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Maskforum

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How much inspiration is too much inspiration? Reply to this Post
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Picture I came across on the internet:
-- Picture moved and I do not have editing software to remove a swear from another version. This is a flipped ans stretched image or the original.



Verziga's 'Christmas In Town' portrait background:


Edit: Picture moved. New url.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Maskforum at Mar 11, 2011 9:50:25 PM]
[Mar 8, 2011 9:48:27 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
mr_googol

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The similarities are striking. Are you suggesting some random fool on the internet copied Verziga's background?
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[Mar 8, 2011 10:00:33 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
DeepNine

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Re: How much inspiration is too much inspiration? Reply to this Post
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First of all, no.

Second, we're really complaining about plagiarism from www.memegenerator.net? Really?
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[Mar 8, 2011 11:33:59 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
funnybones

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Re: How much inspiration is too much inspiration? Reply to this Post
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plagiarism is plagiarism
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[Mar 8, 2011 11:37:33 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
sweetnessc

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And not plagiarism is likewise not plagiarism. There's way more than enough piratification and original elements to pass that test with flying colours.
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[Mar 8, 2011 11:41:44 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
JennyBrie

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I'm too lazy to flip the first image horizontal, but that is pretty g-d close.
[Mar 9, 2011 4:09:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
marundel

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If "He's My Lord" wasn't plagiarizing "He's So Fine", then there's enough difference IMO.

...and if you recognize the court case, happy half-century :)
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[Mar 9, 2011 5:58:14 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.thehomebrewstore.com    meadbrewer [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Re: How much inspiration is too much inspiration? Reply to this Post
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Sweetiepiepi wrote: 
There's way more than enough piratification and original elements to pass that test with flying colours.

It doesn't matter how much stuff you add to a copyrighted work, the final result is still a derivative work. This means that the derived work is copyrighted by both the original artist, and the person who made the modifications, so in order for the new work to be legally used, *both* parties must give permission.

All works created almost anywhere in the world are automatically copyrighted under the Berne Convention, so neither the original artist, nor the person who created the derived work need to do anything to gain a copyright. For most things, however, it is rarely worth the original creator's time to pursue legal action.

Pizzahutpete wrote: 
If "He's My Lord" wasn't plagiarizing "He's So Fine", then there's enough difference IMO.

...and if you recognize the court case, happy half-century :)

Uh, I think you mean "my sweet lord", and Harrison lost the case.
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[Mar 9, 2011 6:43:34 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
StuManchu

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hahaha that window is almost exactly the same. Awesome.
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[Mar 9, 2011 6:53:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
false_dmitri

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This is the original flipped and rescaled to approximate the YPP background:


This is the same image with the edges of the YPP background overlaid:

I managed to chop a bit off the top of both images, but that shouldn't matter. :)

Obviously, the buildings at the edges and the general compositional elements were derived directly from the painting. Just as obviously, nearly everything in the YPP background was redrawn and given fresh details by hand. It's not a tracing except in the broadest possible sense.

A couple basic questions for anyone concerned about copyrights. Who is the actual creator of the image? I doubt it's memegenerator.net. :) For all I know, the original painting dates back over 100 years. And is this an obscure or well-known image? It could be a piratey homage rather than a sneaky "borrowing".

Even if I had that info, I wouldn't weigh in on whether this is "too much" derivation for a background contest. It's a nice background for a portrait and better than I could do with or without a source image.
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[Mar 9, 2011 9:11:24 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
funnybones

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And not plagiarism is likewise not plagiarism. There's way more than enough piratification and original elements to pass that test with flying colours.

No. I don't know Verziga, so I don't want to badmouth them, but tracing and then pirating it up, then claiming its your own work - that's not even ambiguous.
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[Mar 9, 2011 9:18:45 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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This image shows up a lot of places around the net.

A few places that claim to give credit are:
Holliday Heaven
Crazy Frankenstein credit: "DarinK"

Doing a google image search for "christmas tree on street" shows a lot of copies. More can be found by using google's "find similar images" links.
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[Mar 9, 2011 10:19:01 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Verziga

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The image in question was not taken from memegenerator (which I've never even heard of until now) or from anywhere else on the internet but from a VERY antiquated album/cd collection of stock images bought by the company I work for long before I started there. Therefore...royalties have been paid and the image is free to use. As far as I'm aware...no copyrights have been broken. It is, of course, possible that somebody has since bought the rights to the image and if that's the case then I'll happily pay them whatever royalties they require.

Granted...the buildings are traced and then 'pirated' up, I have no wish to deny that. Simple fact is, I thought it was a beautifully composed image that would make a nice portrait background in what is essentially a 'friendly' little competition in what is essentially a 'friendly' little pirate game. Had I known that people were going to be quite so offended by this then maybe I would've thought twice about it.

Funnybones...please can you show me where I claimed this as being all my own work? The image that was entered into the competition may have major elements taken from another picture but as false dmitri says, it has all been re-drawn by hand and given fresh details and nowhere have I claimed anything otherwise. No evil intentions were present...just the wish to contribute to the game in a positive way. I apologise if I've offended you by doing this. If it really upsets you that much then take it up with Apollo. I'll willingly accept whatever outcome he sees fit.
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Verziga of Emerald
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Lord of the flag 'League of Light'
Too busy to play...too busy to draw. Stupid job :(
[Mar 9, 2011 10:35:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
RRueda

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The image in question was not taken from memegenerator (which I've never even heard of until now) or from anywhere else on the internet but from a VERY antiquated album/cd collection of stock images bought by the company I work for long before I started there. Therefore...royalties have been paid and the image is free to use. As far as I'm aware...no copyrights have been broken. It is, of course, possible that somebody has since bought the rights to the image and if that's the case then I'll happily pay them whatever royalties they require.

Granted...the buildings are traced and then 'pirated' up, I have no wish to deny that. Simple fact is, I thought it was a beautifully composed image that would make a nice portrait background in what is essentially a 'friendly' little competition in what is essentially a 'friendly' little pirate game. Had I known that people were going to be quite so offended by this then maybe I would've thought twice about it.

Funnybones...please can you show me where I claimed this as being all my own work? The image that was entered into the competition may have major elements taken from another picture but as false dmitri says, it has all been re-drawn by hand and given fresh details and nowhere have I claimed anything otherwise. No evil intentions were present...just the wish to contribute to the game in a positive way. I apologise if I've offended you by doing this. If it really upsets you that much then take it up with Apollo. I'll willingly accept whatever outcome he sees fit.


Well said !!
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[Mar 9, 2011 10:53:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Funnybones...please can you show me where I claimed this as being all my own work?

See: Art:Portrait Background Contest

The very first rule is: "Entrants will create original backgrounds from their original artwork ....". By submitting the background, you are claiming that it is your original art work.

Edit: If you can dig up that CD of clip art, and let OOO know the name and any legal stuff that the CD claims about re-use, that may well help them decide if there are legal problems with this image. I'm sure they would rather not be hit with a DMCA take down notice.

Edit 2: You wrote: "Had I known that people were going to be quite so offended by this then maybe I would've thought twice about it." I, for one, am not offended. I would just rather OOO stay out of legal trouble, as they can easily be large time and money holes.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by wrs1864b at Mar 9, 2011 11:03:34 AM]
[Mar 9, 2011 10:54:49 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
funnybones

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Funnybones...please can you show me where I claimed this as being all my own work? The image that was entered into the competition may have major elements taken from another picture but as false dmitri says, it has all been re-drawn by hand and given fresh details and nowhere have I claimed anything otherwise. No evil intentions were present...just the wish to contribute to the game in a positive way. I apologise if I've offended you by doing this. If it really upsets you that much then take it up with Apollo. I'll willingly accept whatever outcome he sees fit.


Did you disclose when you posted it that you had copied from a stock image? If you did, I assume everyone was fine with that and I guess that the portrait competition just has different standards than I am used to. But if you didn't, then it's assumed that it's all your own work, as Algol said, and you violated the rules of the portrait competition.

Geez, people on this forum think some pretty strange things. This is just straight up obviously plagiarism. And it isn't about law or the rights of the original image's owner or offending me, its about your integrity and the integrity of the competition.
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The poor complain; they always do. But that's just idle chatter.
Our system brings rewards to all. At least, to all who matter.

[Mar 9, 2011 11:15:01 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
false_dmitri

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The law behind use of the image matters a great deal because of the legal problems Three Rings would get into by hosting and "selling" someone else's artwork without permission. I imagine that for practical reasons, they'd much rather deal with whether a legal adaptation breaks the spirit of the competition than whether such an adaptation is legal at all. For a case like this one, they might choose to err on the side of caution. But that's for them to say.
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On hiatus. :(
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by false_dmitri at Mar 9, 2011 11:29:58 AM]
[Mar 9, 2011 11:28:17 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Verziga

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I've taken it up with Apollo. From now on I'll deal with him over it and won't be replying here again for fear of making the situation worse than it needs to be.
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Verziga of Emerald
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Lord of the flag 'League of Light'
Too busy to play...too busy to draw. Stupid job :(
[Mar 9, 2011 11:49:14 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
RRueda

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Speaking about Inspiration...

Does this apply to what are you saying...???

Pishkirlin took an image as REFERENCE for his background here and nobody told him anything about plagiarism so that makes me think that you guys have double standards about what you claim here.

Let the OMs explain what 'original work' mean or if maybe it doesn't necessarily involve 'creating' brand new items from scratch and that you may use already existing elements to apply into your composition.

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[Mar 9, 2011 11:58:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
StuManchu

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^^ also let's be honest there are memetic and archetypal images that are absolutely unavoidable in whatever setting you deal with ^^

That was a really good post to make, good for you.

A friend of mine did a graphic design final project on the dangers of commonly available source images and whether or not being googleable is tantamount to license their use.

But his twist was taking a bunch of self-portraits in which he was made/dressed up to look like a variety of stereotypes (like "day laborer" or "drag queen") and photochopped himself into the pictures he was able to search up.

Still wondering what his point was...
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Was once Stuyvesant

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[Edit 1 times, last edit by StuManchu at Mar 9, 2011 12:01:09 PM]
[Mar 9, 2011 12:00:23 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Verziga wrote: 
I've taken it up with Apollo. From now on I'll deal with him over it and won't be replying here again for fear of making the situation worse than it needs to be.

This is a very good approach to the problem. It is totally up to OOO to weigh the risks and for them to decide what they want to do.

Mighty wrote: 
Pishkirlin took an image as REFERENCE for his background here and nobody told him anything about plagiarism so that makes me think that you guys have double standards about what you claim here.

Let the OMs explain what 'original work' mean or if maybe it doesn't necessarily involve 'creating' brand new items from scratch and that you may use already existing elements to apply into your composition.

I do not read the events forum, let alone that thread in the events forum, so of course I didn't not say anything. Pishkirlin's entry (a redrawing of Edward Hughes' Valkyrie's Vigil) was not selected as a winner, it is quite possible it was not selected for that reason.

And, no, it is not up to the OMs to decide what "original work" is, it is up to the courts. There are reasonably well established standards for what "original work" means and I suspect that Pishkirlin's would be declared a derivative work also. Remember, this is an area of law that has very little do with being "reasonable" or "common sense", and very much to do with rich/powerful copyright holders (indirectly) writing laws to give them the most power they can get.

Edit: oh, Hughes' painting is *probably* out of copyright, so Pishkirlin's work would probably be a derivative work of an imaging in the public domain, so it would be legal. Earlier in this thread, false_dmitri raised the point about whether the christmas tree image was from "over 100 years ago", for this very reason.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by wrs1864b at Mar 9, 2011 12:25:31 PM]
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bronzebeard

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I don't really care about the issue of plagiarism or what might or might not be public domain (given that I've seen plenty of intent posts too where people have used images they shouldn't have) but if a competition is for original work, there really shouldn't be that much copying. In fact it's so close that I could probably enter a writing contest with a story called Booty Island about the adventures of a Jim Dawkins.
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DaneT

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Speaking of which, what's hit the public domain this year?
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[Mar 9, 2011 3:26:11 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dylan

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Appropirate
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Roleni

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It doesn't matter how much stuff you add to a copyrighted work, the final result is still a derivative work.

Too bad this doesn't seem to apply to bad writers taking plots from good books. >_>
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Cnuofesd

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There is nothing in the rules stating that all work must be 100% origional (I think?)

Although it has definately borrowed ideas, I'm pretty sure the origional artist won't be... "OMGOMGOMG SOMEBODY STOLE MY DRAWING AND WON SOMETHING THAT IS WORTHLESS CRAP TO ME IN AN MMORPG. THIS IS TOTALLY UNNACEPPTABULLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"


Grow up a bit, accept siht happens. I'd much rather OOO dealt with ingame issues than petty jealousy problems.

(No I didn't swear, I typed "This backwards)
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Barrister

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There is nothing in the rules stating that all work must be 100% origional (I think?)


Did you even bother to look at the rules? The very first sentence of the very first rule begins, "Entrants will create original backgrounds from their original artwork...."
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Barrister at Mar 11, 2011 9:39:32 AM]
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Cnuofesd

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There are many interpretations of what the event creator meant by origional.

It could be saying all artwork must be drawn by the entrant, not nessacarily commenting on the source of the idea for it. I think we must use reasonable judgment when looking at the phrase origionality. Of course it's not okay to take a picture line for line, self draw it and call it origional - but I think this is an example that falls on the acceptable side of the grey area.

The ambiguity of the word "Origional" allows for misunderstandings between people, though it is understandable why a detailed definition was not posted, since it would be needlessly detailed and a waste of time for the person running to comment on every single aspect and factor to consider.

Personally I interpret the changes made to the generic picture of a christmas tree with snow around to be enough to first picture so it is sufficiently origional to not be a problem.

It is up to the OM running this to draw the line on what is "Sufficiently origional". I also feel that they do not have to justify what is and what is not.

I am also nervous about entering a discussion using technical terms against somebody with the forum name "Barrister" ):
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sweetnessc

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I guess this whole discussion has highlighted the biggest problem with the area - that the conclusion tends to seem obvious to each of the viewers, despite them coming to directly opposing conclusions. Much like the old judicial definition of obscenity - 'I know it when I see it'.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
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Speaking of which, what's hit the public domain this year?

Nothing newer than Steamboat Willie.
Thanks, Disney.
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