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AlfMason

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Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

Discussion thread on my various character flaws, split from this thread in GD.
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Mullins on Midnight, Stinks on Ice

Have a problem with me in Game Design? Read this

I'd call him a sadistic, hippophilic necrophile, but that would be beating a dead horse.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by AlfMason at Sep 26, 2010 6:48:31 PM]
[Sep 26, 2010 6:45:38 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sagacious

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

Oh since we're in parley, I would like to note my amusement at your use of the word "rampant" to describe the prevalence of using a bunch of alts in blockades.
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Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple
[Sep 26, 2010 7:23:39 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Springheel

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

Just wanna point out that when I have seen alts in use, they generally do fine to excellent in the duty reports, and that if someone does have the capability to pull off consistent puzzling with multiple accounts I don't see the harm in using them, especially since we're in an ocean a declining population where less and less people will be jobbing in blockades anyways.

I just dont feel like posting in Game Design.
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blah blah blah
[Sep 26, 2010 7:45:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kimbers108

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

Yeah, if the pay is good I multiclient to make more money but am not a jerk about it. So I do excel on 2 accts and don't make a big deal of it. I've seen a couple do increds on multiple accts....now that's just badass.
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Kimmy

I play a few oceans :)

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[Sep 26, 2010 7:47:14 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
HiimEric2001

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

There's no issue with people actually using a couple alts to puzzle if they can pull it off and be effective. This isn't what I saw, though.
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Cire
Purple Squid Brigade, Inglorious Fandango

 
Nemo says, "Cire has figured me out..."

[Sep 26, 2010 8:11:52 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
harrjm

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

 
There's no issue with people actually using a couple alts to puzzle if they can pull it off and be effective. This isn't what I saw, though.

Nope, you are upset with pirates just sitting on a ship to gain influence.
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Captain of Gods of War
King of Tyranny
Blockade madman
[Sep 26, 2010 8:21:53 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
RedShadow2

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

We (DI) noticed something like this after one of our more recent blockades, where greenie alts would just sit on station and were scored as "Learning" on the duty reports. Which meant that they were still paid. I think thats what people have problems with.
If you can get double excellent's/inc's more power to you, after all you are still helping that boat/driver/crew so why shouldnt you be paid.
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RedShadow - Cerulean

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[Sep 26, 2010 8:28:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Springheel

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

 
We (DI) noticed something like this after one of our more recent blockades, where greenie alts would just sit on station and were scored as "Learning" on the duty reports. Which meant that they were still paid. I think thats what people have problems with.
If you can get double excellent's/inc's more power to you, after all you are still helping that boat/driver/crew so why shouldnt you be paid.


I think that's different. All of Harrjm's alts actually puzzle and help with the influence. Cire is mad at the strategic use of alts to fill ships to gain influence to make up for a lack of jobbers.

I seriously feel dirty for defending you, Harr. Go back to being an asshat.
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blah blah blah
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Springheel at Sep 26, 2010 8:31:41 PM]
[Sep 26, 2010 8:30:57 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
cmdrzoom

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

Now that we're in Parley:

Way to live down to your rep and/or avatar, Harrjm.
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Starhawk of Mad Mutineers, Azure
Catalina of Twilight's Sabre, Cobalt
[Sep 26, 2010 9:08:59 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
sprngweather

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

I of course would have preferred Harrjm not use his 20 alts on a WF (they don't puzzle) against us, and I am not a huge fan of that technique in general because I don't think it's really fun for anyone (though it's pretty fun to watch on the sidelines). It's easily compatible: someone can just take in a solo dhow and shoot up and sink the WF or minimum influence sloops can sit on the points the WF is guarding.

I agree to some extent with Mullins and Cire (and many of the jobbers that switched sides) that the alt WF is (slightly) unbalanced: One person can cause the opposing flag to either forgo that many points for several turns (until the WF is sunk) and/or waste 6+ jobbers (3 on each sloop guarding let's say 2 flags) to balance out 1 jobber with 20 alts on a WF. However, I certainly don't think negatively of Harrjm or Tyr's Own for doing it and I have been on voice with him multiple times while he was doing it. Had Harrjm jobbed for Riot (as I asked him to the day before) instead of Tyr's Own I would have asked him just to use himself, mostly because I think that would be more fun for him and everyone else. In the past when I've seen him use this technique, it's mostly been when jobbing was severely swung against the flag he was jobbed in (so it was used more in desperation).

For some reason Riot has rarely (if ever) used even a sloop of alts to gain influence, maybe we should. I think it's just a cultural difference and my flag wasn't used to seeing something like that. The vast majority of Riot members are only on blockade teams inside Riot, so, they wouldn't have noticed you doing it before.

In game, some people told me that it sounded like Riot was just sore about losing. I guarantee that's not the case. Riot has lost many blockades, and winning this blockade was substantially less important to us than some of the others we lost, yet no one (to my recollection) tarted about techniques the other side did then.

Harrjm, Mullins, Cire, and heck, most people posting in these threads are my close hearties that I have known for years. I know you are all good people with just different opinions about how the game should be played. I do not feel passionately about this issue, but I can understand why some do. I hope this debate (resembling more of a tartfest) does not stir up any bad blood between Riot, Bipolar, and Tyr's Own.

~Picory
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Sprngweather & Picory
Avatar by the talented Sancha
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by sprngweather at Sep 26, 2010 11:20:52 PM]
[Sep 26, 2010 11:19:41 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Donsmythe

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

Whether or not you like Harrjm's approach, here are a few facts to consider:

(1) Anyone can do it. There's nothing preventing you from countering by doing the same thing. And I've seen flags do just that, countering a Harrjm alt ship with one of their own. Even if it's just each blockade staff member tossing one alt on the sit ship, it's theoretically doable by any flag.

(2) The alts are not puzzling (and the ship itself isn't set to blockading, so it doesn't drain poe from the flag, even if some of them were puzzling).

(3) This is a severely understaffed ship, with it's staff severely underperforming - it's an easy sink. Now think about how much you lag when you sink. Think about how much lag you get when 20 clients sink simultaneously. What sort of turnaround time is expected for that ship? Also, the longer it sits there, the more damage it has, even without being shot, since nobody is carping. And it's bilge will fill quickly. So at best, one move every three turns if all the swabbies are on sails. Any halfway decent navigator should be able to sink these things faster than Harrjm can reload them.

(4) Sink enough of them in round one, and Harrjm is out of ships to use. You could think of it like a BK blockade, if you like, and give up one round so you can run him out of ships. Of course...hard to know how many he has at his disposal, it varies by island, so this is a risky strategy if he's got more ships than you can sink in a round. And if he sees that's what you're trying to do, he'll stop loading them, so you still have to be smart about it and play out your strategy carefully.

(5) The technique works really well for attackers, but not so well for defenders (because of oceanside advantage - bringing in the alt ship oceanside means it will probably stay up longer). So, if you are defending and think your opponent will use this tactic, make the blockade sinking. When's the last time you saw Harrjm use this in a sinking blockade? Hint: he didn't use it once at Beta, which was sinking.

(6) If you think a defending flag is likely to use it, and don't think they'll go sinking, then you might wish to pick another target, unless you are willing to use this technique yourself. Remember, if you are attacking and both sides are using it, YOU are the one with the enormous advantage.

(7) This tactic isn't new. I've seen it used for along time now - Folie Circulaire's win at Guava was due to me using some alt sloops to gain us a 1 point incline, for example, and I believe that it's been used before as far back as Fandango; and Harrjm's been doing it quite a bit for at least a year.

(8) TO didn't use the alt ships thing in round 3 at all. In fact, Harrjm was navving for a flag on Malachite at that point, and not doing anything on Midnight during round 3. And from watching the proceedings during round 3, and considering what the alt ships accomplished in rounds 1 and 2 versus the actual points differential, I'd say with pretty high confidence that TO would have won all three rounds with or without Harrjm's alt ships. It was pretty obvious which side had the more seasoned nav team, and I think that difference was enough to decide the outcome.

(9) Every statement I've seen to date from the developers suggests that this tactic is allowable (at present) so don't call it cheating....until the developers say clearly whether it is or not. It might be argued that it's a cheap tactic, or lame, but it's not cheating (yet). If the alts were botting (ie, puzzling but not under player control) then it would definitely be cheating. But since they're just sitting there, the ship is ripe for a sink.

So at any rate, this tactic can be countered, it does not always decide the blockade's outcome (though a few cases in the past months, it has affected a round or two), it's not something only one person can do and another can't, nor is it a "new" idea by any stretch. I don't see it as being nearly as unbalanced as some of you seem to think it is. You just need to break out of your tiny box and think it through, and maybe employ a few new strategies. That's the admiral's job - a good admiral will see what I've suggested above, and more, and figure out ways to counter it. I hear Riot was trying a blockade without an admiral and well, perhaps this wasn't the right day to try that. (In fact, ironically, the fewer jobbers you have, the more you need an admiral to coordinate - when there's a lot of small ships out there, the admiral's decisions and overall strategy can really make or break the blockade.)

You need to be at least as creative as the people using this technique, and then you actually can overcome it. I must emphasize: if you don't want to see it used, make it a sinking blockade. Then, on the off chance it's used, you can make it expensive as hell.

Sure, I'd rather see real ships out there, filled with real jobbers, but until and unless OOO actually does something to repopulate the ocean, this technique will be used, like it or not. I doubt we've seen the last of it.

Finally, what's really interesting to me, in fact, is that while Harrjm is notorious for using this technique, it hasn't really been used in his own flag's blockades nearly as much as it's been used elsewhere. (As I noted, it wasn't used at all in Fallen vs. Bipolar at Beta on Saturday - think about it: sinking blockade, and Harrjm didn't want ships he paid for to be sunk gratuitiously... and note that Bipolar chose to make it sinking knowing full well that it meant we wouldn't be able to use this tactic.)

So I'd also like to make it clear that this technique is something that Harrjm does as part of his "asshat to the ocean" functionality, and it is not an official service offered by Bipolar. If you really want to avoid it and don't want sinking, then just make sure Harrjm is working for you...or find a creative way to counter it. (There's more than one, and I think above I've given plenty of hints as to how you might approach your strategies.)
[Sep 27, 2010 12:25:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://don.yacktman.org/blog/    yackd [Link]  Go to top 
REJBELLS

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

Don said:

 
(2) The alts are not puzzling (and the ship itself isn't set to blockading, so it doesn't drain poe from the flag, even if some of them were puzzling).


Please explain to me How, in a blockade, a contender's ship on the board that is Not set to blockading can have any influence ring of any kind, let alone capture and guard a flag?

Perhaps this is the design flaw.

I need clarification please.
Can, any ship , contender's or interloper's enter the blockade board without being set to blockade?
Or is it that any ship, in either contending flag, automatically gets plopped into the board when at that island during an active blockade as an auto inclusion while interlopers have to set their ship to blockade to enter the board?

Is the setting to blockade and setting pay the same mechaninc?

Making an Interlopers' ship auto HAVE to set aside some sort of pay to avoid the negative message at pay time.
While Contending ships, not having to be set to blockade.. do not get that warning?

Just to be clear...

This all became public when a certain pirate left Tyr's and Joined Riot very vocally protesting the use of the alt ships.
Followed after by a statement from a Riot officer about how Riot was blockading to give the ocean's pirates a chance to play in a blockade (I took that to mean they were taking Tyr's up on their offer to come play for the sake of some ocean stimulating playing fun. Which, they felt, was spoiled by using this alt technique.

To me, the disappointment expressed was more the dissappointment the game was not being played one on one with real , individual pirates.

Blockading is the ONLY mass Real People vs Real People aspect of the game. If ye want to fight 1 real plus that person's alts accompanied by a few bots..ye can do it outside the blockade board by yourself. Infact .. Go Reboots and the Goblins!! lol
So, what was really the instigator for the upset was the dissappointment the jobbing of real individual pirates for fun and games was not played much differently than if we were in Atlantis .. or HS.
( Also the re was som ' Missing the old days' lol ,the social puzzle plus the old alliance rings and the days when ye did not job for nor have had known hearties in another flag even..where loyalty and honour mattered where ye fought for ye flags Honour.. for 24 hours.. not pay.)

Robertdonald anyone?!
Let's not go there again, please.. Harrjm, among others, has contributed Much, does contribute much and will contribute much much more. Let's not spoil the fun!

The question of what is an Alt is another bag of worms.
The problem with all these wiggly little factors of game design, alts, exploit vs technique, spririt of the game etc..
is that we Never Seem to Catch any Fish!
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Wildsrose Of:
Cerulean, Meridian & Emerald

The Titan. The Kraken.
[Sep 27, 2010 3:53:33 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wonkothes

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

The only way for someone to port at, or leave an island to pillage, run commods, or just move their ship from an island during a blockade is to go across the blockade board. Rejbells, you really want to prevent anyone from being able to get on a blockade board without offering pay?

To those who are running blockades and not noticing the alt ships, are you serious? At minimum the Admiral should be doing a /w and checking every ship on the blockade board to see who is driving, and how many are aboard. I know I was taught this as far back as 2004. Alt ship or not, If one frig you are fighting has 45 on it and the other has 30, you contend the 45 and get rid of or immobilized the undermanned ship. If you see a brig with 9 or a frig with 18 aboard, you have to know that they are very undermanned and will be dead in the water quickly. But what if they werent, wouldnt you still have to contend with that extra ship if it were fully staffed? This is not a hard technique to counter, and if you enjoy sinking ships can be fun. Lather, rinse, repeat. Contend Harr's alt frigs with a baghlah, sink his alt brigs with a junk or a dhow, and move on. How many alt sloops have been used in blockades with no noticable complaints. They have influenced more blockades than Harrs alt ships. Just because those alts are less obvious, doesnt make it any different.

To those who want to have it changed so greenies create influence, which would you prefer, a dead in the water alt ship, or a dead in the water fully staffed ship, as the poefarmers sit on your ships an get "learning" as you dont get moves, clear damage, or empty bilge. Harr's ships are obvious to anyone with rudimentary blockade experience. Sink them.
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Wonkots Governor of Wrasse
Cleaver wrote: 
Your new Penguin Overlords will be along shortly to begin the long and 'difficult' process of 'correction'."

[Sep 27, 2010 4:18:44 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sagacious

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

 

Please explain to me How, in a blockade, a contender's ship on the board that is Not set to blockading can have any influence ring of any kind, let alone capture and guard a flag?

Perhaps this is the design flaw.

I need clarification please.
Can, any ship , contender's or interloper's enter the blockade board without being set to blockade?
Or is it that any ship, in either contending flag, automatically gets plopped into the board when at that island during an active blockade as an auto inclusion while interlopers have to set their ship to blockade to enter the board?

Is the setting to blockade and setting pay the same mechaninc?

Any ship that deports or tries to sail to a blockaded island will enter the board. If that ship has enough subscribed pirates aboard, it will have influence - regardless of whether the ship is set to blockade or not. The main reason to configure a ship for blockade these days is to enable the jobbers aboard to get paid. If someone forgets to set blockade mode, the jobbers won't get paid - so normally the JC or Nav/XO ensure that the ship is configured to blockade when they come aboard.

It's also important to have the blockade mode set before you put your jobbing notice up, as otherwise the ship will be advertised under a voyage type other than blockade - and jobbers will end up there who think you're going on a pillage.
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Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Sagacious at Sep 27, 2010 6:28:53 AM]
[Sep 27, 2010 6:26:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
deepxpurplex

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

 
To those who are running blockades and not noticing the alt ships, are you serious? At minimum the Admiral should be doing a /w and checking every ship on the blockade board to see who is driving, and how many are aboard.


We were actually trying something different that included a non-traditional admiral role (and it apparently failed miserably, lesson learned). Flaggies noticed the alt ships, I was /vw-ing from my viewing pirate while I was playing JC on jobriot. The navvers were informed which boats were understaffed and which were alt boats. The issue is not that we didn't notice it this time, I think people in the flag are shocked we never really saw it before. I personally don't blockade or pay enough attention to the forums enough to have seen it. Those who had seen it before got the fire under their bum to bring it up between their own personal beliefs about the game and most likely from the great outcry in crew chat that most people thought it was slimy. I'm not entirely happy about it either but for now its a legitimate tactic. If enough people are unhappy with it, they should speak up and maybe it gets fixed. If not, wah, everyone moves on to the next thing to tart about.

The whole point of this is not because we lost. Some of us knew we were dead round 1 as soon as we saw we had a WF and it wasn't really a WF board. (Sometimes you can just feel you're going to get creamed, ya know?) I couldn't care less about Byrne. Our in-flag turnout further perpetuates that most of our flaggies could care less about Byrne. We wanted to blockade, that's where we chose. Like Picory said, we've had way more devastating losses; this barely registers.

So the difference here is not that we lost, but that some of us felt that tactic took away from the fun we've had in the past when we knew we were not going to win. So maybe we'll pick differently next time we want to blockade to avoid this. I don't know. But I can assure you no one really cares we lost (more than you'd normally care about losing, of course).
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[Kaeley of the Midnight Ocean]
[SO of GO]
[Riot Pirate]
 
Hypnos says, "Have fun uh, funking one another."

 
Poet says, "Oh, you're bnavving??"
Poet has left the vessel.

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[Edit 1 times, last edit by deepxpurplex at Sep 27, 2010 6:55:54 AM]
[Sep 27, 2010 6:54:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.myspace.com/beloved_loser    midnightxmurderx@sbcglobal.net    Kissinbeats [Link]  Go to top 
DeepNine

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

It's funny, I was under the misconception that Harrjm was going to be helping Riot when I logged on yesterday and came with a plan for how to combat his alt ships worked out in my head. I know for certain that a few of Riot's higher-ups have been with us on blockade staff while we've combatted and utilized the strategy both, so you might be able to understand my surprise at the amount of drama this is causing.

Like it's been said, this was supposed to be a friendly, fun blockade. If you don't like the tactic, why not ask us before the blockade not to use it? It's not like we rely on it as a crutch to win, and it's just a minor part of the blockade game that we're perfectly happy not to utilize if we're comfortable that the other side won't either. Heck, we've blockaded against a lot of flags over the years. How are we supposed to know which particular tactics Riot considers 'clean' and 'dirty' if they're not once mentioned beforehand, especially when they have prior knowledge that we're going to use them?

It's a bit like the people that complain about us raising pay without once mentioning anything about pay caps beforehand. I've put it down on paper a few times before and I'll do it again: Tyr's Own is very amenable to gentleman's agreements with the other party before the blockade starts, concerning pretty much everything. The three times we've been asked to cap pay during the last year we've agreed every time, and quite enjoyed those blockades regardless of the outcome. I know I had a good time yesterday, and I apologize to those over in Riot who do not feel the same way. Hopefully when next time rolls around we can work something out so this doesn't happen again.
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Nine of Tyr's Own
Currently on loan to: Dies Irae
[Sep 27, 2010 7:29:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Donsmythe

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

 

[...] some of us felt that tactic took away from the fun we've had in the past when we knew we were not going to win. [...].


Actually, I think that the joker who keeps spawning large (20- and 35-monster) frays on the docks of blockaded islands seconds before the blockade starts (and respawns them if they are defeated) is doing more to take the fun out of blockades than Harrjm's alt ships. I'm positive that those frays weren't just happenstance, and were deliberately spawned by someone, though I have no idea who.

Just my opinion, but I think it's also something you could classify as a rather slimy tactic. It could be used to reduce the jobbing pool and/or play havoc with the war crews' jobber chat. Not to mention getting some of your top jobbers to multiclient the skellie fight and blockade puzzling, leading to less than optimal performance in one or both. (Plus with the top end melee fighters all off driving ships or XOing or otherwise staffing the blockades, the frays tend to lose more often, and stick around longer.) In the end, I'd argue that this fray spawning affects more jobbers and it affects them more directly. At least the alt ships can be dealt with much more easily.

(I'm sure by now people have realized that if you can secure the larger portion of the ocean's die-hard blockaders to job for you, then the other side will suffer more so you can use the frays to mess them up while keeping your ships strong.)

Believe me, while I wouldn't want Harrjm and his alt ships working against me, I have also given thought to how to deal with it. And, oh yeah, at least one block in the past month had Harr and I helping different sides and we did deal with it to my satisfaction. Get creative with your admiralling; what Harrjm is doing is certainly not a "win" button. For me as someone who is often admiral, the thing I really like is that it's made me think harder about my strategy, devise some new and innovative strategies (new to me at least), and in short, improve my overall approach to everything in a blockade. In the end, it's helped me be a better admiral.

What's interesting here is that you could say much the same things about some of the tactics used by Robertdonald: he thought outside the box, forcing you to do the same to counter it. If you took the time to puzzle out a counterapproach, you ended up being a better strategist for the effort. Or you could just whine about it. Take the lemons and make lemonade, or just make a sour face.

How you deal with the opposition's strategies is independent of whether or not you like the tactics used, by the way. Of course, whining could be an attempt at social manipulation, and used as your counter-approach, and it might work, too. It's certainly just as valid, though it does have a risk of backfiring (as does any tactic - there's always a weakness).
[Sep 27, 2010 7:30:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://don.yacktman.org/blog/    yackd [Link]  Go to top 
StuManchu

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

 
Like it's been said, this was supposed to be a friendly, fun blockade. If you don't like the tactic, why not ask us before the blockade not to use it?


You understand how ridiculous this question is, right?

(not taking a side, just saying that this argument is preposterous, much like Fan Death)
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Was once Stuyvesant

Redistribute your wealth, or we'll redistribute your blood.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by StuManchu at Sep 27, 2010 8:02:09 AM]
[Sep 27, 2010 7:50:46 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
REJBELLS

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

I am not trying to prevent all ships without pay set from entering the board.
There is already a choice of settings for pay .. including no pay for flaggies. A n adjustment to allow individual ships to take that setting over and above the general setting.. will solve that.

I am suggesting that this tactic of allowing ships on the board that have radial influence, may take possession of and guard flags, have the ability to shoot back if neccessary (whether or not is used.. I am sure of the kill it tactic is employed ye will see more defensive measures from the solo real pirate) that are basically Robot Ships that do not hold any expense other than a few rums and cb... etc.

Just may be where the upset lays.

So far, It is a legal move available to all.
Blockade is the only large multiplaye arena we have in the game. If we wanted to play dead ships or bot ships.. there are plenty of other ways to do it.

When this tactic becomes a GeneralUse one. ..Accepted into the community and used by all, do ye think it will be as much fun , more fun, the same fun as HS and Atlantis or just plain .. what's the point.

Avoiding Jobber pay, Not interactive-not inclusive of the community. Not having to do the pre- game advertising and enrollment of real players to stand with ye...
Opps there goes Alliances.. Heck X crew in the flag opts out, even tho they promised to support the Flag. Whybother with flags.

Captains can be royal with a couple of select mates.. and run islands.
that's how it is now anyway...One group runs the show. The rest of the flag sees no benefit to them or their game on any level.

We already stopped having the ships in a crew remain permanently with the crew.
Individuals can now run shoppes and stalls singly , of any kind. Crew cuts from pillaging have been stopped.. (Who wants to support their captains Poker habits lol)

That's what the pirate who changed to Riot was upset about in crew chat.
The missing parts of the Old game of blockade that -some- people thought existed.
That's what I see In that second statement.
The loss of real people playing with real people and the use of tactics to compensate for that.

Perhaps , this is an idea for Crimson..
Have BK Training Events where Real pirates are invited to come Play!

Thank ye Wonk and Sagacious for the clarifications.
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Wildsrose Of:
Cerulean, Meridian & Emerald

The Titan. The Kraken.
[Sep 27, 2010 8:34:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
DeepNine

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

 
 
Like it's been said, this was supposed to be a friendly, fun blockade. If you don't like the tactic, why not ask us before the blockade not to use it?


You understand how ridiculous this question is, right?

(not taking a side, just saying that this argument is preposterous, much like Fan Death)


Not really. Several flags have asked us to do or not do certain things in the past for blockades, and we're generally receptive - for example, Riot at the most recent Guava blockades. Pay cap agreements along with pre-set rules of engagement are fairly standard practice as well.

Edit/Disclaimer: This is, of course, not to say that just asking will get you everything you ask because we're nice and warm and fuzzy, just that it strikes an odd chord with me when there was a) previous knowledge that it was going to happen with b) no steps at all were taken to prevent or mitigate it followed by c) tarting after the fact.
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Nine of Tyr's Own
Currently on loan to: Dies Irae
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by DeepNine at Sep 27, 2010 9:28:43 AM]
[Sep 27, 2010 9:09:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Luvessy

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

I think it's, at a minimum, unfun to being playing against alt ships. And no, not anyone can do it. You need to have 20 alts or so, don't you? Personally, I was never big on multiple accounts for a single player. I'm probably in the minority, at least compared to the most active forum-goers.

I was against alt forage armies; I'm against alt blockading armies. It feels like an exploit, even if it can be combatted by sinking the ship. I don't understand why, if this is perfectly acceptable, it's not possible to fill a ship with bots performing fines to get minimum influence.

There's no doubt the game's a bit broke (at least compared to expectations) when it's designed for more players than its current audience. But that doesn't mean I have to like the "creative work-arounds."
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--Mistymate


(Avatar by Sancha.)
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Luvessy at Sep 27, 2010 9:18:25 AM]
[Sep 27, 2010 9:16:25 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sagacious

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

I think people are exploding the alt-staffed ships tactic out of proportion - with talk of a blockade being unfun when faced with a bunch of alt-ships. One large ship being run by alts is apparently just as much of a problem as several smaller shops run by alts. So really, the only "solution" is to eliminate them completely - which is a stupid idea.

Pretty sure it would still be seen as a problem if each alt was managed by a player - but I think people are getting awkward feelings about it usually just being one person in control of so many alts.
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Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Sagacious at Sep 27, 2010 11:58:00 AM]
[Sep 27, 2010 11:48:03 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
harrjm

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

 
And no, not anyone can do it. You need to have 20 alts or so, don't you?

There are not many people that can field 20 alts at a time (just their alts alone), but there is nothing to say it has to all be one person. 1 alt here, 2 alts there, and if you get an entire flag together with their alts it can easily make 30+++. I don't know of too many people that just use 1 acct to play, but I don't hang out with newer players much. Nothing, except your own imagination, stops you from being creative with how to use your alts. I have 20+ accts because I had multiple shoppes that I ran with just my labor. One day during a blockade, I just said hey what will happen if I just put 9 alts on a WB and sail it out there. It was non-sinking so no big deal. I collected more points as an undeclared flag than the defenders, due to them fighting the attackers and not being able to address me. It's steadily gone from a few sloops, to 1 WB and sloops, to 2 WBs and a sloop or 2, to the massive WF that I can handle with just alts. And yep with a little help from other people even a GF has seen the blockade board with influence.

This wasn't initially started as a blockade tactic, but has transformed into a beast of an issue to deal with due to the fact that people don't like puzzling in blockades much anymore.


So I'll end this with a quote:
 
It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle

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Captain of Gods of War
King of Tyranny
Blockade madman
[Sep 27, 2010 12:36:48 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dylan

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

 
Nothing, except your own imagination, stops you from being creative with how to use your alts.


Are you trying to tell us that the terms of service are but a figment of your imagination?
[Sep 27, 2010 12:46:16 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
harrjm

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

 
 
Nothing, except your own imagination, stops you from being creative with how to use your alts.


Are you trying to tell us that the terms of service are but a figment of your imagination?

Of course, I read then reread them and just think of new ways to stretch them. Nothing like playing hopscotch with the TOS!
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Captain of Gods of War
King of Tyranny
Blockade madman
[Sep 27, 2010 12:58:59 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Luvessy

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

Nor do I think shoppes should be run with all alt labor...What we really seem to disagree with here is to what extent alts are okay. It's an old, tired argument.

I get that it doesn't have to be one player's alts. I still think it's a workaround and exploit to influence rules. I'll understaff a ship regularly in blockades to minimum influence; I think they should be real bodies. Furthermore, I do not think that being competitive in any aspect of the game should require multi-clienting, which is what wide-acceptance of this practice may tend toward.

I understand that not playing "that way" may put me at a disadvantage: it's harder for me to staff my shoppes (and certainly to compete with shoppes where individuals or crews are using "free labor"); I also have fewer people to put on a ship. Being at that disadvantage doesn't make me think I'm being uncreative - I simply think that's exploitive play and don't want to do it. Perhaps my flagmates, allies, and friends do; that's their perogative and I disagree.

 
So really, the only "solution" is to eliminate them completely - which is a stupid idea.

Why is a stupid idea?



From a broad game perspective, I'd rather the limitations of the size of the player base be addressed rather than people take advantage of hazy rules about multi-clienting. I've been around long enough to know that that's wishful thinking on the point of game design and longetivity.
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--Mistymate


(Avatar by Sancha.)
[Sep 27, 2010 12:59:52 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sagacious

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

People are forever telling me about how labour alts are a bad thing, or that you're not allowed to do it. Apparently foraging alts are 10x worse. I don't see why, seeing how commodity spawn rates seems to balance themselves out - and you do have to do some work in order to earn from such an operation. I think it just gets me when people are so adamant that doing things like that are against the rules - it's not. Last I heard, such things are "frowned upon".

If you think using alts in blockades is a big deal, head on over to World of Warcraft. There, you're able to create several accounts and use keystroke-relay software in order to control several characters at once. This means you can effectively level solo, clearing 5-man dungeons without having to get a group together, and cause havoc in battlegrounds. Blizzard's official stance on 'multi-boxing': "We're OK with it." People do it because it's fun, it's a challenge - and because really it's no different having one person in control of 5 characters than it is having 5 players in control of 1 character each. If they stick together and use the same tactics - they'll be just as powerful. People cry about it all the time, because when they encounter 5 shamans in-sync - they don't group up with others and work out a strategy to take them down - people just start HWFO and then give up after dying 20 times.
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Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple
[Sep 27, 2010 1:02:14 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
cmdrzoom

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

So what's your solution - "get your own (labor, foraging, blockade) alt army so you can keep up"? Do you not see how this ends up completely devaluing the individual pirate's effort?
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Starhawk of Mad Mutineers, Azure
Catalina of Twilight's Sabre, Cobalt
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by cmdrzoom at Sep 27, 2010 2:25:09 PM]
[Sep 27, 2010 2:23:30 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wonkothes

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

Labor alts paid real wages are bad, but slave labor of 1/1/1 is apparently perfectly acceptable, as is "required crew labor."

If the general issue is having more than one account, or more than 1 pirate, how does one check. If 4 room mates use the same computer and all have an account, how does OOO differentiate that from 1 person having 4 accounts on 1 computer.

I find the consistent boochers who get pay on alts that do no work to be more of an issue than alts not getting paid for no work in blockades. In rounds 1 and 2 at Byrne, Riot had a jobbing advantage. If Harr's alts are taken into consideration, Riot had more actual puzzlers than TO.

As has been stated, this tactic extends back before Harrjm started using it. He just uses larger ships, and more personally identifiable alts. Would it be less of an affront if it were 9 less identifiable alts on 3 sloops? The effect would be the same, but there wouldnt be a specific person to point to.


I am also confused as to how a dead in the water ship, not earning any poe, detracts from anyone elses fun. Especially in a blockade. Isn't one of the fun things to do on the ocean, sinking other ships? I certainly don't play in them for the pay. I frequently dont get paid for the blockades I'm in. I'm either the admiral, navving, or xoing. None of these positions get paid. I don't get paid to watch them, either, and try to see what other people are doing, or trying to do. Action is the only thing left that draws me in, and if I can pit my worst navver against a dead ship, repeatedly, they have fun, their crew sees action, instead of just sitting idly on flags, and they get paid for doing something.
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Wonkots Governor of Wrasse
Cleaver wrote: 
Your new Penguin Overlords will be along shortly to begin the long and 'difficult' process of 'correction'."

[Sep 27, 2010 2:46:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Luvessy

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Re: Mullins is a whiny little tart, and a liar

 
Labor alts paid real wages are bad, but slave labor of 1/1/1 is apparently perfectly acceptable, as is "required crew labor."


You're gonna have to explain your thinking on this one, cause it's pretty much the opposite of my opinion.
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--Mistymate


(Avatar by Sancha.)
[Sep 27, 2010 2:51:44 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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