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treepirate88

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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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Analogy that came to mind was comparing to a WWII based game. Most games have you starting at August 1939. At start up, your only a breath away from playing boomy.

YPP starts you somewhere around 1927 - Life is good for a few moments, but the great depression of starting up a new flag, getting people to join from scratch hits hard. From there, you spend quite some time going through the slow process of going through the military buildup until you have a war fleet and a crew itching to play boomy...


Exactomundo
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[Jan 29, 2010 5:05:29 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
123Jackpot

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The problem that I have run into with this "rule" is that OOO themselves don't know what the limit is. They have no bar which to measure these cases, so instead they try to judge each case on a case by case basis, based on people's intent. That's a slippery slope. It is no wonder none of us have a clear understanding of what OOO deems as acceptable behavior, OOO doesn't have a clear understanding either.

 
Yes, but what's the alternative? As we saw the last (or at least most memorable previous) time this came up, drawing a line in the sand just encourages a certain sort of player to step right up to it and/or try to find a way around it without going "over" it.


My request when I was petitioning attrition was simply 3 weeks on one week off. I don't think it's reasonable to require players to blockade every single weekend to hold an island. It would close the loop hole of attrition without having to judge people's intent.
 
udge each case on a case by case basis, based on people's intent. That's a slippery slope.

 
Sometimes, it's not about where the limit is, it's about the intent. And no, intent is not a slippery slope. At least not slippery enough to fall over.

It is impossible to know what is in the mind of others or what their intent is unless they directly state it. While you may trust the judgement of every single OM that has been and will be employed by three rings, I do not.
[Jan 30, 2010 4:50:01 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
BehindCurtai

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It is strange to see constant complaints about both "blockades are too expensive!" and "islands don't give enough rewards!". These complaints are contradictory. If islands really didn't give enough reward, people wouldn't be willing to sink millions into taking them, instead there would be complaints about war chests being too expensive.


How about this: I like strategy board games. I like the idea of a team game. I'd like to see if I can manage to direct a fleet of ships where I don't have control over the individual pieces, just influence over their pilots.

As a game, that's actually attractive. It has nothing to do with the islands. It is way too expensive of a game to play.
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mads0001

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Essentially, when you have a couple of flags, let's say cc and btv on hunter as two "random" examples, I can promise that one side will lose the will to keep defending before they ran out of funds. Isn't that attrition?

There comes a point where you can make a fun thing into a chore. Look at flotillas for example. Yeah they're fun every once in a while, but who really wants to do it every week for fear of annoying consequence?

Same goes for blockades, I enjoy them, I don't want to devote every Saturday night from here until doomsday to navving them though. I have other interests to follow.
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[Feb 2, 2010 3:26:57 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
rhandom

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Silly people.

The answer is to increase the rewards for *taking* an island, and give good rewards for *defending* an island, but have the rewards for holding an island be mediocre at best.

You want both sides to have some reason to want the fight, but nobody to be out too much to play again if they lose.

There is nothing preventing chess Grand Masters from meeting after the tournament for a friendly game down at the pub. Their ability to play chess is undiminished by the epic struggle just fought.

This is pretty much the opposite of the blockade game, and since it is set up such that attrition is an essential tactic to defeat many established island holders, it is obvious that wars of attrition must be played.

The important thing is that they target in-game resources rather than RL resources.
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[Feb 2, 2010 6:33:22 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
redwinej

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Essentially, when you have a couple of flags, let's say cc and btv on hunter as two "random" examples, I can promise that one side will lose the will to keep defending before they ran out of funds. Isn't that attrition?

There comes a point where you can make a fun thing into a chore. Look at flotillas for example. Yeah they're fun every once in a while, but who really wants to do it every week for fear of annoying consequence?

Same goes for blockades, I enjoy them, I don't want to devote every Saturday night from here until doomsday to navving them though. I have other interests to follow.

I am and was against what BTV did but yours is not a good argument. Holding an island requires that you are ready to defend every week. If you dont want to have to defend every week there is a simple solution, don't govern or hold an island. You can still blockade and then give the island away immediately.

Lets spin this a little differently, what if instead of it being BTV every weekend it was another flag in their alliance and was being funded by Cairna. Say they had 4 flags(just example) and each week it was a different flag would this be better, worse or the same as it just being BTV. Then say after the initial 8 that BTV did say random unaffiliated flag dropped because they wanted fun. Should they not get to because now CC is tired and has no will thanks to BTV.

Once again i am not saying what BTV was right, in fact while i liked the kades and i was a member of CC at that time i did think they were doing something that if it was not against the rules it should have been. All i am trying to point out is the flaws "of we dont want to have to kade every week."
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[Feb 2, 2010 6:53:45 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
sweetnessc

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Same goes for blockades, I enjoy them, I don't want to devote every Saturday night from here until doomsday to navving them though. I have other interests to follow.


Then let the island go, and come back when you're up for another round of defences.
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[Feb 2, 2010 7:59:47 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Silly people.

The answer is to increase the rewards for *taking* an island, and give good rewards for *defending* an island, but have the rewards for holding an island be mediocre at best.

You want both sides to have some reason to want the fight, but nobody to be out too much to play again if they lose.

This actually sums up a lot of the design goals I had for my recently proposed Rethinking jobber pay and the war chest GD proposal.

Right now, flags are wagering half off the war chest on taking/defending an island. That is so tiny compared to jobber pay that it isn't even funny. By tying the jobber pay and war chest amounts together and giving the excess jobber pay to the winner, a successful defense of an island could cost much less, and a successful attack would also cost much less. For unsuccessful attacks/defenses, locking in the jobber pay before the blockade limits your costs. Right now, pay wars can escalate beyond what people really want due to the high pressure, time sensitive situation making the Irrational escalation much worse.

Attackers would know from the start whether they are in the ball park in terms of cost and if they aren't, they don't lose a huge amount, far less than your typical one-round-and-give-up blockade.
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cmdrzoom

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Holding an island requires that you are ready to defend every week.

Now here's a question:
Do people still believe that this is a reasonable requirement in today's "more casual" YPP game design?

We no longer expect them to sit through an entire pillage (potentially hours long) in order to receive/secure their share of the booty.
We no longer require them to win seven rounds out of twelve.
But we do still, apparently, expect them to either give up the island or their weekend(s).
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[Feb 3, 2010 9:38:44 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
warp11

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Same goes for blockades, I enjoy them, I don't want to devote every Saturday night from here until doomsday to navving them though. I have other interests to follow.

Now the solution of most of the upper posts here is simple.
Cades every weekend would attract interest from new people to learn, new people learning would in the end become old people knowing. And if you have a wide range of skilled people as your blockade staff, you can take a week off for a night out with the lads or god knows whatnot, as i said, the solution is simple.
As long as you train new blockadestaff, you won't have to be there every time unless you dont want to.
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[Feb 3, 2010 10:23:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jutecloth

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I don't know if that is a solution. Having inexperienced people mixed into a blockade team will increase costs in a sinker and increase the chance of losing - 'wasting' everything. You could pass on the sinker, but you'll get attacked more. The cost of losing is simply too high for minded defenders, at least for Large islands: the attacker can make a joke of months of stewardship in a week. If flags were not able to have a long-term effect for a short-term stay, training up players would be more persuasive a solution.

Pay wars might come about from irrational escalation but they can be justified rationally as an investment in deterrence; in the cost of the pay in its own right and by the effect it has on ship-loss ratios. If poorer flags know that you'll pay whatever it takes to sink their whole fleet, they don't bother attacking at all and you can save PoE for bigger but rarer blockades. If they know you won't, you'll be ground down by them before someone who will comes to finish you off.

This is the problem with appeals to dominant alliances better nature. If they let people blockade them for buttons, relatively speaking, they'll be worn down and left more vulnerable to kitchen-sink attacks. Additionally, if everyone started attacking everyone else, the proper strategy if you want an island is to let them wear each other down before storming in with everything you've hoarded.

Peglegpaul is right that you can get very good material attrition by targeting ships over points, but like I said, it relies on your opponent focusing on points more than he needs to or lacking experienced navigators. The other problem is that it's a model for a palace rather than a peasant revolt; it's not a very viable option for those beginning to blockade.

Look at the attrition problem another way: without attrition of player time by constant weak attacks, alliances are able to field their best squad for every blockade. Combine this with their advantage of numbers and accumulated resources and then the decision on whether or not these advantages are multiplied (by sinking) and you end up with very few blockades and very few new blockaders. The absence of many military logistic problems makes large alliances shutting down this area of gameplay inevitable. People keep bringing up politics as if it'd be good if it decided things, but the politics runs on military factors that overwhelmingly favor the group of players who happened to form a group first.

- There should be best-of-three blockades so people can schedule more easily and foregone conclusions aren't dragged out.
- Ship entry/exit rules should match those in event blockades to prevent oceanside advantages dragging out foregone conclusions or deciding a blockade.
- Attackers should be able to attack with a guarantee that the blockade will be non-sinking. There should be an extra fee for this, scaling by island size and importance and frequency of use at a particular island. This will prevent blockading slowing down to nothing as alliances coalesce.
- There should be no new shoppe freeholds. Whatever about existing shoppes, don't make the possibility of new freeholds something that influences blockades.
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[Feb 3, 2010 12:11:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
mads0001

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Red, I almost agree, but isn't that just saying "it's ok to drop and drop until the other side loses the will to keep playing" which is kind of where the argument lies.

As zoom said, the game is supposedly "more casual" and yet this kind of commitment is expected? That isn't all too casual to me... As an aside, being in the uk, a 12 or 1pm drop wipes out my Saturday night. Less inconvenient to the Americans I know, but it's kind of frustrating.

I don't have a problem with people blockading repeatedly, but there is a point where you will win through having more people with more resolve than through skill. Which I thought was what people were against frankly. Winning because the other guys don't want to play anymore is boring.
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[Feb 3, 2010 3:29:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
NickScorpio

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Taking a breather doesn't necessarily help from being weary of a lopsided fight. I missed #s 3-4 at Armstrong while on a family vacation. I had a great time and barely paid any attention to PP. When I got back, falling back into that same old rut was very difficult. Logging into the game became a more like a job than recreation. I know I wasn't the only one thinking that. When someone linked me with Cleaver's post, I thought he was perfectly describing exactly what was happening.

I don't particularly care for playing lopsided games. It happens from time to time and that's ok. But if all the games are like that, I'm not sticking around. I just don't think it's right to lose an island to someone because you got tired of beating up on them week after week.
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IantheKorean

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I guess I don't understand why people who are no longer interested in blockades continue to have an interest in holding islands
[Feb 3, 2010 5:02:48 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
123Jackpot

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I guess I don't understand why people who are no longer interested in blockades continue to have an interest in holding islands

There is a difference between blockades and a non stop grief a-thon. For instance I like yogurt, that doesn't mean I would like to be strapped to a chair and forced fed yogurt for 3 months.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by 123Jackpot at Feb 3, 2010 5:42:56 PM]
[Feb 3, 2010 5:42:26 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
IantheKorean

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I guess I don't understand why people who are no longer interested in blockades continue to have an interest in holding islands

There is a difference between blockades and a non stop grief a-thon. For instance I like yogurt, that doesn't mean I would like to be strapped to a chair and forced fed yogurt for 3 months.


Except you aren't strapped to an island?
[Feb 3, 2010 6:08:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
redwinej

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Red, I almost agree, but isn't that just saying "it's ok to drop and drop until the other side loses the will to keep playing" which is kind of where the argument lies.

As zoom said, the game is supposedly "more casual" and yet this kind of commitment is expected? That isn't all too casual to me... As an aside, being in the uk, a 12 or 1pm drop wipes out my Saturday night. Less inconvenient to the Americans I know, but it's kind of frustrating.

I don't have a problem with people blockading repeatedly, but there is a point where you will win through having more people with more resolve than through skill. Which I thought was what people were against frankly. Winning because the other guys don't want to play anymore is boring.

I totally agree i was not at every armstrong kade either do to some work constraints and it did get to where my family was tired of seeing me stare at the computer and talk on vent. Her is my point. This would be very hard to regulate. As i said if Cairna was truly afraid of the ban stick or was told to stop for a week it would have been easy for him to tell random flag that has no alliance with him, hey i will give you 50k if you let me run a kade from your flag. Then how do you distinguish from that and just random flag b that sees that BTV is on the side lines do to OM intervention and says hey i want some fun here i think they are ripe for the pickings. Should they be forced to wait only because CC just went through marathon kade for two months straight.

Truth is i have seen flags do this(scenario 1) and helped. I started my blockade career xo'ing for some high profile nav'ers and from time to time i would be told use an unknown alt for this kade i dont want the other side to know we have a hand in this. Now given this wasn't because we wanted to blockade multiple times it was more politically related but it does show that it is easy to do. For all of you out there that think you would be able to find out the alts main, it can be done. I guarantee that i have alts in crews that if they knew it was me i would probably get booted from the crew and i know i am not the only one.

Lastly like i said what happened made the game less fun overall. I just dont see how this could be fixed without leaving it wide open for exploits or without effecting flags that are not involved with said harassment.
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[Feb 3, 2010 7:27:59 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
123Jackpot

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I guess I don't understand why people who are no longer interested in blockades continue to have an interest in holding islands

There is a difference between blockades and a non stop grief a-thon. For instance I like yogurt, that doesn't mean I would like to be strapped to a chair and forced fed yogurt for 3 months.


Except you aren't strapped to an island?


Way to completely miss the point.
Just because you don't want to have a blockade against the same people that keep losing to you week in and week out doesn't mean you don't like blockades. It means you're sick of going through the motions because someone who is trying to suck all the fun out of the game actually succeeded. I didn't like that. But I love blockades.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by 123Jackpot at Feb 3, 2010 7:36:56 PM]
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IantheKorean

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I guess I don't understand why people who are no longer interested in blockades continue to have an interest in holding islands

There is a difference between blockades and a non stop grief a-thon. For instance I like yogurt, that doesn't mean I would like to be strapped to a chair and forced fed yogurt for 3 months.


Except you aren't strapped to an island?


Way to completely miss the point.
Just because you don't want to have a blockade against the same people that keep losing to you week in and week out doesn't mean you don't like blockades. It means you're sick of going through the motions because someone who is trying to suck all the fun out of the game actually succeeded. I didn't like that. But I love blockades.


But you don't even need to hold an island to hold a blockade. Your point makes no sense. If you don't hold an island, then you are never going to be forced to blockade the same person week in and week out. You're free to choose your target; and best of all free to choose the most convenient time. I don't understand why flags that do like blockading would want to hold islands in the first place, beyond making themselves a target.
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NickScorpio

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Your point makes no sense.


Fortunately for us, whether it makes sense to you is not a requirement, nor is that a requirement to acceptance. I don't understand someone that takes a thrill from beating the snot out of an overmatched opponent ad naseum but I accept there are those that do.

As I said, Cleaver's point about our will to fight being diminished was perfectly applicable to the flag's experience during those weeks that produced a total round shut out and cumulative sink count of north of 10-1. The clarifications' that Leif found about "blockades that are fun, fair and challenging" most definitely did not apply here either. There was absolutely no challenge whatsoever. Well, that's not entirely true. It was a challenge to find motivation to log in.

Perhaps, Cleaver's words from 2006 (?) are no longer applicable to the way the game is played or intended by OOO. But they were absolutely perfectly descriptive of the cumulative effect of that series of blockades for us. Whether you can make sense of it or not.
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Hankscorpio
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by NickScorpio at Feb 4, 2010 5:18:07 AM]
[Feb 4, 2010 5:00:59 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
123Jackpot

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No I see what's he saying, he just went about it strangely, at least I think I do.
Holding an island isn't a good way to get caded.
I thought he was going with the age old; well if you like blockades you must like to continuously be caded 24/7 or else you're a liar, argument.
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NickScorpio

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No I see what's he saying, he just went about it strangely, at least I think I do.
Holding an island isn't a good way to get caded.
I thought he was going with the age old; well if you like blockades you must like to continuously be caded 24/7 or else you're a liar, argument.


Hmm, well, I thought so, too. I need to start adjusting back to normal people from Hunter Parley.


So yeah, uh, scratch that last :p
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Hankscorpio
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Jutecloth

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Would consecutive attacks be less enervating if the consequences of losing the island were less permanent?
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Bakunin wrote: 
When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called "the People's Stick".
Darksand wrote: 
[S]chadenfreude is a positive externality for some of us.

[Feb 5, 2010 9:28:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
123Jackpot

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Would consecutive attacks be less enervating if the consequences of losing the island were less permanent?

No, not for me or my flag at least. We, now in the process of retiring, have an undefeated record. That is as important to us as our islands I think.
For me personally it was more about being able to have a weekend free for friends, family and away from the computer life. Requiring island ownership to mean that you may have no free weekends ever is neither fun nor casual. A cade may last only a few hours, but if you have any clue what you're doing setting up a blockade should take days. Recouping so you can do it ad infinitum takes nearly all week.
When our flag was blockaded 7 or 8 weeks in a row, puzzle pirates became a full time job. Luckily most royals in my flag don't sleep and we were able to get it done, but I can say that it killed the game for us in a big way. And that OOO let it continue for so long, kill a lot of respect I have for them as a company. I would love to see a hard and fast rule about this so it doesn't happen to other people.
And for anyone 1/2 as competitive and/or stubborn as me, "just give up," isn't in our vocabulary.
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BehindCurtai

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Holding an island requires that you are ready to defend every week.

Now here's a question:
Do people still believe that this is a reasonable requirement in today's "more casual" YPP game design?

We no longer expect them to sit through an entire pillage (potentially hours long) in order to receive/secure their share of the booty.
We no longer require them to win seven rounds out of twelve.
But we do still, apparently, expect them to either give up the island or their weekend(s).


 
Requiring island ownership to mean that you may have no free weekends ever is neither fun nor casual.


Which gets back to "Let island owners choose their own time period". Maybe they'd rather have a different time zone. Maybe they can hire out the island defense to a mercenary crew that will join the flag for the blockade, and leave afterwards; that requires the flags to have different days. Etc.

Not enough? Alright, get back to Cleaver's "We need to redesign blockades".
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"We're trying to find the error bars on that number"

Dylan wrote: 
Why buy sham poo when real poo is so readily available

[Feb 5, 2010 3:56:33 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://StrictConstitution.BlogSpot.Com [Link]  Go to top 
Talisker

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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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For me personally it was more about being able to have a weekend free for friends, family and away from the computer life.


If Puzzle Pirates has become more important that friends or family, I think that's more of a personal issue.
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Leif
The Forums
Gunnermooch wrote: 
I can't respond because I do not understand what the hell you are talking about. Sorry.

Av by Ecastasy
[Feb 5, 2010 5:32:05 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
BobJanova

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Aye, that's why you should have multiple people able to deal with in game issues.
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Bobjanova on Viridian and Malachite
Shops and stalls with fair and profitable wages for all: Jubilee, Napi, Chelydra
Stripped/Barely Dressed (Malachite)
Phantasm/Reign of Chaos (Viridian)
[Feb 6, 2010 6:00:58 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
123Jackpot

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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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For me personally it was more about being able to have a weekend free for friends, family and away from the computer life.


If Puzzle Pirates has become more important that friends or family, I think that's more of a personal issue.

Yeah it was a personal problem; that another flag caused and three rings took 7 weeks to deal with. I'm well aware of the "tough barnacle" argument; it's complete BS. Bet you'd change your tune if it happened to you. Give up because the other person won't isn't how I like to lose.
[Feb 6, 2010 9:46:27 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
OdorOfFrodo

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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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For me personally it was more about being able to have a weekend free for friends, family and away from the computer life.


If Puzzle Pirates has become more important that friends or family, I think that's more of a personal issue.

Yeah it was a personal problem; that another flag caused and three rings took 7 weeks to deal with. I'm well aware of the "tough barnacle" argument; it's complete BS. Bet you'd change your tune if it happened to you. Give up because the other person won't isn't how I like to lose.

You, and only you, decided how important this game should be to you. If you decide that having an undefeated record is more important than having fun, that's your problem, not anyone else's.

Stupid modern world, where people make choices and expect everyone to simply accept them. It's everyone's game, not just yours.
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Talisker wrote: 
Obviously this calls for dressing up as Karl Marx.

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Snowpixie

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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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You, and only you, decided how important this game should be to you. If you decide that having an undefeated record is more important than having fun, that's your problem, not anyone else's.
THIS.

Now is anyone else seeing interesting contradictions in these 2 threads, or is it just me?
Take it back to Hunter parley, already.
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Imp, totally sane mermaid-siren of Meridian.
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