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MrSquiddy

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Non-Contending Flags Posting Job Offers: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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What if:

1) Independent flags could not post a better offer than any contending flag.
AND
2) Allied flags could not post a better offer than their contending ally.

Would that fix anything?

--Squiddy, Midnight
[Feb 13, 2010 6:26:26 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
vnork



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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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See, the thing is, I have no problem with more people causing mayhem on the blockade board, as long as they aren't abusing the game mechanics. To me, the more people on the blockade board, the better.

Well, Midnight could actually use the blockade mayhem. Sage is (was?) blockade mayhem personified. Sage is also by far the easiest dub ocean for an aspiring pirate to break into the blockade game, so we have fewer issues with having not enough people on the blockade board.

Genuine question here: Why do you think your attitude is prevalent on the sub oceans (and Viridian and Hunter to a lesser extent), and not on Sage?
 
Well, if the people who see it as abusive are strong enough, they *should* be able to leverage others into playing nice. If you make someone lose a few blockades and tell them why you're making them lose, they'll switch.

It wouldn't have been done as much if it were obviously abuse. Most political jobbers, including me, are willing to take less pay to help their friends, even if they aren't a fan of the practice. And this is hard for me to explain briefly, but Sage is just too politically diverse and concerned with balance for a coalition to occur over something like third parties. I look at Midnight's political map and have no idea how you guys could possibly function with so many interconnected alliances, so I suspect that there might be a lot of differences in our perspective of political ties (Sage, Midnight).
 
1) Independent flags could not post a better offer than any contending flag.
AND
2) Allied flags could not post a better offer than their contending ally.

Would that fix anything?

I'd fully endorse #2. The first one is a little trickier, because I know a lot of people will think that it would limit legitimate third parties too much.
[Feb 13, 2010 7:58:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Desirsar

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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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Reading a few side opinions and then NickScorpio's posts, I see the obvious answer.

Blockading repeatedly to drain the will to defend should be "against the spirit of the game."

Blockading repeatedly using hit and run tactics to deplete "physical" or fiscal (PoE) resources should be a valid tactic.

How do you tell the difference between the two? You have the level of log access of Three Rings and you review it closely, and maybe send a message to the attacking flag royalty...

Edit - Regarding third parties, would a change to require third parties to drop a full war chest equal to the original contender and then allowing them to win the island if they beat both the defenders and original contenders be a possible fix?
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What's the point of a signature if you can't use images?
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Desirsar at Feb 13, 2010 9:06:46 AM]
[Feb 13, 2010 8:59:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://incolor.inebraska.com/clu/index.htm    MantequillaRoja    Desirsar    2509183 [Link]  Go to top 
Culiford

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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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2) Allied flags could not post a better offer than their contending ally.

This one, definitely.

 
1) Independent flags could not post a better offer than any contending flag.

Then how would third party ships ever get jobbers? Most people would probably job with a contender if pay was even. They only job with third parties because pay is better.

 
Genuine question here: Why do you think your attitude is prevalent on the sub oceans (and Viridian and Hunter to a lesser extent), and not on Sage?

Can you ask this again please? I'm not quite getting what you're asking here.

 
I look at Midnight's political map and have no idea how you guys could possibly function with so many interconnected alliances, so I suspect that there might be a lot of differences in our perspective of political ties (Sage, Midnight).

I don't know how we function either :P Actually, I don't think we do function. Old dead flags have been allowed to hold onto islands, and old alliances make people defend them. I got forced to admiral for a flag whose governors log in once a month. I did it and tried to win because I like blockades, but I still don't like that I was part of trying to preserve something that's dead. Somehow, this doesn't seem like the right way to do things.
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Culliford on the Cerulean Ocean
Prince of Universe A
[Feb 13, 2010 12:50:51 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
DeepNine

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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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Vnork wrote: 
I look at Midnight's political map and have no idea how you guys could possibly function with so many interconnected alliances, so I suspect that there might be a lot of differences in our perspective of political ties (Sage, Midnight).

In a word, status quo -> upset -> status quo-> upset. Midnight's power is far more diffuse than the green oceans', and I imagine that the alliance map is an even poorer representation of the ocean's political climate than the green oceans' maps are of theirs. Throughout history, Midnight's power struggles have revolved around small groups unhappy about the current state of the game planting the seeds of change throughout other groups, grabbing hold in some manner or other, and establishing themselves as the new power first through changing the general way that people look at the game and then finally taking islands. The current vogue is that people who care more about owning islands than having fun don't deserve to hold any, which sometime in the last five years slowly replaced the "us island-owners have the God-given right to keep our goods under any circumstance even if we don't want to defend" that Hunter is going through now.
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Nine of Tyr's Own
Currently on loan to: Dies Irae
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by DeepNine at Feb 13, 2010 4:36:19 PM]
[Feb 13, 2010 3:55:05 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
rhandom

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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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Nine wrote: 
The current vogue is that people who care more about owning islands than having fun don't deserve to hold any, which sometime in the last five years slowly replaced the "us island-owners have the God-given right to keep our goods under any circumstance even if we don't want to defend" that Hunter is going through now.

Are ye sayin' it's "just a phase" that Hunter is going through?
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Hahvahd on Cerulean, Rhandy everywhere.

Once the pin is removed, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend.
[Feb 13, 2010 5:07:14 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
vnork



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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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Genuine question here: Why do you think your attitude is prevalent on the sub oceans (and Viridian and Hunter to a lesser extent), and not on Sage?

Can you ask this again please? I'm not quite getting what you're asking here.

From posting patterns in this thread and others, the vast majority of those from sub oceans share your general view of third parties (both allied and unaffiliated), while the vast majority of those from Sage have a much more jaded view of third parties. I'm just curious to what you attribute that difference in opinion.
 
slowly replaced the "us island-owners have the God-given right to keep our goods under any circumstance even if we don't want to defend" that Hunter is going through now.

That's pretty inflammatory so I'm not going to touch that one right now, except to say that the incident in question happened over a year ago, and Hunter is now in a time of serious island turnover. If things go well (*knock on wood*), it might well be worth your time, if you enjoy blockades, to go and check out some of the ones that should be happening there in upcoming weeks.
[Feb 13, 2010 5:23:44 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
NickScorpio

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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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1) Independent flags could not post a better offer than any contending flag.
AND
2) Allied flags could not post a better offer than their contending ally.

Would that fix anything?

I'd fully endorse #2. The first one is a little trickier, because I know a lot of people will think that it would limit legitimate third parties too much.


Has anyone on Sage tried addressing the 2nd example with the OMs on the basis that it's already a no-no for 1 flag to offer different pay in a multi-island drop? I'm not sure I see much of a difference between that and 2 allied flags offering different rates at 1 island. The contender is still drawing a direct benefit from people being paid differently for the same work.
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Hankscorpio
[Mar 31, 2010 7:47:37 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Talisker

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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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1) Independent flags could not post a better offer than any contending flag.
AND
2) Allied flags could not post a better offer than their contending ally.

Would that fix anything?

I'd fully endorse #2. The first one is a little trickier, because I know a lot of people will think that it would limit legitimate third parties too much.


Has anyone on Sage tried addressing the 2nd example with the OMs on the basis that it's already a no-no for 1 flag to offer different pay in a multi-island drop? I'm not sure I see much of a difference between that and 2 allied flags offering different rates at 1 island. The contender is still drawing a direct benefit from people being paid differently for the same work.


I thought the issue with "Same Flag, 2 pay rates" was that flags were jobbing people in at the higher rate, and then loading them onto boats in the lower paying blockade. I'm not sure that same issue carries over to allied flags.
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Leif
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I can't respond because I do not understand what the hell you are talking about. Sorry.

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[Mar 31, 2010 7:58:11 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
NickScorpio

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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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I thought the issue with "Same Flag, 2 pay rates" was that flags were jobbing people in at the higher rate, and then loading them onto boats in the lower paying blockade. I'm not sure that same issue carries over to allied flags.


You may very well be right. But there have been dozens of laws passed by convincing one judge that the law is already there.
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Hankscorpio
[Mar 31, 2010 10:54:28 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Quitex

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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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I thought the issue with "Same Flag, 2 pay rates" was that flags were jobbing people in at the higher rate, and then loading them onto boats in the lower paying blockade. I'm not sure that same issue carries over to allied flags.


You may very well be right. But there have been dozens of laws passed by convincing one judge that the law is already there.


The thing about an allied flag paying less is not something that can be consider an exploit--at the end the jobber decides who to job for. In a flag with the different wages for the blockade, the jobber has not much control to what ship they go, at the end, the jobber can decide just to leave.
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Quitex, everywhere, mainly Ice.
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Someone asked why Quitex would do this as a rogue. All I can say is, well, he's QUITEX! No one knows what he will do next, ESPECIALLY Quitex.

[Apr 13, 2010 12:39:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
larspcus2



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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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Okay, what if a flag decided to attrition by offering 15K/seg pay over numerous blockades in an attempt to wear down the opponent's poe reserves? What if they fielded significantly fewer boats than the other flag once the other flag matched the pay?
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Lar on Viridian
[Jun 24, 2010 8:44:09 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
TheRack

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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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Okay, what if a flag decided to attrition by offering 15K/seg pay over numerous blockades in an attempt to wear down the opponent's poe reserves? What if they fielded significantly fewer boats than the other flag once the other flag matched the pay?

Thats actually quite devious...

The answer is that if your in a pay war, and the opposition is only fielding 2 boats, you either field 2 slightly bigger or 3 boats.
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Cephalopod, on poker, wrote: 
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: it isn't rigged.

Period. End of story.

[Jun 25, 2010 8:11:19 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
larspcus2



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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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Okay, what if a flag decided to attrition by offering 15K/seg pay over numerous blockades in an attempt to wear down the opponent's poe reserves? What if they fielded significantly fewer boats than the other flag once the other flag matched the pay?

Thats actually quite devious...

The answer is that if your in a pay war, and the opposition is only fielding 2 boats, you either field 2 slightly bigger or 3 boats.


I understand how to counter it, and it's an interesting way to keep cades small =P, but even if the opposition is fielding 3 boats to your two, they're paying 1.5 times as much poe. With no paycap, you only need 66% of the opponents poe in order for the attrition to be successful.

In addition, with some clever tactics, the attackers can make it pretty difficult for the defenders to discover how many ships they are fielding. (Let's say that they job by going and asking flaggies and allies in /fo and /tells, and they tell people from the noticeboard "Sorry, we're not accepting jobbers at this time"). This means that the defenders have to come out in full, or at least medium force every cade. Heck, you could make the pay higher in the first seg to take advantage of this.


But, devious tactics aside, my question still stands: Would doing this be kosher under current rules and precedent?

Aside: In his blockade post, Cleaver said that some midnight flags have "limitless resources," but no resources are limitless without a paycap.
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Lar on Viridian
[Jun 25, 2010 9:42:28 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
sweetnessc

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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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There was no automated pay when Cleaver said that. And yes, as I understand it, that would be perfectly fine as an approach.

There is a maximum pay per segment that can be done automatically, so you'd have to do the rest manually, which'd likely mean the other side would only have to match you up to the automated maximum. I think it's 9,999 a segment but I'm not sure.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by sweetnessc at Jun 25, 2010 11:05:08 AM]
[Jun 25, 2010 11:01:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Strider399

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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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Aye, 9,999/segment is the maximum.

If I recall, the highest pay has reached on any ocean so far (during a real blockade) was 8.5k/segment on Sage.
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Sid on Obsidian

Striderrs everywhere else
[Jun 25, 2010 8:29:45 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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