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warp11

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Re: Intent for Dendrite

Okay let's break this down for you so it'll be easy to understand. Firstly I'm sure you refer to my indecisive mind as the guy who drove the pack when it came towards Legacy using attrition at Fintan. I myself have asked myself thoroughly what the difference between going for sinks the last 5 minutes or doing what Legacy did.

Honestly I don't have a problem with trying to sink your opponent a little extra the last 5 minutes. This is simply just a logical and smart move that you've allowed yourself to do from 40 minutes of good blockading. Plus nothing is forcing your opponent to stay on the board if the round is already won/lost. The difference here is if you sit down before a blockade and say, "okay no matter how it goes today we're going for sinks so we can come back next weekend" and then you rinse and repeat until your opponent is broke. Wend explained to the forum that this was what has been decided before the Fintan cades, that the 3-week (or more) plan was already jotted down before week 1. Now, what is the difference between these two tactics? If you do what IC did, you do so because for 40 minutes you have been showing your superior (or inferior) skills in blockading. IC did outjob which makes it a bit illegit, but in terms of going for sinks towards the end as a general strategy this applies. Therefore, the difference between these two things is that one is granted because of your prowess in blockading, and the other to remove said prowess from relevance in the blockading.

Therefore, I am not being hypocritical, perhaps just a bit unclear. Because at the end of the day, what I stand for is to let blockading be about blockading, and I think going for sinks is a natural part of this.

Stagnated ocean. One of the major points where I had to convince people was if we would be causing more damage to the ocean by giving all of the power to Cairna thus creating stagnation, and I will tell you what I told them. What is the difference now from two weeks ago? Legacy had a non-aggression pact with Knockout to prevent blockades between each other. How have we created a stagnation that wasn't already there? The only difference here is that instead of having you sit on a chunk of the islands, someone else is, and this is your problem here, not the actual stagnation. If the stagnation was bothering you then you had all the time in the world to blockade Knockout or IC or any other flag that could actually provide you with a fight.

I'm sorry I just don't see the difference between IC and WoA island-sitting and Legacy island-sitting.
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Dahl "I have higher moral standards" gren
[Nov 1, 2011 12:31:06 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Reeves90

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Re: Intent for Dendrite

 
Last post on my part.

IC won R1 at Hadrian, the 3rd party and Tyranny removed their job offer at Hadrian, leaving IC with a flagsit there.

Dendrite started almost simultaneously with R2 of Hadrian. But the main thing here is, Annex did not exspect IC to defend for TBC. They could not have exspected to have to deal with an instant 200 jobbers advantage. They exspected a blockade against a rather small flag, not a big flag like IC.

As for the 3rd party's at R1 and R2 of Dendrite, this was because Annex had pulled out, because they didn't want to continue their 'first' blockade at a 1.8K/seg. Hence why Dilemma and P4P allied Annex to try and help them out.

I'm looking forward to Barhoum attempting to defend an island on his own. Yeah...


So, my points stand. I.C. cannot be expected to lose all their jobbers at Hadrian as they must still flag sit for 2 rounds.

Also, is it not naive for a flag to believe they will not face an ally of the person they dropped on when that ally also has a blockade running at the same time?


Yes, it might be Barhoum's ships/poe and maybe even some of his people (though not likely as I.C. had a large island running and therefore would have already had the staff present) but the fact that his ally had a cade going should therefore imply that they would be directly involved in the defense.

Allied flags have ran multiple cades out of the same flag for ages, not sure why there was a direct uproar now.
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~ Reeves/Rreeves ~
[Nov 1, 2011 12:34:08 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
2NDSKY

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Re: Intent for Dendrite

 
Also, is it not naive for a flag to believe they will not face an ally of the person they dropped on when that ally also has a blockade running at the same time?

You might of missed the part where it was Annex's 'first' blockade. That should answer your question. If we are to exspect every new flag to be super pro from scratch, then Viridian wouldn't be going towards stagnation.
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Shadowie on Obsidian
[Nov 1, 2011 12:36:51 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
warp11

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Re: Intent for Dendrite

Perhaps they should've chosen their target a bit more wisely.

What a shame all the outposts were hoarded up into one flag and then spread out over an alliance ring so new flags don't have a place to start anymore. Good thinking Viridian! :D
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Dahl "I have higher moral standards" gren
[Nov 1, 2011 12:44:20 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
benrenshaw

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Re: Intent for Dendrite

The difference I see here with Imperial Coalition's sinkfest and Legacy's is that IC were outjobbing, when Legacy were being outjobbed. On top of that it was Annex's first blockade, and they are a new flag. Whereas when Legacy did so, it was against a well-established flag. Be it morally right or wrong these are facts and not opinion.

I think you need to stop being so single minded Dahlgren. You are again and again going over that I sit on islands and go for free blockades. I admit a year or more ago, that is true and the 400 post trollfest myself was not entirely all wrongly done so. However, you and I both know that has changed. Did you not nav for me on Sage? Did you not notice to see who we were against and who we were blockading?

Since coming back to Viridian, I have dropped on Equilibrium. Where I would have gotten a flagsit if DLAM had not entered. You may say I dropped for the flagsit, however we were not expecting Equilibrium to be a noshow, and this was in fact just after Luxory said he would never allow me to win an island. We can just discount that fact though.

After Viridis I dropped on Conglin. We got about 35 minutes of getting our arse's handed to us before DLAM pulled out. I am pretty sure that was not a flagsit.

Brisky dropped the week after at a time where I simply couldn't make it. I didn't want my PoE being spent by another when I could be the one having fun so we planned to blockade it the weekend after, however he scuttled.

We also dropped on Corona Reef, and The First Fleet. This may have been misjudged as we got the flagsit. I did sell stock to Chillii on the island so he would enter.


Although you will peel all of these blockades and say I looked for the flagsit and islandsitting. I can assure you I did not. I even put it in bold so you wouldn't miss it.
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Captainben on Meridian
Basicx on Emerald
[Nov 1, 2011 12:51:11 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Ezder

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Re: Intent for Dendrite

Reeves, I think what you're missing is that Hadrian was an obvious flagsit (all other offers removed) long before Dendrite went live. There was plenty of time to lower the pay, but IC chose not to.
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Avienda
Nightmare/Legacy

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Qvintvs flag royalty chats, "I won't play for that much longer and when I quit, my pirate's dead body will be sent out at sea on a burning ship and let's face it, you will be on that ship as well.
[Nov 1, 2011 12:52:09 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
warp11

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Re: Intent for Dendrite

 
The difference I see here with Imperial Coalition's sinkfest and Legacy's is that IC were outjobbing, when Legacy were being outjobbed. On top of that it was Annex's first blockade, and they are a new flag. Whereas when Legacy did so, it was against a well-established flag. Be it morally right or wrong these are facts and not opinion.

 
IC did outjob which makes it a bit illegit, but in terms of going for sinks towards the end as a general strategy this applies.

Facts, yes. Irrelevant, yes. It's not okay no matter who you're facing, nor is outjobbing like IC did okay. Nobody has refuted the point that IC executed this weekend poorly, sadly this is not a one-time occurance on Viridian these days. This does not mean that in comparision what Legacy did was okay.

What I'm trying to say here, and I'm going to put it in bold too for you. What IC did wrong was match pay while up a ton of jobbers, it was NOT to go for sinks once the round had been secured like you're trying to make out.
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Dahl "I have higher moral standards" gren
[Nov 1, 2011 1:07:26 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
MimiLinda

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Re: Intent for Dendrite

Many times I've held jobbers in port to keep the blockade even, we did it last weekend on TLM and would do it again; many times while you've been BAing you asked to hold on ships as we had already too many in the board, whats so different this time around Reeves? Was it necesary to keep pay at 1.8k on a flagsit and hold 200 jobbers to start on a 200 jobber lead? I don't think so, defend what they did all you want but no flag or BA who truly likes even blockade would of sent 8 ships to 2.
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Roseh

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[Nov 1, 2011 1:07:34 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Reeves90

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Re: Intent for Dendrite

 
Many times I've held jobbers in port to keep the blockade even, we did it last weekend on TLM and would do it again; many times while you've been BAing you asked to hold on ships as we had already too many in the board, whats so different this time around Reeves? Was it necesary to keep pay at 1.8k on a flagsit and hold 200 jobbers to start on a 200 jobber lead? I don't think so, defend what they did all you want but no flag or BA who truly likes even blockade would of sent 8 ships to 2.


So, my time table is off? I was going by what Shadowy had just said, that Tyranny and the 3ps pulled their offers down/stopped jobbing right as round 1 ended, and Dendrite started simultaneously with round 2.

Yes, as BA I have told you several times to hold ships because we have to many on the board, but generally that is near the end of the round when the majority of those jobbers have been getting paid for awhile.

I agree with the fact that I.C. could have sent some of the jobbers onto Hadrian to help Even Dendrite out. But am not convinced lowering pay was a good option when they have a large to flag sit as well as the other island to contest.

Had Annex put up a decent fight and someone decide to come screw with Hadrian (as tends to be the case when someone is bored) they would have been screwed had they released a large amount of their jobbers. Especially since the competition left a mere 15 minutes prior to Dendrite going live leaving enough time to figure out the strategy for Dendrite/Hadrian combined.

I.C. could have also simply paused jobbing and allowed Annex to catch up, but the issue seems to be that annex was not prepared to even pay the 1.8 regardless if I.C. paused?

When dropping during a large island blockade, a flag should be prepared to pay an equivalent amount as the large in order to get jobbers. Please do not throw the "It is their first cade" in response to this. They had the sense to ask Roseh to JC a few days before, meaning they could certainly have had the sense to request advice from individuals and figured these kind of issues out.


I am not saying the blame is completely on the side of Annex. Nor am I an I.C. lover, in fact they have made it known to me on multiple occasions that I am near the top of their doghouse list. But given the facts as they appear to be, the amount of blame being placed on them seems to be a little over the top.
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~ Reeves/Rreeves ~
[Nov 1, 2011 1:27:41 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
benrenshaw

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Re: Intent for Dendrite

 
 
The difference I see here with Imperial Coalition's sinkfest and Legacy's is that IC were outjobbing, when Legacy were being outjobbed. On top of that it was Annex's first blockade, and they are a new flag. Whereas when Legacy did so, it was against a well-established flag. Be it morally right or wrong these are facts and not opinion.

 
IC did outjob which makes it a bit illegit, but in terms of going for sinks towards the end as a general strategy this applies.

Facts, yes. Irrelevant, yes. It's not okay no matter who you're facing, nor is outjobbing like IC did okay. Nobody has refuted the point that IC executed this weekend poorly, sadly this is not a one-time occurance on Viridian these days. This does not mean that in comparision what Legacy did was okay.

What I'm trying to say here, and I'm going to put it in bold too for you. What IC did wrong was match pay while up a ton of jobbers, it was NOT to go for sinks once the round had been secured like you're trying to make out.


I am not saying what Legacy did was right.

What I am saying is that I believe, strongly at that, IC should not have gone for sinks after the round was clearly won against a flag such as Annex. We need more blockading flags and Annex was one of those 'could be's, they were trying to get out of the blocks. I have used that term to many times but I feel it suits.
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Captainben on Meridian
Basicx on Emerald
[Nov 1, 2011 1:27:52 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
MimiLinda

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Re: Intent for Dendrite

You can hold jobbers, if you are worried about hadrian then don't hold them and send them into hadrian to flagsit; why ruin a blockade for a flag that just stepped up and dropped their first chest? Why make TBC pay for the extra jobbers instead of IC a big and established flag?
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Roseh

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[Nov 1, 2011 1:32:30 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Yasmi6

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Re: Intent for Dendrite

 
 
Many times I've held jobbers in port to keep the blockade even, we did it last weekend on TLM and would do it again; many times while you've been BAing you asked to hold on ships as we had already too many in the board, whats so different this time around Reeves? Was it necesary to keep pay at 1.8k on a flagsit and hold 200 jobbers to start on a 200 jobber lead? I don't think so, defend what they did all you want but no flag or BA who truly likes even blockade would of sent 8 ships to 2.


So, my time table is off? I was going by what Shadowy had just said, that Tyranny and the 3ps pulled their offers down/stopped jobbing right as round 1 ended, and Dendrite started simultaneously with round 2.

Yes, as BA I have told you several times to hold ships because we have to many on the board, but generally that is near the end of the round when the majority of those jobbers have been getting paid for awhile.

I agree with the fact that I.C. could have sent some of the jobbers onto Hadrian to help Even Dendrite out. But am not convinced lowering pay was a good option when they have a large to flag sit as well as the other island to contest.

Had Annex put up a decent fight and someone decide to come screw with Hadrian (as tends to be the case when someone is bored) they would have been screwed had they released a large amount of their jobbers. Especially since the competition left a mere 15 minutes prior to Dendrite going live leaving enough time to figure out the strategy for Dendrite/Hadrian combined.

I.C. could have also simply paused jobbing and allowed Annex to catch up, but the issue seems to be that annex was not prepared to even pay the 1.8 regardless if I.C. paused?

When dropping during a large island blockade, a flag should be prepared to pay an equivalent amount as the large in order to get jobbers. Please do not throw the "It is their first cade" in response to this. They had the sense to ask Roseh to JC a few days before, meaning they could certainly have had the sense to request advice from individuals and figured these kind of issues out.


I am not saying the blame is completely on the side of Annex. Nor am I an I.C. lover, in fact they have made it known to me on multiple occasions that I am near the top of their doghouse list. But given the facts as they appear to be, the amount of blame being placed on them seems to be a little over the top.



I would like a "like" button to press under ur post reeves :)
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Yasmi on Meridian

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(ex-Queen of Devils Advocates)

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Better to reign in Hell, than to serve in Heaven...
[Nov 1, 2011 1:48:34 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Randomite

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Re: Intent for Dendrite

I wasn't going to say any more but i've got two facts to throw into this, both of which were mentioned in Reeves post.

We sent two frigs in to flagsit Hadrian to try and dry up jobbers, they were in until well after Dendrite started, and jobbing was indeed halted as soon as Pay for Plays + Tyranny's job offers were dropped on Hadrian.
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Disengaged.

Dexade tells ye, "i m not talking to you and dont want your cookies!"
[Nov 1, 2011 1:54:22 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kamuflaro

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Re: Intent for Dendrite

 
You can hold jobbers, if you are worried about hadrian then don't hold them and send them into hadrian to flagsit; why ruin a blockade for a flag that just stepped up and dropped their first chest? Why make TBC pay for the extra jobbers instead of IC a big and established flag?

Swede already said why he did what he did.
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[Nov 1, 2011 4:04:18 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
MimiLinda

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Re: Intent for Dendrite

No one was kind enough to translate his post.
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Roseh

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[Nov 1, 2011 4:22:28 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
WenchCleo

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Re: Intent for Dendrite

I would but it would hurt my head...
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Tikao of Viridian Meridian Ocean
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This thread is like a spanish soap series, I don't have a clue what they are saying and all the actors suck.

[Nov 1, 2011 7:44:10 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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