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scupperer

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[Idea] NOBLE - National Outpost Blockade League Experiment Reply to this Post
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National Outpost Blockade League Experiment

I want to start an outpost blockade league, similar to the NFL, or professional game of your choice.

The concept is simple - set up basic, small limits for #ships and $pay, and each team blockades an outpost for one round, the winner of which, whether they win the island or not, wins the "game" for that day.

Teams will be matched up against each other to establish a win/loss record, and the winners will then participate in a play-off / super 'cade at the end of the season.

The catch is; I want to do this at real outposts, in real blockades, regardless of whether who owns the outpost approves or not, defends, makes it sinking, sets silly pay, or whatever. The teams can continue to battle it out however they like for possession of the island after the 1st round, but it's not a requirement of the "game".

Politically, and as a design example, I want to establish that outposts should and can be up for grab every week and shouldn't cost a fortune.

My question is simple:
Would this be considered griefing? It's not a "no show", but at the same time - it's not necessarily a grab for the island, but could be, if either team wants to continue after the 1st round.

Sure, it could be done in "event" blockades, but then no one would participate unless I could offer rewards of a nature I can no longer afford. Furthermore, 1/2 of the point and fun of the 'event' is to force the owners of the outposts, by nature of multiple gaming blockades happening on their islands every week, to defend every week, but hopefully where a good portion of the jobber pool is more interested in watching/participating in the event than jobbing for the island owner.
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It is better to have your head in the clouds, and know where you are... than to breathe the clearer atmosphere below them, and think that you are in paradise. ? Henry David Thoreau
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by scupperer at Dec 14, 2011 7:28:37 PM]
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Hazarath

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Re: NOBLE - National Outpost Blockade League Experiment Reply to this Post
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Fantastic idea. Would participate if came to an ocean near me.
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Morbuzaan

I support PvP in sinking environments.

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[Dec 14, 2011 3:51:43 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
scupperer

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Re: NOBLE - National Outpost Blockade League Experiment Reply to this Post
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While waiting for judgment of the game-play acceptability of this event idea, I'll go ahead and flesh out my concepts.

Proposed Rules:

Since I'm based in Viridian/Malachite, this will have to be for that ocean, to start. If successful, I will consider opening other leagues on other oceans, if the idea hasn't been copied.

Islands:
1. The islands will be limited to Outpost islands.
2. Political considerations of the island owners will be accepted in the form of fund-raising, extortion payments to avoid gameplay at their island.

Teams:
1. Max of one team per flag.
2. Disentangling alliances are your own business.
3. Up to 5 game blockades will all proceed at the same time, on Saturday at Noon, game time. Teams will all pull from the same jobber pool. If more than 10 teams sign up, blockades will be staggered by 1 hour, in 5 game matches.
4. Teams will be responsible for moving their own fleet and goodies to the islands declared. Consideration, at first, will be given to a team's base location because of the time it takes for players to acquire and memorize maps after the ocean merge.
5. Each team is responsible for declaring war, dropping their own war chest and providing their own shot and ships.

Game Play:
1. Regular blockade game play, for 1 round.
2. If it's a sinking blockade, teams are expected to participate. Up to 5 ships, each team, will be replaced by me during sinkers, until ships/funds run out (and they have to sink to be replaced! I will be demanding bottles!). In such an event, the games will continue, regardless.
3. If anyone outside the event chooses to send in their own defense/attack fleet during the game, teams are expected to participate anyway, and by the rules. The points that count are of the two teams involved; other flag points will be ignored.

Ships and Jobbers:
1. A maximum of five ships are allowed on the active blockade board at any one time. You may have fewer than five, but you may not have more than five. Five is the number, and the number shall be five.
2. Maximum ship size allowed is a WB. Check here for sizes.
3. Maximum number of jobbers allowed on the board is 50.
4. You may fill any combination of ships you prefer, so long as rules 1,2 & 3 are honored.
5. Only one (1) extra ship may be boarding at the dock, or waiting in the safe zone to enter.
6. If a ship needs to be abandoned before it sinks, it will no longer be considered an active ship, once it loses influence. In such an event, the referee should be notified before entering another ship.

Pay:
1. Max pay of 1,000 poe/segment. Don't care how you split it.
2. Additional behind the scenes pay - don't care, but can not be advertised in any fashion, including tourneys, at shops/island boards, or on forums. In your own crew/flags - not a problem.

Penalties:
1. If a 6th ship with influence is on the active blockade board, -1 flag point per moving round.
2. If a 6th ship with influence is scoring points, -5 flag points per moving round.
3. If more than 50 jobbers are on the active board in ships with influence, -1 flag point per moving round until the situation is rectified.

Post Game Blockade Involvement:
1. Not a concern of this event.

Tournament Play:
1. This is a tournament of blockades that will continue from week to week, the "season" of which will be determined by how many teams sign up, so a group of the best teams can be selected for a play-off style tournament.

Rewards:
Depending on how the Inn sale goes, I'm looking at putting aside monetary rewards for the winners of each game period, increasing per game. For example, I may set aside 500,000 for game 1, 1,000,000 for game 2, etc., and the winners will split the poe based on some fun and unintelligible formula so that new winners get a bigger share, huge winners get a bigger share, but all winners get a share. Somewhere in the range of 50-100k/winning team for game 1, 100-200k/winning team game 2, etc. Increasing to a large poe prize at the end.
+ Random ships and prizes each week as well.

Costs per Team:
Estimated costs for a non-sinking blockade of this magnitude should be:
25,000 war chest
250,000? pay for max 50 on-board players
50,000? shot and rum

I'd like to keep it well under 500k max per week barring sinking, but it will cost, and the cost will be expected to be born by the teams.
So find sponsors.
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It is better to have your head in the clouds, and know where you are... than to breathe the clearer atmosphere below them, and think that you are in paradise. ? Henry David Thoreau
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[Edit 12 times, last edit by scupperer at Dec 20, 2011 9:53:24 AM]
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catscanner

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Re: [Idea] NOBLE - National Outpost Blockade League Experiment Reply to this Post
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I like it Scupp.
[Dec 14, 2011 10:44:33 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Chavez67

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Re: [Idea] NOBLE - National Outpost Blockade League Experiment Reply to this Post
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I would participate too, depending on which ocean and whether I could get on a team I liked.

I doubt it would be considered griefing in the current game. The only place it might be considered griefing would have been 2005 era Midnight.

Very Fandango, if you don't mind me saying so. Your problem, as with all such projects, is that someone's got to carry the ball.
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I did it.
clarify
It was me.

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Dylan

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Re: [Idea] NOBLE - National Outpost Blockade League Experiment Reply to this Post
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I like it very much.

Fourteen Frigates and twice that many War Brigs on Mid(blat) available for yer noble experiment.

Although I'm prepared to offer them as prizes, or to offer insurance during sinking blockades (don't we g-lub 'em?), I'd rather see at least some of them available to cross-ocean challenges - sinking of course.

To ramble as is my wont, let us assume that each of the three new oceans has a successful league season, with winners MC, VM, and SH. McVimtoCrap. Each will own an island at the end of the season, or at the very least have a smaller island available for a sinking event.

In week 1, MC hosts the blockade. Round 1 is VM v SH, and then in R2 MC defends, first against VM then SH in R3. The other oceans host weeks 2 and 3 in turn, with the hosts always playing rounds 2 and 3 against their visitors.

A score of variations are possible, of course, but not worth even discussing before the basic idea gets off the ground.

Perhaps the simplest way to start is - once the inter-oceanic routes are known - for two outposts (Occi and Ori) to volunteer (or be volunteered, ha!) to host such blockades. This would lead to the interesting situation that governing these outposts might be considered more prestigious than a capital large island!

I don't have the interest to carry the ball, but I can at least sponsor a bit of the botes.
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Chiptharip

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Re: [Idea] NOBLE - National Outpost Blockade League Experiment Reply to this Post
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I definitely dig the idea, although practicality may be an issue.

I gotta read through the proposal more carefully but on first glance I have a few suggestions/comments:

1) Remove ship class restrictions. This really limits strategic considerations by essentially pigeonholing teams into one or two optimal strategies due to how specific the restrictions are.

2) Implement a #job restriction - 80 jobbers on board with a max of 100 in the flag, to allow for people that fall off ships. This essentially keeps the blockade to be close to a 5 ship battle but allows a lot more variety

3) Use event islands or find powerful partner flags willing to let one or two of their outposts be used repetitively. Using random islands invites too much potential variance that can ruin an otherwise great idea. This event seems to be aimed at promoting in-flag talent, not shaking up the ocean's dynamics through the events. Using event islands will also allow you to do this outside of the window. At 1000/seg people will come even if its an event.

4) Your pay estimate is high. You are probably looking at closer to 350k for pay; not every jobber in flag is paid for every segment. You can expect at least one segment of pay from the predicted budget to be negated by not everyone puzzling, ships sinking/loading, etc.

5) While the event is hosted on Viridian, perhaps include a portion of possible spots to be reserved for out of ocean flags. This could easily be flipped to an overarching tournament with "knockout" rounds played on each ocean to reach the game's best teams. Plus, you get more oceans involved and you have less of a possibility of someone screwing it all up. Really, though, I don't see enough flags joining to make it worthwhile if its only hosted on one ocean.

6) Not sure how, but place some restriction on staff. Either you have to preregister your staff before each week (with one or two open alternate spots) or something. But I'd rather not see this event be yet another aspect dominated by interocean alliances and talent concentration. At the very least, you should only be able to compete on one team.

7) I'd limit how much overlapping you do. 1000/seg generally tops out at 200 jobbers total.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Chiptharip at Dec 15, 2011 3:24:17 PM]
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scupperer

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1 & 2) My consideration with the ship restrictions vs jobber restrictions is based on a couple of points, some of which might be easily solved, others are based on what I believe the *ideal* for outpost blockades should be, if ever addressed by OOO.
a) From an event hosting perspective, it's going to be easy to see violations if there's a ship count & type restriction, just by having someone on the board. Unless there's an easy way to always see a flag's jobber count without constantly refreshing (is there? I don't recall), it's impossible to police. I'll take suggestions if it can be solved, though.
One of the catches with events (at least mine in the past) is that if the refereeing can't be boiled down to 1 person in a pinch, it can be a real problem. For example, even if 5 blockades are going simultaneously, I can be on a ship at each one checking ship counts and score, without needing any help. Help is welcome, mind you, but there's always the pinch.

b) There's plenty of strategy with the multiple ship sizes involved. Granted, it's limited compared to all of the ships; but that's part of the idea.

c) My imagination of the outpost blockade ideal is that the seas are too shallow for big ships to enter the blockade arena, and the bay is too small for very many ships to enter. They should be easy to win, so one round should be all that's required.

d) With 5 or 6 of these happening each week for 10-12 weeks straight on real outposts, I am kind of hoping outpost owners give up and the game winners gets the island.

3) If OOO rejects real blockades as the venue, I will likely withdraw from hosting and throw the idea out there for someone else to pick up and implement on traditional event terms. It's not just talent I desire to promote, but the implementation of that talent - so, yes, shaking up the ocean's dynamics is exactly what I'm looking for. The potential variance will just be a unpredictable obstacle for the teams to work around, since their points are the only ones that will count for their win.

4) Good - if the cost estimate is below 500k for each game (barring sinking), then I think it will be more feasible for flags to join.

5) If we can round up organizers & prizes from each ocean, this is a great idea. The problem is, having ships & shot & poe available for cross-ocean presence for the teams. This is a fair sized organizational obstacle. I could probably handle this for 1 team visiting Viridian/week, but it might get tight, and it would remove some ships I was planning for prizes.

6) With #ship restrictions, and all game blockades occurring simultaneously, cross-team staff won't be a problem. At a minimum, they could get by with 5 navigators, though 6 would be preferable, and they'd probably want gunners they can scrounge up, too. If jobbers are a problem any given Sunday (or Saturday) - they can still bring in solo sloops and compete. So, if they have their navers, they can still compete. Keeping track of their teams is a time consuming detail I'd want to avoid.

7) I'd rather the jobbers be another obstacle so the social game is part of the event.

What can be done is to set up divisions, though. 1st by Oceans, then by Archs within the ocean. That way, travel distance and location can be a consideration when matching teams.
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It is better to have your head in the clouds, and know where you are... than to breathe the clearer atmosphere below them, and think that you are in paradise. ? Henry David Thoreau
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by scupperer at Dec 15, 2011 4:13:53 PM]
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scupperer

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Re: [Idea] NOBLE - National Outpost Blockade League Experiment Reply to this Post
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I've changed my mind about jobber limitations - I don't want teams to try to hog available jobbers by just jobbing them up and dumping them on useless ships for an hour.

I'd also like to set the jobber limitation below what the maximum available stations are on the allowable ships, so I'm going to set the maximum jobbers at 50.

While I like the number 5, I also think 50 is a number that will wield itself to the social puzzle more than just random jobbers, as well as create new strategies over which sized ships to bring in, since it's lower than the 82 max stations available if WB+JK+LS+LS+LS is brought in, and teams would also want that 6th ship waiting ready.

After the first weekend of games, I'm betting people will begin picking teams they like and hate, just like in Soccer or Football.

I'm still uncertain how to check the jobber count easily, though, and there are additional problems to verification due to other activities in a flag outside of a small blockade.
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It is better to have your head in the clouds, and know where you are... than to breathe the clearer atmosphere below them, and think that you are in paradise. ? Henry David Thoreau
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by scupperer at Dec 16, 2011 9:53:03 AM]
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kenjennings

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I think the prize is just asking for a mega-team to steamroll the competition in what, as I see it, should be an event that gives teams that don't blockade every weekend a chance to play around. I understand you need to generate interest, but you need to strike a balance where it won't necessarily be monetarily worthwhile for more experienced flags and teams.

Otherwise, I like the idea. Also, I agree with Chip that you should find an island (or several) to host the event. Keeping with the idea that this should be a learning experience for aspiring players rather than a training session for the more experienced, it may be better to try to keep these non-sinking.
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scupperer

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I think the prize is just asking for a mega-team to steamroll the competition in what, as I see it, should be an event that gives teams that don't blockade every weekend a chance to play around.

If you mean that a talented team of 5 or 6 navers forming their own team manages to get 50 talented jobbers every week and they sweep the entire contest like the Green Bay Packers, then I don't see at all how that can be prevented, real blockades or not.

If you mean they'll use subversive tactics that wouldn't be possible if the game mechanics conformed to my blockade idea, but are possible because it doesn't, then, yes, I'd like to identify those in detail ahead of time so I can minimize the effects as much as possible.

 
I understand you need to generate interest, but you need to strike a balance where it won't necessarily be monetarily worthwhile for more experienced flags and teams.

If it were done solely as an event, I wouldn't put up the inn.

However, I'm also asking flags to drop alliances, declare war on each other, and many islands who were not "asked" will be opened up to potential round 2&3 sneak attacks from their enemies after each game.

Now, teams could easily start new flags and get up to noted without much difficulty to avoid existing alliance problems; but if they're otherwise occupied playing this game (and second and third place prizes, which I'd like to make enticing as well), then they won't be available to nav for others, at least not during the game's one round.

 
it may be better to try to keep these non-sinking.

I'm betting, because of whatever political webs are currently weaved, that very few will be sinking because of the exposure it opens up to the island owner. But even if they're all sinking, the max ships required on the board during a sinker is 5, and they could just go in with sloops and play 'run away' and sneak a point here or there. They needn't lose a single ship, if they're good.

Different strategy in those events is all.

I want to see both the experienced and inexperienced out there. Only one way to learn where it matters, and that's for a prize you're after. If it can't be the islands, then it should still be grand.
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It is better to have your head in the clouds, and know where you are... than to breathe the clearer atmosphere below them, and think that you are in paradise. ? Henry David Thoreau
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by scupperer at Dec 16, 2011 3:08:31 PM]
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Dylan

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I feel that hard jobber limitations is the wrong way to go about it, above all because mistakes can't be rolled back easily.

However, specifying jobber numbers is by far the simplest way to at least attempt to ensure an even fight, and it makes sense to go for a simple number like 50 on the board, as opposed to how many are (jobbed) in a flag.

To me, anything less than 50v50 is just too few, so have a 30v30 format only used in event blockades (5 sloops each?) where it is not about controlling flags, but simply about sloop navigators working together.

Perhaps one day, or for finals, have 75v75, or 100v100. The latter allows, just about, for two frigates and either a brig or a couple of small ships, but would likely usually be a frigate and two brigs, plus a sloop perhaps.

But 50v50 works, it is a level which any flag should be able to bring enough allies too.

As to how to ensure fair play, simply have a bote with both admirals upon it in the safe zone, as well as any observers, as well as a deputy for the admiral (not vice-Admiral).

No obligation to say when boats are being abandoned or understaffed, BUT announce entrances in ship chat (+23 brig Fat Marlin, -4 sunk sloop Thin Salmon), with observers encouraged to watch key areas of the map (sinkings) too.

Just ideas. Also, delay the really big prizes until end of season.
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kenjennings

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What I mean is that with such a high-profile prize, it'll turn into a glorified [blockade] OCL that'll pit the best against the best. Personally, I don't think the best (that already plays the blockade, or to use your term meta-, game every weekend because they can afford to) needs this event but they'll join en masse with such an attractive and worthwhile prize.

I don't think they'll do anything shady, they'll just be plain better, and that's where the problem lies. I don't think you'll get too many people involved if it's just another opportunity for them to get dominated out of the game.

There's nothing preventing these teams from joining a less attractive event (not sure what you meant when you implied this isn't being done solely as an event), but there'll be less incentive for them to go all out.
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Dylan

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I don't think they'll do anything shady, they'll just be plain better, and that's where the problem lies.


So simply have a two tier system. 30v30 in events, and 50v50 at islands where their current owners accept the challenge. And then "sponsorship" for something bigger at end of season.
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scupperer

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What I mean is that with such a high-profile prize, it'll turn into a glorified [blockade] OCL that'll pit the best against the best.

Do the OM's lower the value of OCL prizes so the best aren't interested in playing?

Since the teams aren't fixed from game to game, and there's a social puzzle, I'm not concerned. There could also be a Tebow, or a Brees hiding out there. There are also a lot of naver's out there... I suppose.

 
So simply have a two tier system.

I can try to match the games a bit by skill level, but I'm unfamiliar with the current batch of "best" navigators. Perhaps when they sign up, they can indicate their own judgment of their skill level. In addition, my judgment is that 1/2 a blockade is organization and political skill, even a smaller one.

I haven't given a great deal of detailed thought to the tournament layout.

 
or to use your term meta-game

No, don't confuse the blockade game with the meta-game. The meta-game is me shouting at the Gods of the Seas saying "Outpost Blockades should be Smaller and More Competitive! And if you don't change it, I'LL CHANGE IT!" And then doing this, opening up as many outposts/weekend as possible to challenge under the pretext of playing football.

That's my game :)
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It is better to have your head in the clouds, and know where you are... than to breathe the clearer atmosphere below them, and think that you are in paradise. ? Henry David Thoreau
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kenjennings

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Do the OM's lower the value of OCL prizes so the best aren't interested in playing?

Since the teams aren't fixed from game to game, and there's a social puzzle, I'm not concerned. There could also be a Tebow, or a Brees hiding out there. There are also a lot of naver's out there... I suppose.
It is what you want it to be, just putting my two cents in there. I guess it depends on whether you want more blockades, period, or make them more accessible to those who don't have the opportunity to take part in them (no guilt trip). Perhaps the former leads to the latter anyway.
 
 
or to use your term meta-game

No, don't confuse the blockade game with the meta-game. The meta-game is me shouting at the Gods of the Seas saying "Outpost Blockades should be Smaller and More Competitive! And if you don't change it, I'LL CHANGE IT!" And then doing this, opening up as many outposts/weekend as possible to challenge under the pretext of playing football.
My mistake.
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scupperer

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Perhaps the former leads to the latter anyway.

Yes, that's my theory. If all of the "best" navigators are otherwise occupied, and the jobbers aren't all sucked away in one game - others can play.

Edit:
 
It is what you want it to be, just putting my two cents in there.

And it is greatly appreciated; without the concerns being raised, there is nothing against which to judge it. So, please hammer away and ignore my terse and sarcastic writing style; I'm honestly not trying to pick fights but to explain my position and goals.

The only thing I'm dead set about is that these be real blockades on real islands. Most everything else is up for discussion.

 
I feel that hard jobber limitations is the wrong way to go about it, above all because mistakes can't be rolled back easily. However, specifying jobber numbers is by far the simplest way to at least attempt to ensure an even fight, and it makes sense to go for a simple number like 50 on the board, as opposed to how many are (jobbed) in a flag.


This would also be easier to check. A quick /vwho of ships entering the board, or declared abandoned, wouldn't be too difficult to referee.
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It is better to have your head in the clouds, and know where you are... than to breathe the clearer atmosphere below them, and think that you are in paradise. ? Henry David Thoreau
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by scupperer at Dec 16, 2011 8:19:40 PM]
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Been thinking more on the team match-ups and tournament play style. I've decided I don't want to lock people out of the tourney who want to wait & see how it works first, so I'll leave the enrollment open until after the 2nd round of games.

I'll let teams entering declare their own level of experience, and the first round of games will be based on that. Subsequent games will be based on losers playing losers, winners playing winners, with the avoidance of rematches where possible, but if inevitable, will try to limit to 1 rematch. Once a skill level is establish (3 games?), winners of the lower can be paired against losers of the upper for cross-movement. This will make it as difficult as possible for any one team to run the board, and provide as many opportunities for establishing an accurate win/loss record, and tier-grouping as possible. (I like the tier grouping, because it may allow for 2 final cades - a supercade and an awesomecade.)

New entrants in weeks 2-3 will be able to declare their skill level as well, and be worked into the mix. This means, for an even matching for late entrants, teams entering in Week 1 will get 2 byes, Week 2 will get 1 bye. Week 3 entrants will have to play the remainder of the season straight through.

How long should the regular season be? I do want to drag this on as long as possible before a play-off & super'cade, but I don't want the length to be too big of a deterrent. It will also have to be somewhat flexible during implementation, based on how many teams sign up. I want to see a minimum of 10 teams, and a minimum of 5 games each, so a play-off with 4 can happen. After that, I'll need some sort of formula to determine how many games will give a good play-off seed starting from these number. Probabilities was always my weakest math.

Naturally, I want as many teams as possible to sign up; expecting some to drop out along the way.

List of Prizes provided by me:
Inn: Innie Meanie Minie Moe, Prolix Purlieu Island
Apothecary: Prolix Purlieu Paints, Terra Island
Familiar: Psittacus Purview (pink/lime parrot familiar)
Pets: Piggy Purlieu (pig), Vibrissa Pelage (grey sheep), NoNoNoNoNoNo (black sheep), Ignacious (tabby cat), Piceous Puss (black cat), Unnamed Cat (lime?), Gilded Grimalken (gold cat), BB (brown dog), Prolix Proboscidea (grey elephant), Pachyderm Purlieu (white elephant), Big Electric Cat (white/black tiger), Clinquant Conquelor (tan big cat), Leporine Lagamorph (orange rabbit), Little Coch (brown small dog).
Eggs: Alexariel's, Cassopia's, Cassopia's 2nd, Damayi's, Dexla's, Dexla's 2nd, Faeree's, Faylind's, Flutie's, Greyladie's, Kathe's, Kingpriam's, Kit's, Kitt's 2nd, Kitt's 3rd, Lille's, Lulee's, Merethif's, Neerie's, Phillite's 2nd, Phillite's 3rd, Raquaetta's, Rhodin's, Scapegoat's, Shazbot's, Shensisque's, Xeitgeist's
Ships:
Special: Colossal Scup - black/gold, 1st GF delivered on Viridian Ocean
Special: Wild Scup - 1st WB delivered on Viridian Ocean
GF's: 20, WF's: 38, MG's: 5, WB's: 50, BG's: 7, MB's: 19, LS's: 5, DH's: 2, CT's: 24, SP's: 25?
Many many more ships are undelivered at my shipyard; any funds raised will go to delivering those and adding them to the count.

Awarding Prizes:
Each week: I want something for each winner. Whoever scores the most points among all teams will get something bigger. Losers, if OM's provide, will get lumps of coal trinkets (my favorite trinket). I want scale of prizes to escalate each week, holding back the biggest prizes for the play-offs and supercades.

Sinking 'cades: I want to be able to replace up to 5 ships for any teams that find themselves in a sinking 'cade. This will remove the cost of sinkers from the game. I'm hanging on to my shipyard, so I can provide the ships - I just need the funds raised to be able to cover delivery costs after I run out of poe (about 2 million).

More later.
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It is better to have your head in the clouds, and know where you are... than to breathe the clearer atmosphere below them, and think that you are in paradise. ? Henry David Thoreau
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by scupperer at Dec 17, 2011 3:29:14 PM]
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kenjennings

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Re: [Idea] NOBLE - National Outpost Blockade League Experiment Reply to this Post
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It is what you want it to be, just putting my two cents in there.

And it is greatly appreciated; without the concerns being raised, there is nothing against which to judge it. So, please hammer away and ignore my terse and sarcastic writing style; I'm honestly not trying to pick fights but to explain my position and goals.
And I'm not taking it as you picking any fights. In the same vein, I hope you don't think I hold anything against you either for what was a skirmish, at best, a few years ago.
 
The only thing I'm dead set about is that these be real blockades on real islands. Most everything else is up for discussion.
Agreed.
 
GF's: 20
Disappointed, I was convinced you had more. I may have to call in some friends and favors to get my hands on the Colossal Scup.
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Dylan

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Five games per team seems like a very good number not only to start at, but also for a number of other reasons.

A hard minimum of 6 committed teams could play round-robin (once against each other team) in a single league, yet as many as 32 could be accommodated in a Swiss style tournament. The former could be done at a single island in just three rounds per weekend; the latter might have 4 geographical divisions to each sort 8 contenders into order over three weeks, although inevitably multiple losers would drop out (or at best, merge with another failing team). To get to five games, then mix up (for example) Midnight-North 1 & 2 with Midnight-South 3 & 4.

Although five games works for league purposes, I'd suggest not having them over exactly five weekends. I'd suggest every other weekend, i.e. matches in weeks 1, 3, 5, 7 and 9 on principle. This leaves the "even" weekends for catching up. Then have finals on weekends 11 and 12. Gives you a natural season structure too, although rather than starting again immediately I'd suggest a month between terms/trimesters.

Request all flags in the league to confirm their presence 48 to 24 hours before the "official start time" by posting in the forums, but the tournament director will inevitably have to juggle things. For example, entrants may find their own island blockaded whilst they intend to take part in an event (heheh, old Dylan still thinks like a pirate!) and sometimes there will be odd numbers of teams. In that case, award a win to one team without any form of bonus points.

If I were TD - which I never will be, just saying - I'd have the 3rd rated match in the 1st round, 2nd in 2nd, 1st in 3rd, ideally. If there are more than three scheduled rounds, then 4th in 4th and perhaps 5th in 5th even. The idea being that islandholders, willing or unwilling, are asked to make the blockade sinking between rounds 2 and 3. Bwahahah! It goes without saying that they can do so before it even begins, or choose not to do so at all.

For scoring, or rather, to assist the TD to help decide how to pair opponents, I'm going to make a rather greevil suggestion. First of all, have all teams get 100 points just for competing (and to avoid negative numbers). Single digit numbers can be added as a bonus or subtracted as a penalty. Double digits, starting at 20, are for wins/losses. So at simplest, the winner gets 120 points and the loser gets 80, and the average is compared, rather than the total, when matching opponents with differing numbers of matches.

The greevil part (only if you like it, Scup) is that either team can increase from 20 to 30 the "wager" at any time, including on the forums from 22 hours in advance, by which time the TD posts the match-ups. Once raised, the opponent may re-raise by 10. Winning scores will never count as more than 150, losing scores will never count as less than 0. Further re-raises similar to backgammon.

Scoring suggestion summary, and examples:

  • 100, for the taking apart
  • +/-20 win/loss
  • +/-30 win/loss: Hook
  • +/-40 win/loss: Line
  • +/-50 win/loss: Sinker
  • -100 maximum possible for loser
  • +1 bonus for tarting opponent to losing by 100
  • +2 bonus for using only one class of ship (be it sloop or frigate)
  • +3 bonus for scoring 100 points
  • +4 bonus for scoring 400 points
  • +5 bonus for being in a sinking round with at least 80% contesting (40+ on board) on both sides
  • -1 penalty per minute with more than allowed number of players on board (max 5, then disqualification)
  • -2 penalty for scoring fewer than 80 points
  • -3 penalty for scoring fewer than 60 points
  • -4 penalty for scoring fewer than 40 points
  • -5 penalty for scoring fewer than 20 points


The above bonuses and penalties are intended to be cumulative, but likely need tweaking if implemented at all. The only only one I care about is the +5 ;)

I do not intend to sponsor prizes should Midblat intend to play; however the deeds in my possession shall stand as collateral to provide ship insurance for any ships lost in sinking blockades, under the same conditions as Scup (five ships that can reasonably be sunk with 50 on each side, not five frigates in a round, of course).

That said, if it comes to pass than interocean finals take place, I'll provide dubscribers with resources: a frigate and a brig to the winners of VM and SH leagues, not as a prize, but rather so that they can start trading and/or pillaging quickly.
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AraHurricane

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Re: [Idea] NOBLE - National Outpost Blockade League Experiment Reply to this Post
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Inn: Instantiating Displacement Theory, Prolix Purlieu Island


Hey Scup did joo forget thats the name of your SY and not your Inn? XD <3333


I still think that an extended long format to the event with one grand prize like your Inn worth 50mil+ is an overly dramatic prize that will get players involved. (I know obvious its the goal right?)However in the long run of things trying to use the event to encourage more blockading of smaller islands and encouraging smaller flags to participate will diminish after the event ends. Assuming you try to stretch the event for a longggg period of time, 3-6months, after the time ends you give away your Inn to the flag that wins. Then everyone goes back to blockading exactly the way we they were and your back at square one only an Inn shorter in prizes, try to run the event again theres no Inn and anyone who would have been interested in participating in another long run event for a grand prize doesn't want to do it because the length of time involved for w.e grand prize you can come up with next isn't worth the cost of regularly blockading outposts every weekend like winning an Inn.

So my opinion stands, that the event should be much shorter, maybe a month or two in length with a blockade package prize(random # of WF and/or WB maybe a shoppe on a large island or something) to get newer flags started after they've had these events to introduce them into larger blockades. I think this would work better overall to get A LOT more of the newer blockade interested flags to participate and battle it out against other flags rather than requiring them to pay to battle it out for months on end to win any prizes. We are after all talking about trying to make this as affordable as possible for as many flags as possible and not every flag is going to be able to raise the funds to blockade from week to week or week to every other week for month after month after month. In a long event you will inevitably end up with the largest flags with the most funds or highest ability to raise funds winning even if you try to keep it even.... lets face it you'd end up with RM or KO winning bcuz they've got the poe and the cade navers + the interest to own an Inn(especially KO after coming off of a loss to RM at Stormy and there might not be another chance for an Inn in the for see able future)....

Structuring it in a one to two month format with the winning flag at the end of the month getting a smaller more reasonably acquirable grand prize to rerun the event that won't necessarily deter bigger flags from joining but won't make small flags feel like they can't win because they don't know if they're going to still be playing at the end of a 6month blockade event or that the bigger flags with more experience are just going to bully them out of their chances of winning just so the big flag can have an Inn or even that they might not have the time to spend 2-3hrs on every weekend for more than a few months to participate.

Sorry if most of that seemed like a mass jumble of thought. I just wanted to express my opinion of how running the event for too long might eventually have adverse effects on the idea of convincing more players and newer flags to participate in the event.
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Arakain the Hurricane
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by AraHurricane at Dec 17, 2011 2:56:55 PM]
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scupperer

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Inn name fixed - I erased the wrong name when I decided to hold on to the SY.

 
encouraging smaller flags to participate will diminish after the event ends.

Inevitable, regardless of the prize. As to the rest, I have no interest in returning to the game on a larger level until coding is introduced to address some of these long standing imbalances in the game (and even then I may not have the time for it); this is my way of testing my theories, temporarily changing the culture to fit them as best I can during the test, hoping some of the ideas linger, and convincing OOO either through the event's miserable failure or wild success that they should put some fixes in, even if they're nothing like what I or others have asked for.

However, there may be some ways to put the social puzzle to work to help balance the game play, which seems to be a great deal of the concern... and that's with a betting pool. It's not something I would want to run myself, as I simply don't have the time to be online tracking the number of people that would be involved, but the concept is simple and goes like this:
10% house cut, which goes to the winner of the cade in question (and to help deliver ships for prizes/replacements).

Set up a shop to sell lots of items at 10,000 poe each. Each team is represented by one of those items. For example, Flag A is Hemp - if you buy a hemp at 10,000 poe, you've placed a bet on Flag A. Team B is Sugar Cane. You can tally bets up very quickly with a little excel macro and copy/paste the shop records.

Playing odds are auto-determined by the bets. For example; 500,000 on team A vs. 100,000 on team B would be 5 to 1 odds. So, if Team B wins, one ticket would be worth 54,000 poe (60k-10% house cut). If Team A wins, one ticket would only be worth 10,800 poe. (12k-10%). The odds could be updated regularly on a google document open for public viewing.

Since the outcome of the game is influenced by the quality of the jobbers as much as the navers, such a betting pool would influence people to protect their betting investment by jobbing for the team they've bet on, and a true gambler would bet for the long odds, especially if he can influence the outcome.

It would also, hopefully, pay enough for teams to desire to continue even if it looks like they won't take the grand prize.
(Is this sort of betting against the rules? I know that profiting from an event is, but I'll in no way be profiting.)

Dylan - brilliant, but complicated. A system to determine placement and help decide team match-ups once the win/loss ratio becomes complicated will be very helpful. If we get some good referees to help, I was thinking more along the lines of tracking point differences, sunk ships, and cannon shot hits; but starting with just win/win and loss/loss match-ups should be enough to get it started off on an equal footing - it will also give those without experience an opportunity to learn and get better without fearing loss of the grand prize just because they lose 1 or 2 early on.

I'm certainly hoping for more than 6 teams - I know there are over 50 flags on Viridian with better than celebrated fame, and noted is all that's needed. I think I'll set the dead-event minimum at 12 teams.
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It is better to have your head in the clouds, and know where you are... than to breathe the clearer atmosphere below them, and think that you are in paradise. ? Henry David Thoreau
[Dec 17, 2011 7:47:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.scupperer.com [Link]  Go to top 
AraHurricane

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I'm certainly hoping for more than 6 teams - I know there are over 50 flags on Viridian with better than celebrated fame, and noted is all that's needed. I think I'll set the dead-event minimum at 12 teams.


No matter what you do running the event in a long standing format immediately closes off any chance of any smaller flag participating making it just another event for any player willing to buy enough dubs to blockade an outpost every week. Don't we have enough of those? Not to attack anyone but on top of testing your theory I thought the whole point of this event was to encourage more players to participate in blockading whether OOO decides to actually do any coding or not? but w.e
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[Dec 17, 2011 8:14:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
scupperer

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Pfft - the cost will be less than 250,000 poe/game and they only need enough ships for 1 round, and small ships at that, and they only have to risk 5 of them in a sinker. I just came up with a method to pay winners each game (and maybe even losers if the betting goes high enough), and I'll be replacing permanently lost ships until I run out.

If a flag can't sustain this for a couple of games over 2-3 months, then they certainly don't have a chance in the open ended all-in blockade game. But if they want to eventually blockade, I believe they'll take advantage of this opportunity regardless of whether they think they can win the Inn, because the experience is real, the opponents are real, and the blockade is real. Ideally, this event and the meta-game surrounding it in the political arena will be able to sway owners to give up their islands to the 1 round winners, which is just as much a part of my goal with this game as the prize (and is, without the event, the prize anyway), and something I'll be working on once the acceptability has been decided.

There's a reason I want these to be "real" blockades, and it's not just to piss off the existing island owners.

However, if you have suggestions to make this event more palatable to people who don't want to put in even the minimum of efforts on which I'm trying to base this event because they've already decided they're going to lose before it's even started, please present them. Otherwise, complaints are tiring.
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It is better to have your head in the clouds, and know where you are... than to breathe the clearer atmosphere below them, and think that you are in paradise. ? Henry David Thoreau
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AraHurricane

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However, if you have suggestions to make this event more palatable to people who don't want to put in even the minimum of efforts on which I'm trying to base this event because they've already decided they're going to lose before it's even started, please present them. Otherwise, complaints are tiring.


I did when I suggested the event be a regular event spanning two months of time with a grand prize at the end of every two months of a blockade package to the winning flag that will aide them in furthering their efforts to actually take control of one of these outposts rather than one large event over a 6month period of time for an Inn. A short regular event is more popular to new flags than a large 6 month event that can only be popular once (after the Inn and your funds are gone) that at a glance is really just designed for the big flags to win because they can afford a 6 month event where a smaller flag that's interested might only be able to afford one or two months.

 
If a flag can't sustain this for a couple of games over 2-3 months, then they certainly don't have a chance in the open ended all-in blockade game


So honestly, in all actuality even though your doing this "to get more flags involved" and "test your own theory" you really could care less if any new flags get involved and continue to blockade after your event. You just want to screw around and waste whats left of what belongs to you and then quit. Because, in all honestly Three Rings is probably not going to change a single thing after you run the event one time that draws all the already well known flags that want to win an Inn followed by a quick return to regular high paying blockades, if they even stop doing them, which really proves nothing about how your theory would actually work because all they wanted was your Inn and in the mean time they continue to pay out their rears for islands. Isn't the first rule of scientific experiments that you have a control group as well as multiple formats of different groups? Not sure how your going to make it work but best of luck. I really have no say in this anymore as the OMs have banned me and the results mean little to nothing until I get unbanned. Cheers and Best of Luck to Ye Scup. Fair Winds.
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scupperer

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That's one possible outcome, sure. Since I have no stock in OOO, I can't force them to code changes based on my whim, but I can demonstrate the outcome I desire during the event. A grand failure might be just as demonstrable as 32 flags signing up and having fun every other weekend for 3 months, and a couple of islands might even change hands due to it. Even if they only possess it for a week; that's more opportunity for 250k each, or 2.5 million if they play 10 games, than blowing 25 million all in one weekend after sacrificing for 3 months. Which is still 1/10th the cost and effort of a "real" blockade on any given Sunday. I don't believe the event is demanding too much at all.

One of the reasons I want to run this as a season, instead of full-on elimination tourney, is precisely to spawn that opportunity on multiple fronts. I fully expect "losing" teams to continue to play in the event, just for the limited cost opportunity that the event will provide. Either with this event, or with flags taking advantage of the distraction to further their own blockade plans.

If the grand prize is big, then those involved on teams who would otherwise be smashing people up over their regular loyalties will instead be occupied, and they'll have to make a decision - compete, or save their island elsewhere? That's one possibility I'd want to see happen.

What I'd really love to see is all the flags in the ocean saying, "okay, let's set our own limits on outpost blockades and enforce and honor them ourselves - cause this is much more fun and a whole lot less stressful. Lay down your ships and cannons, and hug each other over a blockade board chess game each weekend."

But, I'm not a daytime dreamer anymore, so I'll just do what I can.

 
Isn't the first rule of scientific experiments that you have a control group as well as multiple formats of different groups?

If the game were treated like it were still in Beta and OOO messed around with blockade limitations every couple of months, then you'd have a true experiment. Mine is, alas, an event, and clearly the idea is nothing more than a crass way for me to delight myself at everyone else's expense for a couple of weeks.

If someone else wants to take the reigns after a season, they're welcome to - I'm not sure if I'd want to run it myself month after month. This is going to be a pretty big commitment as it is.

But if the inn is too big a prize; what better thing to do with it?

- added -
Perhaps I could just sell the inn and offer a 250k prize to every winner each week? That would sponsor about 200 games.
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It is better to have your head in the clouds, and know where you are... than to breathe the clearer atmosphere below them, and think that you are in paradise. ? Henry David Thoreau
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by scupperer at Dec 18, 2011 7:39:16 AM]
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Chimpduck09

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- added -
Perhaps I could just sell the inn and offer a 250k prize to every winner each week? That would sponsor about 200 games.


Perhaps, if you sold the INN you could offer a poe prize based on the final league position after all games have been played. This gives flags that lose their first few games an incentive to carry on competing, they might not finish top but if they know that a couple of wins can give them a bigger share of the prize it may encourage them to keep competing.

You could then if you still wish to use the apoth as a prize, have a play off involving the top 2 or 4 teams, with the winner getting the apoth as their "trophy" so to speak.

Either way, I like what you are doing here and look forward to seeing how it all pans out.
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Dylan

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sell inn if you want fairer prizes. could move poe to s/h too, via exch.

i can't match on midblat; agree important to keep losers involved.

suggest cup/plate structure, where flags with multiple losses are encouraged to continue, pref real blk.

per season, i have either a frig or 2 brigs for the purposes of crazy sinkage, at end of season; provided matched by another sinker or sloops. mvp navvers + ketchy cubby. places aboard allotted by flag doing well.

14 frigs 28 brigs to midblat fer this NOBLE experiment. request poe sponsors from the senior flags competing to help less experienced flags stay in the competition for the whole league. also someone from M or C willing to coord

soz about no keyb
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Hazarath

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I'd be happy to help coordinate this on Midblat. I'd say the same for Viridianite or Shunter, except that I'd want to participate on either of those oceans (Preferably Shunter, as that's where I'm focusing lately, but I'd be willing to move some resources across the inky divide in order to partake in something like this.)

To weigh in a bit on the Inn prize, perhaps hold it in reserve until the event runs for 3 or 4 seasons, then have a 'Tournament (or Season) of Champions' with the top 2 or 3 teams from each season, and have the inn be the prize for that?

EDIT: A concern: What happens, for example, if flag A and B are set to compete at Island X, and during the match, flag C decides to load a WF and sink all of Flag A's ships. It seems a little harsh to penalize Flag B for it, as it's very possible that they had nothing to do with it. Maybe rain check on the match? But that leaves it open for a flag to continually 'grief' the event and ruin it for one team.
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Morbuzaan

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scupperer

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To weigh in a bit on the Inn prize, perhaps hold it in reserve until the event runs for 3 or 4 seasons, then have a 'Tournament (or Season) of Champions' with the top 2 or 3 teams from each season, and have the inn be the prize for that?


I've just committed myself to selling the inn in order to fund the wide variety of prizes that will be needed to sustain a full season, so the Inn is off the table and the size of the prize, while still up for discussion, is no longer the Inn.

Dylan has just posted a thread in Midnight Parley related to this idea.

I would love to see this idea spread to the other oceans, but like I said, such a scale is more than I can handle running. However, if people want to step up and do it, I think we could hammer out where all oceans follow a same set of rules; and the rest of the work on the other oceans for planners would be raising prizes and refereeing.

One thing that can be simplified in the rules is to just say 50v50 on the board, WB the biggest sized ship allowed. The rest follows, and needn't be said. So I'll do it that way.
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It is better to have your head in the clouds, and know where you are... than to breathe the clearer atmosphere below them, and think that you are in paradise. ? Henry David Thoreau
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