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Caribastos4

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Mala's Kade Scene

My goal in creating this thread is to try to start a discussion about how we might work together to make Mala's blockade scene more active.

It's often assumed that offering a 'friendly kade' (agree on pay, time, and sinkiness) will promote kading. I'd like to suggest that that may not be true. While blockading is fun in and of itself, and though it's true that a healthy ocean should have a reasonably active kade scene, it does matter who wins. The victorious flag may not be able to recoup all of the poe spent on winning and retaining control of the island, but that flag will at least cover some of those costs. In addition, there's some non-monetary value to shaping the structure of an island as well as the satisfaction of winning. No flag has an endless supply of poe, and so no flag can sustain kade activity if it doesn't win at least a decent percentage of the time. Even 'friendly kades' aren't cheap.

All of that is to say that flags generally won't (and if they do, they won't be able to sustain kade activity) enter kades they can't reasonably expect to win. And while a 'friendly kade' is cheaper than a sinky kade without a paycap, the 'friendly kade' settings do tend to favor one party over another. Given how Mala's population is split into alliance rings, jobber support for the two parties in a kade is likely to be fairly lopsided if the parties agree to a paycap. In an 'unfriendly' kade, the side with lower on-ocean jobber support could hope to even things out by raising pay to attract neutral on-ocean jobbers and off-ocean folks as well. But agreeing to a paycap prevents them from doing so. So in the end, while a single friendly kade may be within the budget of a smaller flag, since that flag wouldn't have a real shot at winning they'd have a very hard time sustaining kade activity.

Unfortunately, I'm not really sure what else can be done to actually encourage kading. I know this post has been long (sorry about that), but I'm hoping that if you made it this far you're willing to throw out some thoughts, either about what I've just said or ideas for how to improve the situation.
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Jdilla on Emerald and Meridian.

Stroma says, "i hate you"
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Caribastos4 at Nov 23, 2011 4:56:34 AM]
[Nov 23, 2011 4:26:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Doulber

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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

This is horseshit. No island on Mala ever generates a profit from a blockade. This is just about true on every ocean. There's enough hate on Mala for there to be sinking blockades every weekend. Throw friendliness out the window, just look at the forums.

Mala's dead, it's going to be buried next to Kamuflaro

Edit: Grammar
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Doulber at Nov 23, 2011 9:02:02 AM]
[Nov 23, 2011 9:01:24 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
monstersoda

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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

Pessimism is not a virtue.

In all honesty, there is nothing someone in the established flags can do to promote blockading, which they do not already do. I suppose all I can say is, "Don't expect to win, and you'll have fun."

To borrow from a different game, "Loosing is Fun."

Edit- Yes, islands do not make poe, anywhere, unless you get the inn and build shoppes.
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Emmett
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by monstersoda at Nov 23, 2011 10:16:30 AM]
[Nov 23, 2011 10:15:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Caribastos4

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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

Are you saying that including the cost of gaining and retaining control over an island, a flag can't make a profit? Or that excluding kading costs, islands are a poe sink?

Edit: Alright, maybe that's true. I won't pretend to know much of anything about running islands, but from conversations I've had with people who run islands on Mala and elsewhere the impression I've gotten is that taking kading costs into account you lose poe, but between the kades you do earn some. If that's not the case then I guess some of my initial post is inaccurate.

But either way, I don't see how more sinky kades would help anything. Increasing the costs of kading would only serve to make them less frequent. The question I was trying to raise was, given that I don't think the traditional 'friendly kade' is an effective way to do so, is there a way we can work together to make the kade scene more accessible to less established flags?
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Jdilla on Emerald and Meridian.

Stroma says, "i hate you"
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Caribastos4 at Nov 23, 2011 10:30:52 AM]
[Nov 23, 2011 10:15:57 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Tangosueno

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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

 
My goal in creating this thread is to try to start a discussion about how we might work together to make Mala's blockade scene more active.

It's often assumed that offering a 'friendly kade' (agree on pay, time, and sinkiness) will promote kading. I'd like to suggest that that may not be true. While blockading is fun in and of itself, and though it's true that a healthy ocean should have a reasonably active kade scene, it does matter who wins. The victorious flag may not be able to recoup all of the poe spent on winning and retaining control of the island, but that flag will at least cover some of those costs. In addition, there's some non-monetary value to shaping the structure of an island as well as the satisfaction of winning. No flag has an endless supply of poe, and so no flag can sustain kade activity if it doesn't win at least a decent percentage of the time. Even 'friendly kades' aren't cheap.

All of that is to say that flags generally won't (and if they do, they won't be able to sustain kade activity) enter kades they can't reasonably expect to win. And while a 'friendly kade' is cheaper than a sinky kade without a paycap, the 'friendly kade' settings do tend to favor one party over another. Given how Mala's population is split into alliance rings, jobber support for the two parties in a kade is likely to be fairly lopsided if the parties agree to a paycap. In an 'unfriendly' kade, the side with lower on-ocean jobber support could hope to even things out by raising pay to attract neutral on-ocean jobbers and off-ocean folks as well. But agreeing to a paycap prevents them from doing so. So in the end, while a single friendly kade may be within the budget of a smaller flag, since that flag wouldn't have a real shot at winning they'd have a very hard time sustaining kade activity.

Unfortunately, I'm not really sure what else can be done to actually encourage kading. I know this post has been long (sorry about that), but I'm hoping that if you made it this far you're willing to throw out some thoughts, either about what I've just said or ideas for how to improve the situation.


----------------------------------

Cades aren't cheap in general, no. But promoting a Pay caped, fair cade seems more likely to bring flags in than a sinking cade, with a pay war...even if both sides will get jobbers.
Let's say the pay cap was at 750...if the more experienced flag was getting more jobbers, they could lower their pay to 650 and let the other flag catch up, instead of the inexperienced flag raising pay to 850. Thats the only way I'd see it would work out.
---------------------

 
Pessimism is not a virtue.

In all honesty, there is nothing someone in the established flags can do to promote blockading, which they do not already do. I suppose all I can say is, "Don't expect to win, and you'll have fun."

To borrow from a different game, "Loosing is Fun."

Edit- Yes, islands do not make poe, anywhere, unless you get the inn and build shoppes.



Saying "Don't expect to win" isn't really helping anything at all. ANY flag can lose a blockade, even an established one. Now, I don't think a flag should expect to win, but I don't think they should expect to lose either.
And from what I hear, Mamabuns has been talking to a flag about a pay-caped friendly cade at lilac. So you can't say flags aren't promoting blockading.
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[Nov 23, 2011 10:35:44 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
monstersoda

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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

I don't expect to win when I blockade either, as doing so is not very ideal if things don't work out. Then you rage quit and such.

But yes, flags have always been encouraging blockading and working on paycaps, so this is nothing new. I am simply addressing the author's point that more should be done, and this effort must be shown by new blockaders, as the current contenders do everything they can already.
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Emmett
[Nov 23, 2011 10:52:07 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Elliptic

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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

I don't know Malachite. Do they guarantee a non-sinking blockade?
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Elliptic at Nov 23, 2011 12:41:07 PM]
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oopoorah

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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

Emmett believes that a cade is fair as long as he has the advantage in jobbing and is winning - he will cry lie cheat and blather on and on about how he is fair and he is an excellent manager and governor - perhaps the reason he tells you that no islands make profit is due to his horribly flawed self confidence in his 'management style' . The absolute truth is that islands can generate income. Chesster Dreams and I made fair and steady income on Zuyua and Also on Drogeo while it was in our control, but it does take some work and honestly I can make more poe in a single stall in the course of a month.

So believe his blather if you like, or go beat him at his own game - and by all means if you expect to lose, do follow his rules, that are to his benefit not yours - please see me if you want to beat him win all of his islands and rub his nose in it, like he has done every time he has squeaked out a win, by the opposing flag generally agreeing to his unfair and weighted terms of WAR.
Poopydog
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[Nov 24, 2011 6:20:16 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Capndi

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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

Islands are a bit of work. I run stock regularly to Fugu to make sure we have plenty of cbs and rum for passing ships and the pirates that keep stalls. We also provide a place to sell stock that you've picked up on your journeys. Some of this is resold (though we try not to compete with our stall owners). Most of it gets packed up on a brig and resold elsewhere. Fugu, while not an outpost, is less populated and less travelled-by than the Lacerta islands. I don't think than can be or should be run the same way.
The work that is done to maintain this island base is done for free by me and a few willing flagmates. It is one of my jobs as Governor. Profits are not great and are used soley in defense of the island. I guarantee you that no one is getting rich. I have never made personal poe from this venture.
I believe we do a nice job on Fugu. It is a reliable place to buy and sell goods and to stock your shippies. If anyone has an issue with the palace, I invite you to send me a tell in game or PM me. I will not play it out on the forums.
On this Thanksgiving day I want to say I am sincerely grateful for my fellow pirates and especially those who support Malachite. Peace.
[Nov 24, 2011 6:53:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Caribastos4

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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

This was my impression of island ownership - that while it doesn't come close to covering the costs of gaining and maintaining control over an island, a flag can make some decent poe off an island between the kades. That poe can in turn help cover kading costs.

I wasn't trying to call out any flag or flags in particular, and I wasn't suggesting that the flags currently in possession of islands don't try to promote kades. I was just trying to start a discussion about the best way to do so. Maybe offering a 'friendly kade' is the best we can do, but at the same time, such offers have been on the table awhile and haven't been accepted. If SMD has a friendly kade in the works then I'm curious to see how it plays out in the short term and how it impacts the ability of both flags to stay active in the kading scene in the long term.
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Stroma says, "i hate you"
[Nov 24, 2011 7:44:32 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
monstersoda

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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

Flags do not generate an income on an island that makes up for the costs of the blockades (and subsequent blockades) and thus do not make a profit. The only real profit an island generates is in shoppes and the inn. Sadly, the more poe an island generates, the higher the cost of the blockade, which negates the effect of the island's higher income anyway.

Really, the only benefit a flag gets out of an island is the pride and experience from owning one, and the ability to shape island policy. The whole point of the game is to have fun, so the fact that an imaginary island does not generate a profit should not deter you from having fun.
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Emmett
[Nov 24, 2011 9:10:39 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Taytaytatty



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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

So, small profits can be made off islands, but not enough to cover its defence (so over all, no profit, just pride). Now back to the topic -

 
My goal in creating this thread is to try to start a discussion about how we might work together to make Mala's blockade scene more active.


So far suggestions have been-
? - Non-sinking
? - Pay cap (or letting flag with lower jobber base have a slightly higher pay)
? - Dont expect to win
? - Team with EI against FitB

Does that about cover it? The general theme appears to be "make cades cheaper, and they will cade" - fair enough? What else can be done apart from the above suggested to make cades cheaper?

On the flipside, maybe it isnt the cades that need to be cheaper (although that certainly helps), maybe we should be discussing fundraising ideas for small and large flags alike? Not just talking about events to get poe off flaggies, but actual poe generating activities. My only suggestion in this area is a complimentary chain of shoppes run by flag leaders with labour and commodity input by as many members as possible to generate maximum profits for the flag.

We seem to have stalled in the "make cades cheaper" department, how about more efficient fundraising techniques?
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Taytaytatty at Nov 24, 2011 9:35:32 AM]
[Nov 24, 2011 9:34:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
mitchie101

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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

Or you can just accept Malachite is dying and enjoy it while it is here, eh?
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[Nov 24, 2011 11:59:03 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
totoiseshell

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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

 
Or you can just accept Malachite is dying and enjoy it while it is here, eh?

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[Nov 25, 2011 10:24:03 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Doulber

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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

 
Or you can just accept Malachite is dying and enjoy it while it is here, eh?

----------------------------------------
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[Nov 25, 2011 11:17:39 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
monstersoda

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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

Giving up is far too easy, so you may as well enjoy the fight.
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Emmett
[Nov 25, 2011 11:58:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
mitchie101

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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

Merely postponing the inevitable.
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[Nov 25, 2011 1:44:07 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Taytaytatty



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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

Never thought id say this... i agree with Emmett.

If you think this ocean is dead thats fine, but your comments arnt helping our discussions at all, we care about mala. This thread is for throwing ideas around of how to improve mala's cade scence, if you think this ocean is dead, scupper off, we dont care about your opinion if you dont care for Mala.
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Native of Malachite
 
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[Nov 26, 2011 1:38:53 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
mitchie101

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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

This thread is not about caring about Mala. You can care about Mala all you want, but you will soon enough realize that it will only be about with the same amount of members that are active right now.

If you want to create non-sinking cades with a pay of 750/seg on a weekly basis, that is fine. But no one on other oceans will find this attractive to join Malachite. And if you have paid attention to the general trend on Y!PP, you will have noticed that population everywhere is decreasing. You can start a discussion if you want but if the result of that discussion is not what you expected, it does not mean that you can just let it be and think it will work out itself.

This will just be temporary. You can create those non-sinking cades with a pay cap to make the blockade scene more active, but you will soon realize that people are not going to stick around and everything will remain the same. All you will have is more blockades. And if I am not mistaken, most blockades on Mala in the last couple of months have only created cryfests and people leaving.

But of course, my opinion does not count because I used to care about Mala and then I became realistic :(((
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Mitch on Obsidian.
Mitchiie on Meridian and Emerald.
[Nov 26, 2011 4:22:12 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kamuflaro

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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

 
But of course, my opinion does not count because I used to care about Mala and then I became realisticbitter :(((

fixed?
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[Nov 26, 2011 6:53:18 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
mitchie101

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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

 
 
But of course, my opinion does not count because I used to care about Mala and then I became realisticbitter :(((

fixed?

No, but hilarious.
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Mitch on Obsidian.
Mitchiie on Meridian and Emerald.
[Nov 26, 2011 7:51:05 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Taytaytatty



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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

 

But of course, my opinion does not count because I used to care about Mala and then I became realistic :(((


So you simply come back to the Mala forums to tell us we are all wasting our time and our ocean has no hope? Excuse us if we dont care what you have to say.
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Native of Malachite
 
Ye have received 1 piece of eight from Asuras.
Asuras says, "tay for normal clothes :P not for alkohol xD"

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[Nov 26, 2011 11:42:39 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
mitchie101

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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

Come back? I never left. Nice try though.

EDIT : You are excused.
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Mitch on Obsidian.
Mitchiie on Meridian and Emerald.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by mitchie101 at Nov 26, 2011 11:54:31 AM]
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Jedra

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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

 

Does that about cover it? The general theme appears to be "make cades cheaper, and they will cade" - fair enough? What else can be done apart from the above suggested to make cades cheaper?


There's only so cheap you can make a cade before you make it boring, is the problem. Anything less than 500/seg and only your flags will be jobbing. Personally I feel 1000 is about the region where it breaks into a "serious" cade (i.e. most of the ocean online will be joining in and you will be fielding mainly brigs with a few small ships rather than just small ships).

The main cost of becoming a cading flag is not the jobber pay but the fleet. Few mala cades break 2 million in jobber pay - most are a hell of a lot lower. A fleet, however, is pricey as hell - what I consider to be a "minimum" fleet to be a serious contender for holding islands costs in the region of 7+ million poe.

I think *that* is the main reason we don't see lot of cades - how many of us have the ships lying around to hold an island against a BK even if we win it?

I can't speak for the rest of SMD, but I personally would be very happy to do a friendly cade intending to use smaller ships on Lilac - low pay, low startup cost, lowish jobbers but lots of fun. Because its such a dead island, I wouldn't feel at all bad about losing it to a flag that couldn't defend against a BK - if its BK owned not many people will even notice a difference to the ocean.

One other thing to note is that truly friendly cade is about more than just non-sinking with a paycap. Its about letting your opponent catch up or get ahead in jobbers if they are losing the cade. Its about not getting bitter when you lose. And its about giving your honest opinion to your opponent about what they did poorly and where they could improve, as well as where they kicked ass, so that the next time they cade they do even better. We had so many cades like this with BI before they left the ocean... and frankly I miss it. Please, if anyone is interested in this, contact me and we can try to get the ball rolling.

I should stress this is my view not SMDs... but I would be surprised if my fellow royals did not agree on this front... and I'll spank them if the don't.
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Ice_devil

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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

How will cheap kades save Mala?

Yeh, maybe Climax will come in offering 20 PoE a seg and be broke by the end of the kade, but that doesn't fix Mala.


EN-Hell alliance theory: 5k a seg over pointless islands = More people on mala.
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[Nov 26, 2011 6:54:42 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Tangosueno

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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

 
How will cheap kades save Mala?

Yeh, maybe Climax will come in offering 20 PoE a seg and be broke by the end of the kade, but that doesn't fix Mala.


EN-Hell alliance theory: 5k a seg over pointless islands = More people on mala.



Nobody said cheaper cades will save Mala.
This isn't a "Save mala thread" the OP just wanted suggestions on how to get more flags to cade. Plain and simple.
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BobJanova

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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

 
EN-Hell alliance theory: 5k a seg over pointless islands = More people on mala.

No, that will get more people for three hours on a Saturday night, cross ocean alts who'll just buy up doubloons and leave, like all of us do from oceans which get crazy pay. It would also mean that Malachite flags couldn't afford to enter the blockade scene. It's just a really bad idea. I see that you play on another ocean, so perhaps that is intentional.
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hallaluah320

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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

Didn't dknow dis docean dstill dexist...
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Greenday
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Seamusa

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Re: Mala's Kade Scene

 


Yeh, maybe Climax will come in offering 20 PoE a seg and be broke by the end of the kade, but that doesn't fix Mala.




Nice diss. I like it. /e thumbs up
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Seamusa on Mala
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