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Lilcracker

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Re: Give the (meta) game back to the players. Reply to this Post
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alright now it's time for my input =D.

sorry if this is a bit unorganized but i have much to say and am far from a writer so bare with me.

first off -
 
AI Game:
Hooray - there are sea monsters, BK's, haunted & cursed this and that. But honestly, I've always considered these distractions from the real core of the game. Basically, they're quests, with trinket rewards - which is fun, for a while, but in order to keep player interest, will always demands *more*, turning the game into little more than any other game of questing for this and that. IMHO, these are ultimately dead ends. In fact, I found Atlantis to be a great, tiring bore after about a week of it, and haven't tried any of the new spin-offs and probably won't.

Perhaps that's just me, but I'll stand by my opinion that, however entertaining they are, the AI games are not substantial to the draw or survival of the game, and in fact detract from the player meta games that evolved prior to their arrival and kept people hanging around in much more substantial numbers.


alright now i started playing the game about a year before SMH came out. and i gotta say before then i was amazed at how amazingly piratey the game was. just about every part of how life was back then was covered:

ye had the stalls and shops for people who worked in manufacturing for a living.

ye had the palaces and islands controlled by players as being the royalty of such islands as it really was back then.

ye had the trader life. ships with cargo space, people who ran products across the ocean to sell it to islands which desired it. again just as it was in thosae times. ye even had mearchant bot ships.. basically extremely skilled fighters who had a huge ammount of loot to be looted.

ye had rum be the sustanance of the people, different types like swill and grog, and ye won from ships what ye would truly win (except the KB but it did fit fairly into the tales of piracy).

ye had the pirate life. going around pillaging and stealing goods from ships, gathering together to ravage adversaries for their share of gold and drink. hell this aspect had such a great effect on people that 158 people got together and had the audasity to go after the monster of all ships, El Pollo Diablo itself, or better known as "the black ship". and guess what? they acctually defeated it. one of the greatest moments in PP history and a show of how much people were acctually into game and its piracy theme.

and out of all of these, nothing bounced out of the boundaries of life in those times... no ghosts, zombies, warewolves, monsters,
and any other supernatural entities. (skellies were there but i do beleive they were in many of pirate stories).

then came atlantis. now yes the idea of sea monsters has been there all over the tales of piracy, however how many of you have heard of a dolphin with a trident as its nose in pirate tales? how about an oversized shrimp with spikes on its shell, or a giant turtle with a big fin on its back? i know i haven't ever heard of any of these and i have heard and read a ton of em. hell they even left out the most important monster of all, " The Kraken". the mystery back in that time of the game was, "where does kraken's blood come from?" and they gave us "well here is a dolphin, a shrimp, and a turtle to entertain ye." oh and they throw chupacabras at you... what?

this is the main thing i beleive made a lot of people leave the game... that it became less of a realistic "pirate themed game" but became more of a "here's another quest for you to undertake" game.

now yes fighting to defend yer ship and being in a multi-ship fighting invironment is in a way a new exciting feature but there was never a need to go beyond the realm of reality and pirate life.

before atlantis, there were crews with over 1000 members at one point ( namely skeletons and -frozen-, both of hunter. there were probably even more on other oceans). dubs were about 600 at the tiome.. about a month after atlantis was released dubs went up by about 500. might have been less than a month. and population dropped greatly. now yes the bilge bot bans had a great effect on it but i do beleive that atlantis had a big part in it.. practically killed WF pillages which were all over the place and was much more of a social thing than a bunch of people yelling "dont TH or youll be planked", even though there is like 1 ship around ye and you only have like 10% damage. by the way if ye do that, go to hell.

now i do enjoy the multi-ship bnaving atmosphere.. brings a new challenge into the bnaving of the game which i always welcome =). HS came later and got rid of the sparkles which sometimes saved those mess-ups so was a new skill of survival to learn as well.

given this i wanna rage at the devs for a second: now recently the AI of ships in HS has been changed dramatically. this happened at around the same time as the last update. i, and im sure other HS navvers who pay attention have noticed that the ships lately have been just sitting there, taking shots, without any retaliation or movement. a lot of the time ships would turn into your side and sit there while ye shot at em. turn after turn until they died, not even shooting a single cannonball. this upsets me vbery much because it made HS not fun for me anymore. there is no longer a skill to be developed in it, nothing special about it. now i load big ships not for the poe, not for the items, but for the fun of the action of doing such an event and bnaving against such an opposition. now i beleive a lot of people see this as a good change, as a revival of HS, but i dont beleive it is a solution to make AI easy as hell just because most pirates who attempt it can't do it correctly. it is up to them to get good at something. you need to adapt to the game, the game shouldn't adapt to you. if a dev is reading this please dont mess up atlantis too, it's all i have left =(.

now i gotta give props for some new releases that have come over the years. such as the expeditions, like the buried tresure and the shipwrecks.. these are a great addition and fall within the boundaries of pirate life. same goes for the viking raids and imperial outposts.


 
Being abandoned to float a full bilge ship back to port really blows


now scupperer it is up to you to keep the ship in shape. if ye cant bnav well enough to do so, train on smaller ships first, then switch to bigger ones once you get good enough. it is also yer responsibility to know when to port. when you see yer numbers lowering toi the point of being undermanned, PORT! all parts of leading a successful pillage.
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Meridian - Minigun

Emerald - Nightbear
[Dec 17, 2011 4:23:41 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
AraHurricane

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Re: Give the (meta) game back to the players. Reply to this Post
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In all fairness to those who are attempting to lead the larger pillages and arent porting when they should be. Its not necessarily their fault. I want to take a step back and give them credit for attempting to do something that very few players even attempt to do anymore and even less do properly. There's no one really setting an example for the newer players on what the proper techniques are for running a pillage or knowing when to port.

Four or so years ago when I started playing it MEANT something to earn the rank of Officer and a crew took the time to teach you what you NEEDED to know about how to run a voyage. It wasn't hey go poker/SMH for a few hours buy yourself a deed, get the dubs for a badge, and then join the first crew looking for Officers or make your own whether you know what your doing or not. I think the majority of players aren't being taught anything they're expected to learn for themselves. We aren't giving the new players the same opportunity's to excel as we ourselves were given when we started. How many crews out there are lead by a core group of players (who know what they're doing) that are interested in teaching new players the important how to's of the game like how to run a voyage or how to play a certain puzzle anymore. How many players that are greeters are actually able to answer any question a greenie is going to ask and is willing to heartie that greenie so they have at least one friend to talk to when they log on? Three Rings has done a great job writing up some awesome tutorials and hints on how to play puzzles or run pillages for new players but its only the basics of what a player might need to know and doesn't have the ability to answer questions or explain differently if a player is confused.

the analogy is this:
I once had a teacher in HS for science. When he was in his early 20's-30's he smoked heavily and always told himself he was going to quit smoking. One day while he was working a part time job his ex-wife brought his daughter to see him on break. He squatted down with his cig in his mouth not thinking anything of it turn his head to give his daughter a hug and gave her a 2nd degree burn on her cheek. He never smoked again another day in his life. He finnally realized that he could tell himself he wanted to quit but until he really wanted to nothing was going to change.

Now many players will look at that and go huh what? how does that relate? so i leave it at this. We can sit here on the forums and reminisce old times of how things used to be. but when you get down to the bare bones of things we're the ones who changed the game. We're the ones who stopped caring how crews were structured or how important it was or wasn't for a new player to learn the game before they had a crew. We're the ones who stopped supporting our heartie that pillaged or started playing poker while our crew members pillaged even if they weren't good. Your all about wanting pillage to be good but your not teaching any new players how to be good at pillaging.

If you were a new player logging in for the first time tomorrow onto Viridian or any ocean no big crews to help you, no one greeting you when you log on with a smile and offering to be your friend or help you out. Would you really stay?

Puzzle Pirates is still the only game of its kind on the market to my knowledge. We pride ourselves as being a community and people always talk about the "social" aspects. Where does all of that come in exactly if 45% of the players are in private, elite, and semi-elite crews that don't welcome new players, 35% are crews that let anyone be a SO regardless of experience or practical game knowledge, 10% are crews with set rank requirements but they don't really teach much game knowledge or communicate often and the last 5% on some level teach players how to play, have rank requirements but still dont' really communicate or support each other much because a loading SMH,CI,or HS is more important than that one crew member that tries to pillage his sloop every day but fails bcuz no one helps him, so he leaves that crew and goes to one of those 35% that will let him be O or SO for no real experience just because that 100 person crew has 2 or 3 people hes friends with that will pillage with him.

And I may not pillage anymore as much as some other players who post here. but for the vast majority of jobbers i have lost on a WB or WF pillage in the last year. They aren't leaving for poker. They leave to join their friend or they leave to join a SMH that wasn't on the NB when It started. there is actually a decent quantity of players that see the value in staying to the end of a voyage if at all possible to make as much poe as they can before they go back to playing poker or join a new voyage and there are players on the NB who honestly in terms of nav skill can't hardly nav their way out of a corner but fill a sloop or a WB every day to pillage. You can't honestly tell me you actually tried if they can fill.

I think that covered just about everything. Like Mini its probably really unorganized but the goal of my post was just to put some things into perspective about how the game has changed and how you can't always blame Three Rings, SMH, or Poker.
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Arakain the Hurricane
[Dec 17, 2011 5:42:45 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
marundel

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Re: Give the (meta) game back to the players. Reply to this Post
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Edit: Sniped by Scup, who said it better.

Maur- I think that's the point you're missing but still referencing. A small flag has to grind for hundreds of hours with maximum sacrifice to reach a blockade board where, depending on the situation, they could have their months of grind wiped by a single individual's daily poker income. There's a massive disparity in time/effort investment required under the current system, to the point that the mere acknowledgement of the disparity is enough to drive people away from the game.

Now, this I will agree with - a flag that HAS played the game, made the plans, set the goals, and achieved them can still have their fleet wiped by one guy with a great poker face. I'm still in favor of wiping out all the poker tables as currently programmed and making all poker "tournament" style - just like the current hearts and spades tables.

I disagree vehemently with the statement about grinding for hundreds of hours... setting a plan and achieving a goal is hardly a grind - it's an achievement. Of course, I understand that in today's "fast food" generation, not being able to make $160,000 a year as a corporate VP right out of high school is the definition of an unfair corporate grind, so I shouldn't be surprised to see that translated to online gaming ;)

...and Scup, you are still missing the forest for the trees in my posts. Trying to level the playing field a little by eliminating high stakes poker is significantly different from handing someone a blockade on a silver platter when they're not willing to put forth the effort in-game to earn it themselves. Taking away competition in a competitive game hardly makes sense, which is essentially what play limits equate to.
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Pizzahutpete on the Cerulean Ocean
Prince, Super Awesomeness
SO, Boochin' Drunks

Pizzahutpete everywhere, thanks to the merge
[Dec 18, 2011 6:33:22 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.thehomebrewstore.com    meadbrewer [Link]  Go to top 
Elliptic

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Re: Give the (meta) game back to the players. Reply to this Post
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Marundel wrote: 
I disagree vehemently with the statement about grinding for hundreds of hours... setting a plan and achieving a goal is hardly a grind - it's an achievement. Of course, I understand that in today's "fast food" generation, not being able to make $160,000 a year as a corporate VP right out of high school is the definition of an unfair corporate grind, so I shouldn't be surprised to see that translated to online gaming ;)

The problem is organizing an effort where people who contribute have a proportionate level of control and input into plans and goals, plus the difference in difficulty and nature between this problem as faced by a new flag and an entrenched one. You're not really addressing that by calling people lazy and entitled, but then again I understand that in today's "truthy" arguments, people feel free to characterize others in whatever way appeals to them, so I shouldn't be surprised to see that translated to online gaming.
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"That is not how the question frames itself."

Wend, royal archophobe
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Elliptic at Dec 18, 2011 8:08:26 AM]
[Dec 18, 2011 7:56:42 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
scupperer

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Re: Give the (meta) game back to the players. Reply to this Post
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Taking away competition in a competitive game hardly makes sense, which is essentially what play limits equate to.

Chess has been around for 1500 years, unchanged.

Blockades, you can upgrade every piece to a queen if you can afford it.

Limits provide a competitive outcome.
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I believe that we are all, openly or secretly, struggling against one or another kind of nihilism. - Ellen Willis
[Dec 18, 2011 8:07:49 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.scupperer.com [Link]  Go to top 
Dylan

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Re: Give the (meta) game back to the players. Reply to this Post
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Taking away competition in a competitive game hardly makes sense, which is essentially what play limits equate to.

Chess has been around for 1500 years, unchanged.

Blockades, you can upgrade every piece to a queen if you can afford it.

Limits provide a competitive outcome.


some wisdom like this
should be written in haiku
you big stinky tart
[Dec 18, 2011 10:28:39 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
marundel

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Re: Give the (meta) game back to the players. Reply to this Post
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Taking away competition in a competitive game hardly makes sense, which is essentially what play limits equate to.

Chess has been around for 1500 years, unchanged.

Blockades, you can upgrade every piece to a queen if you can afford it.

Limits provide a competitive outcome.

I'm not certain what point you are making here... blockades have defined rules as does chess. Ships have defined moves by choice and performance : chess has defined moves by type of piece. Chess is won or lost based on an evaluation of your opponent's future play and a strategy derived to counter it correctly : Blockades are won or lost by an evaluation of your opponent's future play and a strategy to counter it while getting back onto points. I could go on and on, but why bother.

Is your point that chess hasn't changed in centuries so blockades shouldn't? ...or is your point that blockades should be played more like chess? Either one makes no sense to me.
 
You're not really addressing that by calling people lazy and entitled

Actually I wasn't calling anyone anything of the sort - merely pointing out that the modern mindset seeks a more instantaneous gratification than in the past... a mindset supported by the near-real-time access to knowledge previously requiring a greater amount of time to achieve. ;)
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Pizzahutpete on the Cerulean Ocean
Prince, Super Awesomeness
SO, Boochin' Drunks

Pizzahutpete everywhere, thanks to the merge
[Dec 18, 2011 3:53:16 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.thehomebrewstore.com    meadbrewer [Link]  Go to top 
scupperer

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Re: Give the (meta) game back to the players. Reply to this Post
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I'm not certain what point you are making here...

Now, I would imagine it is you who are deliberately not seeing the forest for the trees. I'm willing to let the disagreement stand until tested in practice, though. Unless the OM's say my idea is griefing and if I do it, I'm banned, then I plan on following through with my idea with or without their support as an ocean event (preferably with).

 
now scupperer it is up to you to keep the ship in shape

Oh, I agree. I presume you know little of my past game play here in the game; I'm a middling battle navigator, but trading was always my thing, so my recommendations on these changes are not based at all on embracing incompetence. When you're 7 leagues out in a GF full of fruit on a 15 league trip, porting is not an option if your jobbers abandon you, for any reason. Abandoning the ship at a league point and wasting your time investment and pissing off remaining jobbers is about your only option. Of course, once I figured out how to solo multiple merchant brigs during the reboots, I pretty much stopped bothering with GF trade runs, as filling enough jobbers to start and then keeping them was a real problem. So, who suffered? Me or the jobbers? One might say - well, then, fix the reboot cheat (has it been?) - but then I likely would have just retired even earlier than I did, since fruit running was (is?) the last fund raising option capable of competing against the poker rich.

Coming at the issue from a pillager's perspective is beyond my experience, but I've read enough to see the problem is similar and the solution might work.
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I believe that we are all, openly or secretly, struggling against one or another kind of nihilism. - Ellen Willis
[Dec 18, 2011 5:19:57 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.scupperer.com [Link]  Go to top 
Hillsmen

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Re: Give the (meta) game back to the players. Reply to this Post
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Will you just restart SSS again? The best days of Viridian...SSS IDLD P4P. Every weekend.
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Captainrich
[Dec 18, 2011 7:00:24 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Culiford

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Re: Give the (meta) game back to the players. Reply to this Post
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I'm not certain what point you are making here... blockades have defined rules as does chess. Ships have defined moves by choice and performance : chess has defined moves by type of piece. Chess is won or lost based on an evaluation of your opponent's future play and a strategy derived to counter it correctly : Blockades are won or lost by an evaluation of your opponent's future play and a strategy to counter it while getting back onto points. I could go on and on, but why bother.

Moves on the blockade board have defined moves. Blockade resources and pay (all outside the board and used to change what pieces are on the board) are unlimited in the upward direction. In chess, more Queens can be obtained through action on the board, but in blockades Queens can be obtained through actions off the board. This brings blockades ultimately down to who has the highest willingness to pay and the money to back up that willingness, shutting out the flags that are skilled enough but don't have years of resources built up. The poorer flags can't catch up either, because the rich flags can continue to build up their resources at the same rate (possibly greater, although they do have the added expenditure of defensive blockades). There needs to be a way to allow flags to compete in blockades against comparable flags for appropriate prizes (island size).

As it currently stands, everyone has to match up to the rich flags if there's the possibility that the rich flags will either take interest in the less worthwhile islands for themselves or aid poorer flags in taking those islands. While I don't think there should be restrictions on large islands, I do think there should be a way for smaller islands to be targetable, winnable, and holdable by flags who don't have practically unlimited resources.
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Culliford on the Cerulean Ocean
Prince of Universe A
[Dec 18, 2011 8:44:14 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cnuofesd

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Re: Give the (meta) game back to the players. Reply to this Post
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Taking away competition in a competitive game hardly makes sense, which is essentially what play limits equate to.

Chess has been around for 1500 years, unchanged.

Blockades, you can upgrade every piece to a queen if you can afford it.

Limits provide a competitive outcome.

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Capablanca on Emerald
My posts are not my own opinion.
[Dec 19, 2011 4:40:53 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Chavez67

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Re: Give the (meta) game back to the players. Reply to this Post
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Taking away competition in a competitive game hardly makes sense, which is essentially what play limits equate to.

Chess has been around for 1500 years, unchanged.

Blockades, you can upgrade every piece to a queen if you can afford it.

Limits provide a competitive outcome.


Been making this case since 2003. Climbed that hill and died on it a dozen times already, maybe more.

Unfortunately, whenever the developers moved to entertain the idea of even playing fields in blockades, the players who benefited from uneven playing fields moved en masse to block those efforts. Now those players are gone, having claimed victory over the game, and have moved on to other endeavors leaving in their wake nothing but an impenetrable wall newer players can't surmount.

It's the typical case of killing your game by giving your players what they want.
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I did it.
clarify
It was me.

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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Chavez67 at Jan 10, 2012 7:16:16 AM]
[Jan 10, 2012 7:13:56 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Piraatteun

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Re: Give the (meta) game back to the players. Reply to this Post
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YPP is really different from other "Naval/Pirate" theme games by putting players together inside one ship to fight bots or other players, this is really nice but it shoudn't be our only option!

As a guy said in the 1st page, you could have the option of pillaging with an equal number of swabbies depending on your ship's size, of course the pay should be like 30% less than with players, what would encourage you post a job offer. I tell that because I know we're real people with real life duties, so we can't stand 4 hours in front of a computer waiting people to enter in a SMH/HS, then stay more 4 hours inside/rejobbing, those are 8 hours straight with only little stops and we need to hurry to do not get kicked by those mad XO's!

That's what I like, the game should give options, to:

-Those who want to have fun(start a pillage,start a SMH, etc) but do not have time to sit down in a computer 2 and more hours straight, we need to get up, do real duties, etc

-Those who want to be a fat nerd in front of the computer all the day and do not have a job/studies.

What I ask is for more dynamical game, without getting bored to it.
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Egeu on the Sage Ocean
SO in Pater Noster
Member of Black Flag
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Piraatteun at Jan 10, 2012 1:31:12 PM]
[Jan 10, 2012 1:29:33 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Hillsmen

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Re: Give the (meta) game back to the players. Reply to this Post
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Taking away competition in a competitive game hardly makes sense, which is essentially what play limits equate to.

Chess has been around for 1500 years, unchanged.

Blockades, you can upgrade every piece to a queen if you can afford it.

Limits provide a competitive outcome.


Been making this case since 2003. Climbed that hill and died on it a dozen times already, maybe more.

Unfortunately, whenever the developers moved to entertain the idea of even playing fields in blockades, the players who benefited from uneven playing fields moved en masse to block those efforts. Now those players are gone, having claimed victory over the game, and have moved on to other endeavors leaving in their wake nothing but an impenetrable wall newer players can't surmount.

It's the typical case of killing your game by giving your players what they want.


It is becoming a bit more even now on Viridian Chavez as the majority of flags try to keep it competitively close because outjobbing to win just isn't fun to most.

Edit: Thought that was Scup posting <_<
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Captainrich
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Hillsmen at Jan 10, 2012 2:47:03 PM]
[Jan 10, 2012 2:46:23 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Chavez67

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It is becoming a bit more even now on Viridian Chavez as the majority of flags try to keep it competitively close because outjobbing to win just isn't fun to most.

When one contestant must chose to fight with one hand tied behind his back to keep the sport from being boring, the sport is poorly designed. The fundamental problem in the early days was the players in power had convinced the players who weren't that it wasn't a sport at all. That an even playing field has never been offered in a decade of this game is collateral damage from those early players actions to maintain their early control over Midnight. Which is a shame.
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I did it.
clarify
It was me.

[Jan 13, 2012 12:17:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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