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dalnoth

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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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Now is anyone else seeing interesting contradictions in these 2 threads, or is it just me?


I think it's just you considering this thread has turned from talking about Apples to bowling balls. It's not about how important the game is to Jackpot, what she feels about the situation, or about "The modern world".

It's about if continual blockading non stop among other tactics fall under Cleaver's definition of attrition. Perhaps if you spent time actually debating that and the argument at hand instead of the poster this would go somewhere.
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Dalnoth
Novo tells ye, "Howtie removed me as a manager from her tailor, my wager swordfighting career is over :(."
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cmdrzoom

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Considering what can be done to a treasured island in as little as one week under another flag, even under the current rules - and what was done to an island, directly leading to those rules being made - there is a strong motivation for players with personal investment in an island to do whatever it takes to assure uninterrupted control.

tl;dr - if I came into your home and trashed it, sprayed graffiti on the walls, etc, would you be upset? I mean, it's just a place; it's just stuff. It can all be fixed or replaced, so why does it matter, right?
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[Feb 8, 2010 1:45:43 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Talisker

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tl;dr - if I came into your home and trashed it, sprayed graffiti on the walls, etc, would you be upset? I mean, it's just a place; it's just stuff. It can all be fixed or replaced, so why does it matter, right?


Typically, I'd point out that there's quite a difference between RL and the game, and that failing to realize that is what causes people to neglect friends and families for pixels. But I'm pretty sure you knew I'd say that.
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I can't respond because I do not understand what the hell you are talking about. Sorry.

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[Feb 8, 2010 2:42:52 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
cmdrzoom

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Real or virtual, stuff is stuff and work is work. In neither case is anyone actually (physically) hurt or anything taken. It's just vandalism. Which means hey, no harm no foul, right?

Also, as far as the game is concerned, a painted and renamed brig that was given to you by your former captain (who no longer plays) when you made senior officer is functionally identical to a tan Ordinary Blowfish that came out of a yard yesterday. So it's silly to get upset if it sinks.
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Starhawk of Mad Mutineers, Azure
Catalina of Twilight's Sabre, Cobalt
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[Edit 3 times, last edit by cmdrzoom at Feb 8, 2010 3:36:35 PM]
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IantheKorean

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Real or virtual, stuff is stuff and work is work. In neither case is anyone actually (physically) hurt or anything taken. It's just vandalism. Which means hey, no harm no foul, right?

Also, as far as the game is concerned, a painted and renamed brig that was given to you by your former captain (who no longer plays) when you made senior officer is functionally identical to a tan Ordinary Blowfish that came out of a yard yesterday. So it's silly to get upset if it sinks.


If you consider additional pixel buildings on your pixel island that no one actually walks around on to be vandalism so be it. It's a really preposterous notion that blockades should be adjusted around people so far divorced from the reality of the situation though.
[Feb 8, 2010 3:42:24 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
cmdrzoom

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In baseball, very few people get attached to the bases. Not the runners, for sure. At most, a veteran third baseman might get (the latest) one given to him on retirement. Rarely.

In Puzzle Pirates, we let people build houses on them. And then mock them when they develop a sense of attachment.
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[Feb 8, 2010 3:48:50 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
IantheKorean

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In baseball, very few people get attached to the bases. Not the runners, for sure. At most, a veteran third baseman might get (the latest) one given to him on retirement. Rarely.

In Puzzle Pirates, we let people build houses on them. And then mock them when they develop a sense of attachment.


I don't see how a change in island ownership is going to adversely affect any pirates living there.
[Feb 8, 2010 3:50:37 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
cmdrzoom

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It's indicative of a fundamental difference:

In one game, or to one type of players, an island is a trinket - a goal, a prize, a space on the board. It exists to be won, lost, traded and exploited.

To another, it is home - a part of their identity, something obtained by good mates working together for hours or days or even weeks of real time in-game, the place of fond memories.

When these two groups and goal-sets come into contact, conflict is inevitable. I've said before that Three Rings should make it clear islands are one or the other, as they can't be both without causing problems. One way would be to make an ocean consisting solely of Ringer-managed larges for people to put down roots and enjoy their Stuff in safety, and lots of outposts for people to trade back and forth like Control Points in a Team Fortress 2 match without getting sentimental about.
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[Feb 8, 2010 3:59:23 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
IantheKorean

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It's indicative of a fundamental difference:

In one game, or to one type of players, an island is a trinket - a goal, a prize, a space on the board. It exists to be won, lost, traded and exploited.

To another, it is home - a part of their identity, something obtained by good mates working together for hours or days or even weeks of real time in-game, the place of fond memories.

When these two groups and goal-sets come into contact, conflict is inevitable. I've said before that Three Rings should make it clear islands are one or the other, as they can't be both without causing problems. One way would be to make an ocean consisting solely of Ringer-managed larges for people to put down roots and enjoy their Stuff in safety, and lots of outposts for people to trade back and forth like Control Points in a Team Fortress 2 match without getting sentimental about.


I'm suggesting those who see a pixel island as a "home" are possibly mentally unstable. No I'm not a psychologist, but if you've formed that sort of attachment to something in a videogame then you obviously have an unhealthy obsession. I don't see why you want want to further facilitate and encourage such behavior.
[Feb 8, 2010 4:01:34 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
cmdrzoom

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You're right, of course. Though I don't know why I'm bothering to respond to you, since you're not a real person. I mean, I see the words, but they're obviously the product of a computer program, just a little more sophisticated than the swabbies blathering on about the fresh sea air. There's no one to form relationships or attachments with, no one to be hearties or share secrets and gossip with, because that's something only people do, and you're just 1s and 0s, beeps and clicks.

Or maybe you're in my head, a hallucination or figment. That's an interesting notion. When I close this browser window, do you still exist?
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[Feb 8, 2010 4:32:38 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dylan

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Zoom, I'm disappointed.

You've been the voice of sanity for many threads over the years, but the whole "home" thing is rubbish and you seem to know it from your last post.

A GD decision was made that the players would essentially have full control of the politics and economy of the ocean. Most games aren't multi-player, but those that are force you into a small choice of factions; sometimes just one anyway.

OOO has made mistakes, and although I won't go deeper into RD's methods, they decided what "Yes or No" was a long time ago. The attackers MUST make a decent effort for the first round; sending a sloop in for "attrition" is not acceptable.

There are gaming ways to solve these problems, but YPP is a unique trailblazer in being able to have 400 v 400 battles for virtual pixels, and some of us like it that way.

Analogy time: My rugby club's 1st XV had a bad start to the season (1 win in 7) but we've now had 6 wins on the trot, putting us 5th in a league of 10. We won't "win the island", although we are still at a (small) risk of relegation. But even if that happens, we won't lose OUR CLUB.

The "home", the "identity", of any player, should be first and foremost their crew, their flag, or even just their hearties. Not an island, nor even a luxurious villa on Guava with 5 fully stocked bars, a distillery in the kitchen, and every table you could want. Home is friends. Just like my club.
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OdorOfFrodo

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Considering what can be done to a treasured island in as little as one week under another flag, even under the current rules - and what was done to an island, directly leading to those rules being made - there is a strong motivation for players with personal investment in an island to do whatever it takes to assure uninterrupted control.

tl;dr - if I came into your home and trashed it, sprayed graffiti on the walls, etc, would you be upset? I mean, it's just a place; it's just stuff. It can all be fixed or replaced, so why does it matter, right?

Some other large distinctions...in the real world, you have no mechanism with which to win my house. So the property is continuously mine, which is why it's damaging MY property. When someone wins an island, it's theirs. Assuming they won it without cheating, or using underhanded tactics (and no, blockading week after week is not underhanded, though I would consider it annoying...but hey, you wins your island, you takes your chances; you pays your money, you takes your choice), it's a fair and square victory, and they can do whatever the hell they want with it.

Also, if you consider raising money and participating in blockades every week to be work...why are you playing this game? It's supposed to be fun. You know, a game. If you aren't having fun, stop playing it, don't complain about how other people are having fun and that you can't have any. You limit your own fun by doing this.
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Obviously this calls for dressing up as Karl Marx.

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Culiford

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There's no in game mechanism to take your house either. Housing doesn't have anything to do with island ownership or how many buildings a flag drops on an island. Neither do shoppes or ships. Nor does your flag.

The things you do in the game to make money are supposed to be fun. Pillages, flotillas, SMH, CI, tournaments, poker, whatever it is that you're doing a lot to make money for blockades should be fun for you. If you aren't having fun making the money for blockading, then you probably aren't having fun with anything else in the game either.

 
The "home", the "identity", of any player, should be first and foremost their crew, their flag, or even just their hearties. Not an island,

This. Islands are trophies, your friends are your home.
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Timwiles

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The point isn't about being blockaded weekend after weekend. Blockades are awesome, and island holders should be prepared to cade and if they don't want to take the time and effort, they shouldn't be holding an island.

But this case is so fundamentally different because one flag was blockading purely to waste another's resources. Yes, they did not send a sloop in, but the rounds were never really closely contested (from what I've seen and participated in and from what I've heard).

Since real life analogies are all the rage right now, consider this:

You are a fine art collector, and you absolutely love your art. You love collecting it, cataloging it, and restoring it. You spend countless hours working on your collection and are the best in your field at restoring and are the most learned when it comes to art.

Since you are an avid collector, you attend art auctions every week. Things go great for a while and you are able to outbid your opponents. This is all well and you don't mind paying high prices because you love art. However, one week, someone who hates you comes in and drives up your bidding to preposterous levels. They state that the only reason they are at the auction is to drive you broke. They aren't interested in art one bit and have no interest in actually purchasing the art.

This is fine for the first week and the second week. You love your art and are the best at what you do, so you outbid to the top and keep doing what you love even though it is costing you alot more.

But then the same person keeps showing up week after week after week with the sole intent of making you spend as much money as they can so you will stop collecting the art.

After a time, while you still have the resources to buy art, you start to lose excitement in your work and the purchases you make. You wish the other person would not be allowed to bid on the art any more, because they don't collect and don't know anything about it. While you still win your auctions every week and restore your paintings, you take no enjoyment any more out of it, and your passion has been ruined by someone who's only goal was to do just that.
.........................................
Now replace the art with the island, the art collector with the appropriate flag, and the person trying to make the collector go broke with the other flag. How is this NOT seen as attrition?
It's not a perfect example, because islands are not just "bought", but i think it kind of embodies what happened.
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Snowpixie

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Well the quote was just too long, but I believe driving people out of business using suspiciously similar tactics for SHOPKEEPING is, within game, considered acceptable, if not nice.

My my, those similarities just keep popping up, don't they? I'm sure some clever person will come along and explain the difference to me though.

Pass the popcorn, someone?
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[Feb 9, 2010 2:14:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
IantheKorean

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Yeah the analogies are just getting even dumber here, it's a frickin' pixel island not some rare Picasso. You investing this amount of feelings into a pixel island is an all around bad idea as I've said multiple times. Why is it a bad idea? Because thus far there has been no indication, from a design perspective, that the islands were meant to reach some peak point of colonization after which no more buildings were meant to be constructed beyond the physical limits of the island. Would it be nice and dandy if all island holders decided it was more fun to keep them to be what the original thought was aesthetically pleasing? Maybe, but once ownership passes it's no longer the decision of that flag.

And as long as a attacking flag is putting forth enough of an effort in the blockade that it's still close to contestable I don't see any room for complaint regardless of it bothering the current holder. The island holder putting value in collecting islands as trinkets has made a fatal flaw in assuming islands are anything more than a means to an end to play the blockade game. Or at least the idea that holding the islands is a necessary part of the collection game; make a wiki page for your flag, keep a list of your conquests and voila, your collection lives on beyond your personal time holding the island. Unless you're trying to break some kind of record holding multiple islands or one for a length of time, in which case who cares who the attacking flag is, because again holding an island inherently comes with the risk of being blockaded every weekend and you should've been prepared for such eventualities and have only yourself to blame if you can no longer defend or no longer want to.

I mean, there's several recent GD threads if you don't think thats fair or whatever, and want the fundamental designs of the blockade game changed, but it is what it is right now and whining about being blockaded because some of you don't think it's fair someone is "stealing" your pixel art or whatever is just so ridiculous.
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Amatoria

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They aren't interested in art one bit and have no interest in actually purchasing the art.

Mostly I find an assumption like that preposterous. Generally the only reason someone doesn't like you is precisely that you're hogging what they REALLY DO want as well: said art or island. If you didn't there wouldn't be a conflict in the first place. Your paths in life would probably not even have crossed.
Additionally - if this assumption was correct, it would mean they have to do something that isn't fun for them and that they don't enjoy themselves (cause they don't even like or want art, right?) weekend after weekend after weekend. Sound familiar? Pots and kettles to me - you're all black.

To take this back to blockades - if you want to hold an island, you have to accept the fact that others dictate your blockade frequency and intensity. Just like it was the other way around before YOU took that island. It's attack or defend, you can't be both at the same time.
You want to keep your island - you know the consquences. You place your priority to stay island owners above going out with your friends and family. You made the same choice every weekend again? It's still YOUR decision. If you think you chose badly - let it go and retrace your steps. The defender does not have to turn up. Let the island go and come back for it when it's fun again. Letting go of something does not reduce your selfworth, deminish your personality or abilities and previous successes.

To be sure this is one of the hardest realizations in life: to notice where good values like tenacity and endurance and a "never give up" attitude become harmful to yourself and your life (or game experience). Instead of being glorious and admired heros you turn into pathetic sad cases who just don't get what's really important. It's a slim line and we've all seen people walk the other side of it, both here and in glossy news rags.
No one but yourself ever forces you to cross that line. It's your priority set, your choices, your life.
Good for you if you saw you passed the line and made the right choice for yourself now.

For your yoghurt analogy: You weren't being force fed yoghurt. You were desperately holding on to the spoon shoveling it in your own face simply because you didn't want "them" to have the spoon. Or maybe your very own idea that being the one who can eat the most yoghurt for the longest would be the ultimate win?

I am not a great believer in the idea that a game needs to code something specially so people who have a mindset to be childish or irresponsible with their own lives rather than show mature and reflected behaviour can be accomodated. [And this is meant as a general statment, not personally directed towards members of CC!]
Consequently certain alterations OOO have made to the game previously have not improved it in my view either although I fully understand that they are running a business and need to target their product to a certain audience and make it attractive to them in hopes of growth and profit.

The far bigger problem to artrition that I see is: once you let go of islands and blockades are just for fun - what's your end game? What makes you that most outstanding flag, and what is your next challenge? If the challenge of fighting a 10 island drop kinda loses it's kick, where's the next kick at? What will keep you coming back? Or even simply - what would make you feel better about letting your islands go BEFORE you hit that burned-out-with-blockades feeling?
I'd rather see the game open up more on the top to give top players more challenges and not stick them in a nowhere-to-go-but-hang-on place, than restrict what we have even more with more rules or code just to coddle the players.
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NickScorpio

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Ain't it just lovely that we have so many closet psychologists making clinical diagnosis on the basis of a few words on the internet. I hope y'all don't break your own arms patting yourself on the back for how well-adjusted you've remained in the midst of such frothing lunacy.

Maybe, just maybe, the inability to reply with substantive points on the subject at hand says everything that needs to be said about whether Cleaver's words are still applicable.

I was under the impression that blockading is a game of skill. I guess the wanna be shrinks posting here think we ought to make it more like the Special Olympics, where everyone is a winner.
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cmdrzoom

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Generally the only reason someone doesn't like you is precisely that you're hogging what they REALLY DO want as well: said art or island. If you didn't there wouldn't be a conflict in the first place.

Actually, sometimes people dislike others for entirely different reasons, and smashing/defacing/depriving the other of the enjoyment of _____ is just the most convenient means available of making them unhappy. That's the real goal; the island or whatever is just a means to that end. It's what happens to be "within reach."
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[Feb 9, 2010 8:40:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Desirsar

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Holding an island requires that you are ready to defend every week.

Now here's a question:
Do people still believe that this is a reasonable requirement in today's "more casual" YPP game design?

We no longer expect them to sit through an entire pillage (potentially hours long) in order to receive/secure their share of the booty.
We no longer require them to win seven rounds out of twelve.
But we do still, apparently, expect them to either give up the island or their weekend(s).


Would the whole situation be fixed, then, if blockades were instead limited to once every two weeks (or longer?) and lift all restrictions on tactics?
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Talisker

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Would the whole situation be fixed, then, if blockades were instead limited to once every two weeks (or longer?) and lift all restrictions on tactics?


You know, as soon as there's a "1 blockade per X Time" restriction, flags will have their islands "blockaded" by a friendly flag, thus restricting unfriendly blockades.
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Leif
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I can't respond because I do not understand what the hell you are talking about. Sorry.

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Timwiles

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Do people not read? Is Hank the only one understanding what I said?

 
The point isn't about being blockaded weekend after weekend. Blockades are awesome, and island holders should be prepared to cade and if they don't want to take the time and effort, they shouldn't be holding an island. But this case is so fundamentally different because one flag was blockading purely to waste another's resources.


Yes, don't hold an island if you don't love cades. Don't complain if you get caded. This is entirely different from what happened from a stand point of attrition though. Cading purely to waste resources (just like bidding just to drive the price up to make the art collector broke) to me is attrition. This shouldn't be confused with normal competitive cades week after week with the desire to win the island and have a great fight. That seems entirely different then non stop paywars to make someone broke...
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Duende- Malachite, Hunter

Shortntarty tells ye, "my left boob has got a better shot than she does at getting famous
[Feb 9, 2010 10:21:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Talisker

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Do people not read? Is Hank the only one understanding what I said?


Did you not read the first page? It was pretty well hashed out that the precedent is against attrition of will, not resources.
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I can't respond because I do not understand what the hell you are talking about. Sorry.

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Timwiles

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Do people not read? Is Hank the only one understanding what I said?


Did you not read the first page? It was pretty well hashed out that the precedent is against attrition of will, not resources.


Obviously yes.
 
After a time, while you still have the resources to buy art, you start to lose excitement in your work and the purchases you make. You wish the other person would not be allowed to bid on the art any more, because they don't collect and don't know anything about it. While you still win your auctions every week and restore your paintings, you take no enjoyment any more out of it, and your passion has been ruined by someone who's only goal was to do just that.

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Duende- Malachite, Hunter

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Do people not read? Is Hank the only one understanding what I said?


Did you not read the first page? It was pretty well hashed out that the precedent is against attrition of will, not resources.

yes but once their resources are removed their will sorta goes with them
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Partially retired and completely stupid.
[Feb 9, 2010 10:44:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Timwiles

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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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Do people not read? Is Hank the only one understanding what I said?


Did you not read the first page? It was pretty well hashed out that the precedent is against attrition of will, not resources.

yes but once their resources are removed their will sorta goes with them

This
I'm sorry, I didn't think that I had to make the correlation that endless cades to drain resources drains the will to do what you love to do. I thought I implied this enough times in my example.
/e shrugs
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Duende- Malachite, Hunter

Shortntarty tells ye, "my left boob has got a better shot than she does at getting famous
[Feb 9, 2010 10:50:13 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
NickScorpio

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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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Do people not read? Is Hank the only one understanding what I said?


Did you not read the first page? It was pretty well hashed out that the precedent is against attrition of will, not resources.


And that is precisely what happened to us during those "blockades". Our will to continue was diminished because the fun was just not there to continue with such lopsided "blockades". Cleaver hit on precisely what did happen.

Frankly, the distinction between the two types of attrition are only in the eyes of the beholder, IMO. In this particular case, one side was dumb enough to state their intentions on the forums but I can't imagine many would make that mistake if they use this tactic. If you can figure out a way to divine what is in the hearts and minds of people through a computer screen, more power to you. I don't see how that's possible. So I don't see the significance in the distinction you're making.
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Hankscorpio
[Feb 9, 2010 10:53:18 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Timwiles

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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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Thanks Hank, you hit it on the head. I'm not in CC and don't play on Hunter, but I have thoroughly read through this thread, knew about what was going on as it happened, and just now decided to comment. It amazes me that people keep arguing the same things over and over without actually addressing the problem at hand. Thats what the analogy was for, and though people can't seem to get it, I think it pretty much accurately states what happened here.
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Duende- Malachite, Hunter

Shortntarty tells ye, "my left boob has got a better shot than she does at getting famous
[Feb 9, 2010 11:11:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
sweetnessc

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So make it sinking and destroy all their resources. Work your connections and make every flag pressure its people not to job for them. Have you and your allies and your friends hunt down every member of every flag that does job for them. Get your allies to circle the wagons and trade off weeks to defend for you. Retaliate and make their piratey lives hell (within the TOS, of course). Play the goddamned political game already.

Don't come crying to the forums and begging for your island trinket to be made untradeable because *you* were the one who won it first. Defending against all fame-qualified comers is part and parcel of owning an island, whether or not they're blockading you to own the island forever or to draw down your resources or just for the hell of it.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
[Feb 9, 2010 11:39:41 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
BobJanova

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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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What you seem to be saying is that people can only attack your islands in ways which are fun to you. That doesn't really make sense when islands are so important in the game, so limited and so high value. If you don't have the straight up strength (ships/PoE/connections) to win a single blockade, you have to be allowed to try to wear the other side's resources down, otherwise there is simply no way to beat a bigger flag (and the island income means that they get bigger faster than you do).

If defending isn't fun, then stop doing it.
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Bobjanova on Viridian and Malachite
Shops and stalls with fair and profitable wages for all: Jubilee, Napi, Chelydra
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[Feb 9, 2010 11:49:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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