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Shuranthae

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Bilge Vegas Reply to this Post
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They need to be worth more. Currently they're just not worth the effort, especially when you compare the differences of a Bingo vs Vegas in any other puzzle.
[Mar 17, 2005 9:17:40 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
xaniac



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I agree, it seems to have been this way since the purge of the greenies records a couple months back. I used to love bilge, now I loathe it ;(
[Mar 17, 2005 9:19:54 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Oorlian

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Bah. A Vegas is just a Sea Donkey with a shiny hat.
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I make my way across the sea, upon a mighty brig,
Searching for something lost to me: a pirate-worthy sig.
[Mar 17, 2005 10:35:11 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.kevan.org/brain.cgi?Oorlian    Oorlian [Link]  Go to top 
drc500free

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They aren't significantly different from a donkey. The difference isn't a chain or a platform or a step in a reaction - it's the length of one of the rows. The effort isn't really much different from a donkey - if you have a donkey with one of your two pieces in the two rows above it, you can make a vegas almost as easily as a donkey. If you don't, then it's not worth trying to set up.

Though if they're going to be called 'Vegas!" for something that trivially different, they should be worth a little more. I'd guess half of my donkeys have a top pair so they could be a vegas, and I bother to do it on maybe half of those. There are big jumps between doubles, bingos, and donkeys, and they play very differently. There just isn't a real one for the vegas - i give it maybe 3 or 4 moves over a donkey, if that.

What we should have is the "Vegas^2!" for 3x3x5x5. Those are insanely hard to set up - you've got to get a top-side donkey first. I don't even go for them even when I could, because there's no benefit to going past Vegas.

EDIT: what Oorlian said.
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-Darvid
sundancer wrote: 
will you please explain to me one more time why it would not be acceptable to blockade us?
Squid wrote: 
Because I shouldn't have to go through all that effort.

[Mar 17, 2005 10:49:42 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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Point well missed guys. Currently Donkeys aren't even really worth the effort. If you go pure Bingo you'll have an easier time and a better score. It's the only puzzle where easier is better.
[Mar 17, 2005 11:27:23 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Oorlian

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I guess that depends on just how much effort it takes to make them. I try to Bingo consistently, but lately it just hasn't been enough. To get the splashy pump I've had to look for Donkey possibilities...not creating them from nothing but noticing where one more piece in the right place gives me a row with 2 sets of 3, and working from there.

Another thing that's been confusing me about the score is thus: sometimes my pump will fall from yellow to green as I'm setting up a bingo. In the past, setting that bingo off (one or two moves later) always brought it back to yellow. These days it doesn't seem to do that consistently. It just...I used to have a very good feel for what you had to do to get that pump moving, and suddenly it isn't the same.

I'm not complaining, really. I guess I'll file this under the "wish I could watch Shur puzzle for 10 minutes to see if he plays the same way I do" section.

Edit:

http://www.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?p=229713#229713

So what's changed? Or are you playing the puzzle differently now?
(Note: Not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to find out what's going on)
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I make my way across the sea, upon a mighty brig,
Searching for something lost to me: a pirate-worthy sig.
[Mar 18, 2005 12:28:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.kevan.org/brain.cgi?Oorlian    Oorlian [Link]  Go to top 
drc500free

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I don't think it really makes a difference - it's just different styles of play. It's so easy to keep a sparkly bilge, that the only thing that matters is how quickly you get it there, and then not screwing up for an extended period of time. Personally, I find this much easier to do by pushing the donkeys a little more to cover bingo mistakes - I wasn't even ult until I started doing them, now I'm generally 2nd-4th in my arch.

Bingos still are the meat of it, but any time I get a 3-2-1 row, I set up the bingo to trigger in the middle. There's usually the needed piece 3 or 4 rows down, and it's a trivial number of moves to pop it into place for a donkey, which gives me a nice sparkly buffer. If I get too caught up in trying to do donkeys, I shoot myself in the foot and I have to kepp my score in between high enough that when a donkey goes out of the frame I don't drop to golden.

Beyond the fact that I make bingo mistakes, I prefer playing that way just because it makes the game less monotonous. It's a little closer to chess than checkers this way. Making donkeys worth a little more could make things more interesting, and making vegases worth a lot more would be like adding another piece. I like the current challenge of making an efficient donkey, but if I got another move or two bonus for it I certainly wouldn't complain.

Again, right now the challenge is getting that first really efficient bingo or 4x4 in to get up to sparkly in the 5-15 seconds. Keeping it there really isn't very tough with the current ratings - lots of people seem to have just given up on bilge, and the cutoff for sparkly is pretty low. But I definitely can't do it with just bingos.
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-Darvid
sundancer wrote: 
will you please explain to me one more time why it would not be acceptable to blockade us?
Squid wrote: 
Because I shouldn't have to go through all that effort.

[Mar 18, 2005 12:41:35 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
drc500free

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Oorlian wrote: 
Another thing that's been confusing me about the score is thus: sometimes my pump will fall from yellow to green as I'm setting up a bingo. In the past, setting that bingo off (one or two moves later) always brought it back to yellow. These days it doesn't seem to do that consistently. It just...I used to have a very good feel for what you had to do to get that pump moving, and suddenly it isn't the same.


That can be a side effect of doing more donkeys. If a donkey falls out of the scoring frame, and you only replace it with a bingo, you won't go back up to the same average.
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-Darvid
sundancer wrote: 
will you please explain to me one more time why it would not be acceptable to blockade us?
Squid wrote: 
Because I shouldn't have to go through all that effort.

[Mar 18, 2005 12:44:24 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Oorlian

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drc500free wrote: 
Oorlian wrote: 
Another thing that's been confusing me about the score is thus: sometimes my pump will fall from yellow to green as I'm setting up a bingo. In the past, setting that bingo off (one or two moves later) always brought it back to yellow. These days it doesn't seem to do that consistently. It just...I used to have a very good feel for what you had to do to get that pump moving, and suddenly it isn't the same.


That can be a side effect of doing more donkeys. If a donkey falls out of the scoring frame, and you only replace it with a bingo, you won't go back up to the same average.


Oh, duh. Thanks :)
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I make my way across the sea, upon a mighty brig,
Searching for something lost to me: a pirate-worthy sig.
[Mar 18, 2005 12:47:46 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.kevan.org/brain.cgi?Oorlian    Oorlian [Link]  Go to top 
Telastyn



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Personally, I find donkeys are worth it, but only really on the highest star puzzle [when the bingo-donkey scores are bumped higher].
[Mar 18, 2005 2:24:56 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Heygabe

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Why are there Bingos and Big Bingos? And are they scored the same?
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[Mar 18, 2005 2:42:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
drc500free

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Heygabe wrote: 
Why are there Bingos and Big Bingos? And are they scored the same?
By Big Bingos you mean 3x3x4 and things like that? Lengthening the verticals doesn't really seem to make much of a difference. It probably adds a move for each extra piece, which is cancelled out by getting it there. Maybe it adds a shade more than a move.
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-Darvid
sundancer wrote: 
will you please explain to me one more time why it would not be acceptable to blockade us?
Squid wrote: 
Because I shouldn't have to go through all that effort.

[Mar 18, 2005 2:49:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Telastyn



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In my perception they help a bunch, but I'm not a big mathematical player [but 5th? in diamond last I saw].

Basically the size of the Bingo on the screen will be proportional to the score you get. If anything, getting a 3x5x3 bingo is better than a 3x3x3 bingo so you don't have those extra 2 bricks floating around and in your way.
[Mar 18, 2005 3:09:02 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
captnmorgan



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I'm #2 in the ocean, behind an obvious alt (low exp makes it easier to maintain a higher rating) and I would have to agree. From my experience donkeys and vegases aren't worth the effort. Sure, they are nice if they are there, but I don't go out of my way to get them. It seems like they are only worth slightly more than bingos. Furthermore, you don't even really have to bingo all of the time to do well. I usually go for 3x3s, 3s, bingos, etc. It's just all about efficiency not about how big your breaks are.
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=P

[Mar 18, 2005 3:51:45 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jacktheblack

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Shuranthae wrote: 
Point well missed guys. Currently Donkeys aren't even really worth the effort. If you go pure Bingo you'll have an easier time and a better score. It's the only puzzle where easier is better.


I completely Disagree. I feel that Donkeys are worth a whole lot more then a bingo is. With one Donkey I can go from a brown pump to a golden one. Vegas are the one not worth it at all.
[Mar 18, 2005 3:58:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    jacktheblackypp    samergamer [Link]  Go to top 
drc500free

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Jacktheblack wrote: 
Shuranthae wrote: 
Point well missed guys. Currently Donkeys aren't even really worth the effort. If you go pure Bingo you'll have an easier time and a better score. It's the only puzzle where easier is better.


I completely Disagree. I feel that Donkeys are worth a whole lot more then a bingo is. With one Donkey I can go from a brown pump to a golden one. Vegas are the one not worth it at all.
You can do that with a bingo, if it's early enough ;). But donkeys are definitely worth much more than bingos. With no bingos or donkeys in a full scoring frame, you can get to gold with a donkey. You can't do the same with a bingo.
----------------------------------------
-Darvid
sundancer wrote: 
will you please explain to me one more time why it would not be acceptable to blockade us?
Squid wrote: 
Because I shouldn't have to go through all that effort.

[Mar 18, 2005 4:07:44 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
AySz88

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captnmorgan wrote: 
I'm #2 in the ocean, behind an obvious alt (low exp makes it easier to maintain a higher rating)...
Since I'm in his crew... As far as I know, Cloaker is not an alt, he simply got the hang of bilge very quickly with a style that is...unique. He's been in the YJs since he was a greenie. (I know that doesn't prove he really isn't an alt, of course.)

As long as the top bilgers are sharing... I need to record my own style sometime to make sure, but I think my style is something like quarter-vegas half-donkeys quarter-bingos (counting the larger combos only), and I'm currently #5 ocean, so whatever I'm doing now is probably better than the bingo-bingo-bingo I'd been doing when I was only Coral #1.

Of course, it all depends on how efficiently you can get the combos that your style's made out of. I have a conjecture that their scoring scheme allows any 'perfect' player with different styles (bingos only, donkeys only, etc.) to average the same score. Maybe not, though.
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-Darvian
SO of the Yellow Jackets on Park, Midnight
A++ C++ P L GD++ Dnone C Bl++ Sa+ Gu+ SF+ N+++ Bn Dr R+ Al Sh++ B+ F+++ S+
[Mar 18, 2005 5:18:29 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    AySz88    AySz88 [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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When I was the top bilger I only went for pure Bingos. I dropped like a month ago while I was screwing on the navy and haven't bothered to try to get it back until last night. The thing that bothers me is how much more Bingos are worth over Donkeys and Vegases when you take into account the time and effort needed to make them consistently. In all the other puzzles you can go for just the highest scoring potential and easily not only maintain a Sparkly but top a very high incred (consistently topping the Duty Report, for example). In Bilge that's just not possible, the most efficient scoring method is to go for less because the reward for a Bingo vs Donkey/Vegas doesn't scale correctly.
[Mar 18, 2005 7:37:37 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
BehindCurtai

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drc500free wrote: 
Heygabe wrote: 
Why are there Bingos and Big Bingos? And are they scored the same?
By Big Bingos you mean 3x3x4 and things like that? Lengthening the verticals doesn't really seem to make much of a difference. It probably adds a move for each extra piece, which is cancelled out by getting it there. Maybe it adds a shade more than a move.


Adding one to a row adds two points before the multiplier.

So if the multiplier is 3, you add 6 points.

On midnight, the sparkly line seems to be about 3.2 or 3.3 per move. 6 points is therefore just under 2 moves. 12 points (a tripled length 5) would permit 3 moves.
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Shanoyu

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That's not what bilge is about. Bilge is about creating carefully constructed combos that require interaction to complete, in otherwords, creating a bingo that leads into a sea donkey.
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Spade01



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AySz88Since wrote: 
I'm in his crew... As far as I know, Cloaker is not an alt, he simply got the hang of bilge very quickly with a style that is...unique. He's been in the YJs since he was a greenie. (I know that doesn't prove he really isn't an alt, of course.)


Cloaker is not an alt, he's just very very good at bilge. He now plays on Cobalt in me crew under the name Cloak and he's Paragon/Ultimate, sitting atop BOTH charts fer bilge.
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AySz88

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Shanoyu wrote: 
That's not what bilge is about. Bilge is about creating carefully constructed combos that require interaction to complete, in otherwords, creating a bingo that leads into a sea donkey.
http://www.puzzlepirates.com/docs/bilge.html wrote: 
You will swiftly notice that it's possible to create chain reactions where clearing one set of pieces causes another Row or Column to fall into place. These accelerate the progress of your bilging, although chains are often serendipitous, and are therefore much less valued than combos.


... If that's what you're talking about. I don't think there's any multiplier on a chain, or if there is, it might be < 1.
----------------------------------------
-Darvian
SO of the Yellow Jackets on Park, Midnight
A++ C++ P L GD++ Dnone C Bl++ Sa+ Gu+ SF+ N+++ Bn Dr R+ Al Sh++ B+ F+++ S+
[Mar 18, 2005 9:46:39 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    AySz88    AySz88 [Link]  Go to top 
Roleni

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Shuranthae wrote: 
Point well missed guys. Currently Donkeys aren't even really worth the effort. If you go pure Bingo you'll have an easier time and a better score. It's the only puzzle where easier is better.


Heh. Try being at full bilge on Cobalt. All you have to do is clear crabs. :P


As for the actual puzzles...well, look over things. For purposes of swordfighting, intentionally setting up anything over a bingo tends to be overkill. There are exceptions, of course, but usually that means you got dealt a nice breaker set. In fact, it's possible to instakill (or at least effectively instakill) someone without a combo in swordfighting. In shipwrighting you can't set up anything bigger than a Vegas - anything past involves some measure of luck, even if you've set things up for the probabilities, and you really only have to do a bingo each time to get incredible as long as you include the two five-pieces. Also, enough of a bingo or donkey or two in sailing will get you up to incredible if you're quick enough. While the impact of a vegas or more may last longer, that sailor that does the bingo/donkey combos is actually more helpful for the time period before that vegas kicks in.

As such, it seems that there are definite diminishing returns built in for big combos. As far as duty puzzles go, having someone take lots and lots of time to set up a big combo and then riding it out for a while may not actually be as helpful as someone who can get up to a high level quickly and consistently even if they peak a bit lower. Being able to set off huge combos is nice, but why over-reward people that are already at the top of the ratings? Encouraging huge combos too much also means that people that really shouldn't go for them will and just do worse.

The fact that sea donkeys and vegases aren't really worth the effort should be telling you something - only go for them when the opportunity is readily available. Otherwise, consistent bingos should be enough.
Also, as was just pointed out, bilging is not just about the initial combo.
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[Mar 20, 2005 11:10:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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Pfft! It's about high scores. I can do sailing Vegas++ and easily top the duty report regardless of who else is on board, that's not so with bilge. I'm talking about reward over effort here. In your Swordfighting example, if you can pull off high combos quick enough then they're worth doing. It's especially true if you're a sprinkler and not a striker. Same goes with Sailing, it's easy to start off with a triple then do constant Vegas+. This isn't so in Bilging, I always start with Bingos but if I try to consistently go Vegas once I have a steady sparkle I'll eventually lose it just because they're barely worth the move ratios involved, and no where near worth the risk.
[Mar 20, 2005 12:17:37 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Roleni

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Shuranthae wrote: 
Pfft! It's about high scores. I can do sailing Vegas++ and easily top the duty report regardless of who else is on board, that's not so with bilge. I'm talking about reward over effort here. In your Swordfighting example, if you can pull off high combos quick enough then they're worth doing. It's especially true if you're a sprinkler and not a striker. Same goes with Sailing, it's easy to start off with a triple then do constant Vegas+. This isn't so in Bilging, I always start with Bingos but if I try to consistently go Vegas once I have a steady sparkle I'll eventually lose it just because they're barely worth the move ratios involved, and no where near worth the risk.


So maybe it's a slight anomaly. ;) Still, reward over effort isn't necessarily what should be the case if the effort is inefficient, since the puzzles are about efficiency, not effort. I prefer to set off 5/6 Vegas and clear my entire board in one shot in sailing, and it sure makes the next several league points easy. The big huge word in the middle is certainly more fun than bingo or donkey. However, it's usually not efficient - I often could have cleared the board in half the pieces, working in said triple(s). Thus, I often pay the penalty of something like a good or fine in the first league. My effort is actually rewarded, but I pay for my original inefficiency. It's a short-term investment in long-term gain.
With the case in bilging, it's all short-term. Your effort in bilging is still rewarded, it's just that your loss and reward happen immediately. The pump could said to be "laggy" since it seems to go down slightly from the vegas when in fact it's just gone down substantially from the inefficient moves and then back up (but not as much as it went down) from the combo. (That, at least, is my understanding of the impact of the moves.)
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Soulja

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I'm #2 in the ocean, behind an obvious alt


You probably wouldn't be so quick to dismiss if I told you that that character is indeed that player's first and only midnight character, and that he only started playing 1 month ago.
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Shuranthae

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Roleni wrote: 
Stuff
Okay, I'm talking about Vegasing after already gotten a sparkly with a lower combo, which I have mentioned before, and it's still not worth it. And the efficiency factor is what I would call broken. If a Vegas or above were to give less than a Bingo in Sailing, then it would then be more efficienct to just do Bingos and never do Vegases. But that would be broken, which is what I dare say Bilging is right now. It is more efficient to go for Vegases than Bingos in Sailing scorewise, thinking Score over Pieces. That is all I'm talking about here, just the scoring system.

Combos work because the multiplier goes up in a linear way, however the Bilging combos gets significantly harder as they get bigger and the moves required to make them don't increase as linearly as the moves necessary for larger combos in other puzzles.
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Roleni

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Shuranthae wrote: 
Okay, I'm talking about Vegasing after already gotten a sparkly with a lower combo, which I have mentioned before, and it's still not worth it. And the efficiency factor is what I would call broken. If a Vegas or above were to give less than a Bingo in Sailing, then it would then be more efficienct to just do Bingos and never do Vegases. But that would be broken, which is what I dare say Bilging is right now. It is more efficient to go for Vegases than Bingos in Sailing scorewise, thinking Score over Pieces. That is all I'm talking about here, just the scoring system.

Combos work because the multiplier goes up in a linear way, however the Bilging combos gets significantly harder as they get bigger and the moves required to make them don't increase as linearly as the moves necessary for larger combos in other puzzles.


Right, I see that. But I don't see why sea donkeys and vegases shouldn't be discouraged if they're not efficient? ;) I guess I just see the bilging puzzle as something that you get to the sparkly pump and keep it there however you can, especially since it's the starting puzzle. I agree that if they're very hard that they should be worth a lot, but if they take a whole lot of moves, especially in comparison to a bingo, then it seems like they shouldn't be made unless it would be "easy" to convert a bingo into one.
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[Mar 20, 2005 2:03:09 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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Yeah, but you're talking about something totally different than what I am. This isn't Tips and Tricks, this is Game Design. You're talking about how best to play under the current system, a system I call broken and in need of fixing. Going back to my example... In Sailing if Vegases weren't worth the effort compared to a Bingo, then from a Tips and Tricks Player perspective I'd only want to go for Bingos. From a Game Design perspective, I'd fix the game so the harder stuff is worth the effort.
[Mar 20, 2005 2:09:07 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Rick9109

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I thought the devs posted somewhere that they changed bilging donkeys to actually be worth doing now.

I haven't experimented because, even though I'm paragon in the puzzle, I'm still relatively new to doing it to be good at it, instead of doing it because someone has to.
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Rome
Pirates of the Damned, Crimson Tide.
I don't care what it did to them, the game's been good to me.
[Mar 20, 2005 6:40:47 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    rick9109    cactusrome [Link]  Go to top 
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