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mlooney



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Loans (pawn shop) Reply to this Post
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background

Sorry if this has been done to death, but I agree that banks should not give loans, but i do think it would be very interesting/entertaining to somehow support the "rich pirate" idea, and as simply as possible, without rewriting the existing bank structure.

Just to get the conversation going, here's a use case:

Pete Poe has tons of cash, and is bored. decides it'd be fun to start up a fiduciary institution (ok, pete's kind of a dull guy). He sets up a table at the market, hangs out his shingle, and starts making loans. Pete will loan you n% of the current market value of any item, including a ship, sword, black suit, or whatever to anyone who hasn't defaulted before. As long as you return the full value of the loan, plus k% in two weeks, you'll get your item back.

Ok, that's the simple case. Lets look at the other simple case, that is loan default. Jane Gangrene takes out a 500poe loan on her 5000poe sword to fund a commodity run between alpha and turtle. Pete gives her the 500, locks up her sword, and gives her a claim ticket. If Jane were to say, lose most of that money to brigands on the high seas, miscalculate commodity prices, or simply can't pay back the 500+interest in 2 weeks for some reason, Pete puts Jane's sword up for auction in an attempt to make himslf whole (which he likely will, since the sword is worth 5000poe).

This presents an economic problem, since now instead of 5000 poe in the economy, we now magically have 5500 poe (when pete auctions the sword), which doesn't make any sense.

Well, the only thing i can think of is that the loan isn't made with poe, it's made out as a pawn certificate, which can be used to buy anything, just like poe, but expires in 2 weeks, along with whatever is purchased with it (commodities, swords, clothes disintigrate (or are siezed more likely)).

The pawn certificate unfortunately magically becomes a new currency. Adding a new currency like this sounds horrific to implement though. This expiration solution does solve the magic poe creation problem, and auctioning the security at a price less than value would also act as a bit of a sink.


What's to stop Jane from putting the certificate in her ship and logging in an alt to scoop it out and abscond with it (no doubt to the inn) ?

Naturally, it's non-transferrable.

Or the old chop-shop routine, where Jane uses the loan money to buy back her sword at the auction at a discount (pocketing the difference)?

Can't use pawn certs at pawn auctions (you sly dog).


Naturally, there'd have to be all sorts of fees and costs in running this sort of business (lawyers, kneecappers etc etc), which can be a sink as well.


I'd like to remove the pawn certificate and the item tie-in, as I'd imagine that would be a big deal to implement.

Anyway, just something to get the gears turning.

I'd also love to see a very simple shipping insurance system as well (talk about a huge money sink, maybe pawn shops would be required to offer insurance as well). This would spurr on more pvp and risk taking I think.


insurance and money lending are 2 very important pillars of any market economy, i'd love to see them implemented.

again, my apologies if this has already been proposed and discussed.
[Feb 15, 2005 10:38:56 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Parthanos

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The only way a 'pawn' or consignment/loan system would work, in my opinion, would be a consignment system. Defined as: a system which loans 1/2 the market worth of any deed or item for x period of time, with a percent in poe mark up.

I am not sure how hard that would be to implement, but the real pain I would guess is determining value and somehow updating it in game (for deeds, etc.). I'm not sure this was the intent behind pawn shoppes, though lonas have some potential if done correctly.
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[Feb 15, 2005 10:43:22 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    AlaskanParamedic@yahoo.com [Link]  Go to top 
scupperer

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I believe that we are all, openly or secretly, struggling against one or another kind of nihilism. - Ellen Willis
[Feb 15, 2005 11:36:32 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.scupperer.com [Link]  Go to top 
BehindCurtai

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As long as the loans are between players, there is no economic exploit. That only happens when the computer acts as the market.

And, I recall coming up with similar ideas LONG, LONG ago, back when LongJohnGrey was still in Scabby Sea Rats, before I started using this forum account for OOC posts. (At least as far as ship loans go). Found it was old news then -- Rifkind had a similar idea going back to beta or alpha.
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Nemo
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And I didn't like loans then. It undermines one of the three arms of progression in the game (acquisition of skills, mates, property). It isn't a game, but rather is lopsided gambling that preys on greed and desperation.
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[Feb 15, 2005 2:23:24 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jacktheblack

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Aye, some people do that right now with out the benefit of the computer doing it for them.
[Feb 15, 2005 2:28:22 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    jacktheblackypp    samergamer [Link]  Go to top 
Parthanos

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Nemo wrote: 
And I didn't like loans then. It undermines one of the three arms of progression in the game (acquisition of skills, mates, property). It isn't a game, but rather is lopsided gambling that preys on greed and desperation.


That is one side. Another is giving oppurtunity to newer players and flags. There is a plus side to this, and both should be considered fully. I personally am not an advocate of either at present, but I see some potential gains, and also a greater flexability for individual pirates, new flags, new mates or those upgrading their properties etc. to be aided, which is a very good thing. Players do fill this role, and because it does now exist, I feel some argument could be made for standardizing the system, so that more legitimate means exist, and also, because it offers it to a broader base, rather than to those 'in the know'. As such, and because there is precident, I feel the idea should be explored and perhaps implemented, if we can insulate the system from abuse.
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[Feb 15, 2005 2:37:39 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    AlaskanParamedic@yahoo.com [Link]  Go to top 
dbt



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If I were gonna offer loans on a ship deed, I'd do it on a doubloons ocean where do nothing pirates are cheap to create and they can join the crew o' the borrower and borrower can use the ship. On any ocean you can do shop deed loans but really do shopowners need 'em?

No, if I were gonna offer financial services on midnight I'd probably do somethin' else, though I'm curious if the Ringers would mind it.
[Feb 15, 2005 2:58:10 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nemo
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Parthanos wrote: 
That is one side. Another is giving oppurtunity to newer players and flags. There is a plus side to this, and both should be considered fully. I personally am not an advocate of either at present, but I see some potential gains, and also a greater flexability for individual pirates, new flags, new mates or those upgrading their properties etc. to be aided, which is a very good thing. Players do fill this role, and because it does now exist, I feel some argument could be made for standardizing the system, so that more legitimate means exist, and also, because it offers it to a broader base, rather than to those 'in the know'. As such, and because there is precident, I feel the idea should be explored and perhaps implemented, if we can insulate the system from abuse.


Those doing it now are arriving at it through one of the branches of progression. It is a reward of social connection and community cooperation achieved while playing the game. If it were standardized and removed from this context, then it becomes all the things I said. It is no longer a function of friendship and loyalty, but a get-rich-quick scheme that is guaranteed not to pay out for someone. Just dealing with the complaints of the existing in-crew loans is a huge support headache. Dealing with these would be even more so, regardless of the "fairness" of any game interface created for it. It will make people unhappy.
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[Feb 16, 2005 1:10:44 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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scupperer wrote: 


Scupperer, sometimes I don't think you get enough credit (no pun intended). That was genius.
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CrazyMorg



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homullus wrote: 
scupperer wrote: 
http://www.ehlinger.com/puzzle/needPOEfast.jpg

Scupperer, sometimes I don't think you get enough credit (no pun intended). That was genius.


indeed, that was great

2 thumbs up to scupperer
[Feb 16, 2005 1:46:32 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
mlooney



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Nemo wrote: 


Those doing it now are arriving at it through one of the branches of progression. It is a reward of social connection and community cooperation achieved while playing the game. If it were standardized and removed from this context, then it becomes all the things I said. It is no longer a function of friendship and loyalty, but a get-rich-quick scheme that is guaranteed not to pay out for someone. Just dealing with the complaints of the existing in-crew loans is a huge support headache. Dealing with these would be even more so, regardless of the "fairness" of any game interface created for it. It will make people unhappy.


I'm sure people are doing it now, and I'm also sure they are only doing it to close mateys. The issue is there is no in-game support for the security handling, and no way for a lender to make his service known. If the security handling isn't an issue (and i'm not convinced it is), then all that's needed is a way for the lender to offer his services (other than by annoying people at the pier)
[Feb 16, 2005 2:07:56 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Parthanos

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Those doing it now are arriving at it through one of the branches of progression. It is a reward of social connection and community cooperation achieved while playing the game. If it were standardized and removed from this context, then it becomes all the things I said. It is no longer a function of friendship and loyalty, but a get-rich-quick scheme that is guaranteed not to pay out for someone. Just dealing with the complaints of the existing in-crew loans is a huge support headache. Dealing with these would be even more so, regardless of the "fairness" of any game interface created for it. It will make people unhappy.


However, adding the feature does not remove the social setting or connection. I don't think you could remove that context, even if you choose to attempt to do so, as people have an informal relationship established. Here's the problem though: friends help friends (rightfull so), but it leaves out those without those connections. So the same folks can finance moves again and again, and in turn, help those who helped them, and so on. The problem is that the system in place now does excude many: unless we can balance this, the 'proletariat' must find sponsorship from those with wealth. This also socially is a factor linking smaller flags to larger ones, thus reducing conflict. If I loan flag ! x poe, most likely I indebt them to me. This is good in a social/political sense, but it gives large financial powers some undue influence over smaller bodies/crews/flags. A proposed system for loans would even this out a bit, and again would focus more on people without access to the social/wealthy cast.

Mean time, loans as they exist now would continue, and probably always will. All this really does is take some deeds out of the market, and provide a way for a smaller crew/flag to advance without ties, something quite desirable if we are to push the ends of conflict. Equality is an important design as well, so I do think this has merit.

Again though, I am not for or against this idea. I am explore this both to offer counter points and to also see where I stand, which remains pro and con to this idea at present:)
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[Feb 16, 2005 3:03:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    AlaskanParamedic@yahoo.com [Link]  Go to top 
Theologist

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Bump.

the Pawn shop might end all the spams in the inn by possibly create more doubloon sink.
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BRAINSTORMING.. every idea doesn't have to be practical, but it might just trigger a good workable idea from someone else

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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Faulkston at Dec 17, 2009 11:56:46 PM]
[Dec 17, 2009 11:11:51 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Faulkston

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Advertising in inns would have to be banned, right?

Uncertain about the doubloon sink aspect, more details required. How is that mechanism proposed to work? And what's the counterpart on subscription oceans?
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Faulkston at Dec 17, 2009 11:59:21 PM]
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