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elbeejay

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BK Compasses, lets get exploiting? Reply to this Post
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I'm not even going to sugar-coat this one as some, "technique or exploit" stuff, it's day 2 with these things and it looks like some heavy exploitation is already going on.

So I job on a War Brig with several compasses, when I board the ship is at 30. Then about half of the ship leaves, and we head out to sea. At the first league point the compass is set down and a BK spawns, the rest of the ship is called back (post spawn), and we get to fight an Xebec spawned for a WB of 16 people, with a WB of 30 people.

I'm not sure if this is a common practice or what, but it strikes me as total exploitation of the BK compass system.

So um, discuss?
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by elbeejay at Apr 27, 2011 5:39:23 PM]
[Apr 27, 2011 5:38:40 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Abandonment

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You should probably have reported whoever was in charge of the vessel for exploitation of a possible coding oversight.
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[Apr 27, 2011 6:03:06 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
elbeejay

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Re: BK Compasses, lets get exploiting? Reply to this Post
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I was told that, "every major navver in hunter viri and sage is doing it.."

So I felt I'd come here where many of those navvers could come out and express their views on the subject. Especially since it is a new release, I'm not sure how this is viewed by OOO.

The release that prevents pirates from boarding once a vessel is in pursuit of you is fairly new I think. I'm fairly certain that Sweetiepiepi had once talked about having to keep a 7th person at the docks on a sloop pillage to prevent impossible spawns, and that took several years to change.
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[Apr 27, 2011 6:13:10 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nooblar

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Re: BK Compasses, lets get exploiting? Reply to this Post
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If the option is have 30 on deck, fight 160 on a GF, or have 15 on deck, spawn 45 to fight on a xebec, get back to 30 on deck, fight a 30 vs 45, i think pretty clearly no one is going to fight 160 with their 30 on deck. The new feature is, as always, broken on several ends, jumping on and off is just the way that lets you experience the new content. Fix spawn rates for real ships, then fix loopholes for oscillating ships.
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[Apr 27, 2011 6:16:42 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Timm22t

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Re: BK Compasses, lets get exploiting? Reply to this Post
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Thats why they do it
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Timm22t at Apr 27, 2011 7:09:24 PM]
[Apr 27, 2011 7:08:55 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
riku743

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[Apr 27, 2011 7:42:47 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nortoneer

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Re: BK Compasses, lets get exploiting? Reply to this Post
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I was on a Fan...fan...fan the new shippy thingy and had a Vargy compass we put it in and the 1st ship it spawned was a WB, it ported. 2nd one was a Junk, also ported. 3rd on ewas a MB yah..it ported too then we got bored....

Anyways... how come 12 people on a ship spawn 30, 18 , 20 people and 15 on a ship spawn 45 o.O
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[Apr 27, 2011 7:55:57 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Perenoel1

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Widow queen and barney both spawned WBs of 30 for10 people too. They basically are impossible to beat right now. The other BKs seem to be better though. I've been on ships that have beaten all but those 2 without anyone hopping.
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[Apr 27, 2011 9:19:15 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
randy_chimp

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Re: BK Compasses, lets get exploiting? Reply to this Post
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Is everyone forgetting that BKs are meant to be hard? You are meant to need a crew of elite swordfighters in order to win, not just a normal war brig with a few decent ones.
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[Apr 27, 2011 10:39:59 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Perenoel1

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Is everyone forgetting that BKs are meant to be hard? You are meant to need a crew of elite swordfighters in order to win, not just a normal war brig with a few decent ones.


Yeah, I'd like them to be hard, not impossible.
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[Apr 27, 2011 11:35:28 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sav_

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Re: BK Compasses, lets get exploiting? Reply to this Post
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I was doing the BK's on a full sloop, and what I would do was put down a compass, hit sail. If it was a deep red ship, I would turn around, take off the compass and put it back down when you hit the LP (not losing any people), 'till we got something reasonable. Worked pretty well, except the ones that you don't take get stuck around the LP's
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Sav_ at Apr 28, 2011 12:05:34 AM]
[Apr 27, 2011 11:54:26 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nooblar

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Not to be a pretentious jackass, but I don't think a WB filled with 30 instances of me would be able to beat a 160 bot GF, even if the hivemind managed to pull off a max-0. If it's too hard for me to feel confident about at least doing decently, it's too hard. Unless OOO is setting up ridiculously high end content, which I really don't see them as intending to do, they've made it harder than they wanted to.

Given a situation like earlier today, when the bots didn't have the capacity to shoot cannon balls, peoples reaction SHOULD have been 'Oh sweet, they are defenseless, easy wins' If the bot's can''t even shoot, and people's reaction is 'This is impossible, I hate it' then something is amiss.

In chronological order, they need to learn how to shoot, scale the numbers way way back on bots on deck, fix the issue with boats porting as they spawn, and THEN input some kind of deterrent to having people jump off and on. Right now however, the jumping off and on method is the only way 95+% of the player base is going to stand a chance to win a BK fight.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Nooblar at Apr 28, 2011 12:13:11 AM]
[Apr 28, 2011 12:11:14 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
PinGyp

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Re: BK Compasses, lets get exploiting? Reply to this Post
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people always have and always will play with might rings when it comes to bk. The only difference now is that you can do it more easily and gain rewards on your mains.

I have no clue how things went when they were regular expos taken from pillages, but pre-expos if you realistically wanted to win a BK, you had to take people on newly created alts with green names and even then have trouble.

Personally, I think this is for the best, what they did is they made content that is barely ever touched actually available to everyone. And I mean everyone, if years ago I wouldnt touch anyone below ren or even GM in duty and rumble/sf, now I can feel confident with respected people jobbing for me. If being able to allow more people gain access to content that theyve never experienced in years of gaming is exploit, then yes, I do admit to exploiting that. Ive had several people with great stats and years of pp under their belly go like , 'Yay, first BK for me!'.

Dear OOO, if you're going to do something about this exploit, make it so that it isn't necessary, rather than remove it. For the better of the PP anyway. People who don't normally pillage are now doing it.
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[Apr 28, 2011 1:57:49 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
BobJanova

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Re: BK Compasses, lets get exploiting? Reply to this Post
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It's clearly an exploit, but it is necessary because since the introduction of BK expos they have constantly been tuned too high, to the extent that I will never take one during a pillage because it's not worth losing 40% of my booty. The regular spawn for a full sloop seems to be MB, bagh or similar, which is fairly ridiculous. On a half-filled baghlah you get xebecs and MGs. That WB-GF is just incredible.
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[Apr 28, 2011 5:16:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
elbeejay

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I have no clue how things went when they were regular expos taken from pillages, but pre-expos if you realistically wanted to win a BK, you had to take people on newly created alts with green names and even then have trouble.

Personally, I think this is for the best, what they did is they made content that is barely ever touched actually available to everyone. And I mean everyone, if years ago I wouldnt touch anyone below ren or even GM in duty and rumble/sf, now I can feel confident with respected people jobbing for me. If being able to allow more people gain access to content that theyve never experienced in years of gaming is exploit, then yes, I do admit to exploiting that. Ive had several people with great stats and years of pp under their belly go like , 'Yay, first BK for me!'.


Clearly we played in different pre-expo worlds. I remember winning many BK battles on all sorts of ships without having greenie alts. I know I used to be able to solo them or win battles on sloops even before the expeditions, and I know Dingybeard used to win on baghlahs and war brigs while jobbing everyone who applied.
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[Apr 28, 2011 6:12:25 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
angel2512

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I was on a sloop of 6 yesterday and we spawned Madam Yu Jian on the Fanchuan first, won 6 vs 12 I think and got a kb. We ported to split the kb and went back out for Mdm YJ again, won that 6 vs 12 (again I think). Spawned Vargas next, but we lost 6 vs 15?, spawned Gretchen and won, then Finius and won. (All battles were max-0 / 0.5 except for Vargas where we got grappled too early by mistake. Didn't take note of which ship did Vargas / Gretchen / Finius used though)

We kept our sloop at 6, although we had crew changes several times during that entire trip. I should think it's possible to beat the BKs without having to exploit it by having extra jobbers jumping on after the ship spawned a BK.

Then again, we didn't try WQ nor Barney, so my conclusion about the BK compasses may be inaccurate.
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[Apr 28, 2011 6:29:29 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
PinGyp

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Re: BK Compasses, lets get exploiting? Reply to this Post
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Clearly we played in different pre-expo worlds. I remember winning many BK battles on all sorts of ships without having greenie alts. I know I used to be able to solo them or win battles on sloops even before the expeditions, and I know Dingybeard used to win on baghlahs and war brigs while jobbing everyone who applied.

And maybe there lay our problem, Im more reluctant to jobbing lower stats, thus we spawned way tough boats.
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[Apr 28, 2011 6:41:33 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
false_dmitri

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Re: BK Compasses, lets get exploiting? Reply to this Post
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That GF screenshot is nothing new. I engaged a ship like that with a 30 person WB long before BK hunts were removed. Lost, of course. :) Another trip we fought something like 20 vs. 80 and won handily, though that wasn't a BK. BKs frequently enjoyed a 1:3 to 1:4 advantage as far back as I can remember. It's a balanced encounter as long as the individual BK sailors are below average.

GFs are a special case, I think, because their full capacity is so ridiculously high above station requirements. You don't know whether you'll face 90 or 160 crew aboard one.

Anyway, doubling your might before engaging is an obvious exploit. BKs are supposed to be the ultimate pillage battle. I'm all for making it easier to include average swordfighters even on tough route pillages; see "pillage difficulty balance" thread in Game Design for overkill on that theme. But an optional fight, paid for and planned in advance, so that whoever's running the trip can pick the perfect moment for the BK to show up? Bring on the challenge. :)

The BK ship sizes and crew sizes do sound overpowered, though. 1:3 should be the worst bnav odds. Sloop vs. LS or MB qualify for that; sloop vs. baghlah is 1:6. Being outnumbered 1:4 or worse in a melee is a struggle, even versus easy bots. 1:3 is probably better there as well.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by false_dmitri at Apr 28, 2011 11:00:50 AM]
[Apr 28, 2011 10:59:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lotsofgoats

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Yea the whole spawn with X, fight with X+n equation never really jived with me when I played over on Midnight. This is a pretty extreme case of it. "It's necessary," is never an excuse to use an exploit. If "it's necessary," then you're supposed to get better or wait for things to be fixed.


Pretty ugly.
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[Apr 29, 2011 8:45:49 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Donsmythe

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Yea the whole spawn with X, fight with X+n equation never really jived with me when I played over on Midnight. This is a pretty extreme case of it. "It's necessary," is never an excuse to use an exploit. If "it's necessary," then you're supposed to get better or wait for things to be fixed.


Pretty ugly.


Yes, it's ugly. When you have players such as Tzz saying that the compass spawns are impossible to beat, then "get better" isn't an option. (Seriously, "über-puzzler" isn't a strong enough term to describe his talents.) When you are putting together melee teams of legendary+ people -- that's taking the top 5% of the ocean and nothing less -- and still unable to beat them, then there's a serious problem.

Hard is fine. Challenge is good. Impossible is stupid because it wastes developer time on a feature that will subsequently never be used and it wastes player time and frustrates them. Worse, it leads to players hunting for work-arounds/exploits to make the feature usable. Then you get to a point where even after it's fixed, the workaround has become entrenched as "the way you do this".
[Apr 29, 2011 12:45:55 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://don.yacktman.org/blog/    yackd [Link]  Go to top 
warp11

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Guess what, the excuse "We can't win without exploiting" doesn't lessen the fact that it's still an exploit.

Illegit, complain it at sight.

Solution, revise the spawns so it's possible to run these things without exploiting.
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Chaosrunner9



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BK bots are already strong, but they insist on them outnumbering you 3 to 1 as well? Ridiculous.
[Apr 29, 2011 3:51:30 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nooblar

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BK bots are already strong, but they insist on them outnumbering you 3 to 1 as well? Ridiculous.

3 to one is fine. A good group of SFers with a well navved boat can handle 3v1 often enough that it is a legitimate ratio. At 5v1 its stupidly high, at least if you're dealing with imperial bots who can still send screen filling attacks, with only half a board to work with on their side.
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[Apr 29, 2011 5:20:53 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
SRT0001

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example.. i was on a full WB.. very elite and the naver was as well

we put the compass and we spawn a GF long Bnav later it's max-0 and we grapple

On it is 159 bots... unless we're all ultimate we didn't even stand a chance,
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[Apr 29, 2011 6:15:31 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
marundel

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3 to one is fine. A good group of SFers with a well navved boat can handle 3v1 often enough that it is a legitimate ratio. At 5v1 its stupidly high, at least if you're dealing with imperial bots who can still send screen filling attacks, with only half a board to work with on their side.

The point is, I believe, that even a BK might should adjust with the player might. BKs should be a tough challenge for a shipload of Ultimates. BKs should scale to be a tough challenge for a shipload of greenies. The level of challenge should be relative - not restrictive. I know that I've been able to beat BKs while pillaging solo on a sloop with 3 bots... but it was a challenge (solo with three bots, I generally spawn a cutter or dhow with anywhere from 6 to 9 BKs on board.)

I tried out the compasses on Cobalt on one of my (comparably stat'd) alts the other day. I was piloting a sloop with 6 aboard. We spawned Finius on a cutter with 12. The sea battle went 6-3 (mostly because the cutter kept slamming himself into rocks - my piloting pretty much sucked on that fight), and we lost the fray.

I put a second compass down. I don't know what we spawned, because I got a note that said the compass inidcates that you should continue sailing straight ahead. Well, we did - and we got in a fight with an orange dhow... which wasn't our BK. We beat it, and I pulled up my chart to see the spawned BK sitting 2 LPs BEHIND us (had the compass sent us the wrong way, or had the battle interrupted the spawn and this was a new one? I don't know.) So I turned about, got to a LP and recharted. As we're steaming back to the spawn, I get the notice that it ported. 2 seconds later, I got "surprised" (attacked by a ship that was not displayed on the screen) by a junk (still not our BK.) We were outnumbered 13-6 (rumble) and got grappled early, but still won by a margin of 1 survivor. Continuing on, we got to the island before a new BK spawned, and two of the crew had to leave, so I ported, divvied, and logged off. The compass dusted this morning.

My observations:
- the spawn was inconvenient, only spawning within 1.5 LPs once in the four spawns that we got.
- the compass misdirected me to sail one way when the BK spawned behind me in the opposite direction.
- Although I was set to the default might settings, once the compass hit the table EVERY spawn was orange/red making it difficult to visually identify our BK.
- In addition, the non-BK orange/red spawn was more aggressive, targeting us in all but one case.
- the BK spawned at or close to island LPs, porting very quickly in two cases... kind of defeating the purpose I think. I would have preferred the spawn at least 1.5 LPs from any island, sailing towards me (after all, I bought the compass because I wanted the fight - not the chase.)
- Since I only got to fight one of the two BKs I paid for, and since I lost that fight, I don't know if the restock split would have covered the cost of the compass or not. The winnings we got from the two non-BK spawns (one orange and one red) did not cover the cost of even one of the compasses... much less the actual restocking cost, so I'm guessing BK booty is REALLY higher than red-spawn booty (although that hasn't been my experience on BK hunts prior to this release.)

If OOO can tweak the spawn behavior, I'll give the compasses another go - I don't think the might issue is related to the compasses at all... but rather is an overall BK issue.
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Talisker

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The point is, I believe, that even a BK might should adjust with the player might. BKs should be a tough challenge for a shipload of Ultimates. BKs should scale to be a tough challenge for a shipload of greenies


Wouldn't that just change the exploit?
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[Apr 30, 2011 10:12:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Chaosrunner9



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Trying to hunt BKs solo with 3 bots, Yu Jian spawned a Fanchuan with 12 brigands. Ugh.
[Apr 30, 2011 12:39:47 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
PinGyp

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Not sure what yer on about, BKs have always scaled to the might ring, to which green names dont even contribute, so unless thats been fixed too, the exploit is still there.
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[May 1, 2011 1:23:29 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
false_dmitri

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If the game uses player stats to set the BK melee ability, you can stack a ship with green alts of Ultimates and breeze through the battles. You could do that already, of course. The hop exploit is more popular because it makes impossible odds possible and because it lets players who don't have high SF or bnav skill challenge opponents who'd normally beat them easily.

Using alts puts the wrong name on your trinket, and it'll limit BK trophy opportunities when those are available (if they aren't already). However, that's hardly a deterrent if you're hunting for trading post trinkets.

I kind of wish the game would track player performance vs. bots silently behind the scenes. Something along the lines of average attack volume sent times average attack volume received, and average survival time versus n attack volume received. Then the game could scale the bots to that rather than the easily exploited SF rank or the exclusionist Sea Battle rating. People could still get around the tracking using alts, but it would be a less obvious option, and they'd need a fresh alt after every few battles. The rest of us would get better default scaling of enemies.
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[May 1, 2011 10:33:45 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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Re: BK Compasses, lets get exploiting? Reply to this Post
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Wait, do you complain for 159 ppl on a GF?
What do you learn? Dont fight a GF with a smaller ship then a WF?!

Its the same if you go out pillying...and complain about how the WB you PvP has 30 people your sloop only has 7?You have like no chance to win....Its your own problem if you fight a bigger ship, we all know a GF holds up to 159 ppl, so why waste your time with attacking it on a WB.
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Mezzo :D

Hanging out...
Avy by Masters!
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