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Strider399

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An open letter to the public, and Three Rings regarding blockades Reply to this Post
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Ahoy!

Anybody in the current blockade game should know the "normal" routine of getting a blockade put together. You need to move your fleet of (mostly) War Frigs and War Brigs to the island. You need to move all your stock, and supplies. You need to get your entire cade staff (Admirals, Vice Admirals, Navers, XO's, JC's etc.) organized, and put together. You (usually) secure some sort of voice communication channel. And finally, you need to make sure your blockade crew is organized and in order.

What I'm curious about, is whether or not Three Rings originally planned for blockades to be this in-depth. When you look at the official blockade documentation, you see things like:

Three Rings wrote: 
A successful blockade involves substantial coordination of pirates, vessels, and material


Did you intend for flags to take advantage of the easy sources of communication, such as Ventrilo and Teamspeak?

Did you foresee flags using one blockade crew for everything, or did you think flags would have each of their crews attempt to attract jobbers and fill ships?

Did you expect primarily War Frigs and War Brigs to be used? Or was your original intent to have ships of all sizes scurrying around?

Did you plan for there to be specific roles in each blockade? (Admirals, Vice Admirals, Navers, XO's, JC's etc.)

Did you foresee grudge matches, and tarting that usually results on the forums?


Those are some of the questions that I've been pondering for the past few days. Anybody can feel free to give their input to them, but I'd really like to see ringer-responses to those questions.
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[Apr 9, 2010 2:33:04 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
sweetnessc

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Re: An open letter to the public, and Three Rings regarding blockades Reply to this Post
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I think most of your questions are answered by the original format of blockades as 24 hour ventures declarable any day of the week (cutters won rounds). It was expected that people would field ships from multiple crews, though, I believe.
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[Apr 9, 2010 2:54:24 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dylan

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Re: An open letter to the public, and Three Rings regarding blockades Reply to this Post
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It was expected that people would field ships from multiple crews, though, I believe.


Actually, since Ventrilo and TeamSpeak were newish at the time, and players were naive and shy, officer chat used to be the way to communicate in blockades afore ye were a babe, Sweets.

I don't speak for Cleaver, but I'm absolutely certain he was aware of "roles" in blockades, as well as grudges in general.

Then again, I have a serious grudge against the man for playing @sx years before me, and then designing the game I played in the mid-late 90's which was old by the time I got there (it is still going, btw).
[Apr 9, 2010 3:25:20 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lazyeyes1991

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Re: An open letter to the public, and Three Rings regarding blockades Reply to this Post
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I think if they had any problems with how things are currently going, Then they would make some changes.


I assume that you posted this because you dislike how the current Blockade situation is? Same ships, and Older flags tend to Keep the islands? unless jobbing numbers don't go their way, and they have bad navers.

I would like to see a blind kind of jobbing thing. just won main button 'job in a blockade' and will send you to whatever sides boat that has lower jobbing numbers, would stop One sided blockades (where one flag out jobs the other 2:1). Allied pirates always go to there Allies, and whoever pays the most gets the jobbers even if they are out jobbing, but you can only raise your Pay every 15minutes. gives the other side a chance to match it. with a minimum raise of 100 poe.

Like that will ever happen though.
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Lesgreg
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Lazyeyes1991 at Apr 9, 2010 5:19:04 PM]
[Apr 9, 2010 5:18:41 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Strider399

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Re: An open letter to the public, and Three Rings regarding blockades Reply to this Post
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Not at all.

I'm just curious about how OOO originally planned for blockades to be run, and how different it is from their envisionment.
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[Apr 9, 2010 6:39:55 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
SirCarl67

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Re: An open letter to the public, and Three Rings regarding blockades Reply to this Post
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I think if they had any problems with how things are currently going, Then they would make some changes.


I assume that you posted this because you dislike how the current Blockade situation is? Same ships, and Older flags tend to Keep the islands? unless jobbing numbers don't go their way, and they have bad navers.

I would like to see a blind kind of jobbing thing. just won main button 'job in a blockade' and will send you to whatever sides boat that has lower jobbing numbers, would stop One sided blockades (where one flag out jobs the other 2:1). Allied pirates always go to there Allies, and whoever pays the most gets the jobbers even if they are out jobbing, but you can only raise your Pay every 15minutes. gives the other side a chance to match it. with a minimum raise of 100 poe.

Like that will ever happen though.


I can think of 6 ways people choose which flag to job for in a blockade:

1. Highest pay
2. Instructions of Royals in their own flag (basically formal or informal allies
3. Jobbing for hearties (or against enemies)
4. Jobbing for the side that is losing (in the hope that it lasts longer so an extra round of pay
5. Who ever is winning to have a warm feeling of being on the winning side
6. Random

6 should even out over all the jobbers and while I expects 4 and 5 are quite small groups I suspect that 4 is bigger than 5 giving a natural balancing out effect.

Your proposal would mean that I am unable to choose to job for hearties, or those with a good reputation in the game unless they happen to be paying more or formally allied to my flag.

It would also mean that evey weekend there would be a huge number of alliances formed just for the weekend as the Royals of flag A seeing a blockade between Flag B and Flag C allay to Flag B so their crew will job for there prefered flag. Come Monday the alliance would end. Crew issues has enough spam of flag alliances as it is.
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[Apr 11, 2010 5:26:07 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lazyeyes1991

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Re: An open letter to the public, and Three Rings regarding blockades Reply to this Post
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Your proposal would mean that I am unable to choose to job for hearties, or those with a good reputation in the game unless they happen to be paying more or formally allied to my flag.

It would also mean that evey weekend there would be a huge number of alliances formed just for the weekend as the Royals of flag A seeing a blockade between Flag B and Flag C allay to Flag B so their crew will job for there prefered flag. Come Monday the alliance would end. Crew issues has enough spam of flag alliances as it is.


like i said, it will never happen.
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Lesgreg
[Apr 11, 2010 10:38:54 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
SirCarl67

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Re: An open letter to the public, and Three Rings regarding blockades Reply to this Post
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Actually what I would lke to see is the maximum blockade pay capped at say 1000 or 1500 per seg.

This is still way more than pirates can earn pillaging or in atlantis.
It would encourage more flags to blockade
While there might still be one sided blockades it would be determined by skill at the social puzzle. If a lot of people don't like you because you increase tax to 100% you can't compensate for it by paying 5k per seg.
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Apollo tells ye "If you're ok for me to do one [bake-off], I'll go with that."
[Apr 13, 2010 4:45:45 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
smileo

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Re: An open letter to the public, and Three Rings regarding blockades Reply to this Post
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1. Highest pay
2. Instructions of Royals in their own flag (basically formal or informal allies
3. Jobbing for hearties (or against enemies)
4. Jobbing for the side that is losing (in the hope that it lasts longer so an extra round of pay
5. Who ever is winning to have a warm feeling of being on the winning side
6. Random


7. Whoever appears to be going into it with the best spirit.

I am relatively apolitical, and tend to go for this one.

8. Whoever proffers the best island manifesto
9. Whoevers intent made you laugh the most

ok Im getting silly now, but 7 srsly
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[Apr 13, 2010 4:52:02 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
cmdrzoom

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Re: An open letter to the public, and Three Rings regarding blockades Reply to this Post
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I would kick that list up to 10, and make 1-4 "Highest pay."
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[Apr 13, 2010 9:23:16 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Luvessy

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Re: An open letter to the public, and Three Rings regarding blockades Reply to this Post
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I still prefer to not use voice chat for blockades. =-p


I would love to see pay caps.
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[Apr 13, 2010 10:32:32 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ewige

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Re: An open letter to the public, and Three Rings regarding blockades Reply to this Post
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Clearly, it would need to be a point system.

+5 points for a clever flag name. -12 points for a misspelled flag name (unless it's cleverly misspelled). +8 points for a flag history of placing cleverly named shops in good places. -33 points for a flag history of placing poorly named shops in bad spots. Etc. Etc.

As a bonus, the code you'd need to make that sort of judgment automatically will inevitably awaken into some kind of piratey SkyNet.
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[Apr 13, 2010 1:58:19 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
cmdrzoom

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[Apr 13, 2010 2:05:08 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Gloraelin

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Re: An open letter to the public, and Three Rings regarding blockades Reply to this Post
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I don't honestly think that pay caps will be coded into the game, since that's entirely the social puzzle at play. Pay was originally capped at 999 but since they moved it up to just short of 10k, I don't think they'll REcap it.

Sure, you can do a mutually agreed on pay cap, but I don't think it should be coded in.
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SirCarl67

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Re: An open letter to the public, and Three Rings regarding blockades Reply to this Post
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I don't honestly think that pay caps will be coded into the game, since that's entirely the social puzzle at play. Pay was originally capped at 999 but since they moved it up to just short of 10k, I don't think they'll REcap it.

Sure, you can do a mutually agreed on pay cap, but I don't think it should be coded in.


While I agree that it is unlikelyt that a pay cap (less than 9999) will be coded in I can't agree that the lack of a pay cap is the social game at play.

Most methods of getting enormous quantities of poe are an individual. Almost all familiars are awarded for individual endevour (be it competitions, forum events, or tournaments), so the people who win and sell familiars regualarly do not need to be partcularly adept at the social puzzle. Poker players are also competing in an individual competition. It could be argued that people with a chain of shoppes negotiate with their competitors and woo employees and customers so there is a certain amount of social skills there but in the main it is about buying low, selling higher and setting wages at the right level.

Putting up a pay offer of 8k a seg does not require social skills and unless the opponents have equally deep pockets (and desperation to own the island) will result in an almost guaranteed win.

Pay being capped at a rate many flags can afford means you have to attract more jobbers than the opponents while paying the same rate (or at least close enough that you can win by better navving / faster reloading ships / having higher skilled jobbers/ ...). This will involve negotiation with neutral flags, having aims for the island that will attract pirates to your side
all of which require the blockading flag to be highly skilled at the social puzzle)
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Apollo tells ye "If you're ok for me to do one [bake-off], I'll go with that."
[Apr 14, 2010 10:28:19 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Luvessy

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Re: An open letter to the public, and Three Rings regarding blockades Reply to this Post
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The real problem with pay caps stems to a history lesson...

Remember that there was a time before blockade pay was coded into the game, and people jobbed for blockades based on which side they wanted to win or where their friends were.

It was during this time that some flags realized that they could get more jobbers buy paying them to work for them, particularly those who were neutral. (Some flags would advertise this a "reward" or "compensation" for their jobbers' time.) And so they did, figuring out a variety of ways to redistribute eights to pirates without any game mechanic for it.

So, if there were a hard-coded paycap, what's to stop someone from paying more anyway? And therein lies your social puzzle...


All that said, I think that the entry barrier to blockading shouldn't be about having millions of eights to pay jobbers.
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[Apr 14, 2010 11:10:41 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Spelunk

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Re: An open letter to the public, and Three Rings regarding blockades Reply to this Post
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I would love to see pay caps.


Remember; payment used to be done manually... so even WITH pay caps, one could still pay as much as wanted.
[Apr 14, 2010 1:48:34 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Luvessy

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Kotetsu534



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Re: An open letter to the public, and Three Rings regarding blockades Reply to this Post
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The problem is that for large swathes of the playerbase, the only meaning derived from an upcoming blockade is the hope of jobbing pay, so that's the deciding factor in whether, and who with, they job. Make blockades - make island ownership - mean more to the game and pay will become but one of a number of influences on the unaligned jobber, and cease to be a silver bullet.
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[Apr 14, 2010 3:43:22 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
cmdrzoom

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About five years too late for that.

EDIT: And looking back at when it was all about the who and why, and how serious that sometimes got, maybe it's for the best that today's average jobber is only concerned about who's paying more, not who's Right. Makes it more like a game.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by cmdrzoom at Apr 14, 2010 4:08:04 PM]
[Apr 14, 2010 4:03:26 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
BobJanova

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With doubs transferrable between oceans, you're always going to have a significant number of floating jobbers from oceans where there is no blockade this week if you set the pay high enough. And they're never going to care about the politics, flag history, reputation etc of people and organisations on an ocean they never play on. I've done this myself, hopping onto Sage or Hunter for a blockade without having the first clue about the sides or the oceans.
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nunny_45

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Re: An open letter to the public, and Three Rings regarding blockades Reply to this Post
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The real problem with pay caps stems to a history lesson...

Remember that there was a time before blockade pay was coded into the game, and people jobbed for blockades based on which side they wanted to win or where their friends were.

It was during this time that some flags realized that they could get more jobbers buy paying them to work for them, particularly those who were neutral. (Some flags would advertise this a "reward" or "compensation" for their jobbers' time.) And so they did, figuring out a variety of ways to redistribute eights to pirates without any game mechanic for it.

So, if there were a hard-coded paycap, what's to stop someone from paying more anyway? And therein lies your social puzzle...


All that said, I think that the entry barrier to blockading shouldn't be about having millions of eights to pay jobbers.


Aye, but it would atleast require more effort then just "alter pay higher".
Even if it doesnt remove paywars, a paycap would atleast cause some positive effects on the current situation, and create a stepping stone in finding more suitible ways to reduce blockade cost.
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Nunny
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by nunny_45 at Apr 15, 2010 7:55:41 AM]
[Apr 15, 2010 7:52:37 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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If there was a hard coded pay cap that was low enough to initially hit on a somewhat regular basis, people would soon expect it to be hit all the time.

I remember when 1k per round (200PoE/seg) was "high pay" and 2k/round was "just buying an island and horrible."

I don't think using the old manual pay methods would work as well now that the automatic pay methods are active. No matter how well a flag advertises that they are paying 10 times the advertised blockade pay rate via manual means (forum posts, tournaments, OIC notice board bubbles, etc.), I think most people would still choose the higher actual pay. However, if there is a pay cap that is low enough that both sides revert to manual methods right from the start, then it probably work ok.

Other disincentives to raising pay rates too much might be much more effective. For example, if a percentage of all your jobber pay was given to the winner, while a percentage of the winners jobber pay gets sunk would discourage some bidding wars. If you grossly outpay your competitor, you are just driving up your costs even if you win, and if you lose, you are handing the other side a bunch of PoE.

Locking in the amount of jobber pay up front might discourage irrational pay wars, but not hurt well thought out pay rates.

All in all, I don't think direct pay caps are the way to go, but I don't think that the threat of going manual is a good reason not to explore other means.
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[Apr 15, 2010 9:19:05 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
DeepNine

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Gloraelin wrote: 
I don't honestly think that pay caps will be coded into the game, since that's entirely the social puzzle at play.

Robertdonald originally used pay to garner jobbers as a way to circumvent having to play the social puzzle. People still do that now, with varying levels of success.
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[Apr 15, 2010 11:22:12 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Robertdonald originally used pay to garner jobbers as a way to circumvent having to play the social puzzle. People still do that now, with varying levels of success.

Really? I thought it was because he didn't feel that jobbers should be ripped off and not get paid for their time. It is rare that a flag member gets anything out of the flag owning an island, all the benefits usually go to a very select few. Of course, those select few are often the ones paying the bulk, but still, why should cabin people puzzle for hours so that the captain can get a new shipyard and bragging rights?

I'd say that paying jobbers for their time was a very successful social puzzle move.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[Apr 15, 2010 12:07:37 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
DeepNine

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I thought it was because he didn't feel that jobbers should be ripped off and not get paid for their time.

We certainly do like to idolize our legends. While that may be part of it, his primary motive behind that (and almost everything he did) was to win on his terms.
 
I'd say that paying jobbers for their time was a very successful social puzzle move.

RD abhorred the use of the phrase 'social puzzle' and actively tried to undermine its existence while he played. He believed the game should be won by ability and not who you knew, spurning pandering to the existing powers in favor of other, at-the-time unorthodox ways of getting jobber support and creating advantages on the blockade board.

Paying people will get them to job for you, if not like you. You don't have to actually talk or get to know or interact with them on any level - that is, play the social puzzle - but it's still socially beneficial.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by DeepNine at Apr 15, 2010 12:50:39 PM]
[Apr 15, 2010 12:40:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
cmdrzoom

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Imagine if you could push a button in the duty puzzles (Bilging et al) and feed poe and/or doubloons into a slot to score a Vegas. With the depth of your pockets the only limit.
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[Apr 15, 2010 12:48:38 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dylan

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Imagine if you could push a button in the duty puzzles (Bilging et al) and feed poe and/or doubloons into a slot to score a Vegas. With the depth of your pockets the only limit.


Like Zynga games?
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wrs1864b

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I thought it was because he didn't feel that jobbers should be ripped off and not get paid for their time.

We certainly do like to idolize our legends. While that may be part of it, his primary motive behind that (and almost everything he did) was to win on his terms.

We certainly do like to demonize our legends. While RD may have looked out for himself, in the case of jobber pay, I'd say those flag royals that didn't think they needed to pay jobbers (and flaggies) were much much worse.

For the record, I don't like a lot of things RD did, but I'll give him credit on this subject.
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redwinej

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Personally i dont see a difference between using pay for your jobbers and using social skills. One person is very skilled in game at obtaining vast amounts of poe. The other is skilled a getting people that are skilled to help them where they are lacking. The problem with this is frequently people attack pay as the only problem. I say flags using out of ocean nav'ers and you can even tie it closer to out of alliance nav'ers or kade staff is just s much a problem if not more. When some one goes around collecting people that can make their flag look better then it actually is because few of the people are more then weekend crewbies that participate in blockades sometimes the only defense for those is to out pay them. To tie up one persons skill set with out tying the other up only benefits the ones good at the skill that is not tied. I have no doubt that when flags stop bring in out of alliance blockade teams to do their dirty work that pay will decrease with it. This is shown on sage every weekend. Every ocean that has problems with pay for blockades also has problems with out of alliance blockade teams.
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Redtwo- On every dub ocean
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Iron Monger- Holy Foil on Bowditch
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