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Chiptharip

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Re: Terra Blockade Jan.-21, 2012

 
(hello Chip and your made up rules)


Fame evasion isn't a made up rule; if it were, then Cleaver and Artemis wouldn't explicitly forbid it. Players wouldn't get banned and lose their islands on account of it, if it was indeed made up. Don't be bitter because your lack of understanding of the game's rules and mechanics was exposed.

As Cleaver says:here :
 
'Hiring' Flags to Blockade 'On Behalf Of' Another Flag is Discouraged and Not Supported

By 'Discouraged' I mean that it is not a valid legal tactic, as it is clearly a method to circumvent the intention of the Fame mechanics. We may reprimand leaders who use this technique, so please don't
.

Now, Stone Soup was founded in November of 2011, with Wend leaving Legacy then. I'll ignore the November attack of Terra because obviously I don't have any logs to demonstrate intentions regarding Terra's governance.

However, the Terra BK was scuttled in Dec 2011, with Wend defending from Stone Soup. The Legacy banner and ability to defend the island was used on behalf of Stone Soup, who did not have the fame to hold Terra before the scuttle. The Stone Soup defense effectively acted as the "transfer" or "purchase" (for lack of better words). Legacy was not going to defend, so Wend, who wanted Terra, defended through Legacy because of Stone Soup's inability to capture Terra, due to fame mechanics, at a future time. Wend/Morb's own admission last week that Legacy retains Terra due to "fame reasons" further solidifies this point.

Sorry, these are not made up rules. Using another flag to blockade because the actual "owning flag" does not have requisite fame is explicitly against the game's rules. Now, judgement of this rule is tricky because Cleaver's comments came before BK blockades and the like; however, the point remains - Legacy retained Terra because Terra's owner did not have the fame to hold it himself. That is fame evasion, as defined by the game's CREATOR

Edit: Not that I really care or anyone will (or should) get punished for this, but plugging your ears and going "LALALALLALA FAKE" is silly.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Chiptharip at Jan 23, 2012 4:01:07 PM]
[Jan 23, 2012 3:47:04 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Hillsmen

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Re: Terra Blockade Jan.-21, 2012

Yeah nothing would be done Chip unless they came out and said, Stone Soup defended for us. The point still stands though.
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Captainrich

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[Jan 23, 2012 4:02:23 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LunEnvoy

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Re: Terra Blockade Jan.-21, 2012

See Avi. I told you you should scuttle and deal with the bs instead of holding it until wend could get his hands on it or someone else took it in a flagsit. But no you had to not scuttle and look, now youre gettin heat for scuttling AND not giving away the island. Shoulda listeneddd

Theres no fame evasion. Legacy no want terra. Instead of scuttling or creating an event or transferring, wend said he wanted it. So, legacy just held on to it. when wends flag is capable, they may have the island (method of transfer irrelevant). Essentially, legacy was just holding an island they didnt plan to defend. If wend wanted to keep terra in a position where he could get it easily, hed have to defend it himself. He wasnt hired.

If I go back to epilogue, and tell flag X that I want their island and they say I can have it when im big enough.... And then when they dont defend it I decide to, am I fame evading?
Um no.

Edit: I dont mean to say I cant see where youre coming from, however its just this particular circumstance seems akin to calling a 3Per a fame evader if they 3P with any sort of political motive.
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LoLune

I'm still just the guard dog. I bite. They shoot.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by LunEnvoy at Jan 23, 2012 7:41:55 PM]
[Jan 23, 2012 4:52:33 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Hazarath

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Re: Terra Blockade Jan.-21, 2012

The problem with all of that, Chip, is that Legacy never blockaded on behalf of Stone Soup. Not once.
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Morbuzaan

I support PvP in sinking environments.

Cremate wrote: 
Cremate tells ye, "Anyway I have hockey to watch"

[Jan 23, 2012 9:06:09 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Elliptic

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Re: Terra Blockade Jan.-21, 2012

Hillsmen wrote: 
Yeah nothing would be done Chip unless they came out and said, Stone Soup defended for us. The point still stands though.

Stone Soup did defend Terra from the Brigand King. Stone Soup did keep Terra nominally Legacy's. It's in the first post of this thread.

Chiptharip wrote: 
Players wouldn't get banned and lose their islands on account of it, if it was indeed made up.

It would be better to separate out getting banned and losing islands, since getting banned is much more serious. Who specifically has been banned for Fame specifically?

Chiptharip wrote: 
Now, Stone Soup was founded in November of 2011, with Wend leaving Legacy then.

Stone Soup was founded in November. I left Legacy on 10/4/2011 at 10:43:29 PDT.

Chiptharip wrote: 
The Stone Soup defense effectively acted as the "transfer" or "purchase" (for lack of better words).

"Purchase"? You could have left it at "transfer", since a purchase would involve a transfer. You went further and made an insinuation "for lack of better words".



In the beginning, there was Terra. I was made governor of Terra as a joke, quite unaware of my investiture. I didn't find out I had become a governor till a few days after. I didn't properly own or control anything at that time. The island had been scuttled at this point and I learned that Legacy did not plan to defend. So I asked if they would give me control of Terra if I fought off the Brigand King. I should have gotten an OM's opinion.

My notion was that if Terra was going to be at 100% taxes over the holidays, the money may as well go towards some events, rather than just being lost to a BK or a player pirate flag with its pirate players. Legacy agreed to give me control, on the condition that I defended the island; Legacy thought at the time there could well be an attack the following week before the holidays. So the BK was defeated by Stone Soup, from Stone Soup. (Like in the first post here.) I had already been made governor as a joke, so my taking control was marked just by the palace being emptied. The next week, as it tuned out, saw no attack. I assumed anyone interested in Terra had read this thread.

I didn't know what I thought should be done with Terra after the holiday break at the time. There had been one weekend between the BK blockade and the beginning of the no-blockades holiday period and I thought I'd figure it out over the holidays. I considered my options as being between getting Terra transferred to Stone Soup, getting Legacy to scuttle Terra again, and maybe some kind of event giveaway.

Before then, the merger was announced, along with the month-long moratorium on blockades. I didn't like the idea of a flag getting a heap of money from Terra from that without any possibility of having to do anything. So I announced that I planned to defend Terra at least until the merger was done. I thought the merger would happen sometime in early January and I'd decide what to do during the blockade downtime.

It didn't happen in early January. I ought to have transferred immediately after the holidays, then it wouldn't have mattered when the merger came. After the events, I was further confirmed in my delusion that Stone Soup at Terra was common knowledge. When Knockout dropped last weekend, I told Cairna that I was in control there and Terra was never going to have been scuttled. Cairna told me that KO would not be contesting.

Sverdrup and I talked about an hour and a half before the Terra blockade started. I told Sverdrup that he could attack Terra and make someone in his flag governor and that I would support him. I wanted him to attack because it was fast way of resolving the Terra situation. I figured if Stone Soup got sufficient Fame afterwards, then whatever, but that it was better to remove uncertainty about Terra's ownership sooner rather than later. I talked to Sverdrup about Terra, but didn't demand any guarantees for my support.

About two minutes before Round Two started, Avienda asked, "Mind if we make Terra sinking?" Less than half a minute later, I replied with, "Go." Avienda didn't know that Stone Soup was so involved at Terra and I didn't know she didn't know. My snap judgement was Legacy wanted to make Labyrinth Moors sinking, because of the timing and how Avienda had come right out with the question. I gave my okay quickly because I didn't want Terra to restrict them, as I considered that to be my own problem. I figured they wanted war before Round Two began and time for that was short, so I didn't ask any questions. I told Sverdrup that Round Two might be sinking.

When I saw that Legacy had gone to war with Heisenberg's Uncertainty, I realized I had misunderstood. I had got the impression from speaking to Sverdrup that he wasn't interested in a war with Legacy, so I asked Avienda to offer a truce, in line with Terra having been Stone Soup's. Avienda said that Legacy would accept a truce from Heisenberg's Uncertainty. I appreciated this, in light of everything. I don't know what passed between Sverdrup and Avienda, but I looked on the truce as a fix to treat Terra as having been Stone Soup's since the BK blockade.

I'd like to note that these are my own thoughts. I've tried to include everything relevant. We've seen in the above how I got things wrong about what people were thinking and doing and I don't mean to prejudice anyone else's words: I might well have gotten yet more things wrong. Finally, I apologize to everyone for coasting on my good intentions. It would have been far better for all if I'd taken a more considered approach.

Lima will see event blockades which will use up the remaining island income I have.

edit: typo
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"That is not how the question frames itself."

Wend, royal archophobe
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Elliptic at Jan 23, 2012 10:07:47 PM]
[Jan 23, 2012 10:02:28 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Chiptharip

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Re: Terra Blockade Jan.-21, 2012

 
Chiptharip wrote: 
Players wouldn't get banned and lose their islands on account of it, if it was indeed made up.

It would be better to separate out getting banned and losing islands, since getting banned is much more serious. Who specifically has been banned for Fame specifically?


The issue is murky; however, there is precedent for calling this fame evasion.

Robertdonald was banned.

Jacktheblack was fined 2Million PoE (and the proxy flag 2mil also) later and temp banned for using a proxy flag attack; he did not retain governorship of the island in the case of the fining.

Go With the Flow posted intent to blockade an island (Kent) on Sage. They didn't have the fame come drop time, so their ally dropped. GWTF ran the blockade, then retained governorship while their ally held the island. Their ally then posted intent to transfer the island once GWTF had requisite fame. The OMs denied this transfer, required a member of the allied flag to be appointed governor (I think, can't remember), and required GWTF to drop a chest on Kent and contest an attack if they wished to hold the island.


 
Chiptharip wrote: 
The Stone Soup defense effectively acted as the "transfer" or "purchase" (for lack of better words).

"Purchase"? You could have left it at "transfer", since a purchase would involve a transfer. You went further and made an insinuation "for lack of better words".


Its tricky terminology. I suppose 'sink' or 'transfer fee' would have been a better word.

Not taking the time to create a flag able to attack and instead being responsible for a proxy flag's upkeep of the island (both blockades and otherwise) is pretty "islands are trinkets" behavior, but Terra was acting as a PoE redistribution method, rather than a personal thing, so that doesn't really apply.

That said, the point is pretty moot now that HU controls the island. While I vehemently disagree with the action (on basis that it undermines the original design* of islands being a team objective), there wasn't any mal intent involved in the whole situation. Feel free to have the last word.

*Yes, I realize fame was implemented after blockades were first introduced. Fame is a tricky subject, personally. I appreciate the requirement for blockades being a team effort. Perhaps when it was much, much more difficult if not impossible to pay your opponent off the board, fame could be considered goofy. However, it really is a necessity now.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Chiptharip at Jan 23, 2012 11:02:53 PM]
[Jan 23, 2012 10:57:11 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
shadymermady

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Re: Terra Blockade Jan.-21, 2012

I think its a shame that Wend has come under fire with all this. I don't know why it was so hard for people to see what was going on.. i mean, he has posted enough event intents etc and explained that he was using the profit from the island to fund them, heeps of times. He has also stated that he was opperating seperately from legacy which i had no reason not to believe. He is an approachable guy, i'm sure a /tell would have solved most questions.

I understand that there may have been some cause for accusations of breaking the ToS but i also think that there is room in this and most other games for rule bending without anyone getting hurt. Do i think he should have just gotten off his ass and got the fame he needed for a transfer? sure i do, but he was not acting against the spirit of the game. He was however contributing to the ocean more then alot of the people that have bitched on this topic.

@ Wend - Thanks for trying to bring some fun into the game for both new and established flags/individual crews. I hope the tarting you have recieved for this hasn't left a bitter taste and that you continue what you started. It's rare to see players going out of their way to organise activity without some underlying goal of self gain. I think people have short memories and forget that you have a long history with setting up ocean events funded with your own poe.
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Shadymermady - Meridian
Shadeh/Betty - Emerald

Queen of Annunaki

Crip tells ye, "bout to turn on my balls warmer.."
[Jan 24, 2012 7:37:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Ezder

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Re: Terra Blockade Jan.-21, 2012

Shady wrote: 
I think its a shame that Wend has come under fire with all this. I don't know why it was so hard for people to see what was going on.. i mean, he has posted enough event intents etc and explained that he was using the profit from the island to fund them, heeps of times. He has also stated that he was opperating seperately from legacy which i had no reason not to believe. He is an approachable guy, i'm sure a /tell would have solved most questions.

I understand that there may have been some cause for accusations of breaking the ToS but i also think that there is room in this and most other games for rule bending without anyone getting hurt. Do i think he should have just gotten off his ass and got the fame he needed for a transfer? sure i do, but he was not acting against the spirit of the game. He was however contributing to the ocean more then alot of the people that have bitched on this topic.

@ Wend - Thanks for trying to bring some fun into the game for both new and established flags/individual crews. I hope the tarting you have recieved for this hasn't left a bitter taste and that you continue what you started. It's rare to see players going out of their way to organise activity without some underlying goal of self gain. I think people have short memories and forget that you have a long history with setting up ocean events funded with your own poe.

For once, I can agree with every word you wrote in this post.
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Avienda
Nightmare/Legacy

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Qvintvs flag royalty chats, "I won't play for that much longer and when I quit, my pirate's dead body will be sent out at sea on a burning ship and let's face it, you will be on that ship as well.
[Jan 24, 2012 7:42:35 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sverdrup

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Re: Terra Blockade Jan.-21, 2012

EDIT: Redacted. Fun is elsewhere ;-)
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Sverdrup, CPTN of Schroedinger's Cat, Prince of Heisenberg's Uncertainty, Meridian
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Sverdrup at Jan 24, 2012 9:43:14 PM]
[Jan 24, 2012 9:14:51 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Fresnokush

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Re: Terra Blockade Jan.-21, 2012

 
You are not fun.


Where was this chick when I was running flags? I can only the imagine the good-cop-bad-cop banter that would run wild on Parley.
She might not be fun, but I've always had particular fondness for people who could bore a bureaucrat into submission.
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Twiggy is dead.
He flies spaceships now.
Blame Three Rings.

"Among creatures born into chaos, a majority will imagine an order,
a minority will question the order, and the rest will be pronounced insane."

[Jan 24, 2012 9:31:34 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Elliptic

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Re: Terra Blockade Jan.-21, 2012

Replying to Chiptharip, I've no quibbles with saying Fame requires governors and flags to match. It was whether or not someone has been banned for Fame evasion before that I was asking about. I am pretty sure the trigger for Robertdonald's ban was not Fame but the no-show the week prior to his second win - Jorvik VIII, not IX. (Cleaver's posts I'm basing this on: 1, 2) There has been a fine, but I'm not so sure it can be said there has been a ban for Fame evasion.

I don't really agree that Fame makes blockading a team effort. However, just that a difference of opinion can exist over this is another reason why I should've sorted things out.



Chiptharip wrote: 
Elliptic wrote: 
Chiptharip wrote: 
The Stone Soup defense effectively acted as the "transfer" or "purchase" (for lack of better words).

"Purchase"? You could have left it at "transfer", since a purchase would involve a transfer. You went further and made an insinuation "for lack of better words".


Its tricky terminology. I suppose 'sink' or 'transfer fee' would have been a better word.

Thanks for clarifying. I had seen a reading where it looked like I could've bought the island from Legacy.
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"That is not how the question frames itself."

Wend, royal archophobe
[Jan 26, 2012 6:18:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Fresnokush

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Re: Terra Blockade Jan.-21, 2012

 
I am pretty sure the trigger for Robertdonald's ban was not Fame but the no-show the week prior to his second win


It was a combination of things. Back then fame was all but an afterthought. People didn't really include it in their planning, because if a flag had the resources and adequate members for a 12-round blockade, chances are they had the fame too. By the time Jorvik 8 rolled around blockades had been slimmed down to a 5-round format, but the mindset hadn't changed. Flags were still prepared for a long ass battle even though it was no longer necessary.
----------------------------------------
Twiggy is dead.
He flies spaceships now.
Blame Three Rings.

"Among creatures born into chaos, a majority will imagine an order,
a minority will question the order, and the rest will be pronounced insane."

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[Edit 3 times, last edit by Fresnokush at Jan 26, 2012 9:37:08 AM]
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Ezder

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Re: Terra Blockade Jan.-21, 2012

I sent a petition about this "fame evasion issue" when it was first brought up, and today, I actually got an answer to it.

I won't quote the petition as such without permission from the OM in question to do so, but he stated that no rules had been broken at Terra, and that there was no problem.

So, Chip and the rest of you, you can scratch that one.
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Avienda
Nightmare/Legacy

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Qvintvs flag royalty chats, "I won't play for that much longer and when I quit, my pirate's dead body will be sent out at sea on a burning ship and let's face it, you will be on that ship as well.
[Jan 31, 2012 6:17:24 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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