and getting the luckiest board ever.
Excluding these, it's all about board control. Yes someone will start with board control, but you will not win if you keep it. You need to continuously score points and that's where counting comes in. You need to know what you can and cannot give away, where and when. You need to factor in round changes to maximise your point acquisition when switching. You need to be exact with what you count multiple moves before you make the move. For example, if I had a very bad board, I'd give away a chunk of points in one of the lower scoring rounds to try and turn the board in my favour, or I'd make sure I was enough ahead by round 4 that I could take a smaller final round to my opponent and still win. It's easily the most tactical puzzle in the game.
And no, it's not possible at all to know who is going to win from the start. If 2 top end players were to play each other, the difference at the end of the game in scores won't be over 10 points and they won't know who will win until mid way through round 4.

I've not explained this too good as it's pretty impossible to explain everything on a forum. I'd need to talk to someone on msn or something to get the point across but seriously, you need to get good at the puzzle before you are going to actually understand the inner workings of it. I understand where you are coming from as it really does seem that way but it's wrong.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by teabagbill at Jan 17, 2012 1:21:49 PM]
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kenjennings

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Re: Is it time for player mods?

That was a pretty good explanation, don't worry about it.
 
Excluding these, it's all about board control. Yes someone will start with board control, but you will not win if you keep it. You need to continuously score points and that's where counting comes in. You need to know what you can and cannot give away, where and when. You need to factor in round changes to maximise your point acquisition when switching. You need to be exact with what you count multiple moves before you make the move. For example, if I had a very bad board, I'd give away a chunk of points in one of the lower scoring rounds to try and turn the board in my favour, or I'd make sure I was enough ahead by round 4 that I could take a smaller final round to my opponent and still win. It's easily the most tactical puzzle in the game.
And no, it's not possible at all to know who is going to win from the start. If 2 top end players were to play each other, the difference at the end of the game in scores won't be over 10 points and they won't know who will win until mid way through round 4.
This makes a lot of sense. I figured this played a part in it, thanks for condensing it into something that made a lot more sense.

My initial point still stands as far as the puzzle is concerned though. I suppose the element of randomization comes from tactics or strategy, specifically the points at which the trading of position occurs. Although I guess it's a bit rash to say the entire game can be predicted, I think the segments that the game is divided into by the points where trading of positions occurs are predictable. It's still not fully-algorithmic but I think it has the least amount of randomization (which I think is the key to there being any requirement of skill) of all the puzzles. I concede that this doesn't mean there is no skill in the puzzle, but it's far different and seemingly less apparent than in any other puzzle. Of course, in hindsight there'll also be an optimal strategy based on the very limited number of random factors, but that's not really feasible in a game setting, especially if it's turbo. Experience will certainly help identify (near-)optimal ones though.
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teabagbill

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Re: Is it time for player mods?

 
That was a pretty good explanation, don't worry about it.
 
Excluding these, it's all about board control. Yes someone will start with board control, but you will not win if you keep it. You need to continuously score points and that's where counting comes in. You need to know what you can and cannot give away, where and when. You need to factor in round changes to maximise your point acquisition when switching. You need to be exact with what you count multiple moves before you make the move. For example, if I had a very bad board, I'd give away a chunk of points in one of the lower scoring rounds to try and turn the board in my favour, or I'd make sure I was enough ahead by round 4 that I could take a smaller final round to my opponent and still win. It's easily the most tactical puzzle in the game.
And no, it's not possible at all to know who is going to win from the start. If 2 top end players were to play each other, the difference at the end of the game in scores won't be over 10 points and they won't know who will win until mid way through round 4.
This makes a lot of sense. I figured this played a part in it, thanks for condensing it into something that made a lot more sense.

My initial point still stands as far as the puzzle is concerned though. I suppose the element of randomization comes from tactics or strategy, specifically the points at which the trading of position occurs. Although I guess it's a bit rash to say the entire game can be predicted, I think the segments that the game is divided into by the points where trading of positions occurs are predictable. It's still not fully-algorithmic but I think it has the least amount of randomization (which I think is the key to there being any requirement of skill) of all the puzzles. I concede that this doesn't mean there is no skill in the puzzle, but it's far different and seemingly less apparent than in any other puzzle. Of course, in hindsight there'll also be an optimal strategy based on the very limited number of random factors, but that's not really feasible in a game setting, especially if it's turbo. Experience will certainly help identify (near-)optimal ones though.



Yeah, it's different as opposed to less skilful to the other puzzles I'd say. It involves quick calculations and thinking as far ahead as possible, instead of say building large combo's. Experience is a huge factor in TD. I guess it is predictable, although no human as far as I'm aware is capable of factoring far enough ahead or factoring deeply enough for the puzzle to not be competitive.

It's a fast paced tactical puzzle and it's fun to outsmart your opponents and scrape a win. It can just be frustrating to learn.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by teabagbill at Jan 17, 2012 2:26:22 PM]
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helppr



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Re: Is it time for player mods?

I actually loved reading this debate.

Fraser wrote: 
It's a fast paced tactical puzzle and it's fun to outsmart your opponents and scrape a win. It can just be frustrating to learn.


Hence why it's one of the two puzzles I haven't attempted to learn properly (the other being Drinking). I'll get to it one day when I desire my Ultimate of Ultimates, and I can sit around Renowned/Grand-Master in both puzzles...but I'm still quite terrible.
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Captainben wrote: 
Sorry I haven't been involved in this forum debate, but after reading it I really wonder what has happened to this world's literacy. Governments spend billions on education and this is what it produces.

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teabagbill

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Re: Is it time for player mods?

I'm actually starting to think Cabinnaw is correct. From my experiences of playing with top end TD'ers and having watched hundreds of games, it was always sort of random who would win. It's likely that the board was always going to play out that way because a certain number of people had reached the level where they do play perfectly. I'd need to look into it more and see if it's feasible because the amount of variation possible kinda makes me think otherwise but I do know that considering all of the factors when playing a move, you tend to play the optimum move available at that time and if done continuously by both players it's inevitable that one person was always going to win. Human players aren't machines though. Even if it is accurate, it doesn't change anything because it is literally impossible for a human to know the inevitability of winning or losing earlier than mid 4th round.

Saying that, it doesn't take away from the ability of the players who reached this level. I'm pretty sure there have only ever been about 8 players to ever play the game who reached this level and my point in the lack of TD skill left in the game still stands as all of these players have over a period of time stopped playing completely and I'm pretty sure the current crop of players aren't capable of this. Certainly when you consider people like Purcell and Truman have sat at #1 on Sage for a long period of time recently.

Edit: I realise I'm probably the only one who cares now but screw you lot, it's interesting and I'm quite happy to talk to myself.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by teabagbill at Jan 17, 2012 4:10:02 PM]
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kenjennings

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Re: Is it time for player mods?

Go ahead, consider my interest piqued. I even hopped on and screwed around in TD on an alt. I guess it's not that boring, but I'm in the same boat as helppr, it's frustrating and obnoxious, especially if you lose a few in a row.
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teabagbill

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Re: Is it time for player mods?

I'll try and convince Epo to throw in his two cents. He knows a bit more about it than me and would probably explain things better too.

And yeah, TD is always that way. It's one of the few puzzles where it's solely down to player ability. There's no luck and no bullshit. Unless you play holes.
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Siggy

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Re: Is it time for player mods?

 


That said, this is unnessecary. OMs are already chosen from the playerbase. Most players in good standing already have the ability to temp mute. Whats the underlying issue you are trying to solve?


Strange... I was under the impression that OMs where chosen by people applying to a 'help wanted" ad on their website. Almost like being an OM was a job, not a pink named social club with a special channel which has one or two people get their collective panties in a bunch because someone says, "Good evening."
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Sig

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Imcolorblind auto-responds, "sig hacks sf :) try and see".

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sweetnessc

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Re: Is it time for player mods?

 
I'll try and convince Epo to throw in his two cents. He knows a bit more about it than me and would probably explain things better too.

And yeah, TD is always that way. It's one of the few puzzles where it's solely down to player ability. There's no luck and no bullshit. Unless you play holes.


I think you're overlooking the effect of parity, which is a question of luck and I understand with perfect play is determinative of the result. Check the discussions from ages ago, roughly a year after TD came out. Though perfect play isn't a human trait.

Edit: I think this was the first thread on it, though there were more.... maybe it was fixed? I dunno http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?p=400388
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by sweetnessc at Jan 17, 2012 5:22:26 PM]
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teabagbill

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Re: Is it time for player mods?

 
 
I'll try and convince Epo to throw in his two cents. He knows a bit more about it than me and would probably explain things better too.

And yeah, TD is always that way. It's one of the few puzzles where it's solely down to player ability. There's no luck and no bullshit. Unless you play holes.


I think you're overlooking the effect of parity, which is a question of luck and I understand with perfect play is determinative of the result. Check the discussions from ages ago, roughly a year after TD came out. Though perfect play isn't a human trait.

Edit: I think this was the first thread on it, though there were more.... maybe it was fixed? I dunno http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?p=400388


I think more was made of that than there should have been. It's only occasionally as far as I know that it actually completely determines the result and I think it's what makes most games so close. You need a few things to happen on the board at the start for it to be gamebreaking and there are ways to combat it. I think it's accurate that one player does have an advantage all of the time though, but it makes the puzzle fun trying to win despite that. It's kinda like one person attacking and one defending I guess. I'll ask around and get back to you though, as I'm really not sure. I just know when the board sucks for me and when it doesn't.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I92-W5f7DXk&feature=plcp&context=C3c7490aUDOEgsToPDskLqIi4j62z25sfLm5wCdQNE

The board favours Eyedea massively here.
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shipperthree

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Re: Is it time for player mods?

In TD, one person always has the board as there is an even number of levers (paddles or whatever) at the top of the board. Some people have argued that having an odd number of levers would make for a fairer game - but this would completely ruin the game, as you'd just had to figure out whether you had an advantage on the right or left side of the board, then just overload the opposite side with coins in round one.

Ok, so it seems the main discussion here is whether high-end TD involves skill or whether the outcome is pre-determined depending on the board.

Firstly, for the outcome to be pre-determined, both players must make the correct move every single go (I'm assuming a mistake allows the other player to capitalise and therefore win the game). There are eight possible moves a player can make every go (there are 8 places to drop the coin). Obviously, some of these will clearly be stupid moves, so, for the sake of this example, I will presume a player has an option of what appears to be two reasonable moves per go. Assuming one of the two available moves is the correct move, the probability a person selects the correct move every go in a 50 turn game is 1 in 1,125,899,907,000,000.

Secondly, the arguement that the game is won or lost at the very start depending on the board doesn't hold any real weight. In treasure-drop there are 1,073,741,824 possible starting boards.

I think it is reasonable to assume that at the start of a game, a player doesn't exclaim, "finally, board #743,682,004! I know which 50 moves out of the possible 1,125,899,907,000,000 moves to make this time! This game is MINE!"

Okay, now regarding the discussion of parity. Having board control is only ever an advantage below top-tier play. You will always win if you have control of the board unless your opponent traps you (i know this is a broad and simple suggestion but it is relatively accurate assumption). In top-tier play, trapping your opponent is key to winning, especially before round four, and, to some extend, round two. Infact, some moves are much, much easier to do if you DON'T have the board. I'd say parity is only an issue if you don't really understand the mechanics fully, as to all top end players it is fair the way it is. The forums support me here... it seems the only people who ever argue otherwise don't play TD, play holes, or play but aren't very good at it.

I haven't played TD in a while, but I used to be pretty good.
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[Edit 7 times, last edit by shipperthree at Jan 18, 2012 12:35:50 AM]
[Jan 18, 2012 12:17:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
helppr



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Re: Is it time for player mods?

 
I think it is reasonable to assume that at the start of a game, a player doesn't exclaim, "finally, board #743,682,004! I know which 50 moves out of the possible 1,125,899,907,000,000 moves to make this time! This game is MINE!"


This made me laugh quite hard.
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Captainben wrote: 
Sorry I haven't been involved in this forum debate, but after reading it I really wonder what has happened to this world's literacy. Governments spend billions on education and this is what it produces.

[Jan 18, 2012 2:21:57 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
teabagbill

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Re: Is it time for player mods?

 
In TD, one person always has the board as there is an even number of levers (paddles or whatever) at the top of the board. Some people have argued that having an odd number of levers would make for a fairer game - but this would completely ruin the game, as you'd just had to figure out whether you had an advantage on the right or left side of the board, then just overload the opposite side with coins in round one.

Ok, so it seems the main discussion here is whether high-end TD involves skill or whether the outcome is pre-determined depending on the board.

Firstly, for the outcome to be pre-determined, both players must make the correct move every single go (I'm assuming a mistake allows the other player to capitalise and therefore win the game). There are eight possible moves a player can make every go (there are 8 places to drop the coin). Obviously, some of these will clearly be stupid moves, so, for the sake of this example, I will presume a player has an option of what appears to be two reasonable moves per go. Assuming one of the two available moves is the correct move, the probability a person selects the correct move every go in a 50 turn game is 1 in 1,125,899,907,000,000.

Secondly, the arguement that the game is won or lost at the very start depending on the board doesn't hold any real weight. In treasure-drop there are 1,073,741,824 possible starting boards.

I think it is reasonable to assume that at the start of a game, a player doesn't exclaim, "finally, board #743,682,004! I know which 50 moves out of the possible 1,125,899,907,000,000 moves to make this time! This game is MINE!"

Okay, now regarding the discussion of parity. Having board control is only ever an advantage below top-tier play. You will always win if you have control of the board unless your opponent traps you (i know this is a broad and simple suggestion but it is relatively accurate assumption). In top-tier play, trapping your opponent is key to winning, especially before round four, and, to some extend, round two. Infact, some moves are much, much easier to do if you DON'T have the board. I'd say parity is only an issue if you don't really understand the mechanics fully, as to all top end players it is fair the way it is. The forums support me here... it seems the only people who ever argue otherwise don't play TD, play holes, or play but aren't very good at it.

I haven't played TD in a while, but I used to be pretty good.


Aye what he said.
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MC MundanCe, SPC
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kenjennings

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Re: Is it time for player mods?

After writing this, I want to specify that this applies to top-level TD. This all goes out the window if you take into account non-(near-)optimal (/awful-to-very good) play.

I still think the concept of 'total number of possible moves' is irrelevant. The concern in any given game is the possible moves based on a given board. Like you said, most of the time the possible inputs will be narrowed down to two or three 'good' moves based on the given board conditions.

Depending on how you split the board up or determine which section you want to play on (whether you look at one, two, or three adjacent columns; just throwing out the concept of scanning the board), you'll see familiar board conditions and you'll be able to judge based on this the set of moves you can or cannot play on them. So really, rather than thinking of the game in terms of a near-infinite set of possible moves, it is vastly narrowed down to a far smaller number of sets of moves/procedures to deal with the board's features.

I'm not trying to dumb down the puzzle, but I think that you're overcomplicating it. This will be a stretch analogy but I'll try it anyway. Take SF as an example. You could say that there's a huge number of possible drops but when you get to high-level puzzling, board conditions (namely breaker spawns and the presence of one "heavy"/more frequent color) will steer drops in a certain direction. It's a stretch analogy because SF isn't constrained to 8 possible inputs for every given token (coin, piece), but you get the point.

Essentially, game involving two highly-skilled players won't have some absurd number of possible moves. I'm not disagreeing with the overarching point that isn't pre-determined given board conditions, though. I think TBB's point about tactics and strategies of trading board position did it more for me than just citing the absurd number of possible moves a game can have where a large part of them won't even be considered given the board. Tactics and strategies introduce randomization via human error/choice whereas numbers are still solvable, particularly when narrowed down given the board.

I know nobody's going to solve boards or board segments in real-time, but like I said before, experience will really help identify the optimal sets of moves required to win these segments, so to speak.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by kenjennings at Jan 18, 2012 1:06:56 PM]
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helppr



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Re: Is it time for player mods?

I'm sick of Treasure Drop. Let's talk about Sailing, Alchemistry and Distilling because they're better puzzles.
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Captainben wrote: 
Sorry I haven't been involved in this forum debate, but after reading it I really wonder what has happened to this world's literacy. Governments spend billions on education and this is what it produces.

[Jan 18, 2012 2:41:08 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
shipperthree

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Re: Is it time for player mods?

 
I'm sick of Treasure Drop. Let's talk about Sailing, Alchemistry and Distilling because they're better puzzles.


Sailing, Alchemistry and Distilling aren't skill, because for each puzzle there is a limited amount of boards and a limited amount of variables or moves in each puzzle, so everything can be memorised.

/sarcasm.

Knowing what to do next is part of every puzzle. It's experience, and greater experience enhances skill, as you become familiar with a larger amount of situations. It's the same for every puzzle (well.. nearly every puzzle).
[Jan 18, 2012 2:52:22 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
kenjennings

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Re: Is it time for player mods?

 
Knowing what to do next is part of every puzzle.
I agree. It's just that every other puzzle has continuous incoming sources of randomization (every drop in sails or SF, every new column in distilling, etc.) whereas treasure drop only offers one source of puzzle-side randomization (in the opening board, which is then divided into the segments throughout the game as I've described several times, etc.).

 
It's experience, and greater experience enhances skill, as you become familiar with a larger amount of situations. It's the same for every puzzle (well.. nearly every puzzle).
Ditto what I wrote above.

And you've gotten me off my initial TD skills lolz opinion, so you don't have to rehash that one. :P You're not forced to deal with what the puzzle throws (assuming the ability to trade positions which I presume is present in every game) at you but what the opposing player does.
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shipperthree

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Re: Is it time for player mods?

 
And you've gotten me off my initial TD skills lolz opinion, so you don't have to rehash that one. :P You're not forced to deal with what the puzzle throws (assuming the ability to trade positions which I presume is present in every game) at you but what the opposing player does.


yep! agree completely
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