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koonoruk



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since they want to attack a MB with one pirate and 4 bots moving wood with a WB with 20 monkeys on it not a half league out of port,, i call that blatent programmed theft
[Mar 31, 2011 11:15:44 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sagacious

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Systems like the Monkey boat were originally designed to deter players from certain styles of play, such as sailing commodities with another, empty ship to deal with any attackers. However the system is not perfect, and players who sail commodities should be aware of such risks.

If you're sailing particularly valuable commodities, it's a good idea to recruit a few players to help you get your cargo safely to its destination. Having real players on board will allow you to defend your ship better should it be attacked by unexpected enemies. The game provides a simple way to recruit players for this purpose (the "Trading" mode), and you won't have to pay them a fortune for their services. If what you are moving is valuable enough, it'll be worth spending some money to help ensure it doesn't get plundered along the way.

You can always submit a polite /bug report in-game if you experience problems with the monkey boat again. You're very unlikely to receive any of your lost commodities back, but any feedback you can provide on what the circumstances were when you were attacked can help the developers improve the system if you feel it is unfairly targeting you when you're sailing commodities.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Sagacious at Mar 31, 2011 12:09:20 PM]
[Mar 31, 2011 12:06:07 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
sweetnessc

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The monkey boat system is much worse than 'not perfect'. It's more an example of the 'oh my god what were they thinking' that makes players wonder if anyone on the staff team actually plays the game they make.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
[Mar 31, 2011 12:30:22 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cnuofesd

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I'm sure Cleaver & Co. are sitting laughing at their desks at the 200 units of wood they commandeered from you. OOO TAKING ALL MY MONEYS.

Theft I say!
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[Mar 31, 2011 1:45:02 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Roleni

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Monkey boats are actually bunches of OOO staff on break, having a prank.
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[Mar 31, 2011 2:44:15 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
SirCarl67

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IMO traders have a pretty easy life, I am fairly sure Merchant Brigs were not designed to be sailed solo though most of the time you can do a run without getting engaged, and if you do get engaged can often escape (OK probably not from monkeys but quite possible from your spawns). Profit margins on bulk goods are such that you turn in a healthy profit even if you do lose a battle, it is only if you get shot up bad a long way from shore and can't get crewmates / hearties to patch you up that you have problems form multiple losses.
Sloops and cutters are prety easy to escape even if you can't multi station and leave the sailing to the bots.

PVP against merchants is rare, a sloop full of hemp is hardly worth bothering with and will probably stop you getting the chests with a forage expo. Usually they are only done in a grudge or sense of justice (if people are moving commods in the reboot window and the attacker thinks this is an abuse of the system.

The main problem with monkeys is against the PVPer. You go hunting after a PVP merchant but when you try to engage they get monkeys and you are left without a battle. This acts as a deterance against PVPs and (whether due ot monkeys or not) I have been engaged far less by PVPers since monkeys were introduced. This actually helps the merchant trader as it is only when they are engaged by a human ship that they are endanger by anything stronger than their own spawn (PVP or monkeys).

I was once running a bake-off event and to reduce the chance of getting engaged by trouble makers ran the event at an uncolonised island. I made the mistake using a ship that was already at the island to engage the bake-off ship which was stocked at pillaging level (something like 500 CBs and 75rum) when we tried to engage it got monkeys and I was left on a GF with 30 top puzzlers without a ship to engage. To ensure it didn't happen again we had to toss the stock over the side. Admittedly such happenings are rare and coud have been got round by ensuring both ships were empty but it does show the occurances of monkeys in places OOO never intended.
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Apollo tells ye "If you're ok for me to do one [bake-off], I'll go with that."
[Mar 31, 2011 5:09:04 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
sweetnessc

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The stock's a red herring, same thing happens to bakeoff ships with no stock. Traders on bulk commods have a tedious enough life already without dealing with merch brigs staffed with 20. If you filled your mbrig with that many people, the profits would be well into the negatives. Profits on all oceans aren't healthy enough to take a loss on all bulk commods in addition to the costs of sailing, and definitely not worth the opportunity cost of not moving commods at all.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
[Mar 31, 2011 6:06:55 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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IMO traders have a pretty easy life,

Trading has a skill/knowledge threshold. If you know what you are doing and are good enough at sails (or maybe dnav), you will rarely lose stock and can make good PoE. Below that threshold, you will either lose enough to the brigands if you solo, or pay enough to jobbers to end up barely making a profit.
You can outrun monkey ships in a MB when you are soloing. Or, at least, I've done it once, PvP attacks are pretty rare and I avoid shipping bulk goods.

 
I am fairly sure Merchant Brigs were not designed to be sailed solo

Neither were real sloops.

 
Profit margins on bulk goods are such that you turn in a healthy profit even if you do lose a battle,

Eh?

I've found a few good trade routes for bulk goods, but for the most part, the profit is really really thin. For the most part, the spread between what you can buy on one island and have the <merchant> bots sell to you on another really isn't that large, and bulk goods are, well bulk, and you can't put that much on a MB.

 
it is only if you get shot up bad a long way from shore and can't get crewmates / hearties to patch you up that you have problems form multiple losses.

If you know what you are doing, you can repair by a league point, with just the bots.
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[Mar 31, 2011 6:27:21 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
SirCarl67

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Sorry I wasn't very clear in my OP.

Profit margins are reduced because they are low risk,but even so are reasonable. Someone who can sail at about master level and bnav well enough to know how to run away can run a sloop (and probably a cutter) solo with little risk of losing stock. With mid bulk goods (eg Iron) you can do a 15 league run for a profit of 4 a unit of iron (on a sloop this is 6k profit for about 25 min sailing (plus the time gathering bid tickets) a cutter will treble that (if they can afford the stock) and you might need to sell it is a few blocks)

On an MB you can make 5 or 6 per unit with wood and probably about 2 with hemp/cane. A 3 or 4 league with take less than 10 min and will when running wood will make 2500 to 3000. Pay 2 sailors 50 per league each and lose 10% in a battle to bots and you should still be in profit by 1000 to 1500.

What I don't like is that on each ocean (at least doub ones not sure about sub) 90% of trade takes place on a single island. Pirates are too lazy to shop in several islands when they will only save about 10% buy doing so (often 1 or 2% after adding the doub fee).

If to transport goods by sea you expected to lose a significant proportion of your cargo unless you hired 5 people on a sloop and 20 on an MB (and the algoritm for bots worked ina similar way requiring a huge premium to risk taking their goods long distances) hemp might trade for 2 on islands where is spawns and 12 where it does not making it very attractive to start a weaving business there. Tan Cloth similarly would be very expensive to transport so tailors wanting to attact chroma buyers would also base themselves their.

Colours requiring other commodities make the decisions about locating stalls much more interesting. Ids there a niche market for an apoth on an island spawning madder specialising in red dye? If so what about a weaver specialising in red cloth?

I must admit I havn't thought it right through, for example would you need herbs an minerals to be made heavier so it is easier to transport partially manufactured goods compared to raw materials?
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Apollo tells ye "If you're ok for me to do one [bake-off], I'll go with that."
[Apr 1, 2011 3:38:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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This is rapidly derailing into GD territory, but...
 
Profit margins are reduced because they are low risk,but even so are reasonable. Someone who can sail at about master level and bnav well enough to know how to run away can run a sloop (and probably a cutter) solo with little risk of losing stock.

Master standing means you are better than 75% of all sailors, and I suspect that is on the low edge of the skill/knowledge threshold that I mentioned, my guess would have been Renowned (better than 85% of the players). That's pretty restrictive for an area that, in real life, would be where most OiC's would *start* their careers sailing the seas.

 
{...}Iron) you can do a 15 league run for a profit of 4 a unit of iron (on a sloop this is 6k profit for about 25 min sailing {...} On an MB you can make 5 or 6 per unit with wood and probably about 2 with hemp/cane. A 3 or 4 league with take less than 10 min and will when running wood will make 2500 to 3000. Pay 2 sailors 50 per league each and lose 10% in a battle to bots and you should still be in profit by 1000 to 1500.

I know of no such runs on Cobalt, and I'm pretty certain that the tools I use to find profitable trade runs would find them very quickly. I have noticed that PCT/PCTB/YARRG has shown over the years that Viridian trades are much more profitable. I'm not sure why. (Oh, one thing you left out of your calculations, especially for MBs, is the swabbie costs to send the ship back. )

 
What I don't like is that on each ocean (at least doub ones not sure about sub) 90% of trade takes place on a single island. Pirates are too lazy to shop in several islands when they will only save about 10% buy doing so (often 1 or 2% after adding the doub fee).

I've heard that is true on some green oceans, it is not true on Cobalt. But, even if it was, all that would mean is that the competition from a large number of shopkeepers on one island have driven the price down and it is good for the vast majority of pirates that not shopkeepers or traders.


 
If to transport goods by sea you expected to lose a significant proportion of your cargo unless you hired 5 people on a sloop and 20 on an MB{...}

A jobber who is doing a trade run can not be pillaging at the same time. I don't think it would be good for the game to create a huge new demand for jobbers.

 
Colours requiring other commodities make the decisions about locating stalls much more interesting. Ids there a niche market for an apoth on an island spawning madder specialising in red dye? If so what about a weaver specialising in red cloth?

It appears to me that this was kind of OOO's thoughts when the originally designed the game, but it doesn't work out at all in practice. People don't want red/red clothes, or purple/purple rapiers. To give people what they want, *someone* has to end up sailing all over the ocean, whether that is to collect blue cloth to go with the easy red on your island, or to collect elderberries to make your own blue cloth. To make most high end swords on cobalt/viridian, you need to collect minerals from several parts of the ocean, to make any two of the high end swords, you need to cover the entire ocean on your trade runs. There are a few such exceptions, such as hemp oil and booze, but not many.

The game would have to be radically redesigned for there to be one place in the ocean where you could buy swords cheap, and another area of the ocean where you could buy clothes cheap. It would have to be a different radical redesigned for one area to have cheap skull daggers and another to have cheap falchions.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[Apr 1, 2011 4:23:25 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
SirCarl67

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I suspect that if a large percentage of commods was lost then for purchasing items the highest value commod would dominate. Falchions would probably be cheapest near the masuyite spawn unless you want one including black, or white enamel in which case islands near the sass / yarrow spawn would undercut it. You might well be able to make competitive skull daggers near the chalcocite or the Papagoite spawn. If you want Purple, white clothes then head to the pokeweed island.

You are right though that this would a radical redesign to an extent not seen since the global purse and I can't see it happening hence I am not going to put it in GD.
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Apollo tells ye "If you're ok for me to do one [bake-off], I'll go with that."
[Apr 1, 2011 4:39:14 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
sweetnessc

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Yeah, your economics don't work on Midnight either. When I was doing it you could get ~2.5 poe per unit on a small quantity of iron, and 1.5 poe less costs on the rest of it on a cost of ~10.5, which means a single loss at 10% is roughly your profit margin, but a load took 1-3 weeks to sell off at those margins, and more than a load a week would crash the entire market. It was really restricted to about once a month to be able to secure a decent margin. There were 9+fee poe spawns but the longhaul distances meant it wasn't worth the potential extra 1 poe, even with zero losses.

However, I'd very much like to know which ocean you're playing on so I can come fund some subs that way. :)
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by sweetnessc at Apr 1, 2011 4:48:15 PM]
[Apr 1, 2011 4:46:49 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
SirCarl67

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Master standing means you are better than 75% of all sailors, and I suspect that is on the low edge of the skill/knowledge threshold that I mentioned, my guess would have been Renowned (better than 85% of the players). That's pretty restrictive for an area that, in real life, would be where most OiC's would *start* their careers sailing the seas.


Sorry I forgot to answer this again thisis form a doub ocean point of view things might be different on a sub ocean.

You can be either master sails or master rig or (at my estimate) renowned Dnav. While there is considerable overlap I would estimate about 40% of pirates fit into at least one of these categories. Take out the new players that are sill learning the puzzles and don't (or at least shouldn't) yet have an O badge and you are now including more than half of officers and it isn't so elite. Officers who's skill's lie in other areas can do other things (lead pillages, OIC, MAA, etc)
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Apollo tells ye "If you're ok for me to do one [bake-off], I'll go with that."
[Apr 1, 2011 5:27:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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You can be either master sails or master rig or (at my estimate) renowned Dnav. While there is considerable overlap I would estimate about 40% of pirates fit into at least one of these categories. Take out the new players that are sill learning the puzzles and don't (or at least shouldn't) yet have an O badge and you are now including more than half of officers and it isn't so elite. Officers who's skill's lie in other areas can do other things (lead pillages, OIC, MAA, etc)

Yes, having a choice of skills does help. (I still am not sure that Master is enough, but that's somewhat beside the point.)

However, you can't just throw out large parts of the player base to show that trading isn't restrictive. If you throw out everyone but those that are successful traders, you get the tautology that 100% of the players can be successful traders.

Anyone can be a jobber, or join a tournament, or fight skellies, those are inclusive. As you point out, anyone with an O badge (or subbed) and a ship can run a pillage. Indeed, due to the fact that the game will adjust brigand strength down so you have a 70% win rate, and brigands will grapple for you, just bout everyone can often make at least a little PoE pillaging. (Sadly, a bad bnavver can often even make more than a good jobber. :-< ) There really isn't much, if any, threshold on skill/knowledge for bnav like there is on trading.
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[Apr 1, 2011 6:31:54 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tigsham

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Im not really an expert on trading but i do move stock from all over the ocean for my stalls, and i have found that if i use a MB which holds less but a fair amount, i can sail decently with a friend dnaving and me sailing and rarely get engaged on evading.

It may take longer to move your stock on a MB but the risk is less and the amount of ppl u need to help is less, just ask a friend that is willing to spend some time with u for free.

The difference it makes is amazing, soloing 6 leagues i got engaged 5 times, with a dnaver and a sailer i didnt have to turn once.

Hope that helps a little
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[Apr 14, 2011 4:07:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
marundel

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Im not really an expert on trading but i do move stock from all over the ocean for my stalls, and i have found that if i use a MB which holds less but a fair amount, i can sail decently with a friend dnaving and me sailing and rarely get engaged on evading.

It may take longer to move your stock on a MB but the risk is less and the amount of ppl u need to help is less, just ask a friend that is willing to spend some time with u for free.

The difference it makes is amazing, soloing 6 leagues i got engaged 5 times, with a dnaver and a sailer i didnt have to turn once.

Hope that helps a little

I will echo this - soling a WB on a 4LP run, I get targeted at least twice. Adding my wife as a puzzler (she carps allowing me to put the extra bot on sails) reduces that to 0 on a 4LP route, and limits it to a single targeting on the 8LP run - that's with me dnavving Excel/Incred.
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[Apr 14, 2011 10:41:52 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.thehomebrewstore.com    meadbrewer [Link]  Go to top 
tanonev

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You can be either master sails or master rig or (at my estimate) renowned Dnav. While there is considerable overlap I would estimate about 40% of pirates fit into at least one of these categories. Take out the new players that are sill learning the puzzles and don't (or at least shouldn't) yet have an O badge and you are now including more than half of officers and it isn't so elite. Officers who's skill's lie in other areas can do other things (lead pillages, OIC, MAA, etc)

Yes, having a choice of skills does help. (I still am not sure that Master is enough, but that's somewhat beside the point.)

However, you can't just throw out large parts of the player base to show that trading isn't restrictive. If you throw out everyone but those that are successful traders, you get the tautology that 100% of the players can be successful traders.


I distinctly recall doing solo sloop trade runs where for the last 10-20 leagues I went "eh, I don't feel like dnavving anymore," left the station, and went up into the crow's nest and did homework. If I stopped looking at the screen for too long and got engaged, then it was a simple matter (barring pathological starting points) to spend my bnav tokens running away. (I never take a station when I bnav during a trade run. I suck at bnav in basically all settings. I still escape easily at least 90% of the time.) Sometimes I'd be occupied enough to just let the ship ramp up only with bots after that engagement, and I'd still make it through unscathed. Now, if a player actually *can't* sail, rig, or dnav, as opposed to just being lazy like me, then their might ring should be low enough that disengaging from every fight should be easy to pull off. Of course, trading by means of disengaging from a whole bunch of encounters is much slower than trading by means of sailing or duty navigation, but this means it's still doable by an all-Able player.
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[Apr 14, 2011 5:44:15 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.alpha-slash.com [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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it was a simple matter (barring pathological starting points) to spend my bnav tokens running away.

You are not the only one I've heard do such things, but I tried tested it on sloops, and I found quite different results. The time period that I tested it was soon after the pillaging revamp that OOO did a while back (2 years?), when they cut the ramp and did a bunch of other things. How long has it been since you tested this?

Oh, on MBs, you certainly can't do it. Or, at least, you can't do it with my stats. Almost every time I'm snagged by a brigand on a MB, it is a close call, the brigands don't slow down, they get more moves than I can generate doing excellent/incredible on sails. Monkey ships are very hard too.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[Apr 14, 2011 7:57:53 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nooblar

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Barring terrible starter spots, i've also been able to outrun bots on any sloop I was moving, without having any humans on stations. MBs i'm not sure about, but i'd theorize one sailor with a high EX should be able to get you at least a move and a half a turn, if a bot is providing backup.
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[Apr 14, 2011 8:45:24 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tanonev

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it was a simple matter (barring pathological starting points) to spend my bnav tokens running away.

You are not the only one I've heard do such things, but I tried tested it on sloops, and I found quite different results. The time period that I tested it was soon after the pillaging revamp that OOO did a while back (2 years?), when they cut the ramp and did a bunch of other things. How long has it been since you tested this?

Oh, on MBs, you certainly can't do it. Or, at least, you can't do it with my stats. Almost every time I'm snagged by a brigand on a MB, it is a close call, the brigands don't slow down, they get more moves than I can generate doing excellent/incredible on sails. Monkey ships are very hard too.


The last time I remember doing it on a sloop was nearly 3 years ago. The last time I remember doing it on a cutter was less than a year ago (who knows, maybe it's easier on a cutter). It doesn't surprise me that it wouldn't work on a MB, but that's not relevant to the point that it IS possible to start out trading while being all Able. We obviously shouldn't expect an all-Able trader to be able to trade using whatever ship he wants with whatever timetable he wants; we just need to establish that he has some way of playing the trading game.
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[Apr 15, 2011 5:26:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.alpha-slash.com [Link]  Go to top 
false_dmitri

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Nooblar wrote: 
MBs i'm not sure about, but i'd theorize one sailor with a high EX should be able to get you at least a move and a half a turn, if a bot is providing backup.

Yes. Still helps a lot if helm takes sails alongside them in combat.
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[Apr 15, 2011 10:39:45 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
darkages777



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Mmmm yesterday I was attacked by 2 Orange WB with 26-28 bots in them and It was only a 3 league trip...

There were 6 jobbers abboard plus a crewmate..
[Apr 26, 2011 8:50:59 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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