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Randomite

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Re: Let this thread die already! The drop never even happend.

 
Got a bit of a smudge on your nose, need a tissue?


Man, you really shouldn't comment on brown-nosing when all 3 of us did it last weekend against Legacy.
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Disengaged.

Dexade tells ye, "i m not talking to you and dont want your cookies!"
[Aug 16, 2011 1:09:52 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LunEnvoy

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Re: Let this thread die already! The drop never even happend.

6Z9 ?
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LoLune

I'm still just the guard dog. I bite. They shoot.
[Aug 16, 2011 2:24:31 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
warp11

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Re: Let this thread die already! The drop never even happend.

Just a little further Qvintus and you can walk through Compton without getting shot.

Maybe.
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Dahl "I have higher moral standards" gren
[Aug 16, 2011 2:45:27 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LunEnvoy

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Re: Let this thread die already! The drop never even happend.

Gotta get that shuffle down first.
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LoLune

I'm still just the guard dog. I bite. They shoot.
[Aug 16, 2011 2:49:54 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Elliptic

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Re: Legacy's intent to scare Razor's Edge into scuttling Spectre

Kamuflaro wrote: 
glittertjess wrote: 
Attrition isn't against the spirit of the game.

You just lost the political game. :)

Resource attrition isn't against the Spirit of the Game. Cairna's statement was factual. Did you bother to read the post for context?
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"That is not how the question frames itself."

Wend, royal archophobe
[Aug 16, 2011 3:16:05 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LunEnvoy

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Re: Legacy's intent to scare Razor's Edge into scuttling Spectre

You misread him I believe, wend.
Hypothetical situation to explain:
My first day of kindergarten I wanted the icecream that the other kids had. I told the kids it was perfectly okay to punch people in the face to get stuff.
I didnt make many friends that day :(

(alternately, I could have also told the kids Its perfectly okay for me to take their shoes and crayons until they gimme said icecream. - Either way, I didnt make many friends that day.)
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LoLune

I'm still just the guard dog. I bite. They shoot.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by LunEnvoy at Aug 16, 2011 3:29:47 PM]
[Aug 16, 2011 3:27:05 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
warp11

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Re: Legacy's intent to scare Razor's Edge into scuttling Spectre

 
Kamuflaro wrote: 
glittertjess wrote: 
Attrition isn't against the spirit of the game.

You just lost the political game. :)

Resource attrition isn't against the Spirit of the Game. Cairna's statement was factual. Did you bother to read the post for context?

What Kamuflaro means is that everything that could be considered a jack move by a large amount of people is very likely to hurt you in the long run. Jobbing advantadges, attrition, these are two very two-edged swords with upsides and downsides for the wielder.

Even though it's not against the rules, it doesn't have to be the sort of things a player condescends themselves to in order to win a petty island. Imagine how much more impressive a victory is if it's achieved by pure skill instead of superior resources? That's the way I like to roll and I hope the majority of the ocean one day will too.
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Dahl "I have higher moral standards" gren
[Aug 16, 2011 3:39:05 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LunEnvoy

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Re: Legacy's intent to scare Razor's Edge into scuttling Spectre

The problem with the resource vs skill idealology's is that resource attainment is a skill in and of itself.

Blockades between even parties can be about skill.
But until people stop trying to gain advantages OFF the board in the political sector, blockades focused purely on the skill of the staff will be few and far between.
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LoLune

I'm still just the guard dog. I bite. They shoot.
[Aug 16, 2011 3:45:46 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Elliptic

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Re: Legacy's intent to scare Razor's Edge into scuttling Spectre

The Spirit of the Game is a policy term in Puzzle Pirates and it is as such that it should be used on the forums unless expressly given another meaning. If he read and understood Cairna's post, his post is saying that you lose this 'political game' by making statements of fact - or that Cairna's statement was false. Such a post should not pass without comment.


Dahlgren wrote: 
Even though it's not against the rules, it doesn't have to be the sort of things a player condescends themselves to in order to win a petty island. Imagine how much more impressive a victory is if it's achieved by pure skill instead of superior resources? That's the way I like to roll and I hope the majority of the ocean one day will too.

Dahlgren, please understand that I do not feel it lowers anyone in any way to use resource attrition. I do not believe I am affording myself any extra moral or ethical latitude by advocating it. On the contrary, I believe those who speak against its legitimacy are lowering themselves, wittingly or unwittingly. I am not saying 'loosen up!': I am saying 'you are seriously wrong'. If I am lowering myself by holding the position I am I want to be shown where I've gone wrong in my thinking. If we are to have a discussion, we cannot start it with anything like 'resource attrition is bad sportsmanship' because that is an end - that is when we would be in agreement and I would renounce it. Do you see where I am coming from?
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"That is not how the question frames itself."

Wend, royal archophobe
[Aug 16, 2011 4:52:41 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
warp11

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Re: Legacy's intent to scare Razor's Edge into scuttling Spectre

I understand that we obviusly do not see this from the same point of view. This is understandable.

What I mean here is, as Cairna said, what we do is going to be evaluated by our peers. Even though you personally may not see a problem and would gladly stand for something, it could upset a lot of people. Just as I would gladly stand for anything RiddleMakers have pursued within the latest year you are obviusly prepared to stand for Legacy's actions because you personally do not feel what I feel about these events. However when a jury of peers decides the legitimacy of one's actions, what you think is irrelevant. Therefore I am not attempting to argue my standpoint to you in particular but the forum as a whole.

We are back at the material attrition loop again. I personally feel that don't do anything on the board that you wouldn't like being done to you. I don't know you very well but I would assume that you would prefer not to be beaten on the basis of superior resources. With the risk of repeating myself, I believe resources are part of blockading, but if you rely solely on it for your victory you will probably win that particular cade. And then the next one, perhaps even a couple after that. At the end of the day though, nothing lasts forever. Ships can be sunk, pieces of eight spent, shots fired, rum drunk. The only thing that you are truly going to keep is your skill. Other than that, I believe that people should always be given a fighting chance to let the blockading do the talking and not the eights. If you are not one of those, then that probably isn't going to change, however as I've mentioned previously as long as the jury of peers judges your actions it's what sits with them that matters.

With the risk of repeating myself, I'd like to summarize my post by saying that I believe resource-making is an important part of blockading that should not be neglected, yet neither emphasized too greatly. It should be a part of when an island shifting hands, not all of it. If you don't give your opponent a chance then it's merely a purchase as no real blockading has taken place here, and I suppose that is the profound reason as to why I despise attrition.

[Placeholder for Qvintus is a brown-noser picture]
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Dahl "I have higher moral standards" gren
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by warp11 at Aug 16, 2011 5:14:22 PM]
[Aug 16, 2011 5:13:05 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LunEnvoy

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Re: Legacy's intent to scare Razor's Edge into scuttling Spectre

The only problem I see with treating the forums as a jury of peers, is that those who make the jury are placed there by the very people who come to the stand to speak. Its a lopsided system. Look at VP from 2009 to mid 2010. RM dominated it. That would hardly have been a fair jury for anyone trying to make a case that went against the communal RM mentality.

*winkeyface*
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LoLune

I'm still just the guard dog. I bite. They shoot.
[Aug 16, 2011 5:28:51 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Aconspiracy

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Re: Legacy's intent to scare Razor's Edge into scuttling Spectre

I don't pop onto forums much (especially Viridian), but just to point out: What the forum thinks as a whole, or what our "jury of peers" says is fine and dandy. But that doesn't mean that it necessarily has an impact in game. People can hoot and holler on their forum soapbox about issues and personal vendettas, but that doesn't mean changes will happen. Cairna held islands for how long on Hunter after CC retired? A long time- despite the complaining on the forums. Rm held how many islands for how long on Viridian despite complaints on the forums? You get the picture. I can sit here and debate about ethics and morals with the best of them, but i'm not going to do anything on Saturday or Sunday, so what makes what I say have any validity? (not saying that people here are talkers who don't back their stuff up- just example of someone like me who could be grouped into the "jury of peers" but won't do anything, thus nulling my opinion)
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Simply Vuran these days
[Aug 16, 2011 5:40:51 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
warp11

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Re: Legacy's intent to scare Razor's Edge into scuttling Spectre

High end players call the shots around here, high end players also tend to read forums. The reason RM had a majority of followers on the forum could be traced to the fact that the concentration of high end players was and is higher in RM. Also, not all people who sympathized with RM was in fact in RM.

I don't see how this is relevant for the discussion though.
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Dahl "I have higher moral standards" gren
[Aug 16, 2011 6:09:18 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LunEnvoy

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Re: Legacy's intent to scare Razor's Edge into scuttling Spectre

The only thing that nulls your opinion is yourself. Or stupidity.
Not sayin you're stupid. Unless you are. But thats up to you. ;)

Edit: Dahl snipe.
Wrong. Look at all the trolls dude. Ichi. Hurt. Me. Emp. Ele. Fifa. Sardinez. Underdogg. Derko. Randomdudes that lasted 2 days. ETC. It was tour de force man. VP got OWNED. So you can take that 'high end' bs and shove it in a cannon.
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LoLune

I'm still just the guard dog. I bite. They shoot.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by LunEnvoy at Aug 16, 2011 6:16:32 PM]
[Aug 16, 2011 6:09:27 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
warp11

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Re: Legacy's intent to scare Razor's Edge into scuttling Spectre

I'm sorry. Could you please show me where I stated the forum consists solely of high end players as that would be incorrect.
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Dahl "I have higher moral standards" gren
[Aug 16, 2011 6:18:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LunEnvoy

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Re: Legacy's intent to scare Razor's Edge into scuttling Spectre

 
High end players call the shots around here,

Just saying. Low end scumbags can control the forums too.

--

 
I don't see how this is relevant for the discussion though.

Basicly, most people arent like me and just randomly show up in VP and stick around. [insert Guans cancer pics]
For the most part, VP is supplemented by friends of already active forum-goers. If it had anything to do with skill and intelligence, there wouldnt be a VP.
How did Plato say it? "Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber."
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LoLune

I'm still just the guard dog. I bite. They shoot.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by LunEnvoy at Aug 16, 2011 6:54:09 PM]
[Aug 16, 2011 6:37:38 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
M_Cobain

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Re: Legacy's intent to scare Razor's Edge into scuttling Spectre

 
 
High end players call the shots around here,

Just saying. Low end scumbags can control the forums too.

--

 
I don't see how this is relevant for the discussion though.

Basicly, most people arent like me and just randomly show up in VP and stick around. [insert Guans cancer pics]
For the most part, VP is supplemented by friends of already active forum-goers. If it had anything to do with skill and intelligence, there wouldnt be a VP.
How did Plato say it? "Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber."


Control? Govern? Are you getting silly things in your head again Lune?
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Martobain

YPPedia improved with Tom Cruise the Elephant (who's my friend and buddy) catalogue!
[Aug 16, 2011 7:01:22 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Aconspiracy

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Re: Legacy's intent to scare Razor's Edge into scuttling Spectre

Dahl, i was responding to
 
However when a jury of peers decides the legitimacy of one's actions, what you think is irrelevant.

 
what we do is going to be evaluated by our peers.


Five peers can agree about something on the forums and thus give the "political opinion of VP". Still doesn't really change anything in-game where there are three hundred jobbers that only care about if pay is at 3k a seg or 3.5k a seg.

Edit: I know forums effect politics and politiking to get flags to support you is a huge part of your jobber base. I am being extremely general in this case.
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Simply Vuran these days
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Aconspiracy at Aug 16, 2011 7:14:44 PM]
[Aug 16, 2011 7:09:06 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LunEnvoy

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Re: Legacy's intent to scare Razor's Edge into scuttling Spectre

 
Control? Govern? Are you getting silly things in your head again Lune?


You know it tiger ;)
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LoLune

I'm still just the guard dog. I bite. They shoot.
[Aug 16, 2011 7:11:13 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Demonboyred

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Re: Legacy's intent to scare Razor's Edge into scuttling Spectre

You crazy kids.

Other than that, I don't see a reason to make an entirely long post, seeing how Dahl has done it multiple times in better ways than I could word it.
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Bunnyspawn, Malachite's most arrogant player.

Also Bunnyspawn on Sage and Hunter;Disgraced on Viridian.

I support PvP in sinking environments.
[Aug 16, 2011 7:26:47 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LunEnvoy

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Re: Legacy's intent to scare Razor's Edge into scuttling Spectre

 
You crazy kids.

Other than that, I don't see a reason to make an entirely long post, seeing how Dahl has done it multiple times in better ways than I could word it.


You smell that, man? Ohh, haha right. You cant smell much of anything atm can you? ;)
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LoLune

I'm still just the guard dog. I bite. They shoot.
[Aug 16, 2011 7:44:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Demonboyred

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Re: Legacy's intent to scare Razor's Edge into scuttling Spectre

 
 
You crazy kids.

Other than that, I don't see a reason to make an entirely long post, seeing how Dahl has done it multiple times in better ways than I could word it.


You smell that, man? Ohh, haha right. You cant smell much of anything atm can you? ;)


The developers never gave me a nose to smell with. :(
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Bunnyspawn, Malachite's most arrogant player.

Also Bunnyspawn on Sage and Hunter;Disgraced on Viridian.

I support PvP in sinking environments.
[Aug 16, 2011 7:53:34 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LunEnvoy

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Re: Legacy's intent to scare Razor's Edge into scuttling Spectre

Sall good. They gave me a 1111 post limit D:<
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LoLune

I'm still just the guard dog. I bite. They shoot.
[Aug 16, 2011 8:09:56 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Elliptic

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Re: Legacy's intent to scare Razor's Edge into scuttling Spectre

warp11 wrote: 
With the risk of repeating myself, I'd like to summarize my post by saying that I believe resource-making is an important part of blockading that should not be neglected, yet neither emphasized too greatly. It should be a part of when an island shifting hands, not all of it. If you don't give your opponent a chance then it's merely a purchase as no real blockading has taken place here, and I suppose that is the profound reason as to why I despise attrition.

If someone tries to buy a blockade against me, the task I set myself is to make that purchase expensive. How well I succeed in that depends on how well I fight the blockade. I can't really agree that there's no real blockading involved since, if my flag manages to do very well, my enemy's victory will be pyrrhic.

So then I might want to attack soon afterwards, before the effect of my side's effort has been completely eroded by island income. There could be scope for negotiating a deferral if the islandowner offered to give up the income, but I don't see how we can sanction a flag taking money from an island while refusing the burden of its defense.

In this example, skill has a huge influence on costs. It matters. And skill itself is a product of experience, which isn't free. And when a flag with experience uses sinking against one without, we are talking about a fairly ruthless attack on resources just as much as any comparison of skill. Resources and skill are intertwined.
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"That is not how the question frames itself."

Wend, royal archophobe
[Aug 22, 2011 9:26:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Chiptharip

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Re: Legacy's intent to scare Razor's Edge into scuttling Spectre

This argument has been repeated ad nauseam since 2004. Generally, the two most prominent camps, represented by Dahl and Wend, respectively, are those who view blockading as sport and those who see it as a means to a pixelated end.
[Aug 22, 2011 1:02:37 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Elliptic

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Re: Legacy's intent to scare Razor's Edge into scuttling Spectre

Try again.
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"That is not how the question frames itself."

Wend, royal archophobe
[Aug 22, 2011 1:13:23 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Chiptharip

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Re: Legacy's intent to scare Razor's Edge into scuttling Spectre

I'll elaborate:

Resource attrition is a solution to a non-game day, eco-political issue - dislodging an entrenched island holder or erasing a flag's ability to compete on a future game day. By definition, attrition is not a one-off strategy; it is a means to a future end. Blockading through resource attrition has an end goal of eliminating a flag's blockading ability, thus opening an island or preventing future attacks.

Blockading for sport is focused on single game-day actions - minimizing non-game day intangibles (ex. jobbing agreements to neutralize political/alliance imbalances) as a means for the actual, single blockade to be determined by absolute game-day player skill - actual on-board/dock competition.

So yeah, two camps. One faction is opposed to resource attrition on the grounds that it isn't "sport". The other sees it as a non-game day solution to eliminate a flag's (future) game-day abilities. Means to an end, not sport. Resource attrition is affected by game-day action/skill; however, it is merely a component in a larger, not strictly blockade based strategy.
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[Edit 3 times, last edit by Chiptharip at Aug 22, 2011 1:42:37 PM]
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2NDSKY

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Re: Legacy's intent to scare Razor's Edge into scuttling Spectre

I agree with Chiptharip here. When you start implementing tactics like resource attrition, you can't say you do it for the blockades when your actions give away that you simply want the island.

On a side note, I discovered about 10+ new English words. Thanks smart asses.
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Shadowiie on Emerald
[Aug 22, 2011 2:12:23 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LunEnvoy

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Re: Legacy's intent to scare Razor's Edge into scuttling Spectre

 
I agree with Chiptharip here. When you start implementing tactics like resource attrition, you can't say you do it for the blockades when your actions give away that you simply want the island.

On a side note, I discovered about 10+ new English words. Thanks smart asses.

Wait. So when you focus on individual islands and blockades and whatnot, it means you do it all for fun.
And if you focus on a larger picture, you're only doing it for the individual islands.


Isnt it annoying when I twist things just enough to see how screwed sideways they really are?
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LoLune

I'm still just the guard dog. I bite. They shoot.
[Aug 22, 2011 2:47:16 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Chiptharip

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Re: Legacy's intent to scare Razor's Edge into scuttling Spectre

Yes, it is annoying when you're deliberately being obtuse and illogical. Not once in my responses to Wend (or the entire thread) did I use any value words. As I (didn't) note, no positions are exclusively "fun". Both camps view their supported strategy as valid, hence why this argument hasn't changed over the past 7 years.

But yes, by definition, resource attrition is an attempt to eradicate a flag's ability to defend or attack an island; therefore, it is an action for the island(s) itself. While resource attrition is a multi-week strategy, that does not mean it holds exclusive rights to a "larger picture" strategy. You can be a sport blockader and still have comprehensive monthly plans, complex alliances, etc. Furthermore, you can (and YPP history has given us numerous players that are) a sport blockader that endorses resource attrition in certain circumstances. The game isn't black and white.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Chiptharip at Aug 22, 2011 4:07:41 PM]
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