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scupperer

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Re: Give the (meta) game back to the players. Reply to this Post
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This has been proven definitively false. Before poker there wasn't anything remotely like what's going on now, in terms of wealth buying islands and wallpapering game play. In YPP social engineering, the community organizers should reap the most rewards, not the solo pokerers.


Based on further reading and chat, I'll concede the scale is like nothing before it; but it's truly no different than what people have been bitching about for years, sometimes against me.

Hell, I "bought" an island myself, from a despised community disorganizer who pushed the limits of social engineering in exactly the same manner everyone's bitching about happening right now with poker winners; who aren't even doing it for a more noble purpose of testing themselves against the game limits - they just do it for self aggrandizement (yeah, I did too, sometimes). There's irony for you.

The concentrated wealth isn't the problem, it just aggravates it.

The oceans are all about to double in size, which is a whole lot of real estate. Open more outposts, put limits on blockades - let the wealthy fund "blockade teams", and small flags can compete against them on a level field. Go out, create a new meta-game, and turn the Ocean into a big Risk board.
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I believe that we are all, openly or secretly, struggling against one or another kind of nihilism. - Ellen Willis
[Dec 14, 2011 1:55:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.scupperer.com [Link]  Go to top 
cmdrzoom

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Re: Give the (meta) game back to the players. Reply to this Post
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I submit that the pirate in question was also just in it for the self-aggrandizement and personal achievement/victory. "Noble causes are for scrubs", and all that. :/
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[Dec 14, 2011 3:38:14 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Hillsmen

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Re: Give the (meta) game back to the players. Reply to this Post
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A lot of the things mentioned here are repeats of what has been said for the better part of half a decade by some of the game's most talented and devoted players. Hopefully OOO takes this as a clue.

I'd be content with the following, in order of importance:

1) Remove 200k poker - May not seem that important but I believe a lot of structural issues stem from this. Mainly, 200k power allows unmatched concentration of wealth that creates "superflags" and fosters the unpredictability in blockades going from affordable to "holy shit who spends $8000-10000 worth of doubloons in one day". Plus, if you remove the ability of individuals to become super rich, ideally we'll see more emphasis on team based activities. Edit: Removing 200k poker would have to come with some sort of incentive for the super wealthy to burn off assets. Special familiars, PoE buybacks, etc.

2) Implement skilled swabbies

3) Hard caps, both in pay and jobbers on board, for outposts and mediums. I'd go like, 1000/seg 150 jobbers / no third parties on the board for outposts. 2500/seg 225 jobbers / 3rd parties - no alliances/not allowed to pay. Larges unrestricted


I like all but three.

Another one that is badly needed is a hard wall for all forms of SMH. We face some pretty big problems, like the fact we have way too many SMHs loading at all times. If people actually sank in SMH there may be less people doing it. Plus a map should dust after one or two uses, to stop people from farming it all day and night. The core of the game is pillaging and always has been. Why? It is one of the only options open to you from the start of your playing time here and the end of your playing time. To keep players around you need pillages that will fill in under 1 hour. Most people can't stand to wait 20 minutes for a pillage to fill which seems to be the average.

The game should be based around puzzling. It is not. Remove and implement what players have been asking for and the game will shift back to puzzling. That is important, because new players need to be able to puzzle with other people. You put puzzling and pillaging back into the game and that adds back in the social part for new players, which is key to them staying.

Edit: Concentrated wealth is going to happen, but when we get rid of some of this stupid crap they put in wealth will fall. We won't see extremely expensive blockades as much anymore and flags will go back to being funded the old fashioned way. I know somebody who doesn't play poker or anything like that but is still over 200+ mil, so concentrated wealth will happen.
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Captainrich
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Hillsmen at Dec 14, 2011 7:40:58 PM]
[Dec 14, 2011 7:37:25 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Chavez67

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Re: Give the (meta) game back to the players. Reply to this Post
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So lets take the poker discussion sideways and look at it from OOO's point of view. The main problem with removal of 200k poker is 200k poker is probably YPP's largest single revenue stream. Step back and look at the total dynamic. OOO is selling one thing - Doubloons.

(skipping the subscription talk entirely, since green oceans are what pays the bills, not blue oceans)

Where do the doubloons come from?

FreeplayJoe jobs in rich expensive blockade, earns 10k, spends half of it on clothes/boats and the other half on doubloons in the exchange to deliver those clothes.

FreeplayJoe earns 10k, blows it all on small tables in poker. NoPuzzleSue wins it, goes to a larger table, blows it in poker, is now broke, buys doubloons from OOO, puts them on the exchange for more poe to go back to the smaller table. Wins more of FreeplayJoe's money, repeat. There are a lot of players who do only this. In doing so, they subsidize FreeplayJoe's play style and OOO makes money. They're paying for FreeplayJoe to play.

So who won NoPuzzleSue's money? HighrollerJim did. He plays the 20k tables, wins money there, and carries it up to the 200k tables, where RichguyRicky wins it over time because he's a true poker player, as in Vegas level poker player. HighrollerJim doesn't buy doubloons with cash. Neither does RichguyRicky. They sponge off of the lower tier player's need to play poker. So where does OOO make their money at the top of this pyramid?

Two places. CreditCardChris likes to pretend to be awesome and is willing to spend hundreds of dollars per month to support that image, so he buys a crapton of doubloons, puts them on the exchange, and subsidizes lots of players. His money also ends up in the hands of RichguyRicky. And if RichguyRicky happens to decide he wants, oh, Admiral Island on Sage, he carves off 50 million poe, hands it to a king, and says "make me governor." The king paywars a blockade and Ricky gets his MegaTrinket. The blockade, then, becomes the other doubloon source - the other revenue stream for OOO. There's delivery fees for the boats, for the cannonballs, and for the rum, and then there's the delivery fees for all the stuff that the jobbers go out and buy with the poe they earned jobbing in the blockade. Blockades are the only "Trickle Down" mechanic whereby poe is transferred from RichguyRicky to FreeplayJoe, and FreeplayJoe is the primary doubloon sink.

So if OOO wants to make more real money, selling doubloons, they need to do one of two things:

1) Introduce a new doubloon sink for 200k poker, or
2) Somehow encourage more rich pokerers to fund blockades more often, to trickle more poe down to Joe.

What if, for instance, there was a new "1%er" badge that was required for 200k poker, that cost something gaudy like 100 doubloons? And anyone who's a governor of an island got their 1%er badge for free?

That would serve both. It would create a new revenue stream for OOO direct from the guys who can pay it, and would also create an incentive for more frequent blockades, funneling more poe back to Joe to get burned on doubloon delivery fees.

I so wish I worked for OOO. I have the coolest damn ideas.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Chavez67 at Dec 15, 2011 7:57:04 AM]
[Dec 15, 2011 7:54:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dylan

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Re: Give the (meta) game back to the players. Reply to this Post
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I have the coolest damn ideas.


True Chavez, although when I rewatch Narnia tomorrow, one of the characters has cooler damming ideas, me old hydrologist, and the antagonist has even colder damning ideas, involving a bit of the old magic (she lacks a spell checker, as LANs how?)

As to the old hydroponist in this thread, I have no idea if he speculated to accumulate, but I highly doubt he ran his plant at a loss. I hope he likes your thinking out of the box, although in all honesty I can't see it flying with OOO, old chum.
[Dec 15, 2011 12:21:24 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Hillsmen

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Re: Give the (meta) game back to the players. Reply to this Post
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What if, for instance, there was a new "1%er" badge that was required for 200k poker, that cost something gaudy like 100 doubloons? And anyone who's a governor of an island got their 1%er badge for free?


There will still be mass amounts of people buying the badge and pokering all day everyday. It will get rid of the casual players, but on Viridian there has to be at least 100 people it will not stop at all. They play poker to buy fams, and just for the lulz of having 20mil. Still, it will help because the poorer poker players who go broke will just be forced to either buy some doubs from OOO or jump on a ship.
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[Dec 15, 2011 12:29:25 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Chavez67

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Re: Give the (meta) game back to the players. Reply to this Post
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What if, for instance, there was a new "1%er" badge that was required for 200k poker, that cost something gaudy like 100 doubloons? And anyone who's a governor of an island got their 1%er badge for free?


There will still be mass amounts of people buying the badge and pokering all day everyday.


Win for OOO.

 
It will get rid of the casual players, but on Viridian there has to be at least 100 people it will not stop at all.


So you dial the doub cost up until having a governor's deed is worth the cost of a blockade, because it saves you from having to buy the badge. It reincorporates the Poker guys into the Social game, since they have an incentive and a motivation to fund blockades, fueling the trickle down effect through jobber pay.
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I did it.
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[Dec 15, 2011 12:45:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Hillsmen

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I am not saying it is a bad idea, I in fact like it. It just won't happen because it is shown when people make suggestions about limiting or removing parts of SMH and Poker it is in one ear and out the other at OOO.
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[Dec 15, 2011 12:49:01 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
scupperer

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Re: Give the (meta) game back to the players. Reply to this Post
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As to the old hydroponist in this thread, I have no idea if he speculated to accumulate, but I highly doubt he ran his plant at a loss. I hope he likes your thinking out of the box, although in all honesty I can't see it flying with OOO, old chum.


The only problem with C's idea is that it'll just further stratify the mega-rich, and without addressing anything else in the game, will give them more poe-wer. Yes, OOO might squeeze a few more dubs out of the rock that way, but the rock will stop growing moss.

I've decided, pending OM approval on the ethics and morality of bending the unwritten nuisance blockade rule, to simply enact how I want to see blockades changed, regardless of whether OOO ever gets around to coding anything or not.

Idea participation on structuring it is more than welcome. Helping with prizes and the actual implementation is extremely welcome, but no use asking until it's approved and ready to roll. I've been gone awhile, so my "feel" for how many jobbers are available each week, ship costs, prize expectations and such isn't back up to speed. Other details and potential pitfalls may have eluded me as well.
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I believe that we are all, openly or secretly, struggling against one or another kind of nihilism. - Ellen Willis
[Dec 15, 2011 1:51:21 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.scupperer.com [Link]  Go to top 
Pauling

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Re: Give the (meta) game back to the players. Reply to this Post
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As I recall, doub prices plummeted the instant poker was released. Under Chavez's system, the net effect would be to increase demand for doubs, and decrease demand for large liquid sums of PoE.

I don't know what the economic effects would be, other than to say "dramatic".

Scupperer's idea for a blockading league looks interesting, though: it's a positive, player-driven approach to actively taking back the meta game (instead of just reminiscing about the old days). I encourage people to go read and contribute to that thread.
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[Dec 15, 2011 4:01:09 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Hillsmen

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I do not think redistributing wealth throughout the ocean is good really. I think less wealth overall is good. And when I say that I mean, the poor get poorer, and the richer players get poorer. The game ran a lot better when overall players had less money because they generally worked together to build up their small fortunes of poe. Plus less players having money would take down the amount of super spammed shoppes and stalls on Viridian. And we will not have shoppes and fams worth basically next to nothing. And we will not have mass amounts of pillage and SMH jobbing at one time(the problem of having way too many navers compared to jobbers).
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Captainrich
[Dec 15, 2011 5:48:44 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
marundel

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By its very nature, setting a pay cap is the same as setting a hard price... everyone will expect to pay the maximum. It's the same as having a speed limit on the highway, and all the other drivers get pissed when one guy in the right lane is going 5 MPH slower than the upper limit. This is why pay caps are a bad idea.

People like to play the game they want to play when they log on. Telling someone who wants to play in a blockade that he can't because the board is at its maximum number is just as bad as telling someone they have to wait 2 hours to load a WF for a flotilla when there are only 40 people logged in. For the same reason that unlimited swabbies is a good idea, personnel caps for blockades are a bad idea.

Strategy is part of the game. This includes ship mix, alliances and business deals with other players/crews/flags, and such things as knowing how and when to be a "spoiler". Taking these things away from a flag just because they are attacking an outpost or medium island actually detracts from game play rather than enhancing it. In addition, using this as an argument that they need to get their blockade fame up before attacking a large is a false argument - if they can't use these strategies on smaller islands, how can they learn to use them effectively? This is why different rules for different sized islands is a bad idea.

Impermanence - yes, this has a place in Y!PP. However, up to now the majority of suggestions have been based on destroying or taking away something earned. I've played many games where you lose your "permanent" stuff if your account goes dormant for an extended period of time (anywhere from 30 days to 2 years), and never had an issue with that. However, if an active player is constantly losing "earned" assets to random actions, he/she will quickly become disenamored of the gameplay. For this reason, randomly trashing active player assets just to free up real estate is a bad idea.

I've said it a dozen times before, and I'll repeat it here. I don't play Y!PP for the social interaction. I do enjoy the social interaction, but I play the game for the challenges of setting goals and achieving them. I solo sail a lot - pillaging, commod running, and route memming. I like to bnav in flotillas, but I hate the chore of jobbing for hours to get 20 people on a WB (when I'd really prefer 50 bots on a WF). I merchant. When I get bored, I sit online and chat with crew mates, flag mates, and hearties... but I don't log in and spend 3 hours a night in game just to chat with hearties. I started playing other games where social interaction is also encouraged - but not required - where I can take out a GF solo and have a modicum of success on my chosen adventure. These other games appeal to me for that reason. This is why unlimited swabbies is a good idea.

Playing with people should be more profitable than playing solo. This is why open jobbing during battle is a good idea.

I for one would like to see more carousing games. Carousing is a great activity when I log on and only have 30 minutes to play. I don't believe that high stakes poker should be taken out of the game - at least not under the current poker system. I believe that poker as it is should be completely removed from Y!PP and replaced with tournament poker. After all, Hearts and Spades require four players to get started, and if you pull out before the end of the game, you lose automatically. You also can't come and go in the middle of the game. Poker should be the same. The table owner sets up the number of chairs (min 2, max 6) and the buy-in amount. When the seats are full, the game starts. Anyone leaving prior to the end of the game loses automatically (their stack dumping into the pot.) Set it so the game gives a 5 minute break every 30 minutes, with the blinds and ante increasing after each break. If a player loses their stake, they are knocked off the table and can't re-enter that game (maybe allow one rebuy for half the original buy-in amount - a la James Bond's Casino Royale.) Each game can be set up so it's winner take all or proportional take based on when a player is knocked out (playing with chips rather than raw PoE.) This is what will allow poker to continue in the game for those who enjoy it, while limiting the effect it has on the game as a wealth concentrator. It'll stop the constant "buy-in, all-in" players, prevent banking, and make high stakes tables less likely (as they would take forever to finish play.)

Just my 98 cents...
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[Dec 15, 2011 10:27:33 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.thehomebrewstore.com    meadbrewer [Link]  Go to top 
scupperer

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@Marundel: I love the post!

However, I'd like to point out the simple contradiction between your gaming views on blockades and poker. Read the two paragraphs right next to each other, and you'll see what I mean.

I'd like to see blockades fixed similar to how you want to see poker fixed. My ideas are not aimed at keeping people "out" of the blockade game. They're aimed at creating more blockade tables, and thus, more opportunity to be "in" the game.

I want to see a situation where if you log on and find you can't play in a specific blockade because the board is full, your desire is not to log out frustrated, but to say - well, hell, if *they* can fill the blockade board and there are still free jobbers, then so can my flag! Let's plan one for next week! Moooore blockades!
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I believe that we are all, openly or secretly, struggling against one or another kind of nihilism. - Ellen Willis
[Dec 16, 2011 4:47:34 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.scupperer.com [Link]  Go to top 
marundel

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@Marundel: I love the post!

However, I'd like to point out the simple contradiction between your gaming views on blockades and poker. Read the two paragraphs right next to each other, and you'll see what I mean.

I'd like to see blockades fixed similar to how you want to see poker fixed. My ideas are not aimed at keeping people "out" of the blockade game. They're aimed at creating more blockade tables, and thus, more opportunity to be "in" the game.

I want to see a situation where if you log on and find you can't play in a specific blockade because the board is full, your desire is not to log out frustrated, but to say - well, hell, if *they* can fill the blockade board and there are still free jobbers, then so can my flag! Let's plan one for next week! Moooore blockades!

Not a parallel thouht though. With a game table, if I log in and want to play the game, and the table is full, I can open a new one now - when I want to play. If I log in wanting to play in the blockade, and the board is full, and I have to say "woo hoo - I can blockade next week", I'm much more likely to go away frustrated than to plan ahead - especially if I just wanted to job in - not run - the blockade.
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[Dec 16, 2011 6:41:04 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.thehomebrewstore.com    meadbrewer [Link]  Go to top 
scupperer

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Not a parallel thouht though. With a game table, if I log in and want to play the game, and the table is full, I can open a new one now - when I want to play. If I log in wanting to play in the blockade, and the board is full, and I have to say "woo hoo - I can blockade next week", I'm much more likely to go away frustrated than to plan ahead - especially if I just wanted to job in - not run - the blockade.


One of the things keeping more blockades from happening is, indeed, a parallel to the poker problem:
 
It'll stop the constant "buy-in, all-in" players, prevent banking, and make high stakes tables less likely

Every blockade is a buy-in, all-in proposition for flags. Every blockade is a high stakes table. There are no low-stakes blockades.

If there were low-stake blockades, there would be more happening than there are free jobbers available, which is a greater ideal than being forced to compete for *all* of the jobbers. I think the frustration of not fitting in a blockade is a better frustration than few blockades, and a very much better frustration than gathering up millions in poe, ships, stock and failing miserably because all the jobbers went to the other side because of some last-minute political misstep or rich jerk who came in at the last minute paying twice what you can afford.

The basic problem is the same, even if the arrows are pointing in different directions as to solution.
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I believe that we are all, openly or secretly, struggling against one or another kind of nihilism. - Ellen Willis
[Dec 16, 2011 6:56:00 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.scupperer.com [Link]  Go to top 
pn55406

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I think that most everyone would agree that there is a great deal of wasted time in Puzzle Pirates, and that taking procedures to change the game and combat that one aspect would drastically improve it

Whether or not the changes be to the number of swabbies you can hire or the difficulty of your opponents.... That can be discussed more later but I would like to see OOO's say something about how they will start implementing a similar goal. They have their hands full now with the oceans merging, but a statement would be nice.
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[Dec 16, 2011 8:55:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Hillsmen

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Scupp, I know you mean well in talking about the many problems of large tables, but OOO isn't going to do anything about it unless we bitch like mad for months. Considering people have been complaining for years...they will not do anything.

Carousel games were so much better when there wasn't a stupid badge...same with labor. Don't blame them for implementing it at all though.
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marundel

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One of the things keeping more blockades from happening is, indeed, a parallel to the poker problem:
 
It'll stop the constant "buy-in, all-in" players, prevent banking, and make high stakes tables less likely

Every blockade is a buy-in, all-in proposition for flags. Every blockade is a high stakes table. There are no low-stakes blockades.

If there were low-stake blockades, there would be more happening than there are free jobbers available, which is a greater ideal than being forced to compete for *all* of the jobbers. I think the frustration of not fitting in a blockade is a better frustration than few blockades, and a very much better frustration than gathering up millions in poe, ships, stock and failing miserably because all the jobbers went to the other side because of some last-minute political misstep or rich jerk who came in at the last minute paying twice what you can afford.

The basic problem is the same, even if the arrows are pointing in different directions as to solution.

I disagree with your fundamental presupposition, and that is the sticking point between us - you apparently disagree with mine. You presuppose that limiting blockade mechanics on lesser islands will inspire smaller/poorer flags to participate. I disagree. I presuppose that limiting blockade mechanics on lesser islands will prevent a number of people from participating in 2/3 of all blockades. You disagree.

Blockades are definitely not "buy-in, all-in" propositions. While it is true that a smaller flag will have less organic help, and a poorer flag will have difficulty in a price war, this is not the cornerstone of planning a blockade. Any flag of any size can set a goal to blockade any island; then begin tailoring their flag activities for maximum flag-fund profit, maximum ship production/purchase, and maximum inventory creation. It doesn't take that long if you focus on that. I've heard enough players say that a single player can raise a quarter million a month on a subscription ocean. I personally have raised more than 100K in a month, and that was only logging on 3-4 days a week for a few hours at a time. Imagine a crew of 10 or a flag of 30 doing the same thing... Even a small flag could raise the cost of a 5-round blockade in as little as 3-4 months - less if they put aside things like buying clothes, wagering at the tables, or hosting tournaments. At its lowest population and activity levels, my flag was still putting out a fully stocked war frigate every 12 days. At its highest levels, we were doing the same every 2-3 days. We haven't had to do a flag fundraiser in over a year, and we still have enough cash on hand to fight multiple high-paying blockades over a very short period of time - not even counting on the members who would gladly throw their personal fortunes into the mix if necessary.

Knowing all of that, the idea of limiting game play for a significant percentage of the ocean so that a small flag doesn't have to go through the actual planning, strategizing, and preparation for a blockade just makes no logical sense. If there was ever an opportunity for team-play and team goal-setting, preparing for a blockade under the current rules is it.
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Blockades are definitely not "buy-in, all-in" propositions.

You then go on to describe how "anyone" can do it, but only if they just abandon all other interests in the game, work their little hearts out for 3 months straight, convince all of their friends to do the exact same thing, and then jump into it head first, assuming they already know everything there is to know about planning, organizing, and running a blockade open to the whole ocean, because even though they've never done it as a flag before - they've seen blockades and helped their friends, and it surely can't be that hard. Because, on the scale blockades are, 1 WF every 3 days means we could blockade maybe once every 3 or 4 months, if we try really really hard, because last time the ally we helped lost over 30 ships in the 9999 sinking cade that lasted 5 rounds and cost over 40 million poe, and three people quit the game in frustration and our poker backer said we sucked and moved to another flag.

But, we don't want to *limit* everyone else's fun. Heaven forbid.

Yes, we disagree entirely on the premise.

* But if we did agree, then our solutions are still similar.

 
Scupp, I know you mean well in talking about the many problems of large tables, but OOO isn't going to do anything about it unless we bitch like mad for months. Considering people have been complaining for years...they will not do anything.


I think I can, I think I can, I think I can
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I believe that we are all, openly or secretly, struggling against one or another kind of nihilism. - Ellen Willis
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by scupperer at Dec 16, 2011 1:54:53 PM]
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Chiptharip

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Edit: Sniped by Scup, who said it better.

Maur- I think that's the point you're missing but still referencing. A small flag has to grind for hundreds of hours with maximum sacrifice to reach a blockade board where, depending on the situation, they could have their months of grind wiped by a single individual's daily poker income. There's a massive disparity in time/effort investment required under the current system, to the point that the mere acknowledgement of the disparity is enough to drive people away from the game.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Chiptharip at Dec 16, 2011 2:04:53 PM]
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Dylan

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Maur- I think that's the point you're missing but still referencing.


What is perhaps more important is that this is NOT GD, but rather Parley.

The ideas being thrown around are not to be implemented by OOO, but rather as part of the social puzzle.

I would like to see flags that have no blockade experience compete on a level playing field, with an understanding that certain blockades are not to be griefed. I'd also like to see some really hard-fought blockades between the elites of various oceans contested. And also, of course, for islands to be contested in time-honoured fashion.

We don't need GD for that. The players can do it, perhaps with a tiny bit of help from the devs.
[Dec 16, 2011 2:30:55 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Hillsmen

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I can testify to the grinding. My old flag had near 150-200 people in it for the longest time but very very slowly made poe to blockade with, because most people were pillagers. It took absolutely forever to gain enough poe to drop on a island bigger than a outpost(already had ships). Poker made that a bit easier because I could simply throw in 200k+ a day while we may make 200k a month from the other members of the flag.
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Captainrich
[Dec 16, 2011 4:58:43 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
AraHurricane

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I can testify to the grinding. My old flag had near 150-200 people in it for the longest time but very very slowly made poe to blockade with, because most people were pillagers. It took absolutely forever to gain enough poe to drop on a island bigger than a outpost(already had ships). Poker made that a bit easier because I could simply throw in 200k+ a day while we may make 200k a month from the other members of the flag.


You seriously telling me that with 150-200 players pillaging you only made 200k a month? O.O
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Arakain the Hurricane
[Dec 16, 2011 7:45:00 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
scupperer

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Hey now, no crapping on people in my thread - only pissing contests are allowed!

A flag size of 150-200 is no indication of how many are active at any time, nor did he mention what ocean it was on, or what time frame in game development - it's also entirely irrelevant to the discussion.
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I believe that we are all, openly or secretly, struggling against one or another kind of nihilism. - Ellen Willis
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AraHurricane

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Hey now, no crapping on people in my thread - only pissing contests are allowed!

A flag size of 150-200 is no indication of how many are active at any time, nor did he mention what ocean it was on, or what time frame in game development - it's also entirely irrelevant to the discussion.



Wasn't ment to be crapping on anyone. Only more of a notion to give me more details so I might better understand why he was only making 200k a month. :( I love you Scup.
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Arakain the Hurricane
[Dec 16, 2011 7:56:12 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Hillsmen

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A good 70-80 active. Viridian. Having a large amount of people pillaging doesn't mean they always donate to the cause. Wasn't like everyone wanted to blockade. Or pillage all the time to fund it then blow it in one weekend. Using big tables it is a lot easier to make a few mil in a weekend and throw it all in.
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Captainrich
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For a lot of flags, most of the blockade money comes from just a few of the players with high abilities to generate poe, whether through atlantis nav, Ruby pillages, poker, familiar winning, etc. The majority of the flag doesn't contribute as much, because it's far easier to get a few rich players to donate than a hundred lower income players. Especially when there's only a few nav spots, and only so many people that can be governor/palace manager.
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Culliford on the Cerulean Ocean
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xelto

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For a lot of flags, most of the blockade money comes from just a few of the players with high abilities to generate poe, whether through atlantis nav, Ruby pillages, poker, familiar winning, etc. The majority of the flag doesn't contribute as much, because it's far easier to get a few rich players to donate than a hundred lower income players. Especially when there's only a few nav spots, and only so many people that can be governor/palace manager.

This part right here.

It's not a bad design. In real-life, most of us avoid being an active part of government-- we're considered quite civic-minded if we actually think about how and for who to vote before doing so (and our "how and for who" is more than just reading yard signs). Most players in YPP would not want to be an active part of a government, nor would they want to be a full-fledged part of the blockade team if they truly realized how much work goes into a full six-hour blockade.

If you want the rank-and-file to care, OOO has to include more benefits for the rank-and-file of owning an island-- but at the same time, those benefits have to be minor enough that island-owning flags don't have an automatic advantage from people joining to get those benefits (IE, owning an island doesn't essentially mean that nobody else can get it from you because everyone wants to be part of the home team). It's a very tricky balance, and I don't know if it's even possible. But I think they have more important things to worry about first.
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Gurndigarn on Emerald Ocean
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[Dec 17, 2011 4:51:57 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
scupperer

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(emphasis mine)
 
I would like to see flags that have no blockade experience compete on a level playing field , with an understanding that certain blockades are not to be griefed. I'd also like to see some really hard-fought blockades between the elites of various oceans contested. And also, of course, for islands to be contested in time-honoured fashion.

We don't need GD for that. The players can do it, perhaps with a tiny bit of help from the devs.


Yes, this.

In the absence of developer assistance, this is all that can be worked towards by the player base.
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I believe that we are all, openly or secretly, struggling against one or another kind of nihilism. - Ellen Willis
[Dec 17, 2011 7:40:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.scupperer.com [Link]  Go to top 
Hillsmen

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Viridian has been working to put people on a level playing field like trying to keep jobbing even which normally keeps the pay fairly low but encourages more people to blockade. This is bit different than the last few years which is outjob or paywar to win. Blockading just for fun has seem to gone up a lot rather than blockade for the island. Of course, this only implies for the outpost mainly. People still treat certain islands like its RAWRGGG my island!!
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Captainrich
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